Utah Elk (Quality vs. Opportunity)

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Ok, for those of you who hope to hunt elk, I have questions. Give me your thoughts.

Quality vs. Opportunity

Currently, the state of Utah manages limited entry elk hunting for ulitmate quality, with most units managed for 5-6 & 7-8 year old bulls. And currently, rifle hunts are managed for a 100% success rate, meaning fewer tags are available to maintain the age class and quality.
The way it is structured now, it's going to take most people 20 or so years to draw a premium tag. However, when they do draw, there should be plenty of big bulls available in the unit.

My questions are,

1 - How many people would be willing to give up some of that quality for more opportunity, maybe hunts that take place in Nov. rather than during the rut in Sept.? (Nov. hunts would have a lower success rate, therefore more tags would be available)

2 - Would an age class reduction satisfy you? That is, if units were managed for a slightly lower age class bull, more tags could be issue, therefore more opportunity.

This is an issue that will be addressed soon by the DWR. Input is currently being gathered.
What are your thoughts?

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
I personally would like more opportunity than quality.It is in my opinion sick that most hunters will have to wait that long to have a chance to hunt for a nice bull on a limited entry unit wich in most cases is the unit the hunter always hunts for spikes on. I think you can't manage hunts to have 100% success, the reason most people hunt is that great challenge of hunting. Not everybody goes out every year after year and shoots a big buck or bull we all have to work hard in our efforts to be successful.I think that opportunitieslike hunts taking place pre rut and post rut for elk wouldn't hurt the elk one bit, as long as it was managed wisely. not everybody holds out for that monster bull lots of guys shoot raghorns. they could hold hunts on those units for younger bulls 3-4 point hunts wouldn't hurt, hunters should be ethical enough to tell between a 6 point and a four point (hopefully) opportunity definatley is my opinion! I have 7 points and am being patient or foolish?
 
I am for quality, and I only have 2 points in UT, so it will be a long wait. There are few places left where you can hunt BIG bulls in the rut with any weapon. Thse places are special, and I hope we don't lose the few that are out there.

Good Hunting...Tim Herald
www.grandslamhunts.com
 
I will go with opportunity. The odds of drawing a elk tag are terrible. The way they are now they are a once in a lifetime permit. The rifle hunt needs to be moved out of the rut so more permits can be issued. I also would like to see the age structure of units change I beleive some big bulls are dying of old age on some units. Also primitive weapons need to become more used as a tool to give people opportunity. I feel sorry for the kids or someone just starting out in the bonus point game for elk. They could go 20 years and never see an elk tag.

Mark
 
hogg

WITH SEVEN POINT'S,HANG IN THERE,QUALITY BEATS QUANTITY ANY DAY,ANY YEAR!!!

WHY WOULD ANYBODY WASTE POINTS ON A RAGHORN???

IF YOU'RE SATISFIED WITH A RAGHORN BULL,FOR GOD'S SAKES HUNT AN OPEN AREA UNIT AND HARVEST ONE!!!

A FEW QUESTIONS I HAVE???

WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO START ISSUING MORE TAG'S IN THESE(SOON TO BE LE PREMIUM HIGH $$$ ELK UNITS???)

THEY (LE UNITS) ARE TOP QUALITY HUNTS AND WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO LOWER THE AGE CLASS OF THE BULLS IN THESE UNITS???

THE ONLY CHANCE WE HAVE OF TAKING TROPHY BULLS IN UTAH IS TO MANAGE THE UNITS WE HAVE NOW FOR QUALITY BULLS,QUALITY HUNTING,NOT TO PUT MORE MONEY INTO THE HANDS OF THE UDWR BY RAISING TAG NUMBERS AND TAG FEE'S OR LETTING EVERYBODY AND THEIR DOG HUNT IT OUT TO DECIMATION!!!

REMEMBER THIS:WHAT HAS TAKEN ALOT OF YEARS TO ACCOMPLISH CAN BE WIPED CLEAR OUT REAL QUICK WITH A LITTLE $GREED$ IN MIND!!!

DOES ANYBODY REMEMBER WHAT HAPPENED TO THE MULE DEER HERD IN UTAH???(DON'T THINK FOR A SECOND THE SAME THING CAN'T HAPPEN TO THE ELK HERD!!!)

THE ELK HERD ON THE SOUTH SLOPE HAS HAD THE #### KNOCKED OUT OF IT THANKS TO SOME MISMANAGEMENT,LETS JUST HUNT EM YEAR AROUND,IF YOU SEE ONE SHOOT IT,WHAT COULD OF BEEN SOME OF THE BEST HUNTING IN THE STATE IS NOW AN OVER RATED,OVER HUNTED,AND POOR MANAGED UNIT,BUT PEOPLE STILL FLOCK IN BY THE THOUSANDS TO HUNT IT,GO FIGURE???

EASY ARITHMATIC AND I'M NO BIOLOGIST!!!

YOU WANT QUALITY BIG BULL HUNTING???YOU MUST HAVE LE UNITS WITH VERY FEW TAGS,QUALITY MANAGEMENT,LET THE BULLS REACH MATURITY,(AND I DON'T MEAN 4-5 YEARS OLD)IT MUST BE BOTHERING CERTAIN PEOPLE THAT WE MIGHT HAVE A FEW BULL'S DIEING OF OLD AGE,LET THEM GROW,LET THEM REACH AGE 8-9,SOME WILL REGRESS,YOU SEE A BULL THAT HAS REGRESSED,DON'T PI$$ AND MOAN ABOUT IT,MOVE ON,AT LEAST YOU'LL KNOW YOU'RE HUNTING AN AREA WHERE THERE'S A CHANCE OF TAKING A TROPHY,REMEMBER JUST BECAUSE THERE ARE UNITS WITH OLDER BULL'S IN THEM DOESN'T MEAN WE HAVE TO START OVER HUNTING THE UNIT!!!

MY MAIN QUESTION IS THIS:WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO CHANGE A QUALITY HUNT INTO A QUANTITY HUNT AND WITHIN 2-3 YEARS HAVE THE PLACE COMPLETELY DECIMATED DUE TO GREED AND PISS POOR MANAGEMENT???

GO AHEAD,YOU BOY'S THAT ARE SURE YOU KNOW EVERYTHING,GO AHEAD AND ANSWER THE QUESTION!!!

WAKE THE HELL UP,IF YOU WANT A RAGHORN BULL,YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE TO DRAW(WASTE) A LE TAG TO GET ONE!!!

I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE PRICES OF THE TAG'S GOING UP AS LONG AS SOMEBODY CAN PROVE TO ME THAT A 100% OF THE MONEY IS GOING BACK INTO THE WILDLIFE,OUTSIDE OF THAT,I'VE GOT ISSUES!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT CAN LOOK INTO THE FUTURE AND SEE,I'VE GOT 15 WORTHLESS BONUS POINTS AND NOWHERE TO USE THEM!!!
 
Mark

I AGREE ON THE KID'S NOT HAVING A BIG CHANCE OF DRAWING,THEY'VE CHANGED A FEW THINGS ON THAT AND SOME TAGS ARE FOR YOUNGER PEOPLE OR PEOPLE WITH FEWER POINTS!!!

A GUY I KNOW DRAWED A LE ELK TAG WITH 2 POINTS,I HAVE 8,I DID NOT DRAW ON THE SAME UNIT,AM I PISSED???NO,BUT THE POINT SYSTEM IS NOT A FAIR SYSTEM,WE ARE INTO IT NEARLY 13 YEARS,HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY MAKE A FAIR CHANGE NOW???

TO TAKE A TROPHY BULL JUST ONCE IN YOUR LIFE BEATS ALL THE RAGHORN BULLS YOU COULD EVER PILE UP!!!

THE ONLY bobcat MAKING PEOPLE MAD WITH THE HARD,COLD THRUTH!!!
 
Quality!!!!!

Look at Colorado, lots of smaller bulls, but not many places to get a GREAT bull.
My gut feel is that Utah will go with quantity,however, since it will generate more dollars.
It has taken Utah a long time to develope the trophy hunting that is available, let's leave it alone.
If you want an average bull, go to Colorado and hunt.
 
I agree w/ MBM, I think "opportunity" takes precedent. As hunters, we WANT to hunt!! Many of us will be too old by the time we accumulate the points necessary for some areas! I believe the hunting public's growing facination w/ "trophy racks" has gotten way outta hand. It's an honor and privilege to hunt and harvest ANY elk, muley , pronghorn or whitetail!!! We've created a "monster" w/all this trophy and quality emphasis. Sure, there is a strong faction that hunts exclusively for trophy animals and that's okay, but, the general hunting public just wants a chance to go afield and hunt. An animal of trophy porportions would just be icing on the cake. I feel sorry for the young hunters who will, most likely, never draw until "middle-age" and the "older" hunters, who will never draw at all!! That's not what hunting's about for me.
Just my 2-cents worth!!! :-(
 
As long as there are places you can go every year, like CO and ID the way it is now, I would rather see more quality in other places for that special once in many a year hunt. But, if the choice were to hunt elk or not, I would take more opportunity in a heartbeat.
 
I agree with bobcatbess. Lets have some great bull units. It would be a terrible waste of time that has been spent to have the great units that are in Utah. My dad has been putting in for elk for 10 years and he finally drew the Wasatch unit. I have 4 points for elk. I realize that I may not draw for a great unit for some long years. I hunt the any bull units each year trying to get lucky in running into a rag horn. Hasn't happened yet. I've only seen 1 bull( a spike) on the anybull unit. I have looked in to hunting elk in Idaho and they have some good quanity hunts for elk.
 
Lets not screw up a good thing. I agree that it may take many years, to draw, but It is definitely worth it. If you are just looking to get out in the field, there are plenty of opportunities to hunt spike and open any bull units. Utah has some of the best elk around. Opportunity for branch antlered bulls is readily available in our neighboring states as well. If you move the rifle season, there would be less harvest, however, that season is what makes for a premium hunt. I would say more hunters are putting in for a hunt during the rut, than for a hunt with a rifle. If I am not mistaken the rifle season is the only one in which you do not have to worry about a ton of other hunters in the field chasing deer and fouling up your chances. The rifle season is definitely worth the time it takes to draw in my opinion.

I hope that the majority of sportsmen push to keep things as they are. At least, until I draw and have the opportunity at a trophy bull of a lifetime.
 
BOTH! It seems there are many who beleive that increased opportunity means lower quality. It all depends on what is considered quality.

Units managed for 5-6 year old bulls seem to produce something for everyone. The average hunter gets excited and shoots a 300 class bull, while the die-hard really hunts hard and trys for a 350+, both of which are very attainable on the 5-6 year units. And tag numbers are much higher than 7-8 year old units.

The 7-8 year old units are a joke. These units produce large elk, but at the expense of the public. Many bulls die of old age on these units, the Pahvant has a 1 to 1 bull cow ratio. These units are costing opportunity, while producing small numbers of large bulls. A friend of mine shot his bull on the Pahvant, it scored over 375 and was 6 years old, which means less tags for the public the next year because is bull was BELOW objective in age, lowering the average age of elk harvested.

A few years ago we as elk hunters were all excited about a 340 bull being killed. That was good enough. Now if you shoot a 340 people just say nice bull and walk away. My opinion is that a 320+ bull a great animal and very obtainable on ANY LTD Elk unit, with the strong possibility of a 350+ if a guy knows how to hunt.

Open Bull units are good too. People just have to know how to hunt them. I hunt an open bull unit, public land, and have shot a bull every year for 5 years. One bull was a 315 six point. Great time for $60.
 
1. I don't think we have to give up any quality of animals in the field. Simply moving the rifle hunt back to mid October would manage the rifle hunt for 70 - 80% success and allow for 20 - 30% more permits right there.

2. Age class management can stay exactly the same while adding huge numbers of permits in the primitive weapons catagories. Adding hunting preasure during the archery and muzzle loader hunts will reduce both age of bulls harvested and success rates across the board. Adding pressure during the archery season will spread the herds and hunter success during the rifle season will go down as well as age of the bulls harvested. All the while maintaining the high concentration of world class bulls in the field for those willing to work extremely hard for them.

The difference will be that the hunt will become a hunt again. You won't be able to simply ride around on your 4 wheeler and pick the first 300+ bull you see.

We'll all be able to hunt 3 - 8 times for these big bulls in our life times. Rather than the existing system of once every 39.6 years. Yet the opportunity for 400" class bulls will still be there for those willing to work that hard.

Arizona is a great example of this type of system. I believe that Arizona has 8 times the number of big bull permits vs. Utah and they harvest equal or more world class bulls each year on a herd that is 1/2 the size of Utahs.

As Don Peay pointed out last year at one of the RAC's we can't have the same system as Arizona and have our spike bull units, but we could do our seaons more in line with theirs and have 2 to 3 times as many hunters afield on the LE units.

Cheers,
Pete
 
Bobcat- "MY MAIN QUESTION IS THIS:WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO CHANGE A QUALITY HUNT INTO A QUANTITY HUNT AND WITHIN 2-3 YEARS HAVE THE PLACE COMPLETELY DECIMATED DUE TO GREED AND PISS POOR MANAGEMENT???"

I would just say that lowering the Age Class Objective on the 7-8 year old units to 5-6 year olds would allow 2-3 times the number of permits on those units and maintain a healthy herd with many large trophy bulls. That would equate to over 150+ more tags. Interesting that the State Record and most of the 400 class bulls last year came off 5-6 year old units. I doubt anyone here wants the units returned to open bull status. The management should not be about the extremes on either end (shoot them all or manage for B&C heads), rather somewhere in the middle.
 
I agree with C3 and packout, take the hunt out of the rut, give more opportunity. Make it a hunt, not a shoot. Russ
 
If we are all dreaming....this is what I would like.

First of all, DECREASE the cow tags!! If not pretty soon we are going to have a bunch of homosexual bulls running around. The ratio is way off, 1x1 or even 2 bulls to 1 cow is ridiculous.

Next, Start the AR hunt Sept. 1st, run it for three weeks, no need having the AR elk hunt start in Aug.

ML would start right after the AR, run it 10 days.

Keep a few LE rifle tags during Sept. for youth 17 and under, and the seniors, 65 and older. But make it 5 point bull or smaller hunt. Giving them the choice of this hunt or putting in for the main LE hunt.

Then the main LE Rifle season late Oct. or Nov.with increased tags with more opportunity so it is more of a hunt rather then an easy harvest.

just a few thoughts.

Travis
 
C3 & Packout hit the nail on the head! I never have understood why the rifle hunters get the rut and the bowhunters don't--makes no sense at all. As mentioned before--move the rifle hunt to mid October and issue a few more tags, that way the units will maintain world class bulls and give more hunters the opportunity to hunt them.
 
There are many opinions about this topic,heres mine. Utah is a great place to hunt for elk because of the way it's been managed. I've shot several cows, and one 6X4 in the general zones. After waiting nine years I drew a Limited Entry tag last year and was fortunate enough to get a 400 class bull. This is the only way I could ever afford to go on this quality of a hunt. So as you can read I'm not just a trophy hunter, I just love to hunt. I'll keep hunting elk in Utah until I can put in for the LE hunts in five years. Utah has it all don't change anything as long as it is working. Make adjusments when you have to but keep the same management philosophy. If you check the statistics alot of people with few bonus points draw LE tags, unlike other states.No matter what you do you're not gonna please everyone but I think Utah is trying. Like I said that's my opinion and you know what they say about opinions.
 
Quality.

I have been putting in for 20 years and never drawn, but that's okay, I will wait my turn. In the meantime, I will take advantage of the other opportunities in the spike units, open bull units, and surrounding states.
 
the whole thing comes down to, being in the right place at the right time.
some say quality, others are quanity.
if you scout the area and know your quaries route,
then Quality is what you'll end up with, barring no one else has changed their habbits.
last day and a 5 point comes along and its late in the evening with no other sign,
well,doe see doe, your bringing home back straps.
I saw off those big horns and through them in the ditch. those sticks have very little flavor and are hard to chew up.
 
The current system is the only way that alot of people are going to get the chance at a 300" bull in their lifetimes. If you don't care about size, buy a general tag or go out of state. So some bulls are dying of old age, big deal, at least they are passing on their genes longer. I'll wait if it means the hunt of a lifetime. I would hate to see our elk go the way of our deer.

I strongly believe that they should change the season dates for any weapon!
 
While I do believe the archery hunt should run a few days longer, I would not move all rifle tags out of the rut. I would leave 25% of the rifle tags in Sept, but at a shortened 5-7 day season. Then move the other 75% out of the rut and into Nov. The ML could remain in the end of Sept. Then people could choose for themselves.

BlackPredator - The reason why the San Juan, Pahvant, Deep Creek herds have a 1 to 1 bull cow ratio is the ridiculous 7-8 year old management objective. Lots of inferior bulls and older bulls never get shot because the hunter is too picky. Lower those 7-8 year units to 5-6 year old units and you will kill more bulls, which will allow for more cows in the herd objective, which means they will produce more bulls to shoot.

Where did the #1 and #2 typ bulls come from?? It wasn't one of the 7-8 year old trophy units, but the most heavily hunted 5-6 year old units.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-03-04 AT 12:51PM (MST)[p]I don't see how moving the age class management from 7-8 to 5-6 would get you more tags past a couple of years. If you increase the tag numbers significantly the average age class possible will in turn go down. Once this age class is down to your new objective, your two year surplus that was created from changing the management is used up and your right back to the same number of tags as before but now with 5-6 year bulls instead of 7-8.

We have already paid the price(time) to get the age class up there. Why ruin our investment.

Right now I say quality over quantity but after my LE hunt this fall I'm sure my opinion will change because of selfish greed and I will agree with quantitiy to reduce my wait time.

I'm sure peoples opinions on this have alot to do with whether they have already drawn tag or not.

$.02
 
I am all for opportunity. I do feel like we could keep 2 or 3 premium units like San jaun the pahvant and maybe southwest desert. The truth be told you will never draw twice and our kids never will. I don't think we need to kill all the elk off either. By simply moving the season dates and increasing primitive weapons that are less successful we can let people choose if they want the premium hunt, the great hunt with a rifle or the primitive hunt they might draw more often but possibly not kill an elk. This rifle kill in the rut is a joke in my oppinion. Move it out of the rut and make them hunt a bit. You will never please everyone but you could possibly please a lot of people with this scenario. Have a great day!

Chad
 
PackOut,
I can't speak for the Pahvant, or deep creek but as for the San Juan I don't believe it all has to do with the age class, although it's a factor......

Case in point the last two years, the antlerless tag #s that were advertised in the antlerless proclamation for the San Juan unit were 45 res. 5 non-res. one early (nov.) and one Late (Dec.)for the two seasons, 100 tags total, But when the results cam out, the DWR infact doubled the tag numbers to 90 and 10 for each of the two seasons, That's now 200 cow tags,
throw in another 50-60 cow tags on the boardering CWMU units and you have two many cow tags for one unit/area,.

Sure success isn't 100% but I would say that out of 260 probably 200 are getting harvested, most all of those cows are caring a calf embryo...so now that's 400 elk instead of 200 cows....thus my point stop giving out some many cow tags, until the bull to cow ratio is where it should be, if that means killing more bulls Great! more business for me, and more opportunity for others.

The DWR has once again advertised in the Procimation for 45-5, for both San Juan seasons, well see what the actual #'s turn out to be.
I do agree to move the rifle season, and give more bull tags all around,....but what happens when their aren't any cows left to bred.....hmmmmmmmmm......maybe the mule deer will make a come back???...never mind kill all the elk, I'd rather hunt mule deer!

Travis
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-03-04 AT 03:35PM (MST)[p]HeartShot- Here is why you get more tags with a 5-6 year old unit.
-To keep the herd at objective in a 7-8 unit hunters must harvest bulls which are 7+ years old. For every bull under 7, the average age of harvested elk drops. Now, many 5 and 6 year old bulls are shot each year in the 7-8 year units because they are BIG. That reduces the average age of harvested elk for the unit which reduces tag numbers for the next year.

-The habitat can only carry a certain number of animals. The older bulls which have not been shot never get shot because they do not meet the "Trophy" class most hunters expect on these units. To carry these older bulls on the availible habitat, cows are shot. Reducing the overall production of the herd.

-For the first couple years the permits would increase substantially (but controlled), and then decrease slightly as age classes come in line. The overall increase in permits after the herd stabilizes at the 5-6 year class would be double. And the production of the herd increases because you have more cows to calve. 1 to 1 bull cow ratios do no good for the herd, especially when many of the bulls are 10+ with "small" antlers (compared to the others). 5-6 year unit hunters tend to take the Good bulls, which are past their prime. This doesn't happen on 7-8 year units. Anyway that is how it should work. The Monroe is a good example of what I am talking about. It was a 7-8 year unit, but has been cut back to a 5-6 year unit.

Best of Luck to You on Your Hunt. (I drew a tag this year also 5-6 year old unit)

-BlackPredator - A quick look at the Herd Numbers show that the San Juan is close to the herd size objective. Considering the drought in SE Utah, I imagine that the DWR wants to keep the population from growing until the drought ends. Think how many more cows you guys could have if you didn't have to carry 100+ old bulls which no one with a San Juan tag wants to shoot. (And I'd kill all the elk if our deer would come back - hahaha)
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-03-04 AT 03:43PM (MST)[p]Hunting elk during the rut with a gun is a joke...that should be dropped IMO.

How about have both. Make the seasons shorter, issue more tags, and let them hunt during less peak times, i.e. not the rut later in the year with more primitive weapon tags. More tags would be issued, the same number of bulls would get shot and your chances of drawing a tag in your lifetime would be much greater. You might only get 2-4 days to hunt every 2-5 years but thats better than the two weeks or what ever once every 20 isn't it? Don't you think that your odds of killing a nice bull on a general tag are about as good as they are for drawing a permitt now?

Why should you be garenteed a bull if you draw a tag? 100% kill why not hunt a fuggn game farm? Its called hunting for a reason. For the most part all the LE tags has done is made it easier for the average hunter to kill a big bull. The true hunter were still killing the big bulls.

Pimping out the animals to the people is getting redicoulous. If UT wants to manage for mosters and ruin your oppertunities thats fine, but stay in your own state and stop hunting CO and ID... and ruining their's ;)
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-03-04 AT 04:11PM (MST)[p]Pack Out,
It may be close to herd size objective, but the ratio's not right! What good is a herd if they are all bulls.
And another thing, can you tell the age of a bull just by looking at it? Don't think so.

A 6 point bull could be anywhere from 4-14 years old, I have seen it personally off the San Juan, verified from tooth data.

I know of 9 bulls taken off the unit last year, that I/we measured between 347 and 393 B&C, ages were from 6-11, the 393 bull being 9. Two years ago a 355B&C bull that was 14 years old was killed. all verified later by tooth data.

So if these are the class of bulls being shot, and they are all considered trophies, where do you come up with the "100+ old" bulls that no body is shooting.....I'm sorry but it isn't happening. And if they aren't dying of old age, because my self and half that county that looks for sheds would be finding more old carcasses, and that isn't happened regularly either.

I don't think bulls digress as quickly as a mule deer can. A bull can be in it's prime (350+) from 6-14 years old. It may not dominate a herd all of those years, but that's not what we are talking about, they still will breed every chance they get.

My observations show me that the class of bull that is overly present on the San Juan is the 3-5 year old 275-330 class bull. Mature enough to breed and cause problems for a herd bull, and steal a few away, but not quit big enough for someone to shoot. Unless they get real trigger happy, which does happen some each year.

So my point is.......give more bull tags, and stop or reduce the cow tags, until the ratio is where it should be.

The End
Travis
 
O.K this is the way I see it. Yes, I am like most of you out there that have been putting in year in year out with very little hope to ever draw a tag, but.. I think the state still needes to manage for quality. However, my biggest beef is with the completely rediculous draw system. I have been saying for years that it is unfair and with minor changes, I think all could win. Here is what I would do.

1. All tags should go to those with the highest point accumulation. Period!! This way, it's first come first serve. You do the time and you will be rewarded. Also, this make sure that the guy that drew out 7 years ago and now has a couple of points again wouldn't draw before those who have never drawn ever. Trust me this happens all the time. I know the Fish & Game will say that if people know they don't have a chance to draw they won't put in. THIS IS BULL CRAP!!. If you knew that all you had to do is get in line for 4-6 years before your chances were almost guarenteed wouln't you do it? Of course you would. It's like an amusement ride, what do you do when you finally get on the ride and it's over. Do you say, well I guess i'm going to have to wait so i'm never getting back on? No.. you get in line and start all over again. Same concept.

2. If they did it this way, those who have been waiting for the quality wouldn't get screwed and everyone starts drawing at a reasonable time frame. Instead of hunting once in a life time, you may have 2-3 shots at it before your too old to give a crap.

It's a simple proven and fair concept that would greately improve the entire system. When will the DWR finally wake the hell up and listen to the hunters and not special interests??

I better sign off now before I blow a gasket.
 
Travis, "So my point is.......give more bull tags, and stop or reduce the cow tags, until the ratio is where it should be." "It may be close to herd size objective, but the ratio's not right! What good is a herd if they are all bulls."

You just said the same things as in my previous posts. I agree 100%. I wonder how many of those 285-330 class bulls are over 7 years old. If your herd is at 1,000 head and you have a 1 to 1 or 1 to 2 bull to cow ratios, that means you have around 500 bulls and 500 cows or 330 bulls and 660 cows. It lies somewhere there. Either way it is too many bulls. I'd bet at least 100 of the those 350-500 bulls are over age objective. Harvest them from the herd and you get 100 more cows to have about 50 calves a year to replace the animals harvested each year. (Yes 50 calves in one year doesn't replace the 100 extras, but it will over time)

I mounted a 290" 5 point off the Manti last year which was aged at 11 years old. I imagine the San Juan, Pahvant, and other 7-8 year old units have the same thing - Problem is no one will shoot that kind of bull on those Premier Units.
 
I feel we can keep the quality, and still increase the quantity if a couple of things happen. Many of the above posts state that there are a bunch of 280-320 class bulls that nobody with a rifle permit will shoot, which is exactly right. Everyone with a rifle tag during the rut knows that if they can wait long enough, a good bull will expose itself. If they take the rifle hunt out of the rut, and those bigger bulls are not as easy to find, that will make a few of those rifle hunter harvest a lesser bull in order to fill their tags. Result:smaller but respectable bulls harvested.
With this hunt moved, increase the limited entry permits for the archery and muzzleloader hunts. These hunts are not "guaranteed" and do not have as high of success. These hunters usually tend to shoot bulls smaller than the rifle hunters due to the conditions that come along with hunting with primitive weapons. With an decent increase in these permits, a lot more of the 280-320 bulls will be harvested by these hunters, thinning out that age class and size class, also.
Run this system for a few years and watch the age class to see what happens. The age average will come down due to the younger bulls being harvested due to tougher hunts, but there will still be trophy bulls on every unit for those willing to hunt hard and take the chance of maybe not harvesting a bull. If the big bulls are still there, even if the harvested age class is down, so what. This will give many more hunters that opportunity, and still gives all of them a better chance to harvest a true trophy than hunting the open bull areas.
I also think that there should be some kind of cull hunt for kids and/or senior citizens to help clean out some of the large 5X5's or 5X6's that are infesting all the LE units. They would have to be accompanied by someone who would approve the bull to be shot. That would make it hard to manage, but would really help the genetics on all units. I have seen some monster 5X5's and 5X6's that nobody wants to shoot when they know they can harvest a great 6X6. And some of these inferior antlered bulls are doing a lot of the breeding as they are strong, mature bulls that can fight off the others bulls. A kid or senior would have the thrill of a lifetime to harvest some of these bulls.
I finally drew a LE archery tag after putting in for 29 years, and it was worth every dissappointing year, but I know that I'll be hard put to be able to hunt hard in another 29 years.
The quality is worth it, but it can be managed to where a guy may get a couple of quality hunts in a lifetime!
Just my $.02....
a*r


A bad day hunting is better than a Good Day at Work!!
 
WELL

I'VE SEEN SOME FAIRLY IMPRESSIVE 5 POINTS THAT WERE GROWING UP TO BE NICE BULLS,O.K. I GET IT,IT'S O.K. TO SEE A 4X4 BULL BUT LET'S CULL ALL 5X5 BULLS,MAYBE IF WE KILL THEM ALL,THEY'LL JUST JUMP FROM A 4X4 TO A 6X6,GO FIGURE!!!

I SEE YOUR POINT ON THE 5X6 BULLS,BUT IS THERE ANY PROOF THAT IT WORKS???

WE COULD SAY,OH,HE'S JUST A 9X8,LET'S CULL HIM,THAT 9X8 BULL SHOWS BAD GENETICS!!!

FUNNY HOW MOST PEOPLE THAT DRAWED THIS YEAR ARE LEANING TOWARDS AOPPORTUNITY AND MORE PERMITS,I WONDER WHY???

GOOD LUCK ar,I'M NOT TRYING TO BE SMART,I'M JUST SAYING THAT I GUESS MOST PEOPLE THINK THE PERFECT BULL SHOULD HAVE THE SAME AMOUNT OF POINTS ON EACH SIDE!!!

TELL ME THIS,WHEN YOU GET CLOSE TO THAT 400 BULL ON YOUR HUNT,ARE YOU GONNA TURN HIM DOWN BECAUSE HE'S ONLY A 8X7???

I'D BE MORE CONCERNED ABOUT THINNING SOME OF THEM WILLOW HORNED,SHORT TINED,JUNK BULLS OUT,AKA 'MEAT BULLS'!!!

THE ONLY bobcat WONDERING???
 
I've been applying for elk in Utah for nearly 20 years. I've never drawn a permit. I believe that we can have both high quality and much higher quantitiy, given a slightly different mind set.

I'm not one of those who's drawn and shot a 380+ bull now saying it's time to change. Yet I still believe there is room for increadible increases in opportunity while at the same time the opportunity for WR class bulls.

I support the fact that we've gotten to this point of bulls dying of old age on the LE units. I think it's now time to make subtle changes that will, over a few years, allow more opportunity for these monster bulls while at the same time harvesting some of the lesser animals.

Folks have to see that it not going to change in one year from 29 permits for bulls on the Pahvant to 200. It's going to be a few at a time until we are at a happy medium. Lots of opportunity, but still 7 - 8 year old bulls being harvested by the hardcore hunters who really put their time in and know what they are doing.

Bobcat, you can't put everyone in the same catagory based on who's drawn vs. who's not. I'm in the NOT group and still believe in the possibilty of massive increases in opportunity over time.

All it takes is to make the hunt a bit more difficult and the harvest rates go way down. Adding more primitive weapons permits, makes the harvest rate go down. Taking the rifle hunt out of the rut makes the harvest rate go down.

These two things alone will allow for a doubling of the permits vs. harvests over time. Imagine 2500 LE permits in 5 years with only a few additional bulls being harvested. The age class of bulls harvested will go down and folks will have to work a bit harder, yet the monsters are still there for those who are good enough to work them.

It's a win - win for everyone involved.

Cheers,
Pete
 
Pete

I'M NOT PUTTING EVERYBODY IN THE SAME EXACT CATEGORY!!!

WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY IS!!!

THERE ARE VERY FEW AND LIMITED QUALITY 'BIG BULL' ELK OPPORTUNITIES IN THIS STATE!!!

PART OF THE HIGH QUALITY HUNT IS TO BE ABLE TO HUNT WITHOUT FIGHTING EVERYBODY AND THERE DOGS FOR A PLACE TO HUNT!!!

GIVE THE DWR A CHANCE AT MORE OPPORTUNITY AND YOU WON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT ANY OF IT!!!

I CAN SEE RIGHT NOW IT WILL ALL WORK RIGHT IN WITH WHAT THE DWR REALLY WANTS:MORE TAGS = MORE MONEY,IF YOU THINK FOR A SECOND THEY CARE RATHER YOU & ME EVER DRAW AND HARVEST A 350"+ BULL YOU MIGHT WANT TO THINK ON IT A LITTLE!!!

I THOUGHT MYSELF IT WAS NICE TO SEE A FEW HUNTERS AND TO HEAR OF A FEW HUNTERS HARVESTING BULLS UP AROUND AND A LITTLE OVER 400",BUT I GUESS ITS JUST BOTHERING THE HELL OUT OF ALOT OF PEOPLE THERE ARE A FEW REGRESSING AND ALOT OF BULLS IN THE 315-340 RANGE THAT PEOPLE DON'T EVEN RAISE THEIR GLASSES TO LOOK AT!!!

IN TWO YEARS I'D HATE TO LOG ON TO MM AND SEE 'THE DECLINE OF TROPHY BULL ELK',KNOW WHAT I MEAN???

NOW,THE HARD COLD TRUTH!!!

WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH OPPORTUNITY FOR EVERYBODY AND THEIR DOGS TO HUNT TROPHY BULL ELK EVERY YEAR!!!

REMEMBER THIS ONE,YOU INCREASE THE TAGS AND THE VERY NEXT YEAR PEOPLE WILL BE SCREAMING FOR MORE!!!

IT MIGHT QUITE POSSIBLY BE A ONCE IN A LIFETIME OPPORTUNITY!!!

WITH JUST A LITTLE MISMANAGEMENT THESE UNITS CAN BE DESTROYED A HELL OF ALOT QUICKER THAN IT TOOK TO MAKE THEM WHAT THEY ARE TODAY!!!

EVERYBODY WANTS A 400" CLASS BULL,NOT EVERYBODY CAN HAVE ONE!!!

INCREASING THE PERMIT NUMBERS AND OVERHUNTING THE LE UNITS IS NOT GONNA HELP YOU FOR A VERY LONG TIME INTO THE NEAR FUTURE!!!

I'VE SEEN IT WITH MY OWN EYE'S,WHAT HAS TAKEN SEVERAL YEARS TO ACCOMPLISH CAN BE DECIMATED IN 1-2 YEARS,I DON'T THINK WE OUGHT TO CHANCE IT!!!

QUALITY BEATS QUANTITY ANY DAY!!!

YOU WANT QUANTITY AND OPPORTUNITY???HUNT THE OPEN AREA'S,THERE IS UNLIMITED OPPORTUNITY!!!(HE,HE!!!)

THE ONLY bobcat THAT MAY NEVER GET A QUALITY TAG BUT I'LL DIE TRYING!!!
 
Hey Bobcat, I think you took my idea in the wrong way. I didn't mean to go and kill every 5X5 on the mountain, but it is a fact that a 5+ yr old 5X5, will pretty much stay a 5X5 the rest of his life. There are exceptions, but I think we've all had a mature bull we've seen more than one year in a row, and they typically remain the same antler and point configuration.

And as far as passing up a 7X8 because of the difference in points, that is a no brainer. That wasn't my idea either. I just know that a lot of guys feel they need to harvest a 6X6 or they have failed.

The permit I drew was last year, and was an archery permit. I had set a standard for myself and passed up many shots at smaller bulls. It is tough to be holding a bow in your hand and pass up a shot at a 300 pt bull knowing how hard it could be to get within range of another bull again. The thought crossed my mind plenty of times to take a shot at one of those bulls, but I knew I would never have a chance for a bigger bull if I shot a smaller one.
I harvested my bull the final evening of the hunt, after passing up shots at about 15 different bulls the final evening. It was tough passing up those bulls, and it was probably pure luck to finally get a good bull to show the last hour of the day, but luck plays a big part in hunting! With the three weeks of hunting I had experienced, I would have been ok with not harvesting a bull, but things worked out for me.
After having the experience, I could easily get greedy and want to change from quality, to quantity, but like I said, the wait was worth it. It is just that with a few minor changes, it would create more opportunity without giving up the quality that we now enjoy in Utah.
These are just ideas that I think would work, and they would take a lot of management to be sure they worked properly.
I enjoy your posts BOBCATBESS, and hope I didn't stir you wrong!

THE ONLY a*r HOPING TO HAVE A CHANCE TO DRAW ANOTHER LE ELK TAG SOMEDAY, AND HOPING THAT EVERYONE HERE HAS THE CHANCE TO EXPERIENCE THE THRILL ALSO!!!!

A bad day hunting is better than a Good Day at Work!!
 
Hey BCB, I agree with everything you are saying! I agree that quality must come before quantity. I'd hate to be where we were 10 years ago on our elk. We are probably one of the premier elk states and I think we need to be proud of that fact. My idea just allows a few more hunters the chance. After the number of bulls I seen during my hunt, and few more permits wouldn't hurt at all. I don't think that a few permits would create overhunting or overcrowding. I'm sure that different units would come under different situations, which is where management would have to play a bigger role.

a*r

A bad day hunting is better than a Good Day at Work!!
 
If you have a place like San Juan area giving out say 50 tags total for bulls and you have a herd of 3000,and as the 1000 cows calf, and half of those are bulls so say 500 new bulls are put in the mix each year, how in the hell can you say that there isn't bulls out there that are not die from old age and not being havested by any hunter, whether is because of size or age you still have bulls that are over the limit due to the amount of tags. Guess I'm trying to say is if you have a 100 new bulls coming in a small area herd and your only havesting 1/2 of them what is happening to the other 1/2 half. I know that you have more bulls coming into the herd then is being taken your mix of cows and bulls will be throw off pretty quick,The next question is how about those farmers who get 10-15 tags for a depredation hunt all they get to do is shoot cows and that can throw the balance farther off, "what the bulls don't feed in those same fields", the tags given out to those farmers and ranchers should be of equal size (exp: 3 bull tags 12 cow or something along those lines.)What happens when there are only bulls feeding in those fields and finding a cow is harder than finding bulls. You guys are right shoot them all and let the Muley take back over.Well that is my 2 cents and that just might be 2 cents to much.
 
Many have stated that a 5x5 will often stay that way for life due to many factors, the main being genetics. IMHO, keep things the way they are but add a few "5x5" (or other smaller antlered elk that have reached maturity) hunts for youth, seniors, and the general public. If trophies are the only thing killed then pretty soon the genetics will be "5x5". We all see them and know that these 5x5's will be around until they die because no one will shoot them with a LE tag. The only problem in my theory is how to make sure the 5x5's that are done growing get harvested and not younger bulls on their way to greatness. Any suggestions?
 
That is where the problem lies with cull hunts? Which bulls to weed out and which ones to pass to let grow? It would have to be done under stict management by people who have the knowledge to make that decision. We all know guys that we could trust to make the proper decision, but it would be hard to have someone escorting every hunter. You couldn't rely upon those kids/seniors, etc., to make the right decision as to whether a bull was one to be harvested or not..and you couldn't expect the area biologist to accompany all of them either..

a*r

A bad day hunting is better than a Good Day at Work!!
 
I like the idea of moving the rifle hunt to october and putting the bow hunt during the rut. I like the curent management plan for elk only if it means instating a management plan that will continue to increase herds and therefore increase tag numbers. I'm sure all get a rash of crap for saying this but, we also need to decrease cattle numbers on our public land mountain ranges. This would allow for more elk and hence more tags. I mean the state will make a lot more money on deer and elk tags than on grazing permits. I also like the Colorado point system. Which means you have to have at least 4 points before you go in the draw. Now your thinking I only have two points, this system sucks, but not really, because when you finally earn your 4 points than your chances increase 2 fold of drawing. After all were taking all the guys with 0-4 points out of the draw, but even for them it's advantages because what are their chances of drawing in the first 4 years any way. I really think we should push for this type of program.

cabinfever
 
I like what muzzle had to say about the people with the highest point accumulation should get tags first. I'd also love to see the seniors get a tag before they move on but you can always buy over the counter tags in Idaho and Colorado. I live in Nevada and have never hunted Elk in my life but I would rather see quality over quantity. I now have 3 points accumulated and am perfectly willing to wait my turn. After all, if I really get to jonesing bad for a tag then I'll just go to Idaho.
Like the old saying goes...."if it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
Although I would agree with what several people said about making the bull to cow ratio better balanced. fatrooster.
 
I agree with cabin fever.... the rifle hunt needs to be in October post-rut...make it a real hunt instead of a slaughter...
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-07-04 AT 04:11PM (MST)[p]Utah needs to take some lessons from Arizona and move the rifle elk hunts out of the rut. Arizona has been doing it for years and they give out anywhere from 300 to 500 bull elk tags on their 2 top units and still have high 300 to 400 bulls harvested every year. This 15 to 20 tag thing is getting old. I'd like to know when they will wise up. I agree with what kind of hunt is it when you do draw? My guess is, drive down the road, stop do some calling, there it is blow it over. Yeh. Nice hunt. Move the rifle hunts out of the rut, gradually increase the opportunity, and there will still be quality bulls. The only difference is, you might just have to work for one and actually hunt.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-07-04 AT 04:26PM (MST)[p]By the way, I don't think Utah could use the same November dates as Arizona because of the possibilities of heavy snow depending on the year. So the hunt dates would have to be in mid to late October or early November. Don't want the slaughter in belly deep snow either. Just some thoughts.
 
I'm really impressed. Most folks are on the same page with that poll. 2/3rds are in favor of increasing opportunity and 3/4's are in favor of moving most of the any weapon permits out of the rut to allow for more opportunity.

I hope John and folks can reach a mutual agreement on these issues with the Jim and company.

It may take a few years to get there, but it appears that most are in favor of moving the same direction.

Wonder what the total number of repsonses has been?

Cheers,
Pete
 
How about letting the whole State of Utah go unlimited OTC, and Colorado will manage for quality !!!

Sorry boys, just dreaming ;-)
 
Has eveyone in Utah forgot the 80's wene the success was 1 in 10 shot a spike and about 1 in 20 shot a rag horn. So drawing every 20 years to shot a really good bull (330 plus)seems to me better,so let's keep the quality.And keep the opportunity that we had in the 80's not the quality we had in the 80's. Every one that has voted opportunity in my opinion would like more oportunity on good bulls like they would have for a couple of years untill the bulls aged at 3-4 years old then they would start there winning again.

stealth
 
I don't believe anyone wants to go back to 3-4 year old bulls. What people overwhelmingly are in support of if making it a hunt rather than a shoot when you draw.

Everyone thinks they are a better hunter than the average guy and will be in that 25 - 50% who are successful. We all think that we are the ones who when we draw will harvest a trophey bull.

This allows room for some movement in the hunting dates, some increased preasure during primitive weapons seasons, with the same number of truely trophey bulls being harvested each year.

The only difference is you'll get a few chances at it in your life time. Especially if you are willing to work hard enough with a primitive weapon.

Cheers,
Pete
 
This a great post guy's. I think the majority of hunters want opportunity as is represented by this post and several others I have seen. The state of Utah won't turn these units into 3-4 year old management units so that is not a concern. 5-6 year old bulls with most or in my oppinion all of the rifle permits out of the rut should allow for a generous increase without sacrificing the quality! Have a great day!

Chad
 
Let me get this straight. Later season dates more hunters (generously) will increase everyones chance to hunt. Everyone that draws a tag wants to "kill" and if this did what you are implying it would do (it won't) every one would still kill a good bull as you put it once in a lifetime. You are contradicting yourselfs.
 
There is no contradiction. You are assuming that the increase of tags would all be rifle. It is a simple plan to move the rifle out of the rut, increase primitive weapons permits to increase opportunity but actually decrease odds. (More bowhunters in the field actually lowers odds!) Move the rifle hunt to october/early november which would also decrease harvest. It would in fact make it a HUNT for everyone and allow for more permits to be issued. Will it happen? Who knows. I do know that it would work. Have a great day!

Chad
 
I have only been putting in for five years, and I am willing to wait another 50 to get a chance at a 400" bull. Who the hell wants to shoot a 300" bull. With monroe being a 5-6 year unit there are still plenty of big bulls up there. Last year I saw 3 that would all ogo over 385. That is plenty good for me. The biggest bull that has ever been seen on that mountain was wounded and never found by some damn bowhunter. If he would have stuck him better he would have had the new state record. A wildlife biologist who watched that bull alot aged him at only 7 years old, and estimated him at 445" gross. THe year before at 6 years old his sheds scored 423". I say leave everything how it is and quit bitching!
 
Yea those damn bow hunter wounded my possible state record too. I cant wait to throw some led at some bulls in the rut at 400 yards, theres no way I could wound one with my 300 mag. Russ
 
Yep with a 300 maaaaag all that you have to do is hit hair well ok just the mountain and if you make a good shot it is cleaned, caped and quarterd by the time you hike the two ridges to get to him. All the great hunters hunt with a 300 mag. Archery is to much of an art.

stealth
 
First, Ive hunted elk in Utah from September to November, all fun.
second, Utah is a great place to hunt elk because of the management practices.
Third, I keep reading that people seem to think that the LE hunts are a slaughter. All I can tell you about is the one I drew last year. After tons of phone calls and some scouting I got a great bull opening day more than a mile from the closest road.I feel I was very fortunate and got off easy. My buddy got a good bull about a mile off the road after hunting for nine days. We met a guy who lives in the hunting unit. He scouted all summer, hunted the archery season, and then the rifle hunt. He killed a 340 bull on the last day of the hunt. I figured he hunted roughly 33 days straight. It was a great hunt, I hope all of you who are putting in draw at least once in your lifetime. All I'm saying is before you start thinking these hunts are a slaughter talk to someone who has been on one. If you still think it's a slaughter then hunt the general zones. Who know's maybe I'll see you there.
 
THERE IS A LOT OF BULL &**& HERE.
If you waht to hunt 400 class bulls,
just tresspass, shoot it from the wrong side of the fence, or in the national parks.
personaly i think it should be an option to head hunt,
you choose it on your tag, pay the big bucks, adn thats it.
otherwise our meat hunting.
like many of us, and again your option on your tag is just meat, not rack size.
 
If your looking for 400 bulls You better look else where shed freak. The monroe has produced a whopping total of one (1) bull that made book, ever!!!
No need for you to comment Cass...............
 
Being such a popular topic I thought I'd throw in my $0.02.

After 16 years of applying for a L.E. elk tag, I finally drew in 2003 and harvested a 320 6x6 bull. I've had a number of people look at my bull with out much to say about it, other than that's nice. Most people I know have a have a mind set that if a bull doesn't score at least 350 points it's not worth harvesting.

I passed on a number of very nice bulls during the archery portion of my hunt knowing I still had the rifle hunt coming. Due to circumstances I elected to harvest this bull during the rifle hunt all the while knowing that bigger bulls were around. If circumstances were different, I have no doubt I could have taken a 350+ bull because during the archery portion of my hunt, I seen 340+ class bulls every day. With a bow, seeing a bull and shooting a bull are two different stories.

The sad thing is, I do feel some regrets about taking a 320 bull; however, I don't like those feelings. I should be very happy with what was given me. Although I must say, I've never considered myself a trophy hunter, I'm more of an opportunist. I'm the guy that usually gets a deer because I didn't pass opportunities at the two point bucks like many do. I've always been one to take what's given to me.

That said, I think we could reach a balance between opportunity and quality. If the DWR were to manage units for 5-6 year age class, they could raise the number of permits being issued thus creating more opportunity, while still maintaining quality. In addition the DWR should require a certain number of points to be acquired before being eligible to draw a tag, similar to Colorado.

Another suggestion would be to get rid of the purchasing of bonus points deal. Either you apply for the hunt or you don't. Don?t allow people to simply buy a bonus point.

And finally, get rid of the use of credit cards for applying. It's too convenient, because it allows people to put everyone they know and their dog in for tags. This would help decrease the odds of drawing a permit.
 
people complain about credit cards every year, but it makes the states a lot of $!! I feel you should have to front the $ upfront but I doubt it will change.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-09-04 AT 04:27PM (MST)[p]Hey shed freak,
Who was the biologist that was watching that "445" bull? And who got the sheds? Are they the Hunt's & Sorenson's sheds?
I've seen them but wasn't aware they scored that high...If that's right, I'll have to go and check them out again...
And who said an archer hit and lost the bull? As far as I know that was a rumor. Nobody has ever found the skull yet, so I think there was a little poaching going on. No, that never happens on Monroe??? yea, right... One of the bigger bulls a few years back was poached the day before the hunt. The guy who was after the bull, had seen him the afternoon before, and when he went into the area opening morning, all he found was a body without a head. I think that guy got caught. I really think that there is a lot more of that crap going on than we realize. Everyone sees a true monster now and again, but then when they dissappear and nobody harvests it, it gets blamed on someone hitting it and losing it, and usually an archer? Rifle hunters never wound bulls, right? Neither do muzzleloaders?
But the bulls skulls never show up!.......huh? must decay really fast????

a*r
A bad day hunting is better than a Good Day at Work!!
 
The greenwood guy is the biologist, I can't remember his first name. and yes it is the kelly hunt who has the sheds. Gary sorensen picked him up the year before when he was just a 7x7. They told me the greenwood dude gross scored the sheds. I would have only guessed him at 410" with only 45" beams. THat is just the story that I have heard from everybody about him getting wounded. fyi I am an avid bowhunter, it just pisses me off that that bull was not bagged.
 
45" beams 45+45=90 + inside being only45" long only gives him about a 40 at best=130 h measurments at 8" each =64=130=194"-445=251 being a 7x7 with 12 g mesasurments every point is almost 21" even the g 6 I don't think so.
 
Hey 250lbstealth, did you fail to clearly read my post. The year he scored 423 he was an 8x8. The year before he was just a 7x7, and I have no idea what he scored that year, but he was considerably smaller. Tho following year after he was an 8x8 is when he was estimated to score 445" Give me a few days and I will try to get some pictures.
 
Hey rick is it your boy that has been picking up that big 5 points sheds on cove? and if so did you guys ever see him this last winter. I never did see him this last year, and I can't remember if I saw him the year before or not. What did they score? you should post some pictures.
 
Shed Freak,
It was my boy that had picked them up the past two years after K Hunt found them the year before. We never seem him last year while we were scouting and we were up there every weekend and 2 to 3 times during the week. Someone told me they thought they had seen him, but nobody could verify it. I'll see if I can't get some photos of those shed posted. My friend who had a tag 3 years ago passed him up with his bow, and now he wishes he would have tried to take him. Said he didn't know just how big he really was until the sheds were found.
a*r

A bad day hunting is better than a Good Day at Work!!
 
My take is that voluntary surveys are skewed. If DNR posts a survey at a website, word gets out to the die-hard hunters and interest groups (hunting clubs, guys like us @ MM, etc.) who are more likely to be trophy hunters.

There are a majority of hunters out there that don't visit sites like MM much less the DNR site. And it's pretty well known that the majority of hunters are meat hunters, not trophy hunters.

I think Trophy Hunters would have higher odds of drawing a trophy unit tag if more units were managed for opportunity rather than 'Quality'.

To do get a good picture of how to achieve this, they need to poll all folks who receive a tag with a MANDATORY survey to get the most accurate results as possible.....internet surveys just don't cut it. And it would serve the purpose of most interest groups which want an easier draw for a trophy unit tag.

That's my two bits worth.
 
ShotgunJim, the only problem with your comparison is you may be too old hold your gun up when you finally draw the tag. Right now you can enjoy those bulls like the hot blonde at the intersection; look but don't touch.
 
I don't know if anyone has all the answers to satisfy the quality versus quanity debate, however, there definately can and should be some changes made without affecting the quality of our limited entry elk units. For example, I believe they could issue up to 20% more tags in every unit without affecting the quality of any of our units. For example, a unit that issues say 10 tags for archery, 10 tags for muzzy, and 10 tags for rifle. This increase would equate to 6 tags total. Now to maintain quality they could issue 75 percent (4.5 tags) of those tags to primitive weapon. So if you round up 4.5 to 5, that would give 5 tags to primitive weapon and one more additional rifle tag. Thus increasing drawing odds.
And for hell sakes we need to get rid of this "anyone can put in and draw" bull crap. We need to have at least a 4 bonus point minimum to be eligible for the draw. Trust me, this benifits even the guys with less than 4 bonus points, because once they earn their 4 points there odds shoot up dramaticly. Honestly, what are the odds of drawing with 1-4 points anyway.And if guys are really interested in why they can never seem to draw that coveted tag; listen up. A guy in my neighborhood put in over 30 people for the pahavant rifle hunt last year with the hopes of just one person drawing. Now the people he was putting in for this hunt would have never applied for the hunt on their own. Well guess what? This guys fourteen year old brother in law,who was just 1 of the 30 guys that he put into the draw,and who has a moderate interest in hunting, draws a rifle pahavant tag with 0 points and kills a 380 bull opening morning of the hunt. Am I jealous? Hell Yea I am, and I only have 6 bonus points. I really feel for those guys who have max points and some punk kid beats them out of a tag. And, for you guys that don't feel that we should make any changes, talk to a mathtician or a statician who understands the current draw system, and yours eyes will be opened wide to the reality of you ever drawing a tag in your life time. There is a happy medium in this debate, so lets come together and make something happen.

my two cents
cabinfever
 
May be I don't understand the debate but I don't think increasing archery or muzzleloader opportunity will help reduce the waiting period for rifle hunters.

I also have concerns that the UDWR believes the can increase the number of licenses and not kill more elk. I have heard it said before that they could increase the number of permits by moving the current rifle season out of the rut and hunting late Oct or early Nov. How many of you believe that hunters won't still be near the 100% mark with regards to rifle hunting late? I still contend that offering more licenses later will result in increased opportunity but it will also increase the harvest rate. I have heard some say that they anticipate only 50% success on the late season hunts. I doubt very much that the harvest will be that low. Anyone that has hunted elk knows once you have located elk you can kill them. There isn't any place in Utah that I can think of where elk are not more vulnerable later in the year. Why do you think most of the antlerless hunts are in Nov and Dec? Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it.

I still believe the best and safest way to increase opportunity is to reduce the average age of harvest from 7-8 to the 5-6 range. This will allow for more opportunity but it maintains the safety net and will prevent over harvest from occurring. Moving the time of the season will also increase opportunity but I believe the UDWR is not accurate in their assessment of what will truly be harvested.
 
Maybe if they would do away with both Rifle and Muzz made it that you could only hunt with archery that would age those bulls really quick then 3 years down the line open it back up for rifle and Muzz. after 3 years of just archery there should be a group of upper-age bulls in every unit. I think I'm the only guy who should get a tag EVERY YEAR.
 
Gator

NO YOU'RE NOT!!!

THE DWR CAN RUIN A GOOD THING REAL QUICK IF YOU LET EM!!!

WHY LET THE MAJORITY SPEAK FOR THE TROPHY HUNTERS???

THE ONLY THING THAT WOULD BE WORSE THAN WAITING A LIFETIME FOR THE TAG WOULD BE NOT FINDING A DECENT BULL AFTER YOU FINALLY DRAWED THE TAG!!!(DUH!!!)

IF YOU THINK A GOOD THING CAN'T BE RUINED,THINK AGAIN!!!

I WOULD BE HAPPY TO MAKE IT A ONCE IN A LIFETIME HUNT RATHER THAN KILL A RAGHORN AFTER WAITING FOR WHO KNOWS HOW THE HELL LONG???

YOU GUY'S WANT TO RAISE THE PERMIT NUMBERS BY JUST A FEW TO SATISFY EVERYBODY,IT AIN'T GONNA SATISFY ENOUGH,FYI,IN THE LAST THREE YEARS THE NUMBER OF LE ENTRIES HAVE TRIPLED,REALIZE THE HARD COLD FACTS,YOU CAN'T HUNT TROPHY BULL'S EVERY YEAR,DON'T RUIN WHAT LITTLE BIT OF QUALITY WE HAVE LEFT IN THIS STATE WITH GREED!!!

THE ONLY bobcat NOT WANTING TO SEE A GOOD THING DESTROYED BECAUSE EVERYBODY AND THERE DOGS WANT A TAG!!!
 
I cant't believe anybody who has has drawn out a limited entry elk tag would want to shoot a raghorn bull. Those who did, did'nt hunt very hard. Give me a break.. I've got 10 points for elk and feel I'm getting close to drawing out. "Quality" is it worth the wait "YES". Utah has already given out more tags this year then they ever have and provided more hunting oportunities with the archery and muzzleloader hunts being added this year. Why don't we wait and see how this works, and check out the statistics before we go adding more hunts. It took thirteen years to make the Utah elk hunt what it is today, one of the best elk hunting states in the nation, lets not ruin it by being greedy.

I live in the heart of Utah (spring city) and Hunting elk during the rut is one of the most exciting and thrilling hunts you could ever go on. Listening and trying to call in bulls during the rut is what this hunt is all about . Take this hunt out of the rut destroy's the lure and the mystic of hunting big bulls. The fall is also one of the most beautiful times of the year. This is a hunt we all dream about don't ruin it with mismanagement and overhunting these units.

Out of all the replies to this post the only one I thought might would help the drawing odds was to have at least four bonus points before you were even considered for the draw. Or change the waiting period to ten years. I know a couple of people who have drawn twice while I'm waiting for my first tag. Just doesn't seem right....

Age class reduction would not satisfy me, you're joking right? If we shoot all the younger bulls how long would it take till that is all you are seeing. IN a couple of years you would just have a younger age class of bulls not more bulls. Duh! heres your're sign. With the price of LE elk tags going up to $280 bucks I expect to see big "Quality bulls". If I want to just hunt elk Utah has some open bull units or I could just go hunting spike elk.

Sombody on this post said the majority of people wanted more opportunity, I don't believe this is true, everybody I have talked to would rather have "QUALITY". I would rather not harvest an elk than wait ten years to shoot a rag horn bull. If I wanted more opportunity to draw out I'd put in in several differant states.

Don't ruin a good thing be patient it will happen!!!
 
You have some great points Bishop. With 10 points I would not want to change anything either. The problem is the kids growing up right now and many of you reading this post will NEVER draw an elk tag. I talk to people everyday and the majority all want a chance to hunt quality and quantity. Look at the poll on SFW's website. Last I checked the majority there also wanted more quantity. I believe through the process their can be a happy medium. For my son's sake I hope they do something to increase odds drastically. Nobody wants Utah to change to a raghorn state! I think that both sides of the arguement are argueing over the worst case scenerio for both options. Good luck to the committee because it is obvious you can't please everyone! Have a great day!

Chad
 
Bishop, what you and some others fail to realize is that by keeping the 7-8 age class objective, tags are given on a very limited basis. Most bulls killed on these units are 5-8 years old. Extreme low hunting pressure allows the inferior bulls that will NEVER be a 330+ bull, or even a 6x6, to survive and never get killed. By reducing the age objective of 6-8 units we could have 150-250 more tags each year. Many people would shoot a 12 year old 320 bull and be elated.

You say you are from Spring City, so the Manti is your backyard. That unit is a 5-6 year objective and look at the slugs taken there year after year. This unit is proof enough.

Also, by shooting more of the older bulls out of the herd, the cow population can increase and thus produce more bulls. 1 to 1 bull - cow ratios, like on the Pahvant, only benefit the 20-30 guys who draw the tag.
 
Wow Packout you have fixed it. You should be the director of the big game board.
Well put bishop its funny how everyone wants quality but can not stand the wait. I have 9 elk points and could not draw wasatch archery and it does suck that hunters with no points that hunted the AR301 last year drew a dag this year. I think that all the tags should go to the high point holders.

stealth
 
It seems there are two constants here:
1. people with close to maximum points want quality, rightfully so it won't be long till they draw. It also seems most of them prefer to hunt with rifles.

2. people with few bonus points or who prefer to hunt with other methods want quantity.

Quantity is relative and easily defined where quality is irrelative and defined by an idividual so it is hard to have a unanimous decision on this subject.
Yes Utah's elk herd has improved and is noteworthy, however in the past fifteen years every western state was having the same type of success with their management strategies some wanted increased quantity others wanted "trophy quality". Unfortunately some states have been set back due to wolf recovery.

My question is this where would you like to see elk hunting fifteen years from now? We are losing hunter numbers every year, wolves are coming, prices have increased in Utah more than all other states combined (resident), opportunity is the most restricive. If we continue on the course we are on, these trends will magnify. So do we stay the course or make a change? One last thought everyone can buy a rifle, muzzleloader or bow therefore if you prefer a specific time period hunt it may take a purchase but the hunt will still be available.
 
I don't see any reason why the age class couldn't be lowered to 5-6 years for all units. ONCE AGAIN, the current units managed for 5-6 years old bulls are producing a high number of what I would call QUALITY bulls (320-360+).

I drew a tag for one of these 5-6 year units and I can tell you there is a high number of bulls that would score 320-360 points.
I saw bulls that would break the 340 mark nearly every day. The area I hunted received very little pressure. Most of those bulls never had to worry about people. It was a very high quality hunt that I will treasure for the rest of my life.

I really feel sorry for people just starting to build points because unless the system is modified most of those people will never draw in their lifetime. Allowing 100+ more hunters afield each year will not lower the quality of the units in any way; however, it would go a long ways in helping cycle people through the system.

In my opinion The AR301(with some slight tweaking) was a good idea because it allowed some of these new hunters, with few bonus points, a reasonable chance to draw a quality tag that they may otherwise never get.
 
Wapiti, great post and congratulation on the hunt. More opportunity doesn't mean slaughtering all the elk, just issueing a few more tags to use the surplus bulls which, under the current format, will never meet their end by a bullet. 300 extra tags spread over the 30+ LTD units means 3,000 more tags over 10 years and 9,000 more tags over 30 years.

250, thanks for the support. Glad to see you have educated yourself on this matter and how a 1 to 1 bull - cow ratio benefits no one. The Manti is great, because it is a 5-6 year unit. I think I won't take the UDWR Director job though, too many uneducated whiners always coming up with some conspiracy theory.
 
I've been watching this post for the last week and thought I would put my two cents in. I recommend that you guys take a look at your neighboring state Nevada and see what can happen when "quantity" takes over a "quality" elk hunt.

The Ely elk hunt is a prime example. I've hunted the rifle elk hunt for more then 10 years, from when there were 50 tags to when there's been 300. I can honestly say, and I'm not alone, that the quality of the bulls has gradually decreased every year as tag numbers keep increasing. You can still find alot of bulls but not as many of the huge bulls like years before. Most people realize what they've got once they draw a tag and alot of people will put in the time to try for a big bull. The more people you put out there the more big bulls will be taken every year.

This year at a tag quota setting meeting for the Ely area one of the game board members stood up and told everyone that not everybody want to shoot a 400 bull. This is the mentality that has ruined the trophy elk hunt. We used to be one of the top states for producing huge bulls each year but its seem like were going backwards.

I've been lucky enough to draw my own Nevada tag and I killed a great bull. I am more than willing to wait my ten years and probably more before I can have my own tag in Nevada again. I just hope by then it won't be a raghorn hunt. Until then I'm hoping I can draw in another state where I can have another opportunity at a big bull. I'm not from Utah and don't really know the whole story, but keep quality over quantity any day.
 
I have very few points, and there is a good chance that I may never draw a limited entry permit. But, in the event that I do draw, I do not want to pay $280.00 to kill a rag horn bull. If I wanted to kill a small bull each year, I wouldn't even apply for a permit. If you don't want the chance at a good bull, just buy a spike permit or a permit in an open bull area.
Another question.....How many of you can tell a bull's age by looking at him from 200 yards or more??
 
The question has never been to promote raghorns , seems to bee more of everyone want to shoot a 400 bull and would be unsatisfied with a 350-380 bull , and are willing to let those younger hunters comming up have basicaly no chance at drawing a tag. Now that being said no one wants to see what Utah has go to pot but a few more tags is not going to hurt anyones chances at a top quality bull , so the question should be ? # is acceptable.
 
I have waited my time in Colorado, it took 8 years to draw unit 10. I have been waiting my time in Utah, now I have 11 points. I see how Utah's drawing system works and Colorado's.....Utah's is much better. In Utah anyone can draw a limited entry tag, the more points you have the better your chances. In Colorado only the highest point holders will draw, in the latest draw if you didn't have 11 or 12 points for elk in unit 10 you better plan on doing something else. In Utah at least everyone has a chance. I believe it is worth the wait, I have been patient and have been unable to put in for deer or antelope in the limited entry units while I wait. If you only have 3 or 4 points, you have probably put in for deer or antelope but I have chosen to stay with elk. Utah's is a fair system and we have some of the best elk hunting in the west.
I would like to see the DWR add a few more tags to the mix, but overall it is good the way it is.

Thanks,
EH4
 
EH4
I would have to disagree with Utah having a better draw system than Colorado.If Utah would put a 4 year bonus point eligibility requirement on their ltd elk hunts, with 11 bonus points you would have drawn a permit by now, because you wouldn't be competeing with all those guys with less than 4 points. That is probably why you drew Colorado with only 8 points and have yet to pull a tag in Utah.
Like someone who has already responded to this post said, "we are dealing with extremes," when we need to find the medium that will benifit both sides of the fence. The true argument of this form shouldn't be quanity vs quality it should be "How many more tags can we issue without affecting the quality". It seems that the reoccuring theme on this post for the supporters of quality is that they feel by issuing more tags (even a small amount) will decrease the quality, however you need to realize that not everyone who draws a tag has the patience, skill, or even desire to kill a 350 plus bull.

cabinfever
 
YA

AND THOSE WHO DO NOT HAVE THE PATIENCE,SKILL,OR DESIRE TO TAKE A 350 PLUS BULL OUGHT TO HUNT THE GENERAL SEASON AREA'S!!!

THE ONLY bobcat WANTING TO SEE QUALITY IN QUALITY AREA'S!!!
 
Well said cabin! The increase of permits is not going to decimate the elk herds as several have tried to say it will. The increases they are looking at are nowhere near enough to put the quality down to raghorns. The DWR is very proud of our elk herd and they only want to tweak it slightly to allow for more opportunity. The public not only wants it as a whole, they deserve it. We all help pay for the herds and we all have the right to apply for these hunts even if we don't kill a 350 + bull. When the majority of units are producing 400+ bulls I would say there could be a higher harvest without hurting the herds! Have a great day!

Chad
 
I have to agree with some points from both sides. The opportunity would be nice. but personally, I prefer quality over quantity.
I hunt with a bow and arrow and would love to see the hunt moved into the rut for primitive weapons. I do not beleive this is going to happen. I don't have a problem with rifle hunters hunting during the rut at all. They drew the tag so they get the opportunity. In the meantime I will hunt the archery season and be perfectly happy doing so until I get lucky enough to draw a LE tag.
There are many hunters out there with max points, who can not seem to draw. I beleive that the largest number of tags should go to these hunters. The hunters with the most points (the ones who have waited the longest) should have a better opportunity than those who don't have as many points. Arizona sems to have this concept down just fine.
I have 1 point. I will wait my turn patiently and when I draw, I will hunt hard. If a 5 point raghorn walks by, within range of my bow, I will proudly hang my tag on my "trophy".
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-27-04 AT 08:56AM (MST)[p]The way I understand the program, half of the permits in each hunt go to the applicants with the most bonus points. So take an elk unit with say 16 permits, and 1800 applicants, of which say 400 of them have max points. This means that 8 of these permits would go into the pool for 400 hunters. That odds now are 1:50 for max point holders, and then the unsucessful applicants go back into the regular draw for the final 8 permits, so now the odds for the rest of the permits is 1:224, if all the applicants are equal. I heard that you get one chance put in for each bonus point you have which then throws the odds off significantly based on how many points each applicant has. This is a great system for units that have quite a few permits, or not as many applicants, such as the primitive weapon hunts, etc. Except this year the Muzz hunt odds jumped on some units due to the reduction of permits down to 15%. I feel the system works, but if you are compaining about having max points and no tags, it is usually because it is a "HIGH QUALITY" unit and has a lot of applications.
If I am wrong, please correct me. This is just my interpretation and opinion of how the system works.
It is frustrating to apply year after year, but if you play the odds and have 3 or 4 units you can choose from, you can swing the luck your way to a degree. Most archers with max elk points have been drawn, and I believe that in the deer draw, max points were filled a couple years ago..JMO..
a*r
A bad day hunting is better than a Good Day at Work!!
 
In Utah the point system works this way. Each applicant is awarded a point for an application for the past ten years you have been able to accumulate these points. In 2004 someone could have eleven points awarded if they had put in since the inception of the point system. These points then allow you to draw a placing for each point. Example a person (applicant #1) with eleven points would be randomly drawn for eleven placings(i.e 20, 21,22,23,29,30,35,36,50,55,60) a person (applicant #2) applying for the first time would draw one placing (i.e 15) and person (applicant #3) with four points would be awarded four placings(i.e. 10,24,31,32). Maximum point holders would be in a pool for half of the permits, after this draw all other applicants including max point holders(who did not draw) would be in the remaining 50 percent tags.
In this example lets say three permits are drawn and another maximum point holder (applicant #4) (eleven points) had been awarded these placings (i.e. 1,100,200,500 etc.). Each applicant goes into the drawing with only their lowest placing.
Applicant #1 = 20
Applicant #2 = 15 *** receives permit as the next lowest number holder.
Applicant #3 = 10 **receives permit for all others as his number is the lowest drawn of the remaining applicants.
Applicant #4 = 1 **receives permit for maximum point holder as his number is the lowest.
As you can see points allow you an oppportunity of drawing a low placing but as far your chance of having that number get you a permit everyone has one chance and permits go to the lowest number holders.
Keep in mind numbers are not drawn per specific unit but by species so all elk hunters are given a placing then assigned to the unit they applied for.
A hunter could draw the north cache with number 1000, while a hunter may not draw the boulder with number 15. Last year you may have had number 20 and been 1 place out of a tag and this year have number 200 and draw as applicants change units or vice-versa. This compounds your actual odds of drawing as each year does not necessarily get you closer to the top it only gives you one more chance of drawing a low number. Yes it is true that each year a number of max point holders draw which improves odds for the max point holder pool. However, for everyone else the odds never get better until this pool is completely gone under the current scenario of 2800 max point holders and 750 permits going to them it will take 4 years for odds to begin improving and then it will only be for the people holding 15 points.
This is the principle of compounding, if the point pool was a bank account somone would be getting rich. As it is most first year applicants in 2004 will die before ever drawing a tag if the system is not changed. Statistically it will take 113 years for a 2004 (1st time) applicant to be guaranteed a tag compound that for a 2005 applicant with the rate of inflation ( % of new applicants over the past 3 years) it will take them almost 300 years.

The question I ask is: In a few years when it is obvious the point system is failing new hunters, do we change? And if we do change how will everyone with 15 points feel about the fact 15 years of investing has left them broke?

Again it is the principle of supply and demand. We have created a demand much greater than our current supply (i.e. driven by a desire to have "quality") prices will rise and opportunity will fall. The solution is to balance supply and demand can it be done, it sure can and there are states doing it, however you cant' do it by 100 percent success hunts. Somewhere and somehow a mean needs to be established. I hope there are enough people on the elk committe who actually understand strategies, economics, and are open minded enough to look towards the future and invest for ten, twenty, one hundred years from now.

As someone who has spent a great deal of time researching elk hunting methods and strategies along with herd dynamics, I will wait my turn in Utah and look elsewhere to hunt states that truly manage for both quality and quantity. Unfortunately in Utah a vocal minority is creating the inflation.
 

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