Alton CWMU Fences

[bart]

Well it is time to start a new post to beat to death.. the decline of trophy mule deer post takes way to long to download for my slow computer. However I am really interested in the last couple posts of the 230 plus given... specifically kg response...I copied it and posted it on the public forum and afterwards thought it was kinda chicken to do it as a guest...So after months of reading and enjoying the posts I will finally register and post. Am I the only one with a slow computer?? anyways if what kg posted is true, it makes me sick!!!! Forgive me kg for copying this agian..I hope you don't mind?

bart

kg states,

"I heard that the DWR just awarded the Alton cwmu six more tags? The biologist recommended cuts across the board and public tags have been cut notably. Landowner tags have also been reduced drastically. The CWMU, after some public and published pressure, begrudgingly agreed to cut also - I thought. The latest thing I heard is that they have now appealed and been awarded more tags. This against the recommendation of their own biologist? Anyone heard anything? I may be wrong so I'm just asking. I wonder if the Alton ranchers used the video of their head guide locking that huge muley in the alfalfa field last year and shooting it against the new high fence on opening morning? That's September 1st by the way. Before all of the other tags on the unit are good. Oh yeah, and it was the best buck taken on the unit all year.

I saw it several times as it made it's way to the alfalfa from bed or visa-versa. 30+, cheaters, good frome, etc. It was the best buck I could find on the unit. Many saw it last summer. The sad thing is that first time I saw it in July, I felt sorry for it. I knew it would die September 1st. Imagine it making its way the last night of August to the Alfalfa sidling along the high fence to the OPEN gate. Imagine it's return in the morning to find a truck parked there and it's routine exit blocked. Imagine it dying in an alfalfa field against a tall fence that had been designed to keep it out - without a chance! Not alot different than driving up to a herd on the Alton bench and shooting the best buck out of it - well, I guess it is a little different. Same result though. Fifteen years of it!!!!! No wonder we lowlanders have been sick about deer hunting the last ten. We got to see what was here in the early 90's and have to compare it to what we have now. The biggest reason for the decline of trophy mule deer on the Pansagaunt is PAINFULLY OBVIOUS.

Results? Accountability? Consequences?"

 

[30inchbucks]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-07-04 AT 04:53PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-07-04 AT 04:47?PM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Jan-07-04 AT 04:44?PM (MST)

Bart,
I'll post this again because the rumors have come from reliable sources. And another big buck that was taken down there on the archery hunt was supposedly surrounded by guides packing radios. We will never know for sure unless witnesses actually come forward or the culprits that did it start feeling guilty and admit to it.Yah right. As long as they keep getting away with it and the public does nothing, change will never take place. My question is, When is this crap going to stop? How many big bucks have to die this way before someone wakes up! What a circus!
"Kg,
"It makes me sick to think how that deer died too. When I first saw that fence over there (Alton) and how high it was I was thinking to myself, why in the world would they build a fence like that? And when I seen the deer and how they entered the alfalfa fields down the main road I knew what they had in mind. You talk about unethical. The fish and game are accountable just as you say. They're the ones that have started this crap and they're the ones that need to put a stop to it! That fence needs to be cut down for one and I really can't believe they gave them that many tags again! This thing is getting really out of hand! Heck, let's just sale tickets for the circus show! That's what hunting is being turned into is a circus. Put a tent over it! This nonsense needs to stop and we need to hold the fish and game accountable and force them to change some things. The public has to band together in order to change what is going on. Obviously, the fish and game isn't going to do anything without a public uprising. If everyone just sits back and thinks, oh someone else will do it then things will get worse and worse. The time is now! Let's get together and change it! If not, I can guarantee some middle of the night fence sabotage trips!"
post #230 on the decline of the trophy mule deer post
Post #61 overall!

 

[JoeCamel]

RE: Alton CWMU

I watch and read this site with great interest like so many do, wanting to respond, yet hesitating each time I log on. I finally reponded (1) time in the long thread of the decline of the trophy mule deer on the paunsagaunt. I mainly expressed my views of the decline of the trophy buck on this unit. I stand firm in those beliefs even more with a response I recieved vie e-mail from Wade Heaton who is the president over his unit.
I respond this way over an open forum for the mirror fact that I am tired of meetings with this unit. Yes I watched my father numerous times meet with them over issues, leaving with a smile and a hand shake with no avail. I watched meetings were paunsagaunt landowners and the cwmu leader were present. They met with a group called friends of the paunsagaunta couple years back and were asked to start cutting tags because the trophy buck was gone on this unit. Nothing was ever done. Meetings will not happen with me wade, THEY ARE MEANINGLESS!! If you want to respond to me we will do it over this forum. Don't call me either. I have seen what you have done to the little man of the cwmu. We will not be pushed around on are little 400 private acres. Try as you will, it is only going to get bigger and bigger. These open forums can be a very beneficial because people can voice there views. We are not stirring up a pot. You have already got it boiling. With that I leave your response to me ,over the post #208, on the decline of the trophy mule deer. Look forward to hearing from you and answer some questions that I have about the paunsagaunt cwmu.

Mickey-

Hope the holidays were good to you. Enjoyed your post on Monstermuleys, fairly entertaining. I have been meaning to get with you and your dad since mid August but things have been quite busy. I guess our dads talked a few months ago and it sounds like you were a little bitter about a few things (turning in your hunter for trespassing) and your dad wanted to have a little sit down visit. I agree 100%.
A quick side note, of all the people that hate the CWMU - scratch that - of all the people that hate me, only 1 (one) has ever had the balls to come and express his opinions and try to work to some solution. That was your dad, I have always respected him for that - a lot. I sure wish that trait could have passed on to you my friend. I understand that you are bitter, but what I don't understand is why you feel the need to vent to everyone but the CWMU. Working together with the CWMU is the quickest way to solve your issues but for some reason you refuse. I understand your post on MonsterMuleys, though chicken ##### and 90% lies or inaccurate, I understand it. Lord knows I have been guilty of trying to stir up the pot on the stupid site but I always know it was chicken ##### and that it would never accomplish anything. From your post, it was obvious that your beef is with the CWMU, so come TALK TO US!!!!!!.
As you know, we are neighbors, like it or not. I also have Lutherwood leased now. We are going to be working with one another, so we might as well try to might it as good as possible.
At some point we do need to talk out the issues you raised in your post, but now probably isn't the time. You have a lot good arguments, but I think if you took the time to unpiss yourself and learn the truth about what is really going on, you wouldn't have some much heartburn with the compromise. We are trying to make this thing work, we do understand where you are coming from. This isn't just about money!! I think if you took the time to sit down and talk you would realize that.
Not to go off on some rant, but I don't understand why you have such issue with a family trying to make the most of what resources they have. I respect your family greatly for what they have done. It took courage, discipline and hard work to accomplish what your family has and guess what - many people hate you for it. Because you had the balls to try something different and it worked and they didn't take the sacrifice required and try it. You know this, so why are you so resentful toward our family for doing almost the same. It makes reason stare.
Anyway, I will try to get ahold of you soon. I will be out of town for next 12 days, but we should meet asap. Thanks for your time.

Wade Heaton

 

[pointblank]

RE: Alton CWMU

Without cuts, DEEP CUTS the Pauns as we have known it is gone. It may be too late.
Tag cuts were decided across the board for public, PLA, and CWMU.
Each group had been cut. There seems to be something wrong with having more tags allocated to the CWMU.

In the post that 30inchbucks started someone was wanting a responce from Landowners or people affected by the Landowner tags and guides on the unit.

I fall into both those catergories. We have owned 8000 acres smack dab in the center of the unit. Not much compared to the Alton CWMU but a pretty goodly chunk on the rest. I have received landowner tags and guided over several years. I have arranged leases on several other ranches for friends who, some years, didn't even hunt the unit simply to give the deer a few private places to hang out and avoid the pressure. We have cut back and will completely cut back if that is what it takes to have a future herd.
A problem I see here is comparable to waiting along a steam with your fishing pole and a license to catch fish begining on October 14th. Meanwhile there has been someone else 2 miles up stream hookin all the trout while they are still trapped in the runs at the hatchery. If you don't think that has an impact on the quality of fish your going to see down stream, lay off the glue.

I'd like to hear more about the extra tags requested by the Alton CWMU. I'd like to hear from someone with the state as to the rational behind issuing said tags. I'd like to learn more about this great buck trapped in the high fences and butchered.

To steal a line from someone with an awsome command of the words. Accountability? Consequences? Results?

pb

 

[jdh]

RE: Alton CWMU

Does anyone know why the DWR has always allowed cwmu's to hunt sep 1st with a rifle? This has always kinda puzzled me since the start...why can't they hunt the same time, with the same weapons as the rest of state?

jdh

 

[fin little]

RE: Alton CWMU

Pointblank, excellent analogy . The fish hatchery comparison helps explain why every tag issued on the cwmu is critical. The area around Alton basicly produces a high percentage of the buck herd on the Pauns. I think its fair to say that the hunts on the cwmu run near if not at 100% success. That success % also represents the cream of the crop of the mature bucks that summer around Alton. Tiger has stated here on MM in the past, that the Sept hunts on the cwmu are a nesesary evil.I think it has to do with the time it takes to run however many 5 day hunts they have, before the deer migrate. I think this is why the cwmu needs to at least cut thier tags as much as everyone. I would prefer they cut deeper, due to the time frame they are hunting, Or at least run the Sept hunts as archery hunts as they shoud be. What happens up at Alton really effects alot of us down hill. Basically every tag issued on the cwmu represents the end of a mature buck. We are running out of them in a hurry.I remember watching a video that was filmed on the cwmu and Tiger was asked why the Pauns was struggling. His reply was that they were over harvesting the bucks on the unit. ahhh Ya!

 

[Packout]

RE: Alton CWMU

I was at the November Wildlife Board Meeting in Salt Lake for the Big Game decisions and the Alton Unit Rep, (I'd rather not use someones name on an internet site), was there to ask for more permits than the DWR recommened to give. As I recall, the Rep said that at a prior meeting, a DWR biologist and he agreed on a number of permits only to have the number reduced later. The Rep went on to explain that the Alton CWMU was high fencing, at their cost, some of the fields and the town of Alton to keep the deer from being a problem to those not involved in the CWMU.

The Wildlife Board then gave him the extra permits, against the wishes of the DWR. The Wildlife Board also gave the Alton CWMU 3 management permits mixed in with their private permits on the "Word" of the Rep that he would give them as management permits to Youth hunters. The CWMU has given out the management permits in the past to youth. This is how I remember it.

You guys that are so concerned should show up at these meetings where public policies are set and voice your opinions.

jdh- I have been told that the overall CWMU program starts their rifle hunts early to make it appealing to have them enter the CWMU program. The DWR figures that with limited pressure the CWMU will harvest their allotted animals, no matter if it is Sept 1 or Oct 31. Now this varies widely between CWMUs. The Alton for example, would not have a deer on it by the 3rd week of Oct, while other CWMUs don't have a deer on them until late Oct. Some CWMUs have the deer on them year round because they contain the Deer's summer, transition, and winter ranges. Some CWMUs lie within limited entry unit boundaries and some lie in general units - which should be a big difference in how they are handled. I do believe the overall CWMU program is good for both the wildlife and the public hunters, but there are always those who will take advantage of the system.

 

[pointblank]

RE: Alton CWMU

I believe that one of the goals of the DWR and the Alton CWMU is to promote "Fairchase".

What is fair about hunting with a rifle while all other areas are delayed and required to hunt archery???

What is fair about using fences that were designed to protect agriculture to now contain another cash crop???

Packout,
"The DWR figures that with limited pressure the CWMU will harvest their allotted animals, no matter if it is Sept 1 or Oct 31" That is crazy!!!! There are no "Allotted animals" There is no harvest objective here. The CWMU is given a number of tags which they sell to "compensate" for crop damage and such. The tags are sold. The money is collected. The animals are HUNTED. Harvest numbers don't enter the equation. Sure it gets tough to maintain a premium price if you don't harvest. Sure there aren't as many willing to doll out the cash and then also put in the extra time and effort to use archery tackle.
I know that the fences were to protect crop and others not included in the CWMU. That doesn't make it right to use them to pen animals. Consequences??

Someone needs to take a closer look.

pb

 

[Skunkterd]

RE: Alton CWMU

ANYONE WHO THINKS THESE (CWMUs AKA CORRUPT WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT UNITS) ARE A GOOD THING FOR MULE DEER OR THE GENERAL PUBLIC IS AN "ABSOLUTE FOOL"

 

[Skunkterd]

RE: Alton CWMU

LAST EDITED ON Jan-10-04 AT 01:36PM (MST)[p]THESE UNITS WERE ONLY CREATED WITH LANDOWNERS, OUTFITTERS & BIG MONEY IN MIND.

 

[ktg]

RE: Alton CWMU

The Alton CWMU seems to be following in the footsteps of the UDWR. Suck out all they can today & screw tomorrow.

 

[Packout]

RE: Alton CWMU

PB- I was just telling you what I saw at the Wildlife Board meeting in November. Why weren't you there?? You post on an internet site to express your opinion, but that does nothing to better the situation. Go to the meetings that matter and speak out there.

As to some of your points:
"What is fair about hunting with a rifle while all other areas are delayed and required to hunt archery???" On most private land CWMUs the deer don't know the difference between Sept 1 or Oct 31. They are not pressured as a general hunt and are easily hunted. No difference shooting a deer on a CWMU Sept 1 or on our ranch during the general rifle hunt in Oct. None are as wild as a buck on top of the mountain getting "Public" pressure.

"What is fair about using fences that were designed to protect agriculture to now contain another cash crop???" Nothing is fair about it. It should not be done. The DWR paid our neighbor (Central Utah) to high fence 20 acres of alfalfa and Christmas trees, then this guy opens the gate in mid Spet and closes it at 2:00am on opening day of the rifle hunt and shoots the bucks trapped inside. It sucks!! Nothing is fair about it to the deer, other hunters, or the public. There should be consequences.

There are harvest objectives. There are allotted tags to the CWMUs and they are NOT unlimited. That is why the DWR reccommended LESS tags for the Alton unit, BUT the Wildlife Board gave them MORE because no one showed up to speak out against MORE tags.

As for the Stupidity of my CWMUs are comment....I was not referring specically to the Alton. I know of 5 ranches consisting of more than 80,000 acres that would be subdivided and sold IF there was not a CWMU program. I am sure there are more. In todays world of $2,000 acre mountain ground, low livestock returns and Estate TAXES, the CWMU provides an income to supplement many ranchers. Many ranches in the CWMU program contain winter range for Public lands deer and many also produce the bucks to breed some of the Public lands herds. Every year hundreds of public hunters get the opportunity to hunt private lands that would otherwise be locked up. My wife had a great hunt on a CWMU and shot a nice deer. My father-in law also has shot 2 good deer off CWMUs. My Sister shot a good buck on a CWMU and had the best time ever on a hunt.

Is the system perfect?? NO! Can it be better? Probably. But it is alot better than the alternative of 1 acre Cabin lots, subdivisions, Locked gates, loss of winter range, and Depredation tags.

 

[jdh]

RE: Alton CWMU

Point blank makes a good point about fishing... Maybe all us fellows down stream ought to get together, lease a bunch of land down in the canyon, make a cwmu and get in on the action. It can't be that hard to get one, heck there are 75 cwmu's alone for buck deer in Utah now. I wonder how many their wehere 10 years ago. Now, since the deer won't be there on Sept 1st. We will just opt to have our hunt start after the muzzle loader hunt ends. Lets say Nov 15th to the end of the year. Hunt with rifles during the peak of the rut and we will get a few of those that made it down stream..

Okay, that would be wrong, I know...But it's really not that much different than smoking one with a rifle on sept. 1st up stream. I don't blame the Alton cwmu for this, they are with-in the law. The DWR needs to re-think this one. Stop killing OUR deer with rifles when they should be archery hunted. If the Alton cwmu was to kill all their big bucks with a bow the first two weeks of september and then hunt with muzzleloader the last two, than with a rifle in october...oh wait I guess that would be to much like normal.

I wonder how the bioligist feels about more tags being alloted to the cwmu against his decision, if we are not going to listen to the bioligist why do we even have one!!

jdh

 

[Skunkterd]

RE: Alton CWMU

LAST EDITED ON Jan-10-04 AT 10:22PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-10-04 AT 10:21?PM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Jan-10-04 AT 10:19?PM (MST)

Packout?
This part or your statement is such B.S. I have heard this so much it make me want to puke. Landowners cry poverty & try to hold the DWR hostage by saying if you don't give us what we want then I guess we will just sell and develop our land. Bull$hit all large landowners were doing fine before & are doing a hell of a lot better now. The only ones who were ever hurting & are still hurting are small landowners & the CWMU program does little for them


Your statement
I know of 5 ranches consisting of more than 80,000 acres that would be subdivided and sold IF there was not a CWMU program. I am sure there are more. In today?s world of $2,000 acre mountain ground, low livestock returns and Estate TAXES, the CWMU provides an income to supplement many ranchers.

 

[AZBuckSnort]

RE: Alton CWMU

Jeremy,
If those that run the Alton CWMU would stop and take a look at the long term outlook of hunting trophy mule deer they'd certainly run their hunts differently than the way they do. If their actions are depleting the numbers of mature age class bucks then they are going to hunt themselves right out of business. Wouldn't it be in their best interest to do something like you've suggested and switch their hunting program to primitive ( and I mean that only as a descriptive term and not a literal one) weapon hunt? Wouldn't having ONLY archery and muzzleloader hunts with reduced numbers of permits on an entirely non-high-fenced unit make their herd numbers bounce back fairly quickly and increase the numbers of older age class deer?

With the popularity of archery & muzzleloader hunting it would seem that the Alton unit would have no shortage of paying customers anxious to have an opportunity to hunt and harvest a trophy buck. Heck, even seeing lots of mature bucks makes the majority of archery hunters happy ven if they do not actually bag one! After reading most of these threads that speak specifically about the Alton area CWMU, it appears they are headed for a tragic ending, both for their hunting business and more importantly for the mule deer herd on their piece of the Paunsaugunt.

FYI, there is a movement underfoot that is gathering steam to bring the CWMU type program to the landowners of Arizona. They are organizing and have a determined focus to obtain landowner permits to sell to the all too willing high bidders to pursue elk, mule deer, and pronghorn on the ranch lands of Arizona. Whether or not they will be able to work something out with the AZG&F Dept remains to be seen but make no mistake, they want tags to sell and have enough data, in their minds anyway, to back up their claims that they need the tags to compensate them for their agricultural and property damage due to the wildlife on their private property. The recent Mad Cow Disease scares and the subsequent foreign import bans by significant overseas markets, has to be a further jolt to the beef ranchers' income potential and the need to supplement that income with something like landowner hunting permits is very appealing to them. According to some involved with this issue the financial pressures on the ranchers to remain profitable make the frequent offers from land developers increasingly attractive. The loss of hunting access could be devastating if any of the private ranchers that presently allow access lock up their gates and turn the countryside into 5 acre ranchettes or go to a pay as you play hunting operation.

Sorry for the long post! In the end it sounds like the Alton operation is in trouble and making some changes would be beneficial for everyone and everything.
Regards,
Jim Rich

 

[pointblank]

RE: Alton CWMU

Packout,
You have made many good points. Yes I should have been to the meeting in Nov. It is frustrating though when you attend meetings and it seems decisions are already set in concrete or are being made by some dept. head disregarding local input or input from paid specialists.
I totally disagree with you idea that Sept 1 or Oct 31 makes no difference. You might find a few friendly bucks that will pose a time or two but most will vanish into the heavy timber once they have rubbed the velvet.
I realize that migration plays into the Alton CWMU and many of these bucks aren't around later. Fine go ahead and start hunting in August like everyone else, just use the same gear.
A fence is a fence is a fence... I don.t care if it's in alton or Tabiona. I don't care if it protects alfalfa, trees or watermelons. If it is used as some of these have been, to trap and slaughter mule deer, there needs to be some CONSEQUENCES.
The consequences should not include receiving more tags. Possibly losing a few tags or a big pile of cash. You know that's what would happen if you or I tried a trick like that.

I agree that a properly run CWMU can provide sportsmen the opportunity to hunt areas they other wise would never have access to. I fully understand that money generated from "hunting" helps keep these properties from being developed and lost completely to the hunter, which also maintains the habitat the herd needs to survive. This is all of no worth if we maintain habitat and provide hunter access and there are no deer left to enjoy said habitat or be hunted by said hunters.
Let's not grab all we can now at the expense of the future herd.

pb

 

[ktg]

RE: Alton CWMU

I agree with what you said; however, nobody will pay them $10,000 to archery hunt there. They would have to cut their prices so cutting rifle tags would be the same to them, and it looks like that's not an option in their eyes. It seems things are going to have to play out to the end which I think means they 'hunt themselves out of business' as you said. That's what made the Pausaugunt so good in the first place. The DWR mismanaged as they are now and had to close the unit because it got so bad. Eventually the Alton's clients will decide that the price isn't worth the quality of bucks that remain. The sad part is that the best big buck area in Utah is gone for the rest of us.

 

[Packout]

RE: Alton CWMU

PointBlank- You have made some good posts and comments. I agree with everything in your above post. I think you are right about the bucks being easier before they rub their velvet. I still believe that the deer are easier to hunt period because they are on private land, no matter if it is late Sept or Oct 31.

I went to the Meeting in Nov for the elk weapon split and some deer issues. I just happened to stay long enough to listen to the Alton discussion. Their Rep made it sound like they are doing the whole state of Utah a favor by fencing the town and surrounding farms not invovled in the CWMU. I think that is why the Wildlife Board gave them their tags back. Don't blame it on the DWR, blame it on the Wildlife Board - Who were also the same people that gave AR301 the Wasatch against Biologist wishes.

I would be infavor of a law stating that High fences cannot be used to contain wildlife for the purpose of hunting. Hard to watch deer slam into fences, trying to get away from idiots shooting at them. Sounds like we have the same type of neighbors.

I heard that the average deer off the Alton has gone to 175 and some of the best hardly broke 185 the last couple years. That is why many of their clients have moved north to greener pastures and better deer.

And if we could get Arizona to stop shooting them into the rut..........

 

[conch]

RE: Alton CWMU

I would like to see an unsophisticated approach to ?ranching for wildlife.? A very quick and unpolished synopsis goes like this. Landowners could be compensated for property damage by simply charging a trespass fee. No CWMU needed! Any rancher with a property damage issue, or not would simply sale hunting rights to a particular number of properly licensed hunters, supply and demand being the key. If a genuine depredation problem unfolds, a rancher would sell more hunts for less money or wrangle for quality and offer reduced access, attracting hunters willing to pay larger sums of dinero. Either way, a ?fair and equitable? compensation for damages takes place. Is this considered a ?pay as you play? operation? If so, maybe I haven't thought out all the angles. I would just like to see some sort of happy medium here.
And . . . by the way! One of the supposed benefits to CWMU?s is, land that would otherwise be off limits to the public, is now open access. Before the CWMU program was in place, I didn't have any trouble gaining entrance to private land, by just asking! Nowadays, without a thick wallet, I don't think so! Take a close look at the draw odds for any top producing CWMU, and tell me I'm ever, realistically going to hunt it!
I hope key people in Arizona realize what a ?kettle of fish? the CWMU in Utah has turned into.
I wonder who is spear heading the movement to bring the CWMU type program to the unknowing citizens of the great state of Arizona! I have my suspicions, (gc) and would like to share the information, but don't need the headache!

 

[conch]

RE: Alton CWMU

I would like to see an unsophisticated approach to ?ranching for wildlife.? A very quick and unpolished synopsis goes like this. Landowners could be compensated for property damage by simply charging a trespass fee. No CWMU needed! Any rancher with a property damage issue, or not would simply sale hunting rights to a particular number of properly licensed hunters, supply and demand being the key. If a genuine depredation problem unfolds, a rancher would sell more hunts for less money or wrangle for quality and offer reduced access, attracting hunters willing to pay larger sums of dinero. Either way, a ?fair and equitable? compensation for damages takes place. Is this considered a ?pay as you play? operation? If so, maybe I haven't thought out all the angles. I would just like to see some sort of happy medium here.
And . . . by the way! One of the supposed benefits to CWMU?s is, land that would otherwise be off limits to the public, is now open access. Before the CWMU program was in place, I didn't have any trouble gaining entrance to private land, by just asking! Nowadays, without a thick wallet, I don't think so! Take a close look at the draw odds for any top producing CWMU, and tell me I'm ever, realistically going to hunt it!
I hope key people in Arizona realize what a ?kettle of fish? the CWMU in Utah has turned into.
I wonder who is spear heading the movement to bring the CWMU type program to the unknowing citizens of the great state of Arizona! I have my suspicions, (gc) and would like to share the information, but don't need the headache!

 

[conch]

RE: Alton CWMU

I would like to see an unsophisticated approach to ?ranching for wildlife.? A very quick and unpolished synopsis goes like this. Landowners could be compensated for property damage by simply charging a trespass fee. No CWMU needed! Any rancher with a property damage issue, or not would simply sale hunting rights to a particular number of properly licensed hunters, supply and demand being the key. If a genuine depredation problem unfolds, a rancher would sell more hunts for less money or wrangle for quality and offer reduced access, attracting hunters willing to pay larger sums of dinero. Either way, a ?fair and equitable? compensation for damages takes place. Is this considered a ?pay as you play? operation? If so, maybe I haven't thought out all the angles. I would just like to see some sort of happy medium here.
And . . . by the way! One of the supposed benefits to CWMU?s is, land that would otherwise be off limits to the public, is now open access. Before the CWMU program was in place, I didn't have any trouble gaining entrance to private land, by just asking! Nowadays, without a thick wallet, I don't think so! Take a close look at the draw odds for any top producing CWMU, and tell me I'm ever, realistically going to hunt it!
I hope key people in Arizona realize what a ?kettle of fish? the CWMU in Utah has turned into.
I wonder who is spear heading the movement to bring the CWMU type program to the unknowing citizens of the great state of Arizona! I have my suspicions, (GC) and would like to share the information, but don't need the headache!

 

[kg]

RE: Alton CWMU

For the record I would like to thank Adam Bronson, the biologist who recommended the cuts at the last meeting and apologize for not being there. I would also like to thank SFW who lobbied to cut tags in the first place. After a little research it has become obvious to me that without their unified voice we would still be issuing 400 tags and killing any number of does. Because of their organization, most of the issues that face the Pansagaunt have begun to be adressed. One hasn't: The Alton CWMU and how it uniquely affects this potentially premium unit.

I have heard it estimated that over half of the Pansagaunt bucks summer on the CWMU? If this is true, how can it be that skimming the best 30 off the top and sending the rest to BREED year after year is not a huge factor in the decline of the entire unit? Not only the decline in trophy CWMU deer but forest deer also. See, deer don't run upstream to spawn. They migrate south after the CWMU hunt. Forest deer and CWMU deer alike. Forest deer are bred by what's left of the CWMU bucks year after year. This after they have been ultra- selectively picked over and the very best genes shot out of the herd in September each year. It's just too easy with a rifle in September! Hardly one deer that is marked for harvest slips through their fingers to breed next years does. Slowly the number of large animals in both areas is selectively reduced because the does that migrate back up to both areas are carrying genetically inferior fawns. After fifteen years, you have what we have, the land of the 24 incher.

For the record, my railings against the CWMU are not necessarily directed at those who run it and I in no way think this is the only problem on the unit. I think they are a good family making the most of what they have. I understand their rush to kill the best and the biggest each year before they migrate to Arizona to be blasted on a late rut hunt. I understand that to cut tags they may need to consolodate the unit so it is not just the little man who has to cut tags when tags are cut. My question has always been to those who turn their heads while the unit rapidly declines. I thought that was the DWR but have recently come face to face with the fact that it is ME! Let's get unified on the Arizona issue and the others that we can while we try to work the others out reasonably. I can't believe they (The CWMU) are satisfied with what is comming back each year either. Let's quit killing them on both ends though.

I gave up on what I thought was a loosing battle ten years ago. I think I want to jump back in the fray. Not just the CWMU battle (just one of many issues facing the Pansagaunt herd) but the battle to restore huge mule deer to the Pansagaunt. Many thing are headed in the right direction and many need to be researched and intelligently adressed by a unified group of people with the same goals. SFW has shown me that a difference can be made. I only want what is fair and I'm not sure exactly what that is right now. I can recognize what is not.

If you are interested in the things that have been discussed recently on these forums we need to get together in a much more credible and ACCOUNTABLE setting. A setting that might actually produce some RESULTS (and actual names). Please contact me if you are interested in creating a chapter of SFW in the Kane County area. I have been in contact with many many people who are ready to get organized and help recover what we have lost. Some are already diong it through other avenues. SFW assures me that our voice will be heard and I BELIEVE THEM. They share some of the same views. More than anything they are doing something positive and I can see results.

Sincerely,

Klint Glover
Kanab Utah

I trust most of you can find a way to contact me. I'm in the book. We are in the process of organizing a meeting/dinner etc.

Thanks
kg

 

[bart]

RE: Alton CWMU

Man, I guess there are a couple stories about cwmu's using high fences to bag the big one's. Heck with 8 bonus points maybe I'll put in for a cwmu tag. I think even with my skills I would have a good chance at harvesting a trophy buck if he COULDN'T run away from me. What a joke..I feared the rumors about high fences were true. Looks like they are!!!

I thought cwmu's were supposed to promote ethical hunting?? Not disgrace hunting and give all hunting a black eye..

bart

 

[jdh]

RE: Alton CWMU

Klint, Count me in.

Jim, thanks for your comments and I agree with what you have said. I hope those of us who can become united and work together can bring some changes to the Pauns...and get it back to what it is capable of.. "Monster Muleys"

jdh

 

[SMC]

RE: Alton CWMU

Klint, I'm wanting in also....time to get something done.Give me a call when things start happening.

Sean C.

 

[JoeCamel]

RE: Alton CWMU

I am glad to see somethings going to happen. I am IN!!! If anyone wants to help the cause, feel free to email me and will get info and pass it on. [email protected]
mick

 

[kg]

RE: Alton CWMU

Thanks for all of the feedback and calls. I will also have a new home e- mail address available specifically for this purpose after today. It will be [email protected]. Thank you very much.

Klint