Drought antlers in AZ

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CraigS

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LAST EDITED ON Oct-10-06 AT 08:47AM (MST)[p]Just finished up my '06 archery elk season & I have to say the lack of winter & spring moisture did a number on a lot of the bulls. Many hardcore AZ hunters that understand what moisture is needed to produce top end bulls had already seen & predicted a bad antler growth year, but for some reason a ton of hunters still think that big summer rains equal big antlers in the desert. I got some first hand pictures that will probably blow some of you out of the water.


452bafeb4a800e4f.jpg


This is a bull I filmed last year (2005). I gave this bull a score of 380+.


452bb0384b500581.jpg



Here is the bull this year dead. He dropped about 60-65" this year because of the lack of winter moisture.


I want to say that not all of the bulls dropped that many inches but most dropped 10-30". AZ has good genetics but it stinks to get drawn on a drought year. What a difference a year can make in your trouphy dreams!

Thanks,
Craig Steele
 
Az has been in a drought since Az has been a state. With the few exceptional years, most of the time there is very limited amounts of rain here in the spring. One reason why our bulls here are so big is the mild winters with little snow. Every year there are 400"+ bulls killed in AZ. Does that mean that on the "wet years" those bulls would have been 450"+. What I find to be the product of drier conditions is that there seems to be more busted up bulls. Take the desert muledeer here they grow huge and we get very little rain in the spring. Also if the drought were so bad to cause limited horn growth would that not cause a die off on other game species? Age, genes, and minerals determine the structure and size of a bulls rack!
 
Those look like two totally different bulls IMO. I don't see any similarities with any of the points. How do you know for sure?
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-10-06 AT 10:07AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Oct-10-06 AT 09:24?AM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Oct-10-06 AT 09:13?AM (MST)

I agree with you on the mild winters & that we have been in a drought for some time but timely wet winters & spring rains help produce abundant feed & water for the growth of antlers. The place where this bull was harvested & filmed is filled with great ground minerals & I did not think he would lose that much this year but he did. Part of the equation may have been his age. With the lack of rain where this bull was killed the ranchers were having to haul water & not to many water sources were available. This bull also had a number of cows last year which probably cost him alot of his body weight. All of this factored in made him have to put on alot of weight with out the numerous amount of feed & water we had last growing season.

To answer one of your questions. Some bulls live in areas where they don't have to travel for feed or water during times of drought & these are the bulls that usually don't show that many signs of droughty winters & spring. It all depends on the bull, the timing of the weather & the area he lives in. (My opinion)

I believe that many bulls have character points & these are points that stick with the bull through out most of their lives. This bull has an extra point on his RT antler between his 4th & 5th. I also spent many days in the field this year looking for this bull & found him & filmed him on June 15th. I worked my butt off trying to make sure it was him & until I got the picture of him I thought he had grown alot more. This bull was killed a few miles from where I filmed him last year. I am not saying I saw all of the bulls in this country but I damn sure tried. Basically, I am not 100% sure but it is my educated guess...
 
The lack of winter and spring moisture DOES play a role in antler growth. Sure it may not affect every animal, but it does most. The minerals you say are in the ground don't do any good if they can't absorb into the grasses, and the grasses can't grow without water. It DOES matter, and yes, overall we are in a drought and have been for an extremely long time, and will be for an even longer time. But that does not mean animals wont be affected during wet years compared to dry years. But, this winter is supposed to be pretty wet so next year should be good.
 
Scott, You hit the nail on the coffin! Hopefully, we get the wet winter that the Weather service is predicting.

Thanks,
Craig Steele
 
Craig is exactly right. The bulls in northern AZ this year have been hit hard by the drought. Some bulls have lost up to 40" of growth, but most are in the 20-30" range. Those who dont understand this have not spent enough time looking at bulls year after year. Again, I am not saying there are not big bulls, but they are not what they should be. The bulls ate dirt this spring, the range conditions were horrible, some places worse than others, but for the most part, it was bad. Does anybody notice how there are not many 7 pt bulls this year and how big kickers pretty much are non existent, this is due to the drought. Having spent over 100 days in the field, videoing and observing them, thousands of trail cam pics, I can say they have been hard by the drought. Hopefully we get a really wet winter so they can hit their potential next year. There were still some great bulls taken, but not like last year. There were so many 400"+ bulls killed last year it was stupid, not the case this year.
 
Guys if that is case then why did the spikes grow horns this year? Also when Clay Hewitt killed his bull it was a drought year. Elk do not eat as much grass as you think. Elk rely on browse for feed as much as grass. True there has to be rain to make feed, if we did not get any rain everything would die off like the dinosaures did. But there is a difference between horn growth and survival. The horn is determined by minerals,age and genes. The minerals are present in all plants not just the new grasses. I have been hunting and guiding elk for almost 15 years. In those 15 years i have seen huge bulls on wet years and drought years. The main difference is the amount of broken horns. Lets see what is killed this. My archery hunter killed a 360 bull. I don't think that bull would have scored 370 on a wet year. Four years ago there were 2 400+ bulls killed in 3C. If you remember that was an extreme drought year. In 2000 I guided a 417 bull. That also was a dry year. I don't think any of these bulls would have been any different on a wet year. Unit 12 in NM never has rain but 2 yrs ago there were 4 400" bulls killed in archery. Those bulls would not have been any bigger on a wet year. The simple fact is that every wet year the records would be rewrote. Every year the books are rewrote here and in NM regardless of "drought conditions"!
 
I had a unit 8 archery tag about 6 years ago and it was as dry then as it has ever been. VERY bad year to burn points.

Archer
 
Madglasser, I don't know where you are coming up with this??? Yes genitics play a big part in what the bulls potential is, but it doesn't matter if he doesn't have the feed at the right time. Studies show that antler growth for the next year start to be affected by the feed up to 3 weeks prior to them dropping their antlers. So the timing of the feed is essential for good growth. And when you look at the 3a/3c bulls these bulls still do good because they winter up on the rim and with the precip levels there they are still able to have good growth. But that is not the case for the bulls in the western units. Canon and Craig have it right. Canon isn't lying about the time he spends out there and the bulls he sees. They lost a lot of growth this year and they are the same bulls.

Unless someone can show me different, the only 400+ bulls taken this year so far were out of 3a/3c, none in the western units. Look at McClendon's raffle bull at around 375, don't you think they would have been killing bigger if there were as many 400+ bulls as there were last year and that they would have already taken the governors bull???

And the desert muleys can adapt and thrive in desert areas. They are browsers that feed on almost anything and a big part of their diet that thrives in the desert is the mesquite bean. The elk don't have that option and pretty much eat dirt. Look at the chart below (I used precip data from Flag as the example)and the timing of the weather and that will tell you why we had good growth. Before this year our last true drought year was 2002.


452be50751dc2662.jpg



Rackem

http://www.needgod.com/
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-10-06 AT 01:14PM (MST)[p]Rack'em do you not beleive that elk are browsers as well. I am "coming up with this" from years of experience hunting and killing elk. If these elk cannot adapt to the conditions of drought how do they keep surviving and gettting bigger every year? We will just have to see what is killed this year.When it is a druoght in Az it also means much of the west had limited rain fall. What about drought in NM don't hear much about that do you? Also aren't deer and elk related? I always thought they were, so wouldn't that meen the muledeer this year will be smaller? And as far as around here the deer ain't eaten mesqiute beans. They are eating fillorea and melva plants. Along with browsing on Palo Verde. The mesquites down here don't really give much of a bean. The elk eat a lot high protien foods like pinon nuts, juniper berries, Acorns from oakbrush, primrose, and many wild grasses are included with that diet.
 
MAddman,

Elk are browsers, what is being said here it that range conditions vary depending on the area they are in. Ex. unit 1 and 23 have different types of feed. Nobody ever said the animals dont adapt or get bigger, what is being said is the animals are not reaching their potential. survival and horn growth are two completely different things, dont mix the two. We will have to see what gets killed, and if the archery hunts are any sign of it, there wont be many 400 inch bulls like a normal year. I hear about drought in NM all the time, in
fact i know lots of guides and serious hunters over there who have mentioned that the bulls have been hit hard by drought over there as well (their top ends and beams are not good) For your information, elk and deer in AZ and NM grow at different time periods, meaning that a good monsoon could help deer, but is too late for elk.
 
With all that is said I do agree that drought has been hard. But it has been hard for years and years. Calf survival has been hit hard also. But ,as I have witnessed, the horn growth is not affected, as much as some would believe, strickly to the drought. If that was the case we would have to look at body weight reductions on mature bulls as well. I know--------not everybody weighs there elk.
 
400+ bulls in 3C...naw... never happens... bad unit.. go to 1 or 8 or 9 and 10... 3C is bad no big bulls there....oh and it is Heuett
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-10-06 AT 01:36PM (MST)[p]Thanks for the spelling corection. I was hoping i got it right Yeah that was afreak accident everytime that has happened. 3C is to flat to have any other big bulls in it!
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-10-06 AT 01:57PM (MST)[p]we will have to see. Here is an idea,,,,,,don't apply in units that may be affected by drought!
Maybe like Co. or Wy.
 
I am going to take maddglassers side on this i have been hunting elk every year hear in arizona and see little change on wet or dry years with the exception of busted horns during the dry years with to me would explain some bulls not scoring well, here are the numbers i have confirmed this year unit 8 a 390 was killed unit 10 411, unit 9 396 unit 3a,3c 2 bulls over 410 6a 388 these are not little bulls by no means plus you have to remember depending on who draws the tags on what you can expect to be killed if unit 10 100 tags and 98 of those tags go to your neighbor who dosent hunt much then guess what he isnt going to pass a 300 to 330 class bull like most of us plus he wont put the time that we do into scouting,hunting shed hunting and such i have seen some good bulls this year and the sad part is by the time we got to them they were missing a main beam or they had 3 or 4 points busted off. this is my 2 cents guys
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-10-06 AT 03:39PM (MST)[p]We all know by now that elk browse when they have too or want too. Answer me this one question:

Isn't the browse feed effected by drought???

I would beg to differ with anyone who says the elk did not feel the effects (antler growth) from the lack of winter & spring rains. I have another picture of a bull that was around 380 or better last year & was only about 350 this year.

I like Rackem spend numerous weeks in the field EVERY year & know the truth behind this matter. The bottom line is antler growth in MOST of AZ this year was way down from last year, which was one of the best years that we have had (for antler growth in elk) in a long time.

Give me a few hours & I will post some more pics...
 
You guys that think that range condition/drought have no effect on antler development are killing me. I have pics of a shed of a bull that got killed this year that still scored in the 370's that was a 420+ last year. I cant post these pics as they are not mine, but that is just one example out of many that i know of. Those that do not spend major time in the field dont notice this. I would venture to bet that the majority of those commenting about horns not affected live in the city and do not spend near the time others do in the field that might live in these areas. I have talked to a ton of hunters who come up to hunt and see the green grass that there now is and say "horn growth should be great" when in reality this grass turned green long after the antlers were done growing. Again, thousands of tc pics and video of some bulls up to 4 yrs. consecutive, proves this without a doubt. Craig, you are dead on. Obviously you do your homework as well.
 
sounds like "all the other hunters" are just as into believing wives tales as you are.
 
maddglasser,
what more do you want for proof/evidence. Is people seeing it first hand and having pictures not enough. Call the G&F biologist and ask them what they think, then come back on here and tell us all what he says, give us his name so we can verify what you tell us, then we can go from there. I have seen it first hand myself, so yes, I do know its true, the drought effects antler growth.
 
I would have to say I support the dry year smaller horn growth camp at this point. The archery and rifle rut hunts seem to support this theory. Many of the guides that I have talked to said they really weren't seeing the same quality in the racks this year as last. Well if the drought didn't play a part in it then we must have over harvested the big boys over the last few years which is also a distinct possibility. I think we'll have to see what the muzzy boys and the other rifle and archery hunts turn up to see the whole picture. Some units were impacted more by lack of rain in the growth cycle than others and that may account for the differences but the overall quality seems to be below last years on most hunts across the state to this point.
 
Hunter1,
Those numbers you're chiming off would all be coming from one unit in a normal year. I know of 6 bulls that scored over 400 in one unit in N AZ last year. I haven't heard about the 411 bull you're talking about out of 10, but I would love to see pictures.

Madglasser,
You truly are mad. You need to lay off the little red mushrooms that you found in unit 1 and stick to your desert mulies and sheep. :D Kidding, but I totally disagree with you and the proof is in what has been killed.

Rackem

http://www.needgod.com/
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-10-06 AT 05:47PM (MST)[p]This subject is getting old real fast & some seem to have different opinions & that is their right to but here is some more proof. The pics are not that great.

452c2f93458ac67f.jpg


This bull in '06 was around 350-360 6x6 with a weak back end. He was a 6x7 in '05 but the seventh point barely developed this year.

452c2fb445e1335c.jpg


Here the bull is in '05 with a nice back end & 6x7 frame that would have made him score around 380. (This picture does not do him justice).


Thanks & hope you enjoyed!
 
Anyone that thinks nutrition doesn't have an effect on antlers is living in the dark age. Ask any biologist and they will tell you that without the proper nutrition they will never reach there full potential. When there is a drought the amount and quality of forage is reduced. Take it a step further and what would you say is the most critical month of the year for timely rains out west. Here in Texas if we don't get rain in April then the horn growth will be reduced.
TK
 
"Many of the guides that I have talked to said they really weren't seeing the same quality in the racks this year as last. Well if the drought didn't play a part in it then we must have over harvested the big boys over the last few years which is also a distinct possibility."

This statement cannot be true, because according to Madglasser, one of the few things that make a bull big are his genetics. So according to that, there will never be a shortage of those monster 400" bulls as long as they get some before they get shot!!! Right?
 
I guess the truth is not in every other year. we have 2-3 wet years in Az in the last 15 yrs, but for some reason the bulls kept being big. Well seeing how this dry year affected the horn growth so much if I was all of you I would apply for Pa or somewhere where the drought is not an issue, because we are going to keep having dry spells here in Az. If you believe the drought affects the horns that much than you might as well stop appling for Az, but read your farmers almanac to see when the next wet year will be. Might be a wait though because of global warming!
 
from people i have talk to in game and fish and other hunters that put the same time i do (well over 100 days a year) we figure in a drought year which we have not had since 2002. bulls could lose 10 to 18 inches of growth 20 plus i dont belive and have not seen i understand you are trying to prove a point with pictures but you also have to understand these bulls have offspring that will appear similar in horn configuration and the fact that maybe that bull is on his down side plus you have to admit you dont see as many bulls killed this year due to who drew the tags i have been on 4 diffrent elk hunts this year already and i have seen just as good of bulls as i did last year.i spent most of the spring up north feb- july and there was good forage still from last year so i cant see how every one thinks this is a dry year the food was there during the right time.for all of us dye hard elk hunters if we were to get tags in 9,10,8,3a,3c every year we would rewrite the record books every year. i just hope you all can consider some of the points i have made here.
 
Hunter 1 while there is some logic in what you say lets look at the reverse. There were not nearly the number of larger trophies taken this year by guides and their skill levels don't diminish from year to year. I know of at least 50-60 hard core archery hunters that have taken several bulls in the 360+ range over the years in lesser units than they were drawn for this year and they did do their scouting. The genetics of the herds really didn't change that radically in the last 12 months, but yet these guys still were not seeing the mass and trophy quality as in the past few years. What changed to bring about the difference? Harvest data or rainfall at critical times in some units to effect the food source? Winterkill or predation not too likely at this point? Something had to account for the change? It more than likely is a combination of both factors and your skill level definately carries some weight but we will have to see what the entire harvest figures show. If the archery and the rut rifle tag holders aren't showing that the trophy quality aren't equal to last years, historically that will more than likely be the case in the final talley. Is it a horrible year no not by any means but early indications support that it will fall short of the last two years wall hanging bumper crop.
 
This is an interesting discussion and one that seemingly comes up often. The truth is that the timing of moisture has big implications on animal body condition, survival, and antler development and this can be different from area to area. the difficult part is that an animal's life is cyclic, meaning what happens at one time of year can have dramatic impacts later. If animals come into a winter with good fat reserves and then have a mild winter where they don't have to burn lots of energy, then they require less nutrition to do basic body maintenance and more could go towards antler development. The point is that the vegetative conditons prior to winter are important, then winter severity and the following spring precip, it is all connected. In Idaho researchers have been analyzing precip information and linked it to survival, it shows that different areas across the state perform better with different weather patterns, but make no mistake precipitation and subsequent vegetative nutrition is what drive herd productivity and antler growth. The things for large antlers are age and nutrition with some genetics mixed in. Not even incorporated into this discussion secondary chemicals and forage diversity which are directly linked to how much and which species of plants animals can digest and utilize, complicated issue. As far as species go elk are truly generalists and mule deer are more specialists, this is part of the reason that elk have adapted so well to so many habitat types and there populations tend not to fluctuate so dramatically as compared to mule deer numbers.... Look at the research... For what it is worth
 
i was thinking the same thing. and i dont see a bull loosing 60 inches just because of rain. maybe old age, going down hil+moisture+no food but not just one/two of them. thats a 20% downsize
Casey
 
Not really sure what side of the fence your sitting on with that comment muleybull but I'm sure it's a stinker either way! Too bad you feel that way about AZG&F because without their work you wouldn't have a single elk to hunt here period. They were planted because we didn't have any Elk left in the state. I don't agree with everything they do 100% either but I can tell you that without them there would be a whole lot less hunting for all species. You are entitled to your opinion but I have lived here for over 47 years and I know what a positive impact they have made.
 
I didnt realize the blackfooted feret or the horned toad benefited the elk that much.

AZG&F is the downfall of hunting in Arizona!!!!!
 
You dont have to take it out on me just cause you hate your job with the game and fish.

AZG&F is the downfall of hunting in Arizona!!!!!
 
Muleybull, I see your point and it is well taken. But part of the issue getting matching funds from the feds entails work along those lines. They have to demonstrate that they are managing all wildlife not just those species that we hunt and they must manage it for all outdoor activities including bird watching etc. I wish it were as simple as we both would like, but in truth it's a lot more complex than most realize. It shouldn't be, but politics has made it that way, and they have to comply or forgo the funding they need. Yes they have made some mistakes and will in the future but we have benefitted much more than we have lost as a result of their management.

It's the special interest groups we have to watch out for now pushing their own agenda's to eliminate hunting and increase predators that we really need to be concerned with currently. Ultimately that will have a much more devastating impact on wildlife management and hunting in the future.
 
Boskee's got it right about the special interest groups and it's going to get worse with the big numbers of city folks moving to Az. Overall the AZG&F has done a great job with the small amount of habitat compared to states like Wy., Colo.,Id. Az. is first choice in my book for deer, elk and antelope.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-12-06 AT 07:43AM (MST)[p]Man............smart off once and I get everyone headed off on a new topic. I agree with boskee, and I agree with craig on the drought vs. antler growth, but I dont think the first set of pics is the same bull.

If you dont think moisture impacts horn growth, look at the mule deer killed in average or below average units last year in AZ. Lots of monsters coming out of these units that didnt produce many of these kinds of deer in the past.......coincidence?

Ya bunch of fruitcakes!

AZG&F is the downfall of hunting in Arizona!!!!!
 
HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT IS THE SAME BULL? IT JUST DOESN'T LOOK RIGHT TO ME THAT A BULL CAN DROP INCHES TO THAT EXTREME. SOMETHING DOESN'T ADD UP, MIGHT WANT TO CHECK YOUR FACTS. VERY INTERESTING NONE THE LESS!!!
 
I don't think thats the same bull in those pics. Look at the way all his points are shaped. Royals curl back one year and curl forward the next??? As for your caracter points, my bro has sheds off of a bull from 2 years 380 6X6 one year, 410+ 9X7 the next, it was killed the following year as a 6X6 that netted in the 380s. The bull carried the same antler shape every year just gained/dropped off points. thats just one example I have seen.

I agree that a drought year will affect antler growth, but thats not the same bull.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-19-06 AT 10:03AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Oct-19-06 AT 10:01?AM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Oct-19-06 AT 09:59?AM (MST)

Nicolai,

Thanks for your opinion & you are right about the G-4's being shaped different. I looked at that myself, as I said before I am not a 100% sure on this bull but the other bull I am. It is very hard to tell on this bull if the other points are exact but the g-1 & g-2 are pretty darn close from what I can tell (crappy pictures). I was waiting for someone to question me on the differences but no one had until you. I made my conclusion because of the character point & the location of this bull & his cows. This area has a decent number of elk just not in the location that this bull was found the last two years. I appreciate the comparison you gave me of your buddies bull.


NMBULLSLAYER,

I know the drop does not seem right to me either, I am just telling you what I have put together. This whole thing did get me thinking that if a bull was at the peak of his antler growth last year (the best year Arizona has had for antler growth in 10+ years) & had a tuff hard rut trying to keep his 30 cows together (maybe an injury or two). Then throw in the FACT that we did not get rain for some 150 days or so this winter, maybe just maybe an older bull like this might drop off that much...


Too all,

I started this thread just to give some people that might not spend that many days in the field an example of how much timely rains (in Arizona) have an impact on antler growth. The bottom line this thread is based on my opinion, which I definetly don't claim myself to be an expert but I do spend a number of days, weeks & months in the field. If you have your opinion & it differs from mine or somebody elses that is fine. I don't know why on this site more than any other forum site people seem to get ripped for posting their opinions, I have seen it time after time. Why someone just can't suck it up & say thanks but here is mine is beyond me. I apprieciate all of your opinions on this bull & subject & will put some of it in my memory bank.

Thanks,
Craig Steele
(Not an expert just someone that hunts his @#$ off!)
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-19-06 AT 03:20PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Oct-19-06 AT 03:19?PM (MST)

Craig, you finally drew an elk tag, and it was on a somewhat slow year as far as archery elk go. Way things go, hopefully in another 10 years when you finally draw another in this state it'll be a better year. Did you end up with video you were hoping for, and are you still planning on releasing your elk video this next year, I've kinda been looking forward to it. If you are, any idea on what month.

Maybe they'll up the number of tags in that unit again next year so we all can get drawn and hunt shoulder to shoulder.

AZG&F is the downfall of hunting in Arizona!!!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-19-06 AT 03:51PM (MST)[p]Pete,

Yeah, it took me 6 years(in my home state) but eventually I will get another tag. I could have hunted some 350-360 type bulls at the begining of the hunt but I wanted something better. By the time I decided to hunt them things were to darn spooked & pushed around. Again, I could have shot & or hunted something else but I chose not too. I did get some pretty good footage but I did not get everything that I was after. This year just added more drama to the story! I would expect it to be on this site around March of 2008.

They definetly seem like they want to add more permits, all you can do is go to the meetings & express your concerns. The rest is up to them.
 

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