We're Killin Ourselves

W

woodey

Guest
Well after reading the all the posts regarding the Arizona and Nevada Auction Tags, I have to say that none of this is helping the hunters image. Studies have validated the concept that the general public does not object to hunting as a way to continue family traditions and to engage in the outdoors as we know it. However, with all the bad that comes with these auction tags, are we not only fueling the anti's fire?

A couple of items that have come to the top of the disgrace list as brought forward with these posts:

Securing a "rush" guide licenses so a finders fee can be paid by some rich guy to some poor guy who prostitutes himself and the animals we love to hunt; allegations of double crossing by one outfitter against another outfitter so that some "shooter" can kill a big bull in July; hunting bulls in July???; claims that some dude has the rights to a particular animal because he claims he spotted it 1st; ranging someones house to make sure that some arbitrary measurement is not violated only to later have the spot of the "shooter" and the spot where the bull was shot get called into question; having to finish off an elk on someones private property while some homeowner has a meltdown after watching the neighborhood bull get wacked; hunting bulls in a subdivison?.

Is any of this benefiting what we love to do? I know the auction hunters and those who feed off them will jump all over this and talk about all the money that was raised for "projects" that will benefit wildlife and all of us, but is this not an example of diminishing returns?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-31-07 AT 02:50PM (MST)[p]>so that some "shooter" can
>kill a big bull in
>July; hunting bulls in July???;

Edit: I do agree with your post.

Just curious, why are you not complaining about California's archery deer season then? It started in July for anyone with an archery tag. Why the inconsistancy?



-DallanC
 
I believe the "anyone" is the qualifier. Whereas the money tags are not for anyone nor are they part of a general season. Many states have July big game seasons based on biological need. I don't beleive most have concern for these seasons. The concern is for a special season due to the cost and circumstance of a money tag, that creates grief.

Anyway:


AMEN

Travis Sparks
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-31-07 AT 02:59PM (MST)[p]>>Just curious, why are you not complaining about California's archery deer season then?<<

Dallan,

I think I can asnwer that, though a dead elk is a dead elk, regardless of when it gets dead. ;-)

The difference is there are NO other hunters competing for the same critters when only ONE person is in the field with a legal tag, which is quite unlike a general archery season in July.

BUT...of course..that's exactly why these people pay the big money for auction tags -- to gain an advantage over those hunters who do not pay it. -TONY
 
Not all bulls hunted in July are auction tags.
It's a very rare and limited opportunity that only very few places give the chance to take a bull in velvet and are sold and booked just like any guided hunt. The cost comes because of the supply & demand. And the time frame is beacuse of the natural velvet shedding that takes place at the end of July, early August, not to get the "first crack" at a big bull.

But i can agree somewhat, fighting over a "public ground" animal doesn't make things look too good and it's too bad it's came to that.
 
Better to pretend all of it doesn't exist ?

Sweep it under the rug ?

I'll tell you this - if we don't clean up hunting, if we don't revert BACK to what hunting was, if we, as hunters, don't carry out our own trash, the ARA's and politicians will do it for us and all the "good" and ethical hunters will be going down with those that disgrace our sport.

money and greed is killing the sport of hunting
 
BradLantz wrote:

"I'll tell you this - if we don't clean up hunting, if we don't revert BACK to what hunting was"

How far back should we "revert"? 1950, 1900, 1850, 1800, 1750, 1700, 1650, 1600, 1550, 1500, 1450, 1400, 1350,........?

That is a nonsensical statement. Hunting and hunters have evolved since man killed the first critter how many THOUSANDS/MILLIONS of years ago? Now you want to "revert" back to "what hunting was". What exactly "was" hunting, and what is it now? Can you say for certain the caveman didn't talk smack when he brought home a B&C T-Rex?

I am not going to 'share' my view of this Nevada bull deal, I am simply responding to the absurd comment that we need to "revert BACK to what hunting was".

PRO
 
I believe there should be more regulations put on the auction tags. Shooting a bull elk with a rifle in July??? Go pat yourself on the back for that. I do not see it as a trophy however. Paying a guide several thousand $$$ to find a 400 bull for you that he paid someone a finders fee for?? Go pat yourself on he back, congratulations, you have money to throw away. Does not seem like an accomplishment to me.
Our sport in turning into a money hungry industry. Willing to cheat other people, willing to put your ethics into question shooting the neighborhood bull in someones back yard. Even if you were 60 yards past a 1/4 mile.
Guess it doesn't really matter what I think. But I will never buy another Awesome Bulls or Mossback video.
 
Sorry, My point was how disgraceful all of this looks. Yes we archery hunt blacktails in July and some states have antelope archery hunts in July, but those hunts are for EVERYONE who has a tag. It is a far cry from the "auction" hunter showing up with his private army of spotters; with his super magnum; no one else is on the unit hunting, and they still end up in some sort of lame A** controversy about the killing of these animals.

It just seems wrong, that now the auction tag holders are showing up in July with their private army of spotters, to shoot some bull, be the 1st to run to some mag and claim their fame. The worst part of all of this, is that all these bad facts that get revealed on these hunts which drag all of us down in the forum of public opinion.


I'm just disgusted about all of it.
 
Woodey-
What makes you think this guy that killed the big bull just wanted first crack at this bull?
Maybe he wanted one in the velvet and that's exactly what he did.
Read my post just above this one, or i can re write it-
Taking a bull in the velvet is an extremely rare and expensive opportunity. there is only about a two week window when a bull is fully grown and when he starts rubbing, and that time is in July, obviously right now.
This guy is not paying high dollars to get this bull before anyone else, the state is the one who sets the time frame for the opportunity to hunt these bulls in the velvet....not the outfitter.
 
>Woodey-
>What makes you think this guy
>that killed the big bull
>just wanted first crack at
>this bull?
>Maybe he wanted one in the
>velvet and that's exactly what
>he did.
>Read my post just above this
>one, or i can re
>write it-
>Taking a bull in the velvet
>is an extremely rare and
>expensive opportunity. there is only
>about a two week window
>when a bull is fully
>grown and when he starts
>rubbing, and that time is
>in July, obviously right now.
>
>This guy is not paying high
>dollars to get this bull
>before anyone else, the state
>is the one who sets
>the time frame for the
>opportunity to hunt these bulls
>in the velvet....not the outfitter.
>

Good form!

PRO
 
Amen woodey, Amen Bradlantz

It won't be long fellas, and it will all be gone...
 
Uh, maybe he should head to the high fence operations, and then he could get a prime velvet specimen.

Uh, wait, wrong answer. He can't do that because then it would not be "fair chase"

Who do you think your foolin. He's hunting for the best head, and all the nefarious stuff that go's on these hunts, as evidenced by the AZ and NV threads, is going to come back and affect all of us.
 
Bash the state then woodey, not the outfitters, they are who sets the dates that you don't agree with.

Is there something wrong with taking an elk in the velvet, versus the thousands of all species of deer that are taken early in the velvet??

I work for an outfitter that offers velvet elk hunts, (no not high fence!!) Our clients buy these for what they are, not for "first crack", it's becuse they wanted something that not every elk hunter has hanging on his wall.
We actually take bigger bulls later on the hard horn hunts in most cases!
 
How far back should we "revert"? 1950, 1900, 1850, 1800, 1750, 1700, 1650, 1600, 1550, 1500, 1450, 1400, 1350,........?
Click to expand...

the distance and time isn't what we're looking for, its the WHY of the hunt itsself that you need to look at.



That is a nonsensical statement. Hunting and hunters have evolved since man killed the first critter how many THOUSANDS/MILLIONS of years ago? Now you want to "revert" back to "what hunting was". What exactly "was" hunting, and what is it now? Can you say for certain the caveman didn't talk smack when he brought home a B&C T-Rex?
Click to expand...


I'll tell you this - money and greed is killing my sport, so much that at 38 years old I can remember when hunting wasn't all about antlers and score, it was about going to deer camp, sharing a camp fire, telling stories, making a grandfather, father, son trip together, teaching your children how to hunt etc.

Nowdays ? Who can you pay to find you the biggest bull. Where can you hunt that you can drive your 4 wheeler to the stand or shoot from it. How much corn does it take to bring in a P&Y buck ? Will a 10' fence work or do I need a 12' ? If he's not going to score 140" I don't want to shoot him. Can I give the meat to someone ? I just want the antlers. Speaking of, I'll just buy them off EBAY and say I killed them.

You full well know what I'm talking about too. People are astounded that I'm proud to kill a doe. They marvel that I'll shoot a one antlered buck. They cringe that I'll shoot the first legal buck I can.

Why ? Their aint no greed or braggin rights in the above scenarios and a lot of hunters now don't understand that.


I am not going to 'share' my view of this Nevada bull deal, I am simply responding to the absurd comment that we need to "revert BACK to what hunting was".

PRO
Click to expand...

absurd is it ? I'll tell you what, you can have your high fences, antler restrictions, outfitters, guides, spotters, trophy finders, antler sellers, P&Y and B&C books and the whole kit and kaboodle. If I found the magic lamp of Hunting and rubbed, I'd use my first wish as follows

#1 - upon shooting ANY antlered buck their antlers would dissappear



take that horn porn away, and all the bad stuff that goes with it goes away too
 
Brad, you are flawed in your recollection of history. I killed my first B&C in 1983, it was a big deal then. If I am not mistaken, they had big buck contests decades ago, it is NOT a new issue. In fact, Big Buck Contests were banned here in Utah in the 80's, not exactly a 'new' desire. The Broder buck was killed when? They have been fighting over that buck for many, many years, again not a new 'problem'. Did the settlers put doe heads on the walls in their saloons, or did they put big ol bucks and mossyhorned Longhorns? It makes a good Disney story the way you spin it, but your about as accurate as the movie Bambi about the state of hunting.

You said:

"I'll tell you this - money and greed is killing my sport, so much that at 38 years old I can remember when hunting wasn't all about antlers and score, it was about going to deer camp, sharing a camp fire, telling stories, making a grandfather, father, son trip together, teaching your children how to hunt etc."

It sounds like it still is for YOU, good on ya. But, if you are telling me that was the case back then for everybody, you are flat out WRONG. I am a few years older than you, and I have been a 'trophy' hunter since day freakin ONE! I still take my kids and father out, and enjoy every minute of it. When my 14 yr old daughter kills a cow elk this fall, I will be most likely teary eyed, so go preach to someone else Pastor Brad.

PRO
 
I bet the day that Nevada bull gets to the taxidermist's that coveted velvet gets stripped and the horns stained with Min-Wax. That velvet ain't stayin' on those antlers.
 
Seriously all,
I think the point is that there will always be some of us hunters that have a problem with "trophy hunting". I know I have since I was a kid. What I mean is ......hunting for the mount and "forget" about the meat. There are a lot of people that have done that....all the way back to when I was a kid and before. I PERSONALLY always look to get the biggest, baddest animal out there. Will I take a spike, raghorn, doe, cow?......heck ya man! I don't agree with "trophy" only hunters, but hey! Who am I to judge?! I do my thing.....they do theirs.....of course that their money allows! A little jealous?....yep....would I do it their way?.....nope. I eat what I kill.....period. But that's just me and my family. I would however, go for the biggest, baddest bull out there if I got picked for that awseome "super" tag in numerous states. Do I have the $ to hire guides? nope....would I if I could? probly not. I get the most out of my hunts by doing things myself. If I want target practice, I'll go to the range! DO I want a world, or state record? Hell ya baby! I wanna hunt free for the rest of my life! LOL
Archerman - Archery hunting addict!
 
KTC-
I seriously doubt this guy would strip the velvet from this bull, but i could be wrong but i hope i'm not. How rare is having a 435 bull in velvet, c'mon?? If this guy is what some of the readers here say he is, just a "trophy guy who wants the biggest baddest bull out there", why not have the biggest baddest bull in the velvet out there to make his trophy even better than the guys who already have 435' bulls!! The only reason he'd want to, is to put it in the books. But not all guys are concerned about the books and i'll bet you there are a lot of 400" plus bulls out there that have been kept quiet, i know of four myself, not too mention all the bulls that will net at the 375" but below 400!
I just don't understand all the stereotyping of the so called "trophy hunters"!!
 
Pro wrote:

How far back should we "revert"? 1950, 1900, 1850, 1800, 1750, 1700, 1650, 1600, 1550, 1500, 1450, 1400, 1350,........?

That is a nonsensical statement. Hunting and hunters have evolved since man killed the first critter how many THOUSANDS/MILLIONS of years ago? Now you want to "revert" back to "what hunting was". What exactly "was" hunting, and what is it now? Can you say for certain the caveman didn't talk smack when he brought home a B&C T-Rex?

How about 1972? That seems like a good year to me. All the hunting stories I hear from back then dont include money, greed and backstabbing so is that a good enough year for you? You most likely wont think so, back then you would be out of a job. Thats when men were men and another guys word could be trusted with a handshake. And a guy could go with his "family" and "friends" and enjoy a hunting trip AND make it a bonus if you tagged an animal.
 
sd,

I think it will get stripped, just like a pretty powder blue T-shirt. Not that I give a rats ass what he does, but if I were to bet, I say it comes off. I think 435 bulls are plenty rare?

I think it is also rare to argue about 435 bulls in July?;-)
 
I'll have to agree KTC, that is does seem strange to be talking about 435" bulls hitting the ground already only being July, but they are really not all that "rare" anymore. Hearing that big number is losing it's "wow factor" every year because it sounds like deja vu. It wasn't long ago that a 400" bull was totally incredible, now it's so common that it's getting boring if it's anything less that 420"! Hell, my neighbor raises elk for "high fence" hunts and even though they are ranch bulls, my son goes over there and feeds 400 plus bulls carrots through the fence and i get bored looking at them! I know i can't compare the two, wild & fenced, but the score and size of the antlers is what i'm talking about. I do still get excited putting a client on a 380 bull though, and anything better than that is just more frosting on the cake. And though hearing these stories of 400 and better bulls is still fun, it's like hearing stories about 200" bucks, they are very common these days no matter how or when we take them. I remember seeing magazines that had a story about a 380 bull in it, or a 190 deer and couldn't wait to read it! Now days i have magazines full of stories like that; that i haven't even looked at yet and are months and even years old!! :)
 
I really am having a hard time with this attitude that a couple of poorly executed hunts are threatening the future of hunting. The apathy of sportsmen will let hunting die, fathers not taking their sons hunting will kill hunting and the anti hunting laws will speed up the demise. If each person on this site were to introduce a new hunter to the sport this year we could help preserve our passion.

Why do hunters enjoy tearing eachother down? It is just crazy. The jelousy is insane as well. Just go hunting!
 
Perspective...

None of the events about either of these great bulls is surprising to me. There will always be trophy hunting. Most hunters want to kill the biggest animal they can; it is an indicator that they were able to outsmart a veteran that had survived many seasons and (may) validate one's skill as a hunter. Money has always had it priveledges and always will. If there is no benefit to the auction tags they won't bring the big money. I personally don't care about the relationship between the guides - that is between them and that is where it should stay not in ANY public forum! I do care about the animals and take the B&C attitude. We should celebrate these fine bulls for what they are! Truly magnificent specimens of the species! Hunters as a group will never agree on EVERYTHING but as long as no laws were broken every hunter needs to quit bashing others for the way they choose to participate. I don't think hunting will be an endangered species any time soon, but we can decide to build it up or help tear it down.
 
RE: Perspective...

Someone said it was going to 100 posts. Hell its going to 200 posts.

The big velvet bull with the boys in the blue shirts.
 
RE: Perspective...

muley62 good form
The apathy of sportsmen will let hunting die, fathers not taking their sons hunting will kill hunting and the anti hunting laws will speed up the demise. If each person on this site were to introduce a new hunter to the sport this year we could help preserve our passion.

One of the funnest hunts i have been on in a couple of years is when i took a 14 year old and a 16 year old that lived around the corner from me. the went 0 for 9 with muzzle loader and they had fun. it was good times.
 
RE: Perspective...

These Tags are one of the reasons there are BIG BULLS and healthy elk in az,nv ut co and other states. I'd rather see some guy pay 100k plus for a trophy then see a trophy poached by a jackass. Good management takes money. They, game and fish evened the field with the super raffle, one tag for the rich and one tag for the regular joe. These tags do a service to all hunters. To bad it went down like this in az, but the purpose of the tag result is the same. Guiding is a business, SH$T happens, whats the big deal?? More money for managment, Better hunting for ALL of us!!
 
RE: Perspective...

MULEYSNIPER, those stories of 1972 are just that, storie's,I hunted in 72 and 62 and 1956 and we had similar problems and much LESS deer and elk to hunt . it may have seemed like there was more game then but we just had fewer hunters , most guys hunted for the meat but there was always a contest for biggest buck and usually the winner's ethic's were challenged by someone who was unhappy about losing.Everybody talk's about the good old day's but I'm telling you brother we are living in the "good old day's " now. Try looking at the good of our sport instead of dwelling on the few situation's that you don't agree with.As someone said the only thing that will end our hunting is infighting each other and apathy. There are very few loud complainer's on these forum's that ever actually promote the sport and give back to the community, it's easier to sit and complain and hope someone else takes care of the problem.
 
RE: Perspective...

Money and Greed guys ...... the combination of the two will destroy anything, hunting included.

Money will make people shoot animals out of season so they can sell the rack. Money will make people hire a small army of scouters to "find" them trophy animals. Money will make people chase elk and deer around in early spring hoping they'll drop a shed.

Greed makes people poach animals, and then telling everyone they're legal. Greed makes outfitters hateful towards people hunting in "their area". Greed makes people take longer shots. Greed makes hunters do things they normally wouldn't, trying to get that big set of antlers on the wall.


I don't know if a change can be made at this point. I don't know if a reversal can happen. So many hunters are so caught up in "trohpy" that they're disgusted with the hunt, looking only towards the kill and what that net score is.

Like it or not, thats the direction. Say it aint so, pretend it isn't true, don't discuss it because the reality of it all isn't easy to accept is it ?
 
RE: Perspective...

I am making the statement that all the conservation tag $ is insignificant in the overall current situation of big game numbers and management in the west. Yes, even that $1,000,000+ mark that may be raised by selling conservation tags and special priveledges only provides a very minor benefit. Harsh winters, drought, natural predators, natural cyles and managed age objectives impact wildlife far more than re-seeding a few thousand acres, building 50 guzzlers, purchasing 100 acres of habitat or setting up banquet chairs. There has never been any qualified evidence supporting the theory that conservation tag$$ has definatley resulted in creating more mature buck mule deer or bull elk. Utah general season deer numbers have not had much of an approvment for several years. Season dates are still reduced in the southeastern unit and permit numbers are still reduced by 1,000 tags in the central unit. Limited entry elk units are producing trophy bulls in Utah every year because they are Limited entry! The idea that conservation tag$$ is why a state record was broken is nothing but hot air! When you are allowing only a small numbers of animals harvested the remaining animals reach older age and increase in size, not because of $100,000 was spent on a conservation tag! States adjoining Utah which do not subscribe to the myth that conservation tag $$ is a savior of wildlife are doing fine. Conservation groups can provide assistance and fullfill a need, but the conservation tag idea is not as valuable as touted. I am not intending to bash outfitters as they are providing themselves a livelyhood and they are completely ligitimate/legal businesses. I can understand why they would suport conservation tags. If I worked as or for an outfitter that guided conservtion tag holders I would defend my job security. I simply do not buy into the concept that conservation tag $$ creates a significant impact on producing mature big game animals. Conservation tags have increased greatly in Utah and are some are now evolving into possible year round hunt dates or extended winter range dates. It is also my opinion that taking the sporting element out of hunting, and placing the animal at the greatest seasonal disadvantage, places a black eye on the sport.
 
RE: Perspective...

Amen brother!! Do away with the auction tags and forego the dollars...
Ron
 
RE: Perspective...

Just do away with auction tags, landowner tags, and ranching for wildlife. All three of those things are hurting hunting in the west. Hell, you could even stop outfitting on public land and it wouldn't hurt my feelings any.
 
"I really am having a hard time with this attitude that a couple of poorly executed hunts are threatening the future of hunting. The apathy of sportsmen will let hunting die, fathers not taking their sons hunting will kill hunting and the anti hunting laws will speed up the demise. If each person on this site were to introduce a new hunter to the sport this year we could help preserve our passion.
Why do hunters enjoy tearing eachother down? It is just crazy. The jelousy is insane as well. Just go hunting! "

Good Post Chris. I'm with you 100%..... Terry
 
>Uh, maybe he should head to
>the high fence operations, and
>then he could get a
>prime velvet specimen.
>
> Uh, wait, wrong answer. He
>can't do that because then
>it would not be "fair
>chase"
>
>Who do you think your foolin.
>

Right on Woodey. Is killing a bull in July fair chase? If you're the only guy in the entire state who can hunt, and it's two months before the regular season, should that animal be eligible for "the books"?

A 340 bull killed by an ethical hunter during the regular season after hunting and scouting hard is more impressive to me than a 430 bull killed on an auction tag in July with a whole staff of head hunters out looking all summer for a finder's fee.
 
RE: Perspective...

most auction tags are good as long as they hunt during the same dates as everyone else. It's the ones that get the however long they need to shoot an animal. I hunted last year off a auction tag down on the manti's. i hunted with the rest of the hunters and all the muzzle loader deer hunters. Did i kill a 400 bull! no i didn't, i still had a good time hunting with friends.
 
RE: Perspective...

Let's call this place BUY a monster muley or elk or etc. Some of the info on recent KILLs, not hunts, because there hasn't been an elk HUNT yet, are pretty disturbing. Unbelievable. mtmuley
 

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