Mule Deer Proposal

Simpleton

Simpleton

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Below is the proposal that was shared with me a few months back. I now know for a fact that this proposal has been submitted to the MD Committee and other DWR officials as they've heard back directly from Dax. I'm simply sharing it with the MM community as I asked the group that wrote it if they minded, and they said to feel free to share it. Interestingly, it is pretty similar to what Vanilla recently posted on another thread. I am curious what the reactions will be, although, I have my own guesses.

There are two main topics (Deer Point Consolidation and Proposed Season Changes)
Forgive the formatting as pasting it into this box doesn't line everything up right, but I am sure you'll get the info all the same.

Deer Point Consolidation​



This part of the proposal is to transition Utah buck deer points from 3 separate classes into 1. Currently it is possible for single hunter to accrue points for limited entry, dedicated hunter and general season deer. We propose combining them into a single point system. In this there will be a couple of hurdles that must be accounted for:

  • Lifetime license holders
  • This can be addressed by maintaining a general designation on hunts that are currently a part of the general season group. This still provides a space for lifetime license holders that is equivalent to the current system. Going forward the Division will have flexibility to add or remove the general designation as they see fit.
  • Currently there are 3887 LL Holders. This is 7% of all current General Season Buck Deer Tags.
  • Options for LL Holders
  • Option A - Allowed to put in for LE Designated Permits, if they draw they lose their Buck Deer Points, if they don’t draw they have the option to select a General Designated Permit and keep their Buck Deer Points, but not gain an additional point or choose to not select a General Designation permit and gain an additional point. – We believe this is the best option as it doesn’t take away the LL Holder’s ability to choose a General Permit each year, but it also doesn’t provide an added bonus to LL Holders over everyone else in building points.
  • Option B – Allowed to put in for LE Designated Permits, if they draw they lose their Buck Deer Points, if they don’t draw they have the option to select a General Designated Permit and spend their Buck Deer Points
  • Option C - Allowed to put in for LE Designated Permits, if they draw they lose their Buck Deer Points, if they don’t draw they have the option to select a General Designated Permit and keep their Buck Deer Points, and gain an additional point.
  • Individuals holding points in multiple deer categories
  • The option that we see having the least resistance from the public would be to add all current deer points per sportsman to give them a new buck deer point total. This option eliminates any push back or issues from someone “losing” something that they purchased. An average could do the same without the "look" of having excessively high point totals.
  • The committee could come up with an alternate solution to this as well.
  • Multiple species application
  • Currently if someone applies for an LE Deer Permit, they are not allowed to apply for either LE Elk or LE Antelope.
  • Option A – Leave this rule as is and follow the designation of Limited Entry Deer Hunts. If an applicant applies for a buck deer permit with a LE Designation, they would not be allowed to apply for a LE Elk or Antelope Permit – We believe this is the best option to not impact point creep of Elk and Antelope in a negative fashion.
  • Option B - Make a designation that allows someone who chooses to put in for any Deer Hunt to be allowed to put in for either LE Elk or LE Antelope – This has potential to increase point creep for Elk and Antelope.
  • Option C – Allow residents to apply for all 3 species as non-residents already can. – This will certainly increase point creep for Elk and Antelope.
  • Option D – Residents would have to choose to apply for 1 of the three (Elk, Deer, or Antelope) – This would have the largest impact on point creep, but is likely to have the highest degree of pushback from the public.
  • Dedicated Hunter Program
  • Our proposal would be to eliminate the program, but we believe there is middle ground to be found where you could do a single year, multi-season hunt on current “general season” units. This hunt would include either the additional requirement to purchase hours for a year of dedicated hunter hours or the option to work project hours (12 hours).
  • This tag would cost the same as a LE Buck Deer Tag currently costs. This would increase revenue from this program due to enrolling the total quota annually as well as application fees each year. It would also increase the annual hours worked/hours purchased from an average of 10.67 to 12 per successful applicant per year.
  • This “Multi-Season” hunt would be designated as a Limited Entry Permit, but would only be valid for the hunts within a specific unit that have a General Designation. This would be to ensure that Lifetime License Holders would not be able to select this permit, but they could still apply for it. This is the same as how the Dedicated Hunter Program currently treats Lifetime License Holders.
  • Let sportsman that are currently in the dedicated hunter program finish their remaining term as is.
  • Tag allocation for this permit would be calculated as follows on a unit by unit basis:
  • Total Tag Allocation = Current Dedicated Hunter Permits
  • Year 1 – Multi-season Tag Allocation = Total Tag Allocation – #DHs currently in Year 2 – #DHs currently in Year 3
(There would be zero DHs in year one if the option is removed from the draw)
  • Year 2 – Multi-season Tag Allocation = Total Tag Allocation – #DHs currently in Year 3
  • Year 3 – Multi-season Tag Allocation= Total Tag Allocation
  • Youth Opportunity
  • For hunts with the general designation, provide 15% of these tags to youth only, at the time of drawing. If this limit is not fulfilled, the balance of the tags will be added into the regular draw. If the limit is fulfilled, any unsuccessful youth applicant is moved into the regular draw for another chance at a tag. This provides added opportunity for youth to draw a deer tag without impacting the LE style hunts.
  • Waiting Period
  • We propose the removal of waiting periods following the draw of any Limited Entry Buck Deer Permit
  • Fees and Revenue
  • We know that this change will impact application numbers. It would be up to the DWR or the committee to dictate what changes would need to be made to account for this. In our calculations this would be a reduction of $411,000 in tag applications. An application increase of $3.67 would cover this gap. It would be even less if the cost savings of the 2 draws that wouldn’t take place was accounted for. We do not know what this cost is.

Moving to a system that includes all buck deer hunts under one point system would remove the ability for a sportsman to “have their cake, and eat it too” with regard to deer. If an individual wants a high quality hunt, they can apply for a more coveted permit. If an individual wants to hunt deer more frequently, they can apply for a “lesser” general designated permit. What this stops is the ability for an individual to continue to hunt every season for deer while also pushing point creep to new heights by applying for LE tags. If an applicant obtains any buck deer tag (drawn, alternate award, or leftover purchase) they would spend their accumulated points. Having all deer points be deer points is more reflective of other western states, but still maintains Utah’s uniqueness by applying the Utah bonus point system to the draw where points are rewarded, but everyone still has a chance to draw out.


This proposal will simplify the system for hunters to understand. It will promote youth engagement as they will have more opportunity. This will also reduce point creep. Because of the sportsmen that are applying for 2 or 3 deer tags at one time, you will now have 25% less applications for the same number of deer tags. Over the long run as sportsmen weigh the option to hunt multiple tags in their lifetime vs. the once in a lifetime feel that the most coveted deer tags now realistically are. Overall, this proposal puts the choice in each sportsman’s hands based on whether they value hunting more frequently or higher quality areas less frequently.


We understand that the committee is only looking at deer at this point, but we do feel this would be even more effective if Elk followed suit. It would require General Season elk to be broken into units and to be in the draw system for any season with a limited quota.


Proposed Hunting Seasons​

One of the topics that is a point of frustration for many hunters we speak with is crowding. We understand that tag numbers and economic factors play a large part in how everything works. We are not proposing a tag increase or decrease. We are simply proposing to split up the existing seasons to have less hunters afield at the same time. This would require more hunts, with shorter season dates. This proposal is pertaining to general season deer units. This split, if paired with the proposal above, would also create a spread of options from very desirable to less desirable which would make a landing spot for people who are currently in the middle of “no-man’s land” in terms of points.



Archery

Split into two seasons

  • Season 1 – General Designation – First two weeks of current archery season – 45% of current tags
  • Season 2 – General Designation – Second two weeks of current archery season - 53% of current tags
  • Season 3 - Limited Entry Designation - Starts the first Saturday after the Late Muzzleloader ends. Runs for 7 days. – 2% of current tags (Due to LE Designation, these permits would also increase revenue)


Muzzleloader

  • Split into two seasons
  • Season 1 – General Designation – First 5 days of the current Muzzleloader – 40%
  • Season 2 – General Designation – Starts the day after season 1 ends and goes for the same amount of days. – 60%


Early ALW (where applicable)

Leave as is. – General Designation



ALW

  • Split into two season
  • Season 1 – General Designation – First 5 days of current dates – 60%
  • Season 2 – General Designation – Starts day after season 1 ends and goes for the same amount of days. – 40%


Late Muzzleloader (LE) on General Season Units

Leave as is. – Limited Entry Designation



Multi-Season (LE) on General Season Units

Replaces Dedicated Hunter with a single year program – Limited Entry Designation (same number of tags as current dedicated hunter program)


Extended Archery

Create a hunt that covers all the Extended Archery Areas. This tag is unlimited and is the only tag that allows you to hunt the Extended Archery Areas. This season would start the day after Season 2 Archery ends and would go through the current dates of the Extended Archery Areas. Because this is unlimited, it would remove tag pressure from people who are applying for archery tags just to hunt the extended. These tags could be purchased OTC by anyone that was unsuccessful in the draw without impacting their points. This would be the only buck deer permit that we would recommend not taking points as it would be an additional opportunity for anyone who was unsuccessful in all the draws. – General Designation
 
Simpleton said:
Season 3 - Limited Entry Designation - Starts the first Saturday after the Late Muzzleloader ends. Runs for 7 days. – 2% of current tags (Due to LE Designation, these permits would also increase revenue)
Click to expand...
You lost me right here. This must be coming from an archery group who wants the cake and be able to eat it too. One month broke into two seasons or extended is plenty when you want to cut everyone else to five days. You want to hunt rutting bucks with a bow, do it on the extended.
 
I like a lot of it. Maybe is missed it, but would the points be bonus points or preference points? If bonus, would it stay the 50/50 split for drawing?
 
The third archery season is obviously an opportunity grab by someone(s) on the committee. This is typical of how things work in Utah, but it comes as no surprise to me.

I also have some concern with the idea of combining points that people have accumulated from the General and LE hunts. Probably not a big problem for most people, but I can imagine that there are some people near the top of the LE point ladder getting screwed by others that might have been accumulating points for the General season hunts. I burned 24 elk points last year and I am sitting on 25 sheep points. I know how tough it is to wait that long and then hear rumblings of abolishing the point system or changing the way permits are allocated. I think it would be better to:
1) let people keep the larger number of General or LE points (not both), or
2) tell people that General points will be erased in two or three years, allowing people to burn points, or
3) let people keep General and LE points in separate pools, allowing them to earn or burn one or the other each year, but not both.
I think option 3 is actually the best, but it might be too complicated for some folks.
 
I used to be vehemently against any proposal like this. The last couple years I’ve listened to enough people on these online forums whine about things they simply don’t understand that it’s making me think this is the only way forward for tag distribution. They have to lump elk and pronghorn tags in the same way. No more separate draws for antlerless.

I would oppose the late archery hunt. You don’t need to go first, get zone really longer seasons, have the extended, and then get rut hunts across the state to go along with it. Way too many demands in that one.

Let’s be VERY clear about all this regarding one thing, however. This will not help increase our big game herds at all. So if this is all the mule deer committee comes up with, they’ve failed.
 
Vanilla said:
I used to be vehemently against any proposal like this. The last couple years I’ve listened to enough people on these online forums whine about things they simply don’t understand that it’s making me think this is the only way forward for tag distribution. They have to lump elk and pronghorn tags in the same way. No more separate draws for antlerless.

I would oppose the late archery hunt. You don’t need to go first, get zone really longer seasons, have the extended, and then get rut hunts across the state to go along with it. Way too many demands in that one.

Let’s be VERY clear about all this regarding one thing, however. This will not help increase our big game herds at all. So if this is all the mule deer committee comes up with, they’ve failed.
Click to expand...

I may be interpreting it differently than you guys, but the way I read it, no one could hunt all of those seasons. You would have to choose to apply for one of them (1st, 2nd, or late). If you do not draw any of them, you would have the chance to buy an extended archery permit. Even if you drew what would be the new multiseason tag, you would only hunt the season dates with the general designation. No one could hunt either of the early and the late archery no matter what tag they drew. I viewed it more as a way to offer more mid-level quality hunts without adding tags, which would give a good spread from easy to hard in terms of difficult to draw. Very similar to what they did when they added the late muzzy on general areas.

If you look at the tag percentages, any tag for the same weapon comes from the current distribution already. Also, all hunt lengths are cut down, including archery. Technically, by the percentages and days, archery took the biggest cut in length. Seemed pretty fair to me, especially considering muzzy and archery guys already get significantly less total tags than ALW. All 3 weapon types would have their tags split out between 3 seasons.

And just for the record, the guys I know that put this together are not part of an archery group. The majority of them have been in the dedicated program since its inception.
 
gundog2 said:
The third archery season is obviously an opportunity grab by someone(s) on the committee. This is typical of how things work in Utah, but it comes as no surprise to me.

I also have some concern with the idea of combining points that people have accumulated from the General and LE hunts. Probably not a big problem for most people, but I can imagine that there are some people near the top of the LE point ladder getting screwed by others that might have been accumulating points for the General season hunts. I burned 24 elk points last year and I am sitting on 25 sheep points. I know how tough it is to wait that long and then hear rumblings of abolishing the point system or changing the way permits are allocated. I think it would be better to:
1) let people keep the larger number of General or LE points (not both), or
2) tell people that General points will be erased in two or three years, allowing people to burn points, or
3) let people keep General and LE points in separate pools, allowing them to earn or burn one or the other each year, but not both.
I think option 3 is actually the best, but it might be too complicated for some folks.
Click to expand...
When I read it, I actually thought of your option 1 as being one of the better solutions.
 
Blackie6 said:
I like a lot of it. Maybe is missed it, but would the points be bonus points or preference points? If bonus, would it stay the 50/50 split for drawing?
Click to expand...

Simpleton said:
Having all deer points be deer points is more reflective of other western states, but still maintains Utah’s uniqueness by applying the Utah bonus point system to the draw where points are rewarded, but everyone still has a chance to draw out.
Click to expand...
My impression of this is that it would be bonus and the split would remain 50/50.
 
Why do archery guys still get an OTC area that doesent burn points? I don't have a problem merging the 3 systems, but finding a fair way to do it seems pretty hard. Just hunters continuing to fight with hunters over the same set of tags.
 
Simpleton said:
Below is the proposal that was shared with me a few months back. I now know for a fact that this proposal has been submitted to the MD Committee and other DWR officials as they've heard back directly from Dax. I'm simply sharing it with the MM community as I asked the group that wrote it if they minded, and they said to feel free to share it. Interestingly, it is pretty similar to what Vanilla recently posted on another thread. I am curious what the reactions will be, although, I have my own guesses.

There are two main topics (Deer Point Consolidation and Proposed Season Changes)
Forgive the formatting as pasting it into this box doesn't line everything up right, but I am sure you'll get the info all the same.

Deer Point Consolidation​



This part of the proposal is to transition Utah buck deer points from 3 separate classes into 1. Currently it is possible for single hunter to accrue points for limited entry, dedicated hunter and general season deer. We propose combining them into a single point system. In this there will be a couple of hurdles that must be accounted for:

  • Lifetime license holders
  • This can be addressed by maintaining a general designation on hunts that are currently a part of the general season group. This still provides a space for lifetime license holders that is equivalent to the current system. Going forward the Division will have flexibility to add or remove the general designation as they see fit.
  • Currently there are 3887 LL Holders. This is 7% of all current General Season Buck Deer Tags.
  • Options for LL Holders
  • Option A - Allowed to put in for LE Designated Permits, if they draw they lose their Buck Deer Points, if they don’t draw they have the option to select a General Designated Permit and keep their Buck Deer Points, but not gain an additional point or choose to not select a General Designation permit and gain an additional point. – We believe this is the best option as it doesn’t take away the LL Holder’s ability to choose a General Permit each year, but it also doesn’t provide an added bonus to LL Holders over everyone else in building points.
  • Option B – Allowed to put in for LE Designated Permits, if they draw they lose their Buck Deer Points, if they don’t draw they have the option to select a General Designated Permit and spend their Buck Deer Points
  • Option C - Allowed to put in for LE Designated Permits, if they draw they lose their Buck Deer Points, if they don’t draw they have the option to select a General Designated Permit and keep their Buck Deer Points, and gain an additional point.
  • Individuals holding points in multiple deer categories
  • The option that we see having the least resistance from the public would be to add all current deer points per sportsman to give them a new buck deer point total. This option eliminates any push back or issues from someone “losing” something that they purchased. An average could do the same without the "look" of having excessively high point totals.
  • The committee could come up with an alternate solution to this as well.
  • Multiple species application
  • Currently if someone applies for an LE Deer Permit, they are not allowed to apply for either LE Elk or LE Antelope.
  • Option A – Leave this rule as is and follow the designation of Limited Entry Deer Hunts. If an applicant applies for a buck deer permit with a LE Designation, they would not be allowed to apply for a LE Elk or Antelope Permit – We believe this is the best option to not impact point creep of Elk and Antelope in a negative fashion.
  • Option B - Make a designation that allows someone who chooses to put in for any Deer Hunt to be allowed to put in for either LE Elk or LE Antelope – This has potential to increase point creep for Elk and Antelope.
  • Option C – Allow residents to apply for all 3 species as non-residents already can. – This will certainly increase point creep for Elk and Antelope.
  • Option D – Residents would have to choose to apply for 1 of the three (Elk, Deer, or Antelope) – This would have the largest impact on point creep, but is likely to have the highest degree of pushback from the public.
  • Dedicated Hunter Program
  • Our proposal would be to eliminate the program, but we believe there is middle ground to be found where you could do a single year, multi-season hunt on current “general season” units. This hunt would include either the additional requirement to purchase hours for a year of dedicated hunter hours or the option to work project hours (12 hours).
  • This tag would cost the same as a LE Buck Deer Tag currently costs. This would increase revenue from this program due to enrolling the total quota annually as well as application fees each year. It would also increase the annual hours worked/hours purchased from an average of 10.67 to 12 per successful applicant per year.
  • This “Multi-Season” hunt would be designated as a Limited Entry Permit, but would only be valid for the hunts within a specific unit that have a General Designation. This would be to ensure that Lifetime License Holders would not be able to select this permit, but they could still apply for it. This is the same as how the Dedicated Hunter Program currently treats Lifetime License Holders.
  • Let sportsman that are currently in the dedicated hunter program finish their remaining term as is.
  • Tag allocation for this permit would be calculated as follows on a unit by unit basis:
  • Total Tag Allocation = Current Dedicated Hunter Permits
  • Year 1 – Multi-season Tag Allocation = Total Tag Allocation – #DHs currently in Year 2 – #DHs currently in Year 3
(There would be zero DHs in year one if the option is removed from the draw)
  • Year 2 – Multi-season Tag Allocation = Total Tag Allocation – #DHs currently in Year 3
  • Year 3 – Multi-season Tag Allocation= Total Tag Allocation
  • Youth Opportunity
  • For hunts with the general designation, provide 15% of these tags to youth only, at the time of drawing. If this limit is not fulfilled, the balance of the tags will be added into the regular draw. If the limit is fulfilled, any unsuccessful youth applicant is moved into the regular draw for another chance at a tag. This provides added opportunity for youth to draw a deer tag without impacting the LE style hunts.
  • Waiting Period
  • We propose the removal of waiting periods following the draw of any Limited Entry Buck Deer Permit
  • Fees and Revenue
  • We know that this change will impact application numbers. It would be up to the DWR or the committee to dictate what changes would need to be made to account for this. In our calculations this would be a reduction of $411,000 in tag applications. An application increase of $3.67 would cover this gap. It would be even less if the cost savings of the 2 draws that wouldn’t take place was accounted for. We do not know what this cost is.

Moving to a system that includes all buck deer hunts under one point system would remove the ability for a sportsman to “have their cake, and eat it too” with regard to deer. If an individual wants a high quality hunt, they can apply for a more coveted permit. If an individual wants to hunt deer more frequently, they can apply for a “lesser” general designated permit. What this stops is the ability for an individual to continue to hunt every season for deer while also pushing point creep to new heights by applying for LE tags. If an applicant obtains any buck deer tag (drawn, alternate award, or leftover purchase) they would spend their accumulated points. Having all deer points be deer points is more reflective of other western states, but still maintains Utah’s uniqueness by applying the Utah bonus point system to the draw where points are rewarded, but everyone still has a chance to draw out.


This proposal will simplify the system for hunters to understand. It will promote youth engagement as they will have more opportunity. This will also reduce point creep. Because of the sportsmen that are applying for 2 or 3 deer tags at one time, you will now have 25% less applications for the same number of deer tags. Over the long run as sportsmen weigh the option to hunt multiple tags in their lifetime vs. the once in a lifetime feel that the most coveted deer tags now realistically are. Overall, this proposal puts the choice in each sportsman’s hands based on whether they value hunting more frequently or higher quality areas less frequently.


We understand that the committee is only looking at deer at this point, but we do feel this would be even more effective if Elk followed suit. It would require General Season elk to be broken into units and to be in the draw system for any season with a limited quota.


Proposed Hunting Seasons​

One of the topics that is a point of frustration for many hunters we speak with is crowding. We understand that tag numbers and economic factors play a large part in how everything works. We are not proposing a tag increase or decrease. We are simply proposing to split up the existing seasons to have less hunters afield at the same time. This would require more hunts, with shorter season dates. This proposal is pertaining to general season deer units. This split, if paired with the proposal above, would also create a spread of options from very desirable to less desirable which would make a landing spot for people who are currently in the middle of “no-man’s land” in terms of points.



Archery

Split into two seasons

  • Season 1 – General Designation – First two weeks of current archery season – 45% of current tags
  • Season 2 – General Designation – Second two weeks of current archery season - 53% of current tags
  • Season 3 - Limited Entry Designation - Starts the first Saturday after the Late Muzzleloader ends. Runs for 7 days. – 2% of current tags (Due to LE Designation, these permits would also increase revenue)


Muzzleloader

  • Split into two seasons
  • Season 1 – General Designation – First 5 days of the current Muzzleloader – 40%
  • Season 2 – General Designation – Starts the day after season 1 ends and goes for the same amount of days. – 60%


Early ALW (where applicable)

Leave as is. – General Designation



ALW

  • Split into two season
  • Season 1 – General Designation – First 5 days of current dates – 60%
  • Season 2 – General Designation – Starts day after season 1 ends and goes for the same amount of days. – 40%


Late Muzzleloader (LE) on General Season Units

Leave as is. – Limited Entry Designation



Multi-Season (LE) on General Season Units

Replaces Dedicated Hunter with a single year program – Limited Entry Designation (same number of tags as current dedicated hunter program)


Extended Archery

Create a hunt that covers all the Extended Archery Areas. This tag is unlimited and is the only tag that allows you to hunt the Extended Archery Areas. This season would start the day after Season 2 Archery ends and would go through the current dates of the Extended Archery Areas. Because this is unlimited, it would remove tag pressure from people who are applying for archery tags just to hunt the extended. These tags could be purchased OTC by anyone that was unsuccessful in the draw without impacting their points. This would be the only buck deer permit that we would recommend not taking points as it would be an additional opportunity for anyone who was unsuccessful in all the draws. – General Designation
Click to expand...
I did not see mention that if a person buys a landowner buck tag that would also take away his/her accumulated Deer points?
 
It needs to be if you have a mule deer tag, you lose points. Period. No exceptions.

Not for the expo. Not for auction tags. Not if you buy a landowner or CWMU tag. If you obtain a mule deer tag, you are at 0 mule deer points the next year no matter what.

People always like to gripe about point creep and then seem completely unwilling to do the things necessary to address it.
 
Simpleton said:
Below is the proposal that was shared with me a few months back. I now know for a fact that this proposal has been submitted to the MD Committee and other DWR officials as they've heard back directly from Dax. I'm simply sharing it with the MM community as I asked the group that wrote it if they minded, and they said to feel free to share it. Interestingly, it is pretty similar to what Vanilla recently posted on another thread. I am curious what the reactions will be, although, I have my own guesses.

There are two main topics (Deer Point Consolidation and Proposed Season Changes)
Forgive the formatting as pasting it into this box doesn't line everything up right, but I am sure you'll get the info all the same.

Deer Point Consolidation​



This part of the proposal is to transition Utah buck deer points from 3 separate classes into 1. Currently it is possible for single hunter to accrue points for limited entry, dedicated hunter and general season deer. We propose combining them into a single point system. In this there will be a couple of hurdles that must be accounted for:

  • Lifetime license holders
  • This can be addressed by maintaining a general designation on hunts that are currently a part of the general season group. This still provides a space for lifetime license holders that is equivalent to the current system. Going forward the Division will have flexibility to add or remove the general designation as they see fit.
  • Currently there are 3887 LL Holders. This is 7% of all current General Season Buck Deer Tags.
  • Options for LL Holders
  • Option A - Allowed to put in for LE Designated Permits, if they draw they lose their Buck Deer Points, if they don’t draw they have the option to select a General Designated Permit and keep their Buck Deer Points, but not gain an additional point or choose to not select a General Designation permit and gain an additional point. – We believe this is the best option as it doesn’t take away the LL Holder’s ability to choose a General Permit each year, but it also doesn’t provide an added bonus to LL Holders over everyone else in building points.
  • Option B – Allowed to put in for LE Designated Permits, if they draw they lose their Buck Deer Points, if they don’t draw they have the option to select a General Designated Permit and spend their Buck Deer Points
  • Option C - Allowed to put in for LE Designated Permits, if they draw they lose their Buck Deer Points, if they don’t draw they have the option to select a General Designated Permit and keep their Buck Deer Points, and gain an additional point.
  • Individuals holding points in multiple deer categories
  • The option that we see having the least resistance from the public would be to add all current deer points per sportsman to give them a new buck deer point total. This option eliminates any push back or issues from someone “losing” something that they purchased. An average could do the same without the "look" of having excessively high point totals.
  • The committee could come up with an alternate solution to this as well.
  • Multiple species application
  • Currently if someone applies for an LE Deer Permit, they are not allowed to apply for either LE Elk or LE Antelope.
  • Option A – Leave this rule as is and follow the designation of Limited Entry Deer Hunts. If an applicant applies for a buck deer permit with a LE Designation, they would not be allowed to apply for a LE Elk or Antelope Permit – We believe this is the best option to not impact point creep of Elk and Antelope in a negative fashion.
  • Option B - Make a designation that allows someone who chooses to put in for any Deer Hunt to be allowed to put in for either LE Elk or LE Antelope – This has potential to increase point creep for Elk and Antelope.
  • Option C – Allow residents to apply for all 3 species as non-residents already can. – This will certainly increase point creep for Elk and Antelope.
  • Option D – Residents would have to choose to apply for 1 of the three (Elk, Deer, or Antelope) – This would have the largest impact on point creep, but is likely to have the highest degree of pushback from the public.
  • Dedicated Hunter Program
  • Our proposal would be to eliminate the program, but we believe there is middle ground to be found where you could do a single year, multi-season hunt on current “general season” units. This hunt would include either the additional requirement to purchase hours for a year of dedicated hunter hours or the option to work project hours (12 hours).
  • This tag would cost the same as a LE Buck Deer Tag currently costs. This would increase revenue from this program due to enrolling the total quota annually as well as application fees each year. It would also increase the annual hours worked/hours purchased from an average of 10.67 to 12 per successful applicant per year.
  • This “Multi-Season” hunt would be designated as a Limited Entry Permit, but would only be valid for the hunts within a specific unit that have a General Designation. This would be to ensure that Lifetime License Holders would not be able to select this permit, but they could still apply for it. This is the same as how the Dedicated Hunter Program currently treats Lifetime License Holders.
  • Let sportsman that are currently in the dedicated hunter program finish their remaining term as is.
  • Tag allocation for this permit would be calculated as follows on a unit by unit basis:
  • Total Tag Allocation = Current Dedicated Hunter Permits
  • Year 1 – Multi-season Tag Allocation = Total Tag Allocation – #DHs currently in Year 2 – #DHs currently in Year 3
(There would be zero DHs in year one if the option is removed from the draw)
  • Year 2 – Multi-season Tag Allocation = Total Tag Allocation – #DHs currently in Year 3
  • Year 3 – Multi-season Tag Allocation= Total Tag Allocation
  • Youth Opportunity
  • For hunts with the general designation, provide 15% of these tags to youth only, at the time of drawing. If this limit is not fulfilled, the balance of the tags will be added into the regular draw. If the limit is fulfilled, any unsuccessful youth applicant is moved into the regular draw for another chance at a tag. This provides added opportunity for youth to draw a deer tag without impacting the LE style hunts.
  • Waiting Period
  • We propose the removal of waiting periods following the draw of any Limited Entry Buck Deer Permit
  • Fees and Revenue
  • We know that this change will impact application numbers. It would be up to the DWR or the committee to dictate what changes would need to be made to account for this. In our calculations this would be a reduction of $411,000 in tag applications. An application increase of $3.67 would cover this gap. It would be even less if the cost savings of the 2 draws that wouldn’t take place was accounted for. We do not know what this cost is.

Moving to a system that includes all buck deer hunts under one point system would remove the ability for a sportsman to “have their cake, and eat it too” with regard to deer. If an individual wants a high quality hunt, they can apply for a more coveted permit. If an individual wants to hunt deer more frequently, they can apply for a “lesser” general designated permit. What this stops is the ability for an individual to continue to hunt every season for deer while also pushing point creep to new heights by applying for LE tags. If an applicant obtains any buck deer tag (drawn, alternate award, or leftover purchase) they would spend their accumulated points. Having all deer points be deer points is more reflective of other western states, but still maintains Utah’s uniqueness by applying the Utah bonus point system to the draw where points are rewarded, but everyone still has a chance to draw out.


This proposal will simplify the system for hunters to understand. It will promote youth engagement as they will have more opportunity. This will also reduce point creep. Because of the sportsmen that are applying for 2 or 3 deer tags at one time, you will now have 25% less applications for the same number of deer tags. Over the long run as sportsmen weigh the option to hunt multiple tags in their lifetime vs. the once in a lifetime feel that the most coveted deer tags now realistically are. Overall, this proposal puts the choice in each sportsman’s hands based on whether they value hunting more frequently or higher quality areas less frequently.


We understand that the committee is only looking at deer at this point, but we do feel this would be even more effective if Elk followed suit. It would require General Season elk to be broken into units and to be in the draw system for any season with a limited quota.


Proposed Hunting Seasons​

One of the topics that is a point of frustration for many hunters we speak with is crowding. We understand that tag numbers and economic factors play a large part in how everything works. We are not proposing a tag increase or decrease. We are simply proposing to split up the existing seasons to have less hunters afield at the same time. This would require more hunts, with shorter season dates. This proposal is pertaining to general season deer units. This split, if paired with the proposal above, would also create a spread of options from very desirable to less desirable which would make a landing spot for people who are currently in the middle of “no-man’s land” in terms of points.



Archery

Split into two seasons

  • Season 1 – General Designation – First two weeks of current archery season – 45% of current tags
  • Season 2 – General Designation – Second two weeks of current archery season - 53% of current tags
  • Season 3 - Limited Entry Designation - Starts the first Saturday after the Late Muzzleloader ends. Runs for 7 days. – 2% of current tags (Due to LE Designation, these permits would also increase revenue)


Muzzleloader

  • Split into two seasons
  • Season 1 – General Designation – First 5 days of the current Muzzleloader – 40%
  • Season 2 – General Designation – Starts the day after season 1 ends and goes for the same amount of days. – 60%


Early ALW (where applicable)

Leave as is. – General Designation



ALW

  • Split into two season
  • Season 1 – General Designation – First 5 days of current dates – 60%
  • Season 2 – General Designation – Starts day after season 1 ends and goes for the same amount of days. – 40%


Late Muzzleloader (LE) on General Season Units

Leave as is. – Limited Entry Designation



Multi-Season (LE) on General Season Units

Replaces Dedicated Hunter with a single year program – Limited Entry Designation (same number of tags as current dedicated hunter program)


Extended Archery

Create a hunt that covers all the Extended Archery Areas. This tag is unlimited and is the only tag that allows you to hunt the Extended Archery Areas. This season would start the day after Season 2 Archery ends and would go through the current dates of the Extended Archery Areas. Because this is unlimited, it would remove tag pressure from people who are applying for archery tags just to hunt the extended. These tags could be purchased OTC by anyone that was unsuccessful in the draw without impacting their points. This would be the only buck deer permit that we would recommend not taking points as it would be an additional opportunity for anyone who was unsuccessful in all the draws. – General Designation
Click to expand...
I don’t like the idea of combining limited and general deer points. Seem like it would reward guys that like points more hunting. 🤷‍♂️I would prefer giving the people with general points a year or two to burn those points, ( along with letting the current dedicated guys finish their term) then on to the new system. I would prefer to see the elk under the same system. You draw a tag, limited or general, you burn your points. But I’ll adjust to whatever is decided, and complain to my close friends and family. 😂
 
I still like the proposal that was brought up last year.

You have to pick your weapon. You will be stuck with this weapon for 3 years.

Every resident gets a tag starting out.

We run it on a 3 year deal. This is how it will work.

if you harvest on your first year you will not get another tag for 3 years.

If you harvest on your second year you will not get another tag for 3 years.

If you harvest on your 3rd year you will not get another tag for 3 years.

On average it takes 3 years to draw a tag anyways.

I know this sounds like it will be over crowded. You’re right it will be the first year. But I think you will see after the first year 25% of the hunter will have filled there tags , so the next year it will be less crowded and continue too be less on the 3rd year.

No more GS deer points.
 
The last thing we need to do is make more deer seasons. We need to cut it back. I'm not saying cut tags, but cut back all the early, mid, general, late, extended seasons. We need to give the wildlife a break from us for a few months before winter hits. Just my 2 cents.
 
Who comes up with all this bull shat? This isn't going to do a dang thing just like all the changes/bans that have happened the last few years. Muledeer herds are going to continue to be crap.
 
You split up into multiple season I doubt it will feel any less crowded. It will also be more pressure on the deer.

Guys and their posse will be hitting it hard every single day of their 5 day season.

Few if any are doing that for the entire general season as it stands.

You want less crowds? Hunt weekdays and skip opening weekend..
 
Not sure I agree with the direction this discussion is going but if it gains traction why not just bite the bullet and go totally random draw?

Would you need to limit the application by species or just limit it to one species per year?

If the idea is to simplify the process then apply for one species only and then do a random draw.

I'll even throw in the OIL species.
 
middlefork said:
Not sure I agree with the direction this discussion is going but if it gains traction why not just bite the bullet and go totally random draw?

Would you need to limit the application by species or just limit it to one species per year?

If the idea is to simplify the process then apply for one species only and then do a random draw.

I'll even throw in the OIL species.
Click to expand...
Maybe eliminate points by not getting a point for not drawing. Eventually, points will be gone. Keep it 50/50 on the draws. Maybe even 60/40.
 
The cycle is mind numbing:
Guy 1 -Trophy (self regulating) Hunter- I want to hunt big bucks
Guy 2 - (F'N - as Bess would say) Opportunist - I want to hunt every year
Guy 3 - Experience Seeker - I want to reduce crowding
Guy 4 - Online Mule Deer Biologist (probably) - I listened to 2 minutes of an hour long podcast. I think we should kill all the bucks.

Proposed solution sent to DWR (note it is proposed to them, not made by them or the MD Committee): split current hunts to create a spread of tags/hunts with varying quality and opportunity with shorter seasons to still essentially land on the same number of overall days open for hunting without adding or subtracting tag numbers. Guy 1, 2, 3 and 4 can apply for the tags as they wish to fit their wants.

Guy 1 - Wait.... what I meant was that I want to hunt big bucks, but I also want to have deer tags while I wait for my big buck tag. Also, that wait should be like 5 years max... gotta get my big bull tag in too. Right?
Guy 2 - Well... what I meant was I want to hunt every year, but I don't want to use my points so I can hunt the best unit in the state one day. But don't add tags, we don't want the general units overloaded with people and our herds can't handle that.
Guy 3 - That season is too short. Maybe I need to clarify, I want less people, but I don't want less days to hunt. But don't add additional pressure to our deer. That wouldn't be good. You know what I mean, right?
Guy 4 - But this won't kill all the bucks. There are going to be so many bucks that the does won't know which buck to be bred by and the fawns will surely die.
Guy 5,6,7... - peanut gallery master, statistical analyst, human behavior psychologist, Nostradamus, mule deer expert with 158 years of personal experience, and MM biologist with 5 PhDs after reading 1/4 of what was written and comprehending about half of that - our deer are still gonna suck. Guys will just shoot smaller deer faster. This won't help. Splitting the seasons puts too much pressure on our deer. We shouldn't cut tags, but we should put all the people in the field at the same time that will reduce pressure on our deer. AND my personal favorite: It won't reduce crowding, guys will still bring friends hunting with them! GASP-How dare they!?

The responses to this thread are perfect examples of why I do not envy the DWR nor the Deer Committee. They can't win. They will never please everyone. And most of those people who they can't please don't have the self awareness to recognize a compromise doesn't mean everyone except them.

People complain about how it is, but don't you dare send in a proposal for the deer committee to consider that could address the things we actually can...point creep and crowding. I think its pretty clear that we are in a place where we can no longer have it both ways. Or as the proposal said "have your cake and eat it too."

PS - the whole point of their proposal was not to fix the deer herd. In my conversations with them, it was their opinion that mule deer management (tag #s, objectives, habitat, etc) should be left to the biologists (the real ones). Input from the public should focus on social issues because, in general, that's all we are actually qualified to give actual input on. I fully agree with them. The division is just too polite to say that to half people that submit comments. Maybe they should start.

I am glad that there are people like the guys who actually submitted a proposal. I just am not sure why anyone would when all they do is get blasted.
 
Simpleton said:
I am glad that there are people like the guys who actually submitted a proposal. I just am not sure why anyone would when all they do is get blasted.
Click to expand...

I don’t even know who is on the committee, let alone how to submit a proposal to them.

Care to enlighten me?
 
Dang, wish we knew where this was going. I'm burning 9 preference points this year. For me, it would be sweet to suddenly have 9 points and no more waiting period for LE Deer. 😁
 
BrowningRage said:
Dang, wish we knew where this was going. I'm burning 9 preference points this year. For me, it would be sweet to suddenly have 9 points and no more waiting period for LE Deer. 😁
Click to expand...
Unless you really want to hunt this year, it may be wise to hold on to them a bit longer. I don't have any inside knowledge about anything but if I had a bunch of general points I would be holding on to them for at least one more year to see how thos all shakes out.
 
Simpleton said:
The cycle is mind numbing:
Guy 1 -Trophy (self regulating) Hunter- I want to hunt big bucks
Guy 2 - (F'N - as Bess would say) Opportunist - I want to hunt every year
Guy 3 - Experience Seeker - I want to reduce crowding
Guy 4 - Online Mule Deer Biologist (probably) - I listened to 2 minutes of an hour long podcast. I think we should kill all the bucks.

Proposed solution sent to DWR (note it is proposed to them, not made by them or the MD Committee): split current hunts to create a spread of tags/hunts with varying quality and opportunity with shorter seasons to still essentially land on the same number of overall days open for hunting without adding or subtracting tag numbers. Guy 1, 2, 3 and 4 can apply for the tags as they wish to fit their wants.

Guy 1 - Wait.... what I meant was that I want to hunt big bucks, but I also want to have deer tags while I wait for my big buck tag. Also, that wait should be like 5 years max... gotta get my big bull tag in too. Right?
Guy 2 - Well... what I meant was I want to hunt every year, but I don't want to use my points so I can hunt the best unit in the state one day. But don't add tags, we don't want the general units overloaded with people and our herds can't handle that.
Guy 3 - That season is too short. Maybe I need to clarify, I want less people, but I don't want less days to hunt. But don't add additional pressure to our deer. That wouldn't be good. You know what I mean, right?
Guy 4 - But this won't kill all the bucks. There are going to be so many bucks that the does won't know which buck to be bred by and the fawns will surely die.
Guy 5,6,7... - peanut gallery master, statistical analyst, human behavior psychologist, Nostradamus, mule deer expert with 158 years of personal experience, and MM biologist with 5 PhDs after reading 1/4 of what was written and comprehending about half of that - our deer are still gonna suck. Guys will just shoot smaller deer faster. This won't help. Splitting the seasons puts too much pressure on our deer. We shouldn't cut tags, but we should put all the people in the field at the same time that will reduce pressure on our deer. AND my personal favorite: It won't reduce crowding, guys will still bring friends hunting with them! GASP-How dare they!?

The responses to this thread are perfect examples of why I do not envy the DWR nor the Deer Committee. They can't win. They will never please everyone. And most of those people who they can't please don't have the self awareness to recognize a compromise doesn't mean everyone except them.

People complain about how it is, but don't you dare send in a proposal for the deer committee to consider that could address the things we actually can...point creep and crowding. I think its pretty clear that we are in a place where we can no longer have it both ways. Or as the proposal said "have your cake and eat it too."

PS - the whole point of their proposal was not to fix the deer herd. In my conversations with them, it was their opinion that mule deer management (tag #s, objectives, habitat, etc) should be left to the biologists (the real ones). Input from the public should focus on social issues because, in general, that's all we are actually qualified to give actual input on. I fully agree with them. The division is just too polite to say that to half people that submit comments. Maybe they should start.

I am glad that there are people like the guys who actually submitted a proposal. I just am not sure why anyone would when all they do is get blasted.
Click to expand...
Care to share who made the proposal?

Definitely a well thought out proposal, not sure where I land on it just yet, bit there is definitely some decent ideas in it.
 
Simpleton said:
The cycle is mind numbing:
Guy 1 -Trophy (self regulating) Hunter- I want to hunt big bucks
Guy 2 - (F'N - as Bess would say) Opportunist - I want to hunt every year
Guy 3 - Experience Seeker - I want to reduce crowding
Guy 4 - Online Mule Deer Biologist (probably) - I listened to 2 minutes of an hour long podcast. I think we should kill all the bucks.

Proposed solution sent to DWR (note it is proposed to them, not made by them or the MD Committee): split current hunts to create a spread of tags/hunts with varying quality and opportunity with shorter seasons to still essentially land on the same number of overall days open for hunting without adding or subtracting tag numbers. Guy 1, 2, 3 and 4 can apply for the tags as they wish to fit their wants.

Guy 1 - Wait.... what I meant was that I want to hunt big bucks, but I also want to have deer tags while I wait for my big buck tag. Also, that wait should be like 5 years max... gotta get my big bull tag in too. Right?
Guy 2 - Well... what I meant was I want to hunt every year, but I don't want to use my points so I can hunt the best unit in the state one day. But don't add tags, we don't want the general units overloaded with people and our herds can't handle that.
Guy 3 - That season is too short. Maybe I need to clarify, I want less people, but I don't want less days to hunt. But don't add additional pressure to our deer. That wouldn't be good. You know what I mean, right?
Guy 4 - But this won't kill all the bucks. There are going to be so many bucks that the does won't know which buck to be bred by and the fawns will surely die.
Guy 5,6,7... - peanut gallery master, statistical analyst, human behavior psychologist, Nostradamus, mule deer expert with 158 years of personal experience, and MM biologist with 5 PhDs after reading 1/4 of what was written and comprehending about half of that - our deer are still gonna suck. Guys will just shoot smaller deer faster. This won't help. Splitting the seasons puts too much pressure on our deer. We shouldn't cut tags, but we should put all the people in the field at the same time that will reduce pressure on our deer. AND my personal favorite: It won't reduce crowding, guys will still bring friends hunting with them! GASP-How dare they!?

The responses to this thread are perfect examples of why I do not envy the DWR nor the Deer Committee. They can't win. They will never please everyone. And most of those people who they can't please don't have the self awareness to recognize a compromise doesn't mean everyone except them.

People complain about how it is, but don't you dare send in a proposal for the deer committee to consider that could address the things we actually can...point creep and crowding. I think its pretty clear that we are in a place where we can no longer have it both ways. Or as the proposal said "have your cake and eat it too."

PS - the whole point of their proposal was not to fix the deer herd. In my conversations with them, it was their opinion that mule deer management (tag #s, objectives, habitat, etc) should be left to the biologists (the real ones). Input from the public should focus on social issues because, in general, that's all we are actually qualified to give actual input on. I fully agree with them. The division is just too polite to say that to half people that submit comments. Maybe they should start.

I am glad that there are people like the guys who actually submitted a proposal. I just am not sure why anyone would when all they do is get blasted.
Click to expand...
I am very glad it’s not my job to manage hunters. We will never, all be happy…a guy could be the only person in the whole unit filled with nice bucks, and he will complain about the weather..
 
JakeH said:
Care to share who made the proposal?

Definitely a well thought out proposal, not sure where I land on it just yet, bit there is definitely some decent ideas in it.
Click to expand...
Jake, I don't feel like it is my place to share their names. They are aware of the thread, so I'm sure if they would like to they can. Curious though, why would it matter who made it?
 
Vanilla said:
I don’t even know who is on the committee, let alone how to submit a proposal to them.

Care to enlighten me?
Click to expand...
I don't know.. Not sure why it would matter if you know who is on it or not. The DWR typically has a page or link for the public to submit their input. You're a smart guy, I'm sure you can find it.
 
Simpleton said:
Jake, I don't feel like it is my place to share their names. They are aware of the thread, so I'm sure if they would like to they can. Curious though, why would it matter who made it?
Click to expand...
It doesn't really matter, Not sure why it would need to be a secret.
 
JakeH said:
It doesn't really matter, Not sure why it would need to be a secret.
Click to expand...
I don't think it's a secret. It just isn't my place. I feel safe in assuming that their names/emails/contact info had to be on what they submitted in order to receive a response from Dax.
 
Simpleton said:
I don't think it's a secret. It just isn't my place. I feel safe in assuming that their names/emails/contact info had to be on what they submitted in order to receive a response from Dax.
Click to expand...
They better be very careful.
As of right now we have a 5 year waiting period on LE units.

LE also has a 50/50 tag split. GS deer doesn’t.

IF they take away 5 year waiting period points creep will skyrocket.

But if they keep it, then GS deer will be implemented into this as well.

The 50/50 split is a tough one I don’t want it to go away from LE. But if this happens they will have to get rid of the 50/50 split with GS in the pool.

Maybe i missed something here but this is not looking good at all.
 
middlefork said:
Not sure I agree with the direction this discussion is going but if it gains traction why not just bite the bullet and go totally random draw?

Would you need to limit the application by species or just limit it to one species per year?

If the idea is to simplify the process then apply for one species only and then do a random draw.

I'll even throw in the OIL species.
Click to expand...
There are good arguments to be made for having a totally random draw, but I feel like Utah passed that turn when they started giving out points. I could see pulling the rug out if we were only a few years into it, but pulling the rug out on people that have 10, 20, or even 30 points is brutal. I think one of the better options to stop point creep is to simply put a cap on the maximum number of points. This could hurt max point holders that are vying for hunts that are super hard to draw, but in most cases they would have some other descent options.
 
Simpleton said:
I don't think it's a secret. It just isn't my place. I feel safe in assuming that their names/emails/contact info had to be on what they submitted in order to receive a response from Dax.
Click to expand...
Although the MD committee and “Dax” might be aware of this proposal, as you mention in your OP, I don’t think the UDWR has posted anything on their website concerning this matter. I am not aware of any mention of this matter in any of the RAC or WB agendas or meetings. I am not aware that they are not soliciting comments on this matter. Please prove me wrong? It is pretty hard to make informed comments on something that does not officially exist.
 
gundog2 said:
Although the MD committee and “Dax” might be aware of this proposal, as you mention in your OP, I don’t think the UDWR has posted anything on their website concerning this matter. I am not aware of any mention of this matter in any of the RAC or WB agendas or meetings. I am not aware that they are not soliciting comments on this matter. Please prove me wrong? It is pretty hard to make informed comments on something that does not officially exist.
Click to expand...
No one ever said, nor implied, that the DWR or the committee is taking comments on this proposal specifically. All that was ever said was this proposal was submitted to them.
1713713894464.png
 
First change, Zero Auction Tags, change to a monthly raffle of 4 permits (1 each deer, elk, pronghorn and 1 OIL)
Second change, Zero Expo tags unless they allow online applications without in person Validation at the expo.
Third change, only General season area is the Wasatch Extended. (This is where LL goes to die)
fourth change, all other areas are limited entry. This will separate the people who want a premium tag and those wanting to hunt more frequently.
 
Elkrunning-Scared said:
They better be very careful.
As of right now we have a 5 year waiting period on LE units.

LE also has a 50/50 tag split. GS deer doesn’t.

IF they take away 5 year waiting period points creep will skyrocket.

But if they keep it, then GS deer will be implemented into this as well.

The 50/50 split is a tough one I don’t want it to go away from LE. But if this happens they will have to get rid of the 50/50 split with GS in the pool.

Maybe i missed something here but this is not looking good at all.
Click to expand...
Reading comprehension is difficult.

1. The draw would be a bonus point draw with a 50/50 split:
From the proposal - Having all deer points be deer points is more reflective of other western states, but still maintains Utah’s uniqueness by applying the Utah bonus point system to the draw where points are rewarded, but everyone still has a chance to draw out.

2. The proposal recommended removal of the waiting period. Points will not sky rocket.
Simpleton said:
This will also reduce point creep. Because of the sportsmen that are applying for 2 or 3 deer tags at one time, you will now have 25% less applications for the same number of deer tags. Over the long run as sportsmen weigh the option to hunt multiple tags in their lifetime vs. the once in a lifetime feel that the most coveted deer tags now realistically are. Overall, this proposal puts the choice in each sportsman’s hands based on whether they value hunting more frequently or higher quality areas less frequently.
Click to expand...
Simple math proves this out:
Reduction in applications of around 25% when you can't put in for Gen, LE, and DH. Currently only +/-1400 LE Tags are awarded in the draw. Over 43k Gen tags are awarded. There is already no waiting period for Gen. In 5 years, there are around 7k in the waiting period, yet can still apply for general tags. 7k does not equate to 25% of overall tags let alone apps. Point creep will not accelerate. In fact it will decelerate and, in time, it will take less points on average to draw any given deer tag. The reduction will be accentuated by people having to choose with some, or even many, willfully forgoing point building for the option to hunt deer more often in favor of not at all.
 
Simpleton said:
I don't know.. Not sure why it would matter if you know who is on it or not. The DWR typically has a page or link for the public to submit their input. You're a smart guy, I'm sure you can find it.
Click to expand...

It doesn’t matter who is on a PUBLIC committee that is making recommendations that are very often shaping PUBLIC policy?

You’re pretty defensive for a simple question. You on this committee?

And you’re right, I am a smart guy, and I bet I’m in the top 10% of knowledge base on how all this process works. That said, I’m completely in the dark about what this committee is discussing. And that is a problem with the process.
 
What about you can acquire up to 10 points if you haven’t drawn by your 10th point, then you have to start all over you?
 
Vanilla said:
It doesn’t matter who is on a PUBLIC committee that is making recommendations that are very often shaping PUBLIC policy?

You’re pretty defensive for a simple question. You on this committee?

And you’re right, I am a smart guy, and I bet I’m in the top 10% of knowledge base on how all this process works. That said, I’m completely in the dark about what this committee is discussing. And that is a problem with the process.
Click to expand...
That's funny. No I am not on the mule deer, or any other, committee. Never have been. I'm just an average guy. My response being a little snarky was directed to your statement that you don't know how to submit a proposal to the committee for review. I've seen you respond on this site to questions about finding info that is available in the same manner. Like when @elkassassin recently asked about the total number of tags given on a particular unit.

Smart you may be, but your reading comprehension is lacking. I didn't say it doesn't matter who is on the committee, I said:
Simpleton said:
Not sure why it would matter if you know who is on it or not.
Click to expand...
If the makeup is not to your liking, are you going to change it, boycott it, ignore it?

Seeing as it is the statewide mule deer plan, I would venture to guess that they are discussing anything and everything related to mule deer. Don't fret, nothing they propose will be a secret, it will go through the same PUBLIC process that you are so knowledgeable about.

In all likelihood, this entire discussion is all for naught. They'll likely get hundreds of comments, proposals, and other input in addition to the personal ideas of the members. The chance any of those are adopted as submitted are quite low. But hopefully, the submissions help drive productive conversation. My opinion is that this committee won't touch the points issue as it effects more than just mule deer. If there is ever a change on the points front my guess is that it would come from something other than a species specific committee.

Vanilla, in fairness, I do not think you are dumb. I enjoy the banter. I've seen your posts for a long time and I agree with a lot of what you say. I think you are passionate and knowledgeable, but have a tendency to be short-sighted with a hint of arrogance from time to time. But hey, don't we all?
 
If I’ve only given off a hint of arrogance then I’m falling short. I’m way more arrogant than that!

My problem with waiting for the public process is by the time those recommendations come out, it’s often too late. And with previous committees I was specifically told public comment would NOT be received. (The recent tech committee, as a specific example.) That said, I was able to find the page you referenced existed and learned for the first time this committee, unlike others, is allowing public input on the front end.

I look forward to providing just that! So thank you.
 
I don’t know how we went from 4 point only, flintlock stick bow hunts, to this fuggin bullchit, in the span of 6 months. They really do have no idea what’s going on. That or they have a bunch of tards in there that can’t remember one proposal from the next.

Either way, this chit is embarrassing. What Utah has currently is working fine. If you want to hunt, YOU can hunt! It’s not that difficult to get a tag! We are fixing things that aren’t broke and will in no way put more deer on the market for us. Until we get THAT problem solved, screwing around with the draw and tag structure will not be of any benefit, other than it’ll just pizz everyone off. That’s all this will do.
 
Cam@strawberry said:
Hang on guys, I’m gonna go add up how many deer this will help add to the population. Nobody say anything till I get back.

Probably take at least a week to figure out how managing tags and hunters again will help deer out.

I mean we’ve never done this before, it’s totally uncharted territory for sure.
Click to expand...
So what you are saying is they have to EITHER work on helping deer herds OR make changes to address point creep OR look at hunter experience? They can't do something like this AND simultaneously implement changes to help herd health, fawn survival, and doe productivity? I sure hope it isn't a multi-year plan of one or the other.
 
Cam@strawberry said:
Hang on guys, I’m gonna go add up how many deer this will help add to the population. Nobody say anything till I get back.

Probably take at least a week to figure out how managing tags and hunters again will help deer out.

I mean we’ve never done this before, it’s totally uncharted territory for sure.
Click to expand...
This committee really is not about helping the deer herds, although that would, or could be a helpful side effect, it was put together to help direct how we are going to manage hunters for the next 10+ years. Very similar to the changes that was just made in the elk plan. Lots of people feel the system we have now is broken, this committee will be trying to find a better system. Hell maybe one doesn't exist. I'm curious to see what comes out of it.

But ultimately the Wildlife Board will have the power to actually change things.
 
JakeH said:
This committee really is not about helping the deer herds, although that would, or could be a helpful side effect, it was put together to help direct how we are going to manage hunters for the next 10+ years. Very similar to the changes that was just made in the elk plan. Lots of people feel the system we have now is broken, this committee will be trying to find a better system. Hell maybe one doesn't exist. I'm curious to see what comes out of it.

But ultimately the Wildlife Board will have the power to actually change things.
Click to expand...
Wait. What!
From the current plan.
"UTAH DIVISION OF WILDLIFE RESOURCESSTATEWIDE MANAGEMENT PLAN FOR MULE DEERI. PURPOSE OF THE PLAN

A. General This document provides overall guidance and direction for managing Utah’s mule deer populations. This plan provides general information on natural history, management, population status, habitat, and issues of concern for mule deer in Utah. This plan also outlines the goals, objectives, and strategies for managing mule deer populations and their habitats. The plan will be used to help set priorities for statewide mule deer management programs and provide guidance for individual unit management plans.
B. Dates Covered The mule deer management plan will be presented to the Utah Wildlife Board on December 5, 2019and, if approved, will be in effect for a period of 5 years from this date (Dates covered: December 5,2019 – December 5, 2024)."

56 pages of deer management and about 2 of hunter management.

So the emphases is on hunter management this time around? So far that has really not worked.
 
What Middlefork said.

For a lot of us, we look at the recent history of these plans and committees and wonder why they don’t do something to help our deer herds.

We can shift tags from one weapon type to another. We can swap season dates. We can add in HAMS hunts. And all that will result in the same trend of decreasing opportunities to chase mule deer because they are doing nothing to help build the herds.
 
imo, splitting seasons in half is going to result in the average joe shooting the first legal deer he or she sees. But then maybe thats what they want, forked horn annihilation... pretty much the way it is now on the unit I live on.

Quite frankly, I don't understand all the gimmick proposals that seem to constantly come out. Why not follow a winning model like Colorado? manage for 23 to 24 bucks per 100 does on EVERY unit. keep them all draws like they are now. have 3 seasons, archery, muzzy, rifle. Now that we actually have mandatory harvest success reporting they should be able to allocate tag numbers per unit accordingly, unless of course the population models are wrong ;)
 
But wait SFW has been helping our deer herds since ‘94. They promised if we would reduce deer tags to 90,000 for 5 years we would have more deer than ever! Since then all we have done is reduce deer tags and Reduce Deer numbers! If we actually GREW MORE DEER we could forget all these committees and BS we’re going thru. There would be less fighting among all type of hunters. It seems we just dance around the elephant in the room!
 
Can I have a thumbs down founder? Oh come on… it would be so much easier when I don’t agree to just give a big thumbs down 👎🏻 oh there we go I feel better now👍🏼
 
JakeH said:
This committee really is not about helping the deer herds, although that would, or could be a helpful side effect, it was put together to help direct how we are going to manage hunters for the next 10+ years. Very similar to the changes that was just made in the elk plan. Lots of people feel the system we have now is broken, this committee will be trying to find a better system. Hell maybe one doesn't exist. I'm curious to see what comes out of it.

But ultimately the Wildlife Board will have the power to actually change things.
Click to expand...
I agree. A lot of people get deer and hunter management all mixed up or they think it's all the same when it's two completely different things. I like things the way they are.
 
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middlefork said:
Wait. What!
From the current plan.
"UTAH DIVISION OF WILDLIFE RESOURCESSTATEWIDE MANAGEMENT PLAN FOR MULE DEERI. PURPOSE OF THE PLAN

A. General This document provides overall guidance and direction for managing Utah’s mule deer populations. This plan provides general information on natural history, management, population status, habitat, and issues of concern for mule deer in Utah. This plan also outlines the goals, objectives, and strategies for managing mule deer populations and their habitats. The plan will be used to help set priorities for statewide mule deer management programs and provide guidance for individual unit management plans.
B. Dates Covered The mule deer management plan will be presented to the Utah Wildlife Board on December 5, 2019and, if approved, will be in effect for a period of 5 years from this date (Dates covered: December 5,2019 – December 5, 2024)."

56 pages of deer management and about 2 of hunter management.

So the emphases is on hunter management this time around? So far that has really not worked.
Click to expand...
Yeah, this committee is to help address those two pages of hunter management in the muledeer plan. There will still be 50+ pages of biological deer management that the DWR will include in the muledeer plan. This is the muledeer committee to address hunting, not to address the biological needs. Could they implement some things that would help the herds? Absolutely, and they will probably look at all of that as well.

Vanilla said:
What Middlefork said.

For a lot of us, we look at the recent history of these plans and committees and wonder why they don’t do something to help our deer herds.

We can shift tags from one weapon type to another. We can swap season dates. We can add in HAMS hunts. And all that will result in the same trend of decreasing opportunities to chase mule deer because they are doing nothing to help build the herds.
Click to expand...
Come on Vanilla, you are starting to act like Bess, this committee is not focused on the biological needs of the herd, it's focused on hunter management. Do you really want this group of people managing the biological needs of the herd? It's the DWR's job to grow the herds, I'm sure they will have a ton of influence in this committee, and ultimately they form and can change what ever proposal will come out of this committee before it gets to the RAC, and WB.

So are you back sliding on your belief that hunter management is not a proper way to improve the deer herds (like you have been saying to Bess for weeks now) or do you want them to improve the herds with hunter management, because this committee is designed to manage hunting.

Besides what exactly could this committee do to improve the herds? They can't control the weather (the biggest factor effecting deer herds) they have no say in highway funding, they have no say in where, or what habitat projects are to be performed, so what do you think they can do to improve the deer herd?

In my eyes this committee is formed to possibly improve or at least effect hunter management, not herd management.
 
Jake do you believe hunter management can help the deer herd. We are still giving out the same number of deer permits. The success rates have basically stayed the same within a couple of percentage points. I don’t think it matters how or who kill the deer if there are no deer, does it matter? We have gone from 225,000 permits in 92-93’ to around 60-70,000 permits. We need to be growing the deer herds as our number 1 priority.
 
We are not giving out anywhere close the same number of permits as in the past.
But again it seems the the discussion is that hunters are limiting the herds.
This proposal does nothing to address the herd. Not one thing.
 
JakeH, if you’re asking me those questions then you haven’t read any of my other posts in this thread.

You’re digging for a treasure that isn’t there.

And I’ll maintain, if the only thing this mule deer committee comes up with is this proposal, they will have failed. Just as I explained above!
 
JakeH said:
Besides what exactly could this committee do to improve the herds? They can't control the weather (the biggest factor effecting deer herds) they have no say in highway funding, they have no say in where, or what habitat projects are to be performed, so what do you think they can do to improve the deer herd?

In my eyes this committee is formed to possibly improve or at least effect hunter management, not herd management.
Click to expand...
The pressure should be 100 percent directed at the legislature to improve funding.
The DWR's main mandate is the animals. Hunters should be a very distant second.
But right now it seems that the idea is to pay tribute to more bad ideas.
 
Vanilla said:
JakeH, if you’re asking me those questions then you haven’t read any of my other posts in this thread.

You’re digging for a treasure that isn’t there.

And I’ll maintain, if the only thing this mule deer committee comes up with is this proposal, they will have failed. Just as I explained above!
Click to expand...
You haven't said anything in this thread that would indicate how this committee is supposed to help grow our deer herds.

My whole point is this committee has very little power to effect the health of the herd as a whole, unless you feel that managing hunters will somehow magically fix things.

You guys are expecting way to much from the committee, the heath of the herds is squarely on the shoulders of the DWR and it's biologists, not the committee.

As far as the proposal goes, Let's be clear, the committee could look at this thing and half the people in the room could vote to not even entertain it and in the garbage it goes. They might take it and tweak it. We really don't know.

I'm not for or against the proposal, but I won't deny it is a well thought out proposal and addresses a lot of areas of concern with a lot of people, and it probably has some traction to at least be considered.
 
middlefork said:
The pressure should be 100 percent directed at the legislature to improve funding.
The DWR's main mandate is the animals. Hunters should be a very distant second.
But right now it seems that the idea is to pay tribute to more bad ideas.
Click to expand...
Did you watch the WB work session from a couple weeks ago? If you don't think they are doing things to try and help the herds you have your head in the sand. The work they have put in the last 10 years especially is astounding and we are just beginning to see the fruits of that labor in terms of understanding what is actually happening to our deer herds. The more we understand the better we van respond to different scenarios. Call me an optimist, but I am actually pretty impressed with what they have been doing. The problem is 90% of people don't even know what has been done.
 
Combining points is not a bad idea.

Tampering with season dates IS a bad idea.

Here is why:

Take any five day hunt and add two or three days of bad weather and you are screwed.

Making the extended archery hunts unlimited is a TERRIBLE idea.

Here is why:

The Wasatch for example has been pounded and pounded and is not half as good as it was ten or twenty years ago. If anything, it should be made a separate hunt and cost points.

Third season archery is total nonsense
 
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JakeH said:
Did you watch the WB work session from a couple weeks ago? If you don't think they are doing things to try and help the herds you have your head in the sand. The work they have put in the last 10 years especially is astounding and we are just beginning to see the fruits of that labor in terms of understanding what is actually happening to our deer herds. The more we understand the better we van respond to different scenarios. Call me an optimist, but I am actually pretty impressed with what they have been doing. The problem is 90% of people don't even know what has been done.
Click to expand...
Did you notice who posted the link to the workshop on here?
Yes I watched the whole thing and listened to both podcasts before.
Does this proposal add any more tags? Decrease tags? Or just attempt to redistribute them?
People are complaining that they can't draw a tag, being too crowded when they do draw a tag, and no deer to hunt when they draw a tag.
What exactly does this proposal fix?
 
JakeH said:
Did you watch the WB work session from a couple weeks ago? If you don't think they are doing things to try and help the herds you have your head in the sand. The work they have put in the last 10 years especially is astounding and we are just beginning to see the fruits of that labor in terms of understanding what is actually happening to our deer herds. The more we understand the better we van respond to different scenarios. Call me an optimist, but I am actually pretty impressed with what they have been doing. The problem is 90% of people don't even know what has been done.
Click to expand...

Wildlife Board Workshop | Utah

The first 2 hours or so is pretty much deer related. But it is all interesting.
monstermuleys.info monstermuleys.info

Check the OP Jake. You’re getting pissy and defensive here when it’s not necessary. We know the committee can’t vote to fund highway crossings. But I believe there are things they can do aside from change the point structure to help mule deer. I hope they’re listening to the pros in the room.
 
The only thing I 100% for sure know about Utah deer is that I have 9 preference points and 9 bonus points for deer and if they combined them to 18 "Deer Points", I would still not likely draw anything worth a crap as a NR..

I only plan to hunt deer 1 or 2 times at most in Utah. I just want to hunt a quality unit. If they combine my points, I am ok with that. It will just cut me down to 1 lifetime hunt in Utah and that's ok. When I started building points in multiple states a dozen years ago, I had a vision of hunting all of my points twice in my life. It has turned out that most of my ideas are now once in a lifetime hunts. Thats ok with me as a NR. I get it, there are lots of other people wanting to have the same experiences, so I won't get too greedy and ask for more than 1 tag.

I am not ok with them just throwing my points I bought in the trash though....

Am I a point buyer? Yes. But it is based on a plan of hunting there eventually. Just 1 time in my lifetime.

If I was a resident (who wanted to hunt my home state every year), I would feel much differently about the proposals.
 
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Mallardsx2 said:
The only thing I 100% for sure know about Utah deer is that I have 9 preference points and 9 bonus points for deer and if they combined them to 18 "Deer Points", I would still not likely draw anything worth a crap as a NR..

I only plan to hunt deer 1 or 2 times at most in Utah. I just want to hunt a quality unit. If they combine my points, I am ok with that. It will just cut me down to 1 lifetime hunt in Utah and that's ok. When I started building points in multiple states a dozen years ago, I had a vision of hunting all of my points twice in my life. It has turned out that most of my ideas are now once in a lifetime hunts. Thats ok with me as a NR. I get it, there are lots of other people wanting to have the same experiences, so I won't get too greedy and ask for more than 1 tag.

I am not ok with them just throwing my points I bought in the trash though....

Am I a point buyer? Yes. But it is based on a plan of hunting there eventually. Just 1 time in my lifetime.

If I was a resident (who wanted to hunt my home state every year), I would feel much differently about the proposals.
Click to expand...
The GS deer hunts that you have preference points for were never intended to be managed as limited entry units. Many of these units still provide good success rates and they have potential to produce big bucks, but most of the deer taken in those units are not trophy size. If that sounds like “crap” to you then you’ve probably been wasting your money. There is not really any good reason for anybody to have more than two or three preference points for GS deer, but you can use them to help a friend or family member draw a tag with you as a group. I would not hold my breath thinking these preference points are going to help you get a limited entry deer hunt.
 
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middlefork said:
Did you notice who posted the link to the workshop on here?
Yes I watched the whole thing and listened to both podcasts before.
Does this proposal add any more tags? Decrease tags? Or just attempt to redistribute them?
People are complaining that they can't draw a tag, being too crowded when they do draw a tag, and no deer to hunt when they draw a tag.
What exactly does this proposal fix?
Click to expand...
It has potential to help address point creep.
 
Simpleton said:
2. The proposal recommended removal of the waiting period. Points will not sky rocket.
Click to expand...
Well I'm going to throw my 2 cents in. nobody knows if it will skyrocket or not.
I do know if you get rid of the 5 year waiting period. there is 1,353 permits they give out each year for LE so x that by 5 = 6,765 more permits added back to the points pool. so point creep just increased right there for LE.
 
This is my idea. WE either get rid of the DH program or it goes to a random. Life time License holders are just that they wont be a part of any of this

We roughly have over 104,000 applicants that apply for deer.

We roughly have 40,000 permits last year.

This is my idea to get rid of point pool on GS

2025 high point holders get the 40,000 permits

Now we have 64,000 without a tag.

2026 mid point holders get 40,000 permits

Now we have 24,000 without a tag

2027 low point holders get the remaining 24,000 tags

Now all the points are gone.

On average the last 5 years, Hunters have harvested 23,000 buck deer each year

2025 if hunters harvest 23,000 bucks now they will be on a 3 year waiting period before they can put back in.

Now we have 17,000 hunters getting a tag in 2026.

2026 if hunter harvest 23,000 buck they will also be on a 3 year waiting period before they can put back in.

Now we have 17,000 hunters getting a tag in 2027.

2027 if hunters harvest 23,000 bucks that will put them on a 3 year waiting period. Now we have 18,000 hunters moving to 2028.

You could possibly have a tag in your pocket every year. now if the buck to doe ratio gets to high then we have a second hunt that is a random and anyone can apply including the hunters on the waiting period.

I hope this makes sense.
 
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.
middlefork said:
Did you notice who posted the link to the workshop on here?
Yes I watched the whole thing and listened to both podcasts before.
Does this proposal add any more tags? Decrease tags? Or just attempt to redistribute them?
People are complaining that they can't draw a tag, being too crowded when they do draw a tag, and no deer to hunt when they draw a tag.
What exactly does this proposal fix?
Click to expand...
Touche, lol. It's hard to keep track of who posts what all the time.

Maybe I'm not giving the committee enough due diligence, but will they have the ability to increase tags? Or is that going to be left up to the Dwr/biologists and ultimately the WB?

I'm not advocating for this proposal, my only point has been, does this committee have the power that you guys seem to think it does? Maybe it does, and I am in the wrong.

Vanilla said:

Wildlife Board Workshop | Utah

The first 2 hours or so is pretty much deer related. But it is all interesting.
monstermuleys.info monstermuleys.info

Check the OP Jake. You’re getting pissy and defensive here when it’s not necessary. We know the committee can’t vote to fund highway crossings. But I believe there are things they can do aside from change the point structure to help mule deer. I hope they’re listening to the pros in the room.
Click to expand...
I honestly hope they do as well.

What are some things they can do to help deer? I'm honestly curious what your ideas are.
 
First thing: listen to the people that have actual data. Don’t listen to the farmers and ranchers. Don’t listen to the bow hunter that wants longer seasons on the front end and a rut hunt on the back end. Don’t listen to the hunters that wants 4 point or better so they can artificially inflate antler size for a few years before we kill out all those bucks again. Don’t listen to the tree higher that has no stake or vested interest other than complaining about something.

Listen to those with data. I know that’s asking a lot, but that is numero uno!

As for what they can do to help mule deer? To start out I’d settle for things that won’t hurt them. They’ll need to follow numero uno. No antler point restrictions. No tag cuts to inflate buck to doe ratios above what appear to be healthy levels. There are other proposals floated around every year that also could end up harming mule deer and I don’t want to take the time to type them all out at this particular moment. You’ve seen them. You’ve debated them. You know what they are.

Ultimately, I want them to listen to people that know what they are talking about. So very few of us actually do.
 
Shut down a couple units for 3 years and see if deer her grows with zero hunting.

Limit the days of all the hunts on a couple units. See if that grows the herd after 3 years.

Increase the number of Buck tags on a couple units for 3 years, see if reducing bucks grows the deer herd.

Step up the predator killings on a couple units, see if that grows the deer herd.

We have all these units but try the same thing on every unit.
 
I'm pretty much in the minority when it comes to people on here and what their ideas are about hunting deer.

I actually think the DWR is doing a pretty good job with their mandate. After all it is the WB actually making the decisions.

Deer populations - Seems like nobody believes the models they use. Doesn't matter that they are pretty consistent between states.
Is there a better way? More flights, more classification? I think most don't understand the whole deer count thing. But lets get a number most can agree on.

Habitat - Lots of good things going on and I like the direction they are heading with summer range.

Predators - There has been some talk that hunting needs to be more targeted. But near as I can tell everybody can go out and give it hell.

Highway collisions/ wildlife fencing/crossings- The data is hard to find but these are a consideration built in to almost all road projects.

Weather- Take advantage when the conditions are good because the bad will erase it all.
There were comments made that carrying capacity varies by year. This is not some hard reoccurring number.

Hunters- Hunters are taking excess bucks. How many is the discussion and what is creating all the angst.

The WB absolutely sets the available tag numbers. But more often than not they tend to ignore the divisions recommendations to appease vocal people who make comments.
 
Vanilla said:
First thing: listen to the people that have actual data. Don’t listen to the farmers and ranchers. Don’t listen to the bow hunter that wants longer seasons on the front end and a rut hunt on the back end. Don’t listen to the hunters that wants 4 point or better so they can artificially inflate antler size for a few years before we kill out all those bucks again. Don’t listen to the tree higher that has no stake or vested interest other than complaining about something.

Listen to those with data. I know that’s asking a lot, but that is numero uno!

As for what they can do to help mule deer? To start out I’d settle for things that won’t hurt them. They’ll need to follow numero uno. No antler point restrictions. No tag cuts to inflate buck to doe ratios above what appear to be healthy levels. There are other proposals floated around every year that also could end up harming mule deer and I don’t want to take the time to type them all out at this particular moment. You’ve seen them. You’ve debated them. You know what they are.

Ultimately, I want them to listen to people that know what they are talking about. So very few of us actually do.
Click to expand...
I think we are mostly in agreement, minus your obvious distain for archery hunters. (Could you please show us on the doll where the archery hunter touched you. Lol)

I'm still not sold on the whole lowering B to D ratio theory, at least not in the way Brock laid it out in the work session, about how bucks are competing for food. From my experience the bucks and doe's usually keep themselves separated. With the exception of the yearling bucks which maybe that is where to effect comes in. I'm not saying there isn't a correlation, but they obviously don't understand it yet, and I feel they would agree with that, so I would have a hard time implementing it in more then a couple units to try it out.
 
How is stating a fact about some archery hunters demanding something a disdain for them? Are you going to argue the proposal does not greatly favor a small segment of hunters? I’ll wait while you talk yourself out of that one.

I hunt and help with archery hunters on their tags almost every year. I have no issue with archery hunters. I do object greatly to a small portion of them that are working tirelessly to take opportunities away from others to benefit themselves. But I feel the same way about anyone that does that, with no respect for weapon choice.
 
Everybody sees, hears remember things in their own way.
Brocks comments were we see something going on we can't explain. It deserves more study.

But we are told that the Henries and Antelope Island or any other premium unit is the perfect model.

All are declining with maybe the exception of Paunsaguant.

What are the challenges on every individual unit? What isn't or hasn't been addressed?

Reducing point creep should be at the very bottom of consideration.
 
I Get Throwed In The Can For A week This time & Look What Happens!

I'm Not here To Raise Nilly's Blood Pressure Up TRIPLE!

So He Starts His BS With JakeH!

You're getting Smarter Nilly,Just Ask Yourself!:D

(((Now Before you Get All PISSY With Me,I'm Just RAZZIN You SMART Guy!:D)))

You Can't Even Take A PISS Around Here Anymore Without A F'N Committee!

Does Anybody Believe This Proposal Will Produce More Deer Numbers?

I'm With Bux,WAFJ!

You're Always Worried About Managing Hunters Nilly!

You Should Love This F'N Battle Plan!

For All We Know There Might Only Be One Hunter/Sportsman On The Committee!
 
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middlefork said:
Everybody sees, hears remember things in their own way.
Brocks comments were we see something going on we can't explain. It deserves more study.

But we are told that the Henries and Antelope Island or any other premium unit is the perfect model.

All are declining with maybe the exception of Paunsaguant.
Click to expand...
It Ain't A Maybe!

Pauns Is way Down From What It Was Just A Few Years Ago As Well!

middlefork said:
What are the challenges on every individual unit? What isn't or hasn't been addressed?
Click to expand...
What Hasn't Been Tried?

How Bout PROPER MANAGEMENT?

middlefork said:
Reducing point creep should be at the very bottom of consideration.
Click to expand...
 
One More Thing Nilly!

It Ain't That Founder Can't Tolerate My/Our BS!

It's Some Of The Other So Called Great White Hunter Know-It-All Wanna-Be's BAWLING & Alerting What I've Posted Because They Can't Handle The Truth!
 
Vanilla said:
How is stating a fact about some archery hunters demanding something a disdain for them? Are you going to argue the proposal does not greatly favor a small segment of hunters? I’ll wait while you talk yourself out of that one.

I hunt and help with archery hunters on their tags almost every year. I have no issue with archery hunters. I do object greatly to a small portion of them that are working tirelessly to take opportunities away from others to benefit themselves. But I feel the same way about anyone that does that, with no respect for weapon choice.
Click to expand...
How is cutting the archery hunt into two halves such a great advantage for archery guys? They could still only hunt one or the other. The change is equal, actually a touch harsher as it’s a full 50% (14 day) cut where the other weapons are only reduced by 44% (4 days) in length. The additional hunt in November is a very small percentage of tags and comes from the current archery tags, not from another weapon’s allocation. Very similar to what was created for muzzy a few years back in general units (except they were added in addition). If it is such an advantage, I’m sure no one would stop you or anyone else from grabbing a bow.
 
Simpleton said:
How is cutting the archery hunt into two halves such a great advantage for archery guys? They could still only hunt one or the other. The change is equal, actually a touch harsher as it’s a full 50% (14 day) cut where the other weapons are only reduced by 44% (4 days) in length. The additional hunt in November is a very small percentage of tags and comes from the current archery tags, not from another weapon’s allocation. Very similar to what was created for muzzy a few years back in general units (except they were added in addition). If it is such an advantage, I’m sure no one would stop you or anyone else from grabbing a bow. And I'd Recommend A Fred Bear For Him!
Click to expand...
 
Bottom line we need to find a way to grow more deer, my question is can we find a way to get the conservation groups to buy it and make it to where it can’t be developed. The thing that’s odd is how southern Utah was in such bad shape, they had all these new ideas to try out new hunts and they didn’t do it, now they act like southern Utah grew deer numbers by 400 percent. Let’s not cut tags or increase them let’s hang tight for a couple of seasons.
 
Vanilla said:
How is stating a fact about some archery hunters demanding something a disdain for them? Are you going to argue the proposal does not greatly favor a small segment of hunters? I’ll wait while you talk yourself out of that one.

I hunt and help with archery hunters on their tags almost every year. I have no issue with archery hunters. I do object greatly to a small portion of them that are working tirelessly to take opportunities away from others to benefit themselves. But I feel the same way about anyone that does that, with no respect for weapon choice.
Click to expand...
I've been around this block with you before, you are always against anything that could improve the archery hunt. Nothing in this proposal took anything from the other hunts and gave it to the archery hunts. In fact the plan gave every single person that wants it an opportunity to hunt every year and still put in for what they want to. That's not just for archery hunters, that is for everyone.

It's a fact that the best way to increase opportunities to get people in the field more often is with utilization of the archery hunts.

You always pipe up when anything like that is brought up, it never fails. Your an archery hater, and that's your perogative.

It's weird though, you never have an issue with "the small portion of hunters" that absolutely takes opportunities away from everyone else, that being the Lifetime License holders. And I will fully admit I am a hater in that regard. These guys was too nice in this proposal, there are no more general deer hunts, the Dwr should transfer those over to general elk tags, or if this proposal is passed the extended archery would be an option as well.
 
Good to see Bessy comes back and immediately posts. three times to himself talking about me. I’m glad some things never change.

I can only imagine how bad he’s been chomping at the bit! I guess those pics didn’t hold him over well enough…

JakeH said:
These guys was too nice in this proposal, there are no more general deer hunts, the Dwr should transfer those over to general elk tags, or if this proposal is passed the extended archery would be an option as well.
Click to expand...

Try it! Shoot your shot at the next RAC meeting. Let us know what you’re told by the Division and its legal counsel.
 
Vanilla said:
Try it! Shoot your shot at the next RAC meeting. Let us know what you’re told by the Division and its legal counsel.
Click to expand...
Haha Yep, see no problem with that small contingency of people taking opportunities away from everyone else.

I'm sure a way could be found, hell elk are still a member of the deer family.

Unfortunately it's probably out of my scope of authority.
 
UtyoteKiller said:
You lost me right here. This must be coming from an archery group who wants the cake and be able to eat it too. One month broke into two seasons or extended is plenty when you want to cut everyone else to five days. You want to hunt rutting bucks with a bow, do it on the extended.
Click to expand...
Looking at it from an archery perspective I would say it makes things much more difficult. Instead of having a month, you now have two weeks on a general archery tag. I actually disagree with that, it is already super hard to harvest a deer with a bow, and there is not a ton of crowding on the archery hunts. I would say leave the archery alone. Anyone who thinks two weeks is a long time for an archer, has not hunted enough with a bow on a general unit. Unless you are able to dedicate the entire hunt. Most people are weekend warriors and only hunt maybe five days of the entire month
 
willfrye027 said:
You split up into multiple season I doubt it will feel any less crowded. It will also be more pressure on the deer.

Guys and their posse will be hitting it hard every single day of their 5 day season.

Few if any are doing that for the entire general season as it stands.

You want less crowds? Hunt weekdays and skip opening weekend..
Click to expand...
100 percent agree
 
Well Nilly!

I SELF REGULATED For A Week!

And I Knew You'd Find Somebody-Else To Argue With!

And Careful JakeH!

I don't remember How Many Posts It Takes With Nilly?

But After He Can't Come Up With Anything Else You'll Be Offered The SELFIE NUDIE Pics!

UNBELIEVABLE!!!

Vanilla said:
Good to see Bessy comes back and immediately posts. three times to himself talking about me. I’m glad some things never change.

I can only imagine how bad he’s been chomping at the bit! I guess those pics didn’t hold him over well enough…



Try it! Shoot your shot at the next RAC meeting. Let us know what you’re told by the Division and its legal counsel.
Click to expand...
 

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