AR301, ML300 GONE!

[Prism]

I'm sure that most of you know by now that Utah wildlife board axed the AR301 and ML300.

Kind of bummed about the ML300. Do any of you know if it will be an "over the counter" hunt next year? My brother drew this year and got a pretty good bull above East Canyon, and we never saw another hunter.

I'm glad that the AR301 is gone. As an archer I want more opportunities in Utah, and realize that we could give out A LOT more archery tags for elk in the state. But I think the AR301 had a lot of flaws.

It will be interesting to see what kind of permit numbers the DWR comes up with this spring-with the split tag percentages.

 

[BlackTimber]

Great! so were did my whimpy 3 ML300 points go?

 

[2_Point]

The Bad news is the ML300 is gone and your points are gone also.

The good news is you can now go buy an Any Bull ML tag over the counter. The ML tags will come out of the any-bull permit cap, which should be increased next year because the ML tags are not as successful. I like the idea, but it will put more ML hunters in the field.

I am also glad the AR301 is gone, it puts everyone on the same playing field and should allow future talk of more tags given on a harvest success rate.

 

[c3]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-15-03 AT 12:12PM (MST)[p]Sorry 2-point and Prism, I just feel like stirring the pot today, but why does everyone keep saying the AR301 was unfair?

It was available to everyone. Anyone could have applied for it and drawn all four years it was available. We CHOSE not to !

Most of us, myself included, CHOSE not to apply for it. We CHOSE to stick with our points in the draw in hopes that we would get a better hunt someday with those points.

We surely didn't think it was so unfair that we were willing to give up on the points game to apply for it. No, we all agreed that it was a hard hunt and a tough draw last year. We also agreed that it was not as good an option as sticking with the points nightmare.

The only reason people call it unfair is they didn't draw on the points hunts. "If I can't have it neither can you" is all you whiners are saying

Cheers,
Pete

 

[2_Point]

Ah Pete, talk about beating a dead horse..... OK I'll take your bait and try one last time to explain why -I- think AR301 was unfair.

It really wasn't about the points so much as it was about the fact that a guy could draw the hunt every year, never having to wait. I personally know 3 guys that drew the tag 3 years each. 2 of those 3 guys were on the 5 year waiting period because they had drawn LTD tags. All killed bulls. I don't care if a guy draws an LTD tag with no points, but if he does he has to Wait 5 more years before applying again.

AR301 also provided no management on a unit by unit basis. 300 guys could go to one unit and harvest too many animals and leave extra animals on the table in another unit. i.e. the Wasatch was hammered this year on AR301.

I know this whiner can't change your mind over the internet, but it sure was a good feeling to change the minds of the DWR and the Wildlife Board. It was also great to see the frustration and saddened expressions of you guys at the RAC and Board meetings, talk about a group of whiners.

Good luck on your draws next year Pete. Let's just go hunting with whatever we choose to hunt with.

Take Care

 

[Prism]

I'm going to leave "well enough alone," on this one.

I'm looking forward to putting in for the Wasatch archery or muzzleloader tag. What do you think the odds are going to be with 8 points?

 

[c3]

2-point, You just like to rub it in don't you. LOL!

Prism, I think the odds on the Wasatch with 8 points will be pretty good. Probably not this year but in the next two or three. Your points don't mean a thing until you are a max point holder putting in.

I believe in the 2002 draw there were over 300 people with 8 or more points at the time who put in for the Wasatch. Folks with 9 points this year were the ones holding the highest points and drawing. All it takes is 17 of those folks to put in for the archery and your in with the rest of the pool.

The muzzleloader draws are going to be a nightmare. They just added 6000 people to the points battle by getting rid of the ML300. Not many with 8 points though.

This could be a very interesting year for the draws. I think some units are going to have little if any applicants, while others are going to get slammed. Choose wisely and you could be in for a great hunt next year.

Cheers,
Pete

 

[2_Point]

Pete nice to see a good attitude from you now the dust has settled. haha I think you are right that some odds will be 1 of 1, while others will be much worse than last year.

Prism, The DWR Bios (Steve and Jim) have both told me that the Wasatch may loose permits this year because of the high AR301 take last year. Hopefully not, because I think there are still enough bulls on the unit to warrent the high permit numbers, but if numbers are reduced (after the application period) then draw odds will be worse. I would think you can draw an Archery tag with 8 points, while a ML tag would be tougher.

Good Luck Choosing

 

[c3]

2-point you do your best to wind me up that's for sure.

The number of bulls harvested on the Wasatch Mtns unit was less than 20 bulls. If you question the numbers, please contact Clint at the UBA. He will be happy to give the exact numbers for each unit. They should be published on the UBA site when all the returns are completed. At least as many as can be found.

I'm sure Clint would be happy to use your services finding the 100 or so folks who haven't been reached yet about their AR301 surveys. If you actually can get ahold of these folks, you will find that the harvest rate will be sub 20% like it has been in previous years.

I will suggest that the number of permits on Wasatch Mtn's will go up to 150 or 175 next year, if the division actually goes ahead with the origional plan of 5-6 year old age class objective. They are claiming that is what they plan to do, but we will have to see.

Cheers,
Pete

 

[2_Point]

Hey Pete, don't we have anything better to do than check MM 2 or 3 times on a Sunday. I guess I don't since it gets dark at 5:30pm.

I was going on Jim Karpowitz's (sp?) numbers of 181 hunters and 58 dead bulls and 2 dead cows on the AR301 off the Wasatch. I know Clint had somewhere around 20 dead bulls surveyed off the Wasatch and hadn't contacted everyone yet. Oh well, definatley water under the bridge.

I hope they do open up these units and kill some of these darned elk. I also wish they'd make all the units 5-6 year old age class. I don't understand managing units for 7-8 year old bulls only to give a few guys the chance to shoot a 400 class bull while many more bulls die of old age. Ironic how the State record last year came off a 5-6 yr unit. These 5-6 yr units all have the opportunity to shoot 380+ bulls.

Any luck on the Extended this year?? I am headed up this week, not sure why, but we'll see how it goes.

Have a Good One-

 

[c3]

Those are typical of Jim's numbers. It was 27 elk out of 188 surveys completed in total for the AR301, if I'm not mistaken. Jim has conveniently put some numbers together.

If you extrapolate out the the harvest for all 300 hunters you would see about 58 elk or so, but it's not 58 out of the 181 he was refering to. It is surely not all on the Wasatch either.

Previous years AR301 surveys show that the mail in surveys come from the successful hunters. As you get more and more of the stragglers in the harvest rate comes way down. Naturally those that have harvested love to tell people about it. Those that didn't do so well tend not to answer.

Do you have an archery elk permit? I have been into the elk quite a few times this year on the front. I've been drawn on bulls three times and just couldn't get the job done. I even had a spike at 12 yards last week. He busted and ran as I drew on him at 18 yards or so.

Let me know if you want to go after them.

Cheers,
Pete

 

[DonV]

What oppurtunites will there be for bow hunters now? IMO the AR301 was more then fair, and, quite frankily a very tough tag from any angle. Bad odds of success, tough to draw, do not get any points to name a few.

 

[c3]

DonV:

All the LE elk units will have resident archery only and muzzleloader only permits next year.

All the bigger units should have enough archery permits to allow NR permits. I think it is state law that 10% of the permits go to NR. This is where there are at least 10 archery permits or more.

Last year with the AR301 there were 30 NR archery permits. This year you might be lucky to see 10 because they all have to be split up between units and most units won't have more than 10 archery only permits.

Cheers,
Pete

 

[PleaseDear]

Prism/2-point, thanks for being so nice about the loss of these 2 hunts. They have been our 2 favorite hunts to apply for while on the waiting periods ect.
Nice N. Mex bull in the mag. Prism.
2-point yea-nea on the Colo. buck??

Did they axe the Auxillary Permit units too??

 

[Deerlove]

Search and Rescue is going to have a hay day with 5 to 7 thousand muzzy elk hunters out is the mtns with two feet of snow. LOL

 

[2_Point]

Pete, I am going after the deer. I went up this morning and saw a couple nice mature bucks, but nothing I wanted.

PleaseDear- No problem on us being so nice to you guys after you lost your favorite hunts "While on waiting periods". You are a good guy, taking it so well. I shot a decent buck in CO, but it was not what I expected. Too many deer on WAY too much private land. The deer were starting to rut and the first day I passed on a 26" 175 class 4x5. Big mistake as that was the biggest deer I saw on public land. Oh well, time to start building points again.