A
ARROWINTHEAIR
Guest
I JUST GOT EMAILED THIS PICTURE DOES ANYONE KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT? ITS TAGGED ON HIS EAR SO IT CANT BE PUBLIC?
D
deserteagle500
Guest
looks like they milked it before they shot it.... one of those lady bulls...
beat this
beat this
FishlakeElkHunter
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,177
It may be a Ranch bull................but still one hell of a bull!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I still like seing the crazy stuff they are killing!
I still like seing the crazy stuff they are killing!
H
Hornseeker
Guest
Im with FLEH... I dont like high fence outfits, but DANG they grow some big bones!
C
Chef
Guest
Dayum!! Look at that browtine!
C
COarcher
Guest
338magblaster
Member
- Messages
- 65
I am not sayig this is a ranched bull because I know for a fact that there are ear tags that have been put in by the DWR...
HOWEVER, if this is a ranched bull, admiring it is like admiring models in SI's swimsuit issue... pretty but what's the point?
My .02.
Have a great day, unless you've made other plans.
HOWEVER, if this is a ranched bull, admiring it is like admiring models in SI's swimsuit issue... pretty but what's the point?
My .02.
Have a great day, unless you've made other plans.
swbuckmaster
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 5,004
You guys kill me about ranch hunts. What the heck do you think a premium Le rifle tag is. It is just as easy just drive around and shoot out your truck window with your high power rifle.
I would be to have either!
I would be to have either!
G
Giantcat
Guest
>You guys kill me about ranch
>hunts. What the heck do
>you think a premium Le
>rifle tag is. It is
>just as easy just drive
>around and shoot out your
>truck window with your high
>power rifle.
>I would be to have either!
>
I don't know how you can compare a LE rifle tag to a high fence ranch. There are no fences around LE units!! Bulls can move units in a matter of a few days.
.270 Win....COOL MEDICINE FOR BARBEQUE DREAMS.
>hunts. What the heck do
>you think a premium Le
>rifle tag is. It is
>just as easy just drive
>around and shoot out your
>truck window with your high
>power rifle.
>I would be to have either!
>
I don't know how you can compare a LE rifle tag to a high fence ranch. There are no fences around LE units!! Bulls can move units in a matter of a few days.
.270 Win....COOL MEDICINE FOR BARBEQUE DREAMS.
P
proutdoors
Guest
I think his point is the LE rifle guys in Utah experience 90% success rates, making it darn close to being 'canned'.
PRO
PRO
B
bobcatbess
Guest
O.K. Pro!!!
FORGET ABOUT PUTTING IN FOR LE HUNTS!!!
JUST GO TO A RANCH & ON YOUR WAY STOP BY & GET sw!!!
"SHOOT EM OUT THE TRUCK WINDOW"!!!
YOU'VE BEEN WATCHING TOO MANY MOVIES!!!
JUDAS PRIEST!!!
THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
FORGET ABOUT PUTTING IN FOR LE HUNTS!!!
JUST GO TO A RANCH & ON YOUR WAY STOP BY & GET sw!!!
"SHOOT EM OUT THE TRUCK WINDOW"!!!
YOU'VE BEEN WATCHING TOO MANY MOVIES!!!
JUDAS PRIEST!!!
THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
P
proutdoors
Guest
Bessy, do you even bother to read posts? Do I need to tyoe slower or what? I said what I thought HE was implying, pay attention!
And for the record, if/when I draw, it will be an archery tag, not a gimmie rifle tag, where any yahoo can kill a good bull. How hard is it to kill a bull on a LE rifle hunt in Utah? 90 freakin percent, how is that hunting? The 10% who don't kill either passed alot of bulls up, never got off the road, OR are true self-smart Utards, otherwise it would be 100% success rates.
I don't watch the movies big guy, I freakin make em! Yeah baby!
PRO
And for the record, if/when I draw, it will be an archery tag, not a gimmie rifle tag, where any yahoo can kill a good bull. How hard is it to kill a bull on a LE rifle hunt in Utah? 90 freakin percent, how is that hunting? The 10% who don't kill either passed alot of bulls up, never got off the road, OR are true self-smart Utards, otherwise it would be 100% success rates.
I don't watch the movies big guy, I freakin make em! Yeah baby!
PRO
swbuckmaster
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 5,004
Have you guys heard how easy it is for pro to get his hunters 400" elk? I have heard rumors they drive around in there truck playing elk bugles and cow calls on their 12? sub woofers. It is called elk trolling.
I would love to be in the back of his truck with a tag though!!!
I would also like to shoot the elk that started this post, although it looks like a photo shop job!
Kidding aside Pro is correct in what I am talking about. Shooting elk in the rut with rifles is like a turkey shoot and bad management practice IMO. Two high of success rate and not enough tags being given out.
0 points for me and 35 years old I have to settle for a cwmu or ranch bull for Utah! What a shame!
I would love to be in the back of his truck with a tag though!!!
I would also like to shoot the elk that started this post, although it looks like a photo shop job!
Kidding aside Pro is correct in what I am talking about. Shooting elk in the rut with rifles is like a turkey shoot and bad management practice IMO. Two high of success rate and not enough tags being given out.
0 points for me and 35 years old I have to settle for a cwmu or ranch bull for Utah! What a shame!
K
ktc
Guest
PRO,
After a brutal ass kicking, I take exception to those remarks! Any yahoo? Come on now. Maybe killing a bull is not too hard, but making good on one of the better bulls is no gimme.
Archery? Hell, have at it like it will prove something. I guess I am a border-line Utard since after 3 days we never had a bull within rifle range. I have nothing against bow hunters, but attitudes like yours gets me. Do it with a recurve and cedar arrows if you want to prove something. I guess you are not one of these guys who admit they can kill bulls with a "bow" at 100 yards?
What movies do you make PRO? Certainly you would never guide a rifle hunter on any Utah canned type elk hunts would you? That would be hypocrissy. Does not say much for your guiding abilities or your so called hunters if they need to even hire you. Any honest guide would tell his rifle hunting clients to save their money and go shoot a bull out of the window of their truck.
Your comment has to be the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Not to mention a slam to most of us on this board and those clients for Mossback who butter your bread. You constantly rip on anyone who says anything about Moss or the guides, then you turnaround and put the rip on everyone else. So what about the sportsman, governor's tag, and conservation tag buyers who hire your services? These guys must even be a bigger joke than us public slugs that all have to hunt during the same dates? Make sure you let Skoronske et al that they are nothing but yahoos. Better yet, announce your feelings during your next movie. That should get you a promotion.
Come on PRO, you can do better than this....
After a brutal ass kicking, I take exception to those remarks! Any yahoo? Come on now. Maybe killing a bull is not too hard, but making good on one of the better bulls is no gimme.
Archery? Hell, have at it like it will prove something. I guess I am a border-line Utard since after 3 days we never had a bull within rifle range. I have nothing against bow hunters, but attitudes like yours gets me. Do it with a recurve and cedar arrows if you want to prove something. I guess you are not one of these guys who admit they can kill bulls with a "bow" at 100 yards?
What movies do you make PRO? Certainly you would never guide a rifle hunter on any Utah canned type elk hunts would you? That would be hypocrissy. Does not say much for your guiding abilities or your so called hunters if they need to even hire you. Any honest guide would tell his rifle hunting clients to save their money and go shoot a bull out of the window of their truck.
Your comment has to be the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Not to mention a slam to most of us on this board and those clients for Mossback who butter your bread. You constantly rip on anyone who says anything about Moss or the guides, then you turnaround and put the rip on everyone else. So what about the sportsman, governor's tag, and conservation tag buyers who hire your services? These guys must even be a bigger joke than us public slugs that all have to hunt during the same dates? Make sure you let Skoronske et al that they are nothing but yahoos. Better yet, announce your feelings during your next movie. That should get you a promotion.
Come on PRO, you can do better than this....
P
proutdoors
Guest
>PRO,
>
>After a brutal ass kicking, I
>take exception to those remarks!
>Any yahoo? Come on now.
>Maybe killing a bull is
>not too hard, but making
>good on one of the
>better bulls is no gimme.
>
>
>Archery? Hell, have at it like
>it will prove something. I
>guess I am a border-line
>Utard since after 3 days
>we never had a bull
>within rifle range. I have
>nothing against bow hunters, but
>attitudes like yours gets me.
>Do it with a recurve
>and cedar arrows if you
>want to prove something. I
>guess you are not one
>of these guys who admit
>they can kill bulls with
>a "bow" at 100 yards?
>
>
>What movies do you make PRO?
>Certainly you would never guide
>a rifle hunter on any
>Utah canned type elk hunts
>would you? That would be
>hypocrissy. Does not say much
>for your guiding abilities or
>your so called hunters if
>they need to even hire
>you. Any honest guide would
>tell his rifle hunting clients
>to save their money and
>go shoot a bull out
>of the window of their
>truck.
>
>Your comment has to be the
>dumbest thing I have ever
>heard. Not to mention a
>slam to most of us
>on this board and those
>clients for Mossback who butter
>your bread. You constantly rip
>on anyone who says anything
>about Moss or the guides,
>then you turnaround and put
>the rip on everyone else.
>So what about the sportsman,
>governor's tag, and conservation tag
>buyers who hire your services?
>These guys must even be
>a bigger joke than us
>public slugs that all have
>to hunt during the same
>dates? Make sure you let
>Skoronske et al that they
>are nothing but yahoos. Better
>yet, announce your feelings during
>your next movie. That should
>get you a promotion.
>
>Come on PRO, you can do
>better than this....
You are right, I CAN do better than this. You must have bessy syndrome. You missed where I said kill a bull, nowhere did I mention the killing of a 400+ bull, NOWHERE. That still takes hard work and skill. If you or your wife would have been willing to shoot any old bull, you could have been back home by Saturday evening.
ktc said: "You constantly rip on anyone who says anything about Moss or the guides, then you turnaround and put the rip on everyone else."
Tell me where/how what I said is untrue. 90% is NOT a hunt, that is a 'slam dunk'. How can one using even a fraction of their brain disagree with that? Now, to kill a 'special' bull, skill and hard work are required, that I agree with. But, to say ANY hunt that has 90% success rates does as well, is either denying the FACTS or missing the point altogether. Now, add in the FACT that the average days spent in the field 'hunting' for rifle hunters is LESS than 5, yet they still enjoy a 90% success rate.
How do you know what kind of bow I hunt with? And, show me where archers kill year in and year out at 90% success rates on public land. I'll wait. I would NEVER even consider a 100 yard shot, even on a world racord bull.
Now, before you get all sensitive and emotional, did I not give BOTH you and your wife props on your trophys? I meant it then and I still believe you did good. You are reading WAY too much into what I said. One more time NINETY FREAKIN PERCENT SUCCESS RATES, how is that a 'hunt'? Move the damn rifle hunt out of September and make it a hunt.
PRO
>
>After a brutal ass kicking, I
>take exception to those remarks!
>Any yahoo? Come on now.
>Maybe killing a bull is
>not too hard, but making
>good on one of the
>better bulls is no gimme.
>
>
>Archery? Hell, have at it like
>it will prove something. I
>guess I am a border-line
>Utard since after 3 days
>we never had a bull
>within rifle range. I have
>nothing against bow hunters, but
>attitudes like yours gets me.
>Do it with a recurve
>and cedar arrows if you
>want to prove something. I
>guess you are not one
>of these guys who admit
>they can kill bulls with
>a "bow" at 100 yards?
>
>
>What movies do you make PRO?
>Certainly you would never guide
>a rifle hunter on any
>Utah canned type elk hunts
>would you? That would be
>hypocrissy. Does not say much
>for your guiding abilities or
>your so called hunters if
>they need to even hire
>you. Any honest guide would
>tell his rifle hunting clients
>to save their money and
>go shoot a bull out
>of the window of their
>truck.
>
>Your comment has to be the
>dumbest thing I have ever
>heard. Not to mention a
>slam to most of us
>on this board and those
>clients for Mossback who butter
>your bread. You constantly rip
>on anyone who says anything
>about Moss or the guides,
>then you turnaround and put
>the rip on everyone else.
>So what about the sportsman,
>governor's tag, and conservation tag
>buyers who hire your services?
>These guys must even be
>a bigger joke than us
>public slugs that all have
>to hunt during the same
>dates? Make sure you let
>Skoronske et al that they
>are nothing but yahoos. Better
>yet, announce your feelings during
>your next movie. That should
>get you a promotion.
>
>Come on PRO, you can do
>better than this....
You are right, I CAN do better than this. You must have bessy syndrome. You missed where I said kill a bull, nowhere did I mention the killing of a 400+ bull, NOWHERE. That still takes hard work and skill. If you or your wife would have been willing to shoot any old bull, you could have been back home by Saturday evening.
ktc said: "You constantly rip on anyone who says anything about Moss or the guides, then you turnaround and put the rip on everyone else."
Tell me where/how what I said is untrue. 90% is NOT a hunt, that is a 'slam dunk'. How can one using even a fraction of their brain disagree with that? Now, to kill a 'special' bull, skill and hard work are required, that I agree with. But, to say ANY hunt that has 90% success rates does as well, is either denying the FACTS or missing the point altogether. Now, add in the FACT that the average days spent in the field 'hunting' for rifle hunters is LESS than 5, yet they still enjoy a 90% success rate.
How do you know what kind of bow I hunt with? And, show me where archers kill year in and year out at 90% success rates on public land. I'll wait. I would NEVER even consider a 100 yard shot, even on a world racord bull.
Now, before you get all sensitive and emotional, did I not give BOTH you and your wife props on your trophys? I meant it then and I still believe you did good. You are reading WAY too much into what I said. One more time NINETY FREAKIN PERCENT SUCCESS RATES, how is that a 'hunt'? Move the damn rifle hunt out of September and make it a hunt.
PRO
G
Giantcat
Guest
I can agree with one of PRO's points only, move the LE rifle hunts out of the rut and put the archery hunters in the rut. It seems stupid that when these bulls are the dumbest, we can go after them with these high powered rifles. What will it take to convince DWR and the Wildlife Board to make the change?
.270 Win....COOL MEDICINE FOR BARBEQUE DREAMS.
.270 Win....COOL MEDICINE FOR BARBEQUE DREAMS.
P
proutdoors
Guest
Let me clarify one other thing that ktc said: " So what about the sportsman, governor's tag, and conservation tag buyers who hire your services? These guys must even be a bigger joke than us public slugs that all have to hunt during the same dates? Make sure you let Skoronske et al that they are nothing but yahoos. Better yet, announce your feelings during your next movie. That should get you a promotion."
The people who hire me, do not hire me to just kill an elk on a LE unit. They are more than capable of that on their own. They hire me to find that 'special' bull or that 400" bull. Ron Skoronski can kill a bull on his own on the Pahvant w/o Mossback. He hires Mossback to help find the specific type of bull he wants to put in his trophy room. To imply I for one second feel the people I guide are "jokes" is BS and flat out false. Using YOUR term, any "slug" can kill a bull on a LE unit with a rifle, but to kill a 'special' bull, like the ones you and your wife took, takes work and skill. You are missing my whole point here. The point is, ANY hunt that has NINETY PERCENT SUCCESS RATES, isn't much of a 'hunt', to say otherwise is to deny FACT. You also compared what I am doing/saying to those who rip on outfitters, there is ONE MAJOR difference, I can backup what I say with EVIDENCE and FACTS, those who tell 'stories' about road closures have provided NEITHER!
PRO
The people who hire me, do not hire me to just kill an elk on a LE unit. They are more than capable of that on their own. They hire me to find that 'special' bull or that 400" bull. Ron Skoronski can kill a bull on his own on the Pahvant w/o Mossback. He hires Mossback to help find the specific type of bull he wants to put in his trophy room. To imply I for one second feel the people I guide are "jokes" is BS and flat out false. Using YOUR term, any "slug" can kill a bull on a LE unit with a rifle, but to kill a 'special' bull, like the ones you and your wife took, takes work and skill. You are missing my whole point here. The point is, ANY hunt that has NINETY PERCENT SUCCESS RATES, isn't much of a 'hunt', to say otherwise is to deny FACT. You also compared what I am doing/saying to those who rip on outfitters, there is ONE MAJOR difference, I can backup what I say with EVIDENCE and FACTS, those who tell 'stories' about road closures have provided NEITHER!
PRO
K
ktc
Guest
PRO,
I am not going round and round on this issue. I took offense to a couple of things you said. You did give us props and I appreciate those from you and anyone else giving them.
I do not set the dates for rifle hunts, I just apply and go when drawn. Also, I think it is important to remember that the rifle hunt is an any weapon hunt. So to get the best dates with bow or rifle you need to tackle the worst odds in the any weapon hunts.
Another thing we cannot forget, to have these 400+ slugs on the mountain their must be a pyramid so to speak of sizes and ages of bulls. To have a small percentage of 400 bulls surely the mountain will be filled with 300-320 type bulls. I agree to kill a bull of this caliber your odds go way up. So in the end, to have a true trophy hunt of 380+ possibilities you have the 300" slam dunk factor.
This is not about Mossback, but since you work for them and spend every year on the mountain, I would think that you would riegn in your comments a bit since these guys fall within the realm of your Utah canned type hunts. They spend big money to hunt fair chase monsters. There must be a reason they do not buy a grain fed Moo Elk on a ranch for less money and bigger antlers?
The problem here in Utah is that guys who draw an LE tag think drawing out gives them free access to a canned 400 bull. You see it on MM every year. "I drew out! 380 or nothing for me!" Most of these guys are pissed off after the hunt. Some get them but most do not.
Lots of people here killed 320-350 bulls with all weapons including a rifle. Broad statements like canned, yahoo, and so forth is offensive to many especially toward an animal that the hunter can and should be proud of.
I am not going round and round on this issue. I took offense to a couple of things you said. You did give us props and I appreciate those from you and anyone else giving them.
I do not set the dates for rifle hunts, I just apply and go when drawn. Also, I think it is important to remember that the rifle hunt is an any weapon hunt. So to get the best dates with bow or rifle you need to tackle the worst odds in the any weapon hunts.
Another thing we cannot forget, to have these 400+ slugs on the mountain their must be a pyramid so to speak of sizes and ages of bulls. To have a small percentage of 400 bulls surely the mountain will be filled with 300-320 type bulls. I agree to kill a bull of this caliber your odds go way up. So in the end, to have a true trophy hunt of 380+ possibilities you have the 300" slam dunk factor.
This is not about Mossback, but since you work for them and spend every year on the mountain, I would think that you would riegn in your comments a bit since these guys fall within the realm of your Utah canned type hunts. They spend big money to hunt fair chase monsters. There must be a reason they do not buy a grain fed Moo Elk on a ranch for less money and bigger antlers?
The problem here in Utah is that guys who draw an LE tag think drawing out gives them free access to a canned 400 bull. You see it on MM every year. "I drew out! 380 or nothing for me!" Most of these guys are pissed off after the hunt. Some get them but most do not.
Lots of people here killed 320-350 bulls with all weapons including a rifle. Broad statements like canned, yahoo, and so forth is offensive to many especially toward an animal that the hunter can and should be proud of.
P
proutdoors
Guest
Good post ktc, you said, "Lots of people here killed 320-350 bulls with all weapons including a rifle. Broad statements like canned, yahoo, and so forth is offensive to many especially toward an animal that the hunter can and should be proud of."
If you or anyone else took what I said as an attack on your hunting abilities, I apologize. And, I NEVER said "canned, yahoo(your term), and so forth. That was another poster. My entire point here is, as long as the rifle hunt is in September(I realize it is not your 'fault'), success rates will remain extremely high. What other state has rifle hunts approaching 90% success rates year in and year out for the whole state, excluding open bull areas where they DO NOT hunt in September with rifles? All I am saying is, make it a hunt. I am all for having 8-10 premium LE unitus with rut hunts, but the other 18-20 LE units should have the rifle hunts OUT of the rut, period. If the success rate was lowered by just 15% to 75%, the DWR could INCREASE the number of overall tags by a fair amount w/o killing any more bulls than now. So, we would have opportunity AND quality at the same time, a win/win deal. Why is this so absurd of a thought?
"This is not about Mossback, but since you work for them and spend every year on the mountain, I would think that you would riegn in your comments a bit since these guys fall within the realm of your Utah canned type hunts. They spend big money to hunt fair chase monsters. There must be a reason they do not buy a grain fed Moo Elk on a ranch for less money and bigger antlers?"
You answered your own question. It is 'Fair chase', and one must work to kill a 400 class bull on public land, even with Mossback. You read WAY too much into what was said, mostly as a jab/joke. Lighten up and look at the big picture. 90% success on a 4-5 day(average days in the field) hunt tells me it isn't all that hard to find/kill a bull on a LE unit with a rifle in September.
PRO
If you or anyone else took what I said as an attack on your hunting abilities, I apologize. And, I NEVER said "canned, yahoo(your term), and so forth. That was another poster. My entire point here is, as long as the rifle hunt is in September(I realize it is not your 'fault'), success rates will remain extremely high. What other state has rifle hunts approaching 90% success rates year in and year out for the whole state, excluding open bull areas where they DO NOT hunt in September with rifles? All I am saying is, make it a hunt. I am all for having 8-10 premium LE unitus with rut hunts, but the other 18-20 LE units should have the rifle hunts OUT of the rut, period. If the success rate was lowered by just 15% to 75%, the DWR could INCREASE the number of overall tags by a fair amount w/o killing any more bulls than now. So, we would have opportunity AND quality at the same time, a win/win deal. Why is this so absurd of a thought?
"This is not about Mossback, but since you work for them and spend every year on the mountain, I would think that you would riegn in your comments a bit since these guys fall within the realm of your Utah canned type hunts. They spend big money to hunt fair chase monsters. There must be a reason they do not buy a grain fed Moo Elk on a ranch for less money and bigger antlers?"
You answered your own question. It is 'Fair chase', and one must work to kill a 400 class bull on public land, even with Mossback. You read WAY too much into what was said, mostly as a jab/joke. Lighten up and look at the big picture. 90% success on a 4-5 day(average days in the field) hunt tells me it isn't all that hard to find/kill a bull on a LE unit with a rifle in September.
PRO
K
ktc
Guest
PRO,
Post #16 you state "yahoo." That is a FACT. ;-)
Post #16 you state "yahoo." That is a FACT. ;-)
P
proutdoors
Guest
>I think prout broke his arm
>patting himself on the back.
> He may be looking
>for someone to type for
>him now. We'll all
>be anxiously awaiting his next
>response I'm
>sure........pllllleeeeeease.
WTF are you talking about? I am talking about making the rifle hunt a hunt, how is that patting myself on the back?
PRO
>patting himself on the back.
> He may be looking
>for someone to type for
>him now. We'll all
>be anxiously awaiting his next
>response I'm
>sure........pllllleeeeeease.
WTF are you talking about? I am talking about making the rifle hunt a hunt, how is that patting myself on the back?
PRO
P
proutdoors
Guest
>PRO,
>
>Post #16 you state "yahoo." That
>is a FACT. ;-)
I was referring to what swbuckmaster said. that is a FACT jack!
PRO
>
>Post #16 you state "yahoo." That
>is a FACT. ;-)
I was referring to what swbuckmaster said. that is a FACT jack!
PRO
D
deserteagle500
Guest
anybody else get bored listening to pro say something dumb? then he has to defend is comments and he gets whooped every time. i wish you wouldn't comment about things where you know you are wrong. you are an old woman over a hot stove... JUST STIRRING THE POT!!!
beat this
beat this
P
proutdoors
Guest
>anybody else get bored listening to
>pro say something dumb? then
>he has to defend is
>comments and he gets whooped
>every time. i wish you
>wouldn't comment about things where
>you know you are wrong.
>you are an old woman
>over a hot stove... JUST
>STIRRING THE POT!!!
>
>
>
>
>beat this
So, are you saying that Utah rifle LE hunters don't kill at 90 success rates and spend an average of less than 5 days in the field? Who is wrong, and who is acting like "an old woman"?
PRO
>pro say something dumb? then
>he has to defend is
>comments and he gets whooped
>every time. i wish you
>wouldn't comment about things where
>you know you are wrong.
>you are an old woman
>over a hot stove... JUST
>STIRRING THE POT!!!
>
>
>
>
>beat this
So, are you saying that Utah rifle LE hunters don't kill at 90 success rates and spend an average of less than 5 days in the field? Who is wrong, and who is acting like "an old woman"?
PRO
P
proutdoors
Guest
"I don't watch the movies big guy, I freakin make em! Yeah baby!". was an obvious joke. Give me a break! You have got to be kidding me. Are you really that anal?
90% success rateson public land isn't much of a hunt! Killing a 380 class bull on public land IS, and guess what, the success rates for killing a 380+ bull on ANY LE unit is a HELL of alot lower than 90%! Is that better for you?
PRO
90% success rateson public land isn't much of a hunt! Killing a 380 class bull on public land IS, and guess what, the success rates for killing a 380+ bull on ANY LE unit is a HELL of alot lower than 90%! Is that better for you?
PRO
D
deserteagle500
Guest
PRO, so what your saying is that you are unhappy with the LE hunts. you think that utah has done too good of a job and you are against them? you are unhappy with the big bulls running around? my goodness i thought this was the goal. making it possible for regular hunters to shoot a trophy. there is a huge difference between petting an elk, pushing into a pasture, scaring the cows away, and popping it with your rifle, versus putting in for years and years, months and months of scouting and searching hundreds of miles to find that big monster bull that you have WORKED so hard for. some people are lucky enough to shoot a monster animal right off the road but that shouldn't make it any less of a hunt. they all take work. now tuck your tail and be a good dog.
beat this
beat this
P
proutdoors
Guest
>"90% success rates on public land isn't
>much of a hunt! Killing
>a 380 class bull on
>public land IS, and guess
>what, the success rates for
>killing a 380+ bull on
>ANY LE unit is a
>HELL of alot lower than
>90%! Is that better for
>you?"
>
>
>
>Yep, that's better.
That is what I have been saying all along.
deserteagle, I said no such thing. Utah has done a great job in growing the biggest baddest bulls on the planet, I neither dislike that nor want to change that. I am saying that if the success rates were lowered, MORE tags could be issued w/o hurting the quality. Those who bust their humps and put a 380+ bull on the ground will still be able to do so, it jst means the 'average' hunter will have to work harder to kill an elk on a LE unit. Why is that so hard to comprehend? Make it a freakin hunt. To kill a big bull(370+) takes work, even with a rifle on a LE hunt in Utah, but to merely be 'successful' you just need to fart out the back window for a response on most LE units to locate a bull, walk over the small ridge, lift up the rifle, squeeze the trigger, and start whopping and hollering. That ain't hunting, that is killing! Passing up several 'lesser' bulls in order to get a chance at a 'special' bull with the increased risk of being 'unsuccessful' is hunting, but how many do just that on these units? I see 'dink' bulls killed every year, while I am in no way comdemning those who kill 'dink' bulls on LE units, my point is; killing a 'dink' bull on ANY LE unit with a rifle is not that hard to do, otherwise the success rate swould be closer to what they are in other states. Unless you are going to tell me Utah hunters are just that much better of 'trophy' elk hunters.
PRO
>much of a hunt! Killing
>a 380 class bull on
>public land IS, and guess
>what, the success rates for
>killing a 380+ bull on
>ANY LE unit is a
>HELL of alot lower than
>90%! Is that better for
>you?"
>
>
>
>Yep, that's better.
That is what I have been saying all along.
deserteagle, I said no such thing. Utah has done a great job in growing the biggest baddest bulls on the planet, I neither dislike that nor want to change that. I am saying that if the success rates were lowered, MORE tags could be issued w/o hurting the quality. Those who bust their humps and put a 380+ bull on the ground will still be able to do so, it jst means the 'average' hunter will have to work harder to kill an elk on a LE unit. Why is that so hard to comprehend? Make it a freakin hunt. To kill a big bull(370+) takes work, even with a rifle on a LE hunt in Utah, but to merely be 'successful' you just need to fart out the back window for a response on most LE units to locate a bull, walk over the small ridge, lift up the rifle, squeeze the trigger, and start whopping and hollering. That ain't hunting, that is killing! Passing up several 'lesser' bulls in order to get a chance at a 'special' bull with the increased risk of being 'unsuccessful' is hunting, but how many do just that on these units? I see 'dink' bulls killed every year, while I am in no way comdemning those who kill 'dink' bulls on LE units, my point is; killing a 'dink' bull on ANY LE unit with a rifle is not that hard to do, otherwise the success rate swould be closer to what they are in other states. Unless you are going to tell me Utah hunters are just that much better of 'trophy' elk hunters.
PRO
C
COarcher
Guest
I'm with PRO on this one. Take the rifle hunt out of the rut and make it a real hunt. Hunt those bugling elk with a bow or a primitive muzzleloader and now we can be talk hunting.
Wilderness Athlete Field Staff
http://www.wildernessathlete.org/
Wilderness Athlete Field Staff
http://www.wildernessathlete.org/
D
deserteagle500
Guest
but why change anything if whats going on is working? why change a great thing? i am just glad that 90% of hunters get to be successful. nothing wrong with that.
beat this
beat this
P
proutdoors
Guest
>sPROUT,
>
>The post started with a picture
>of an obvious 400+" fenced
>bull and now you are
>saying bulls over 370 are
>harder to kill in the
>LE units.
>
>
>DUH!!!
This is in response to your, and others, silly comments about how it is so hard to kill a 'dink' bull on a LE unit with a rifle, and acting all offended by light-hearted humor. DEE DEE DEE!!!
"but why change anything if whats going on is working? why change a great thing? i am just glad that 90% of hunters get to be successful. nothing wrong with that."
My two main reasons are: 1) Is 90% success rate really 'hunting'? 2) There are 50,000+ applicants for less than 3,000 tags, there IS something wrong with that. Do you have kids? If you do, you better make some serious jack if you want them to EVER get a tag on a LE unit, because the odds are getting worse every year and a 10 year old kid has less than a 30% chance of drawing a tag ONCE in his entire life. I see ALOT wrong with that. Lowering the success rates down to where it is a hunt will allow more people the experience of HUNTING on a LE unit, where not all will be 'successful', but they will have a chance to be. The saying I hear all the time is, "The hardest part is drawing a tag", to me the hardest part should be the hunt, not the application process!
PRO
>
>The post started with a picture
>of an obvious 400+" fenced
>bull and now you are
>saying bulls over 370 are
>harder to kill in the
>LE units.
>
>
>DUH!!!
This is in response to your, and others, silly comments about how it is so hard to kill a 'dink' bull on a LE unit with a rifle, and acting all offended by light-hearted humor. DEE DEE DEE!!!
"but why change anything if whats going on is working? why change a great thing? i am just glad that 90% of hunters get to be successful. nothing wrong with that."
My two main reasons are: 1) Is 90% success rate really 'hunting'? 2) There are 50,000+ applicants for less than 3,000 tags, there IS something wrong with that. Do you have kids? If you do, you better make some serious jack if you want them to EVER get a tag on a LE unit, because the odds are getting worse every year and a 10 year old kid has less than a 30% chance of drawing a tag ONCE in his entire life. I see ALOT wrong with that. Lowering the success rates down to where it is a hunt will allow more people the experience of HUNTING on a LE unit, where not all will be 'successful', but they will have a chance to be. The saying I hear all the time is, "The hardest part is drawing a tag", to me the hardest part should be the hunt, not the application process!
PRO
swbuckmaster
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 5,004
Deerlove you said decent. This is my second year hunting elk I will get a decent elk this year with my bow 250"-300". As far as LE quality 370? or better I won't get them on an over the counter tag right now in the units I hunt in Utah. With the points I have I also won't draw a LE tag in Utah. Have you looked at the statistics? I will have opportunity out side of Utah at a decent bull. I apply all over. In fact I should have enough points to draw a tag in Arizona next year where a friend of mine killed a 400" bull with his bow this year.
swbuckmaster
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 5,004
One more time NINETY FREAKIN PERCENT SUCCESS RATES, how is that a 'hunt'? Move the damn rifle hunt out of September and make it a hunt.
Best quote yet!
To those of you who are attacking pro and what he does for a living you should be ashamed of your selves. Pro is one of the good guys. He puts in his time away from mossback trying to make our "general hunter" odds better. He is constantly coming up with ideas that would give us a better chance at the draw.
He is one of mossbacks guides and is probably his best guide. I have met most of them and Pro is top notch. If I drew an archery tag on the Dutton I would find away to have pro guide me. I don't have a lot of friends who can get away for the whole summer and help me locate a big once in a life time bull. I don't have a lot of friends that can take off the whole hunt and call for me either.
For those of you that are attacking pros clients you are showing class envy. That rich sob gets to hunt every year why don't he just buy a fenced hunt and stay away from my area.
Pro is right hunting in the rut with a rifle is pretty much a slam dunk he proves it every year with several 380-400" bulls.
Why don't we hunt mule deer in the rut with a rifle? We have proven that we kill way two many stupid deer with that approach. It is time we do something about it for elk.
My deer hunting and elk hunting experiences consists of only hunting the extended archery unites. When I went out this year on an elk hunt with a friend in the Bookcliffs I couldn't help think this is a slam dunk hunt for deer. I drove around on a 4-wheeler and saw 20 bucks a day at 20 to 40 yards that would have stood long enough to have an arrow put through them. I am used to smart deer. Deer that have a sort of wildness about them. The deer in the books seemed like I could have petted them if I had a bucket of grain. As for the elk I saw 20 or so bulls a day nothing real big and nothing close but if I had a rifle tag it would have been like shooting fish in a barrel. Which one should I shoot, that one, no it is broken. That one, no it only is a 6x5, How about that one, No it only scores 370.
So for those that killed a big bull in your LE unit with a rifle pat you're self on your back you did good. You also showed yourself you have what it takes to hold off on the trigger long enough to kill your once in a life time bull.
Best quote yet!
To those of you who are attacking pro and what he does for a living you should be ashamed of your selves. Pro is one of the good guys. He puts in his time away from mossback trying to make our "general hunter" odds better. He is constantly coming up with ideas that would give us a better chance at the draw.
He is one of mossbacks guides and is probably his best guide. I have met most of them and Pro is top notch. If I drew an archery tag on the Dutton I would find away to have pro guide me. I don't have a lot of friends who can get away for the whole summer and help me locate a big once in a life time bull. I don't have a lot of friends that can take off the whole hunt and call for me either.
For those of you that are attacking pros clients you are showing class envy. That rich sob gets to hunt every year why don't he just buy a fenced hunt and stay away from my area.
Pro is right hunting in the rut with a rifle is pretty much a slam dunk he proves it every year with several 380-400" bulls.
Why don't we hunt mule deer in the rut with a rifle? We have proven that we kill way two many stupid deer with that approach. It is time we do something about it for elk.
My deer hunting and elk hunting experiences consists of only hunting the extended archery unites. When I went out this year on an elk hunt with a friend in the Bookcliffs I couldn't help think this is a slam dunk hunt for deer. I drove around on a 4-wheeler and saw 20 bucks a day at 20 to 40 yards that would have stood long enough to have an arrow put through them. I am used to smart deer. Deer that have a sort of wildness about them. The deer in the books seemed like I could have petted them if I had a bucket of grain. As for the elk I saw 20 or so bulls a day nothing real big and nothing close but if I had a rifle tag it would have been like shooting fish in a barrel. Which one should I shoot, that one, no it is broken. That one, no it only is a 6x5, How about that one, No it only scores 370.
So for those that killed a big bull in your LE unit with a rifle pat you're self on your back you did good. You also showed yourself you have what it takes to hold off on the trigger long enough to kill your once in a life time bull.
D
deserteagle500
Guest
thats why utah has added the buck bull combo, the management bull tag and an open quota on archery. EVERYBODY LISTEN!!!! TO HUNT, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO HUNT FOR TWO WEEKS STRAIGHT AND HIKE 10 MILES INTO THE BACK COUNTRY!!! YOU DO NOT HAVE TO SHOOT A 400 BULL. if we issue more tags then all of the years of management will be for not! it is perfect the way it is. 90% is just great. super! its awesome!
beat this
beat this
slamdunk
Moderator
- Messages
- 10,389
Very nice reply swbuck!
I'm way late in this post and kind of lost, but having read a few replies, i think i'm catching on here.
I don't know enough about how this all got turnred into a brawl, but i do know pro and his intensions are always good even if they are interpreted wrong by some readers.
My a$$ still hurts from the colorado bulls post, so i'm not going to get into this one very deep, i just wanted to make a comment on your last post.....it spells everything out quite nicely.
Ok, i'm crawling back into my "dog house" now to study my spelling and to let my wounds heal. ;-)
Skull Krazy
"No Bones About It"
I'm way late in this post and kind of lost, but having read a few replies, i think i'm catching on here.
I don't know enough about how this all got turnred into a brawl, but i do know pro and his intensions are always good even if they are interpreted wrong by some readers.
My a$$ still hurts from the colorado bulls post, so i'm not going to get into this one very deep, i just wanted to make a comment on your last post.....it spells everything out quite nicely.
Ok, i'm crawling back into my "dog house" now to study my spelling and to let my wounds heal. ;-)
Skull Krazy
"No Bones About It"
P
proutdoors
Guest
Try and follow along de500. If you LOWER the success rates while INCREASING tag numbers, you kill the SAME number of elk. How would that undo "all of the years of management"? You would kill the EXACT number of bulls as now.
The buck/bull combo is on any-bull areas, where the quality is no better than a OTC Colorado tag, not quite apples to apples is it?
The management tags total what, 70 some tags? BFD. Compared to 50,000 unsuccessful applicants 70 'extra' tags is irrelevant. The open quota for archers is spike and any-bull areas ONLY, again has NOTHING to do with LE units. NOTHING!
Who is talking about making it so everybody gets to 'kill' a 400 bull? Sure isn't me. If there are ways to increase opportunity w/o knocking down the quality, why would you oppose giving MORE hunters a CHANCE at hunting a 400 class bull? Even though a very small percentage of hunters will ever kill a 400 class bull, regardless of how many tags are issued and when they are issued.
PRO
The buck/bull combo is on any-bull areas, where the quality is no better than a OTC Colorado tag, not quite apples to apples is it?
The management tags total what, 70 some tags? BFD. Compared to 50,000 unsuccessful applicants 70 'extra' tags is irrelevant. The open quota for archers is spike and any-bull areas ONLY, again has NOTHING to do with LE units. NOTHING!
Who is talking about making it so everybody gets to 'kill' a 400 bull? Sure isn't me. If there are ways to increase opportunity w/o knocking down the quality, why would you oppose giving MORE hunters a CHANCE at hunting a 400 class bull? Even though a very small percentage of hunters will ever kill a 400 class bull, regardless of how many tags are issued and when they are issued.
PRO
swbuckmaster
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 5,004
deserteagle500 things could be different in Utah and have the same chance at a huge bull several times in your life not just once. Just look at Arizona they kill just as many bulls over 400? as Utah, but give out hundreds of tags per unit instead of 10 or 20.
Only a Utard has the mentality of road hunting, 3 day elk hunt, 4-wheeler trails on every ridge, and happy with a once in a life time elk tag!
Only a Utard has the mentality of road hunting, 3 day elk hunt, 4-wheeler trails on every ridge, and happy with a once in a life time elk tag!
D
deserteagle500
Guest
i guaran-dang-te that the day they put more tags in the LE units the elk will get slaughtered and it'll turn into just the same thing. i will put 100 dollars on the line saying that the very first year they impose your idea, the herd will deminish. there is a reason taht there are so many there, because only a few are taken every year. more tags=less elk.
beat this
beat this
R
rutnelk
Guest
What is the success rates on Mossback guided hunts? I am assuming pretty close to 90% or better, wouldn't you prout? I guess we will need to move all guided hunts to the first week of November and make them spear only. According to you, 90% is not a hunt (oh that sucks to get burned by your own logic). This way you could guide 10 times the # of hunters that you are now because the state could increase the # of tags.
Everyone should know by now that prout is extremely PROBOWner and every one of his ideas will always benefit the archers the most. Here is my proposal: Archery Elk - Aug, Rifle Elk - first week of Oct., Muzzleloader Elk - second week of Oct. With my proposal nobody gets to hunt the peak of the rut and we can increase the amount of tags and opportunity for everyone not just archers.
Now prout, go ahead and tell me how this and that are different and how everyone always misunderstands you and you were just kidding, and how I'm (whatever you want). I've heard your same arrogant drivel on every forum you have been on. All hail the mighty bowhunter/guide who will without a doubt get you a big bull 90% of the time.
Everyone should know by now that prout is extremely PROBOWner and every one of his ideas will always benefit the archers the most. Here is my proposal: Archery Elk - Aug, Rifle Elk - first week of Oct., Muzzleloader Elk - second week of Oct. With my proposal nobody gets to hunt the peak of the rut and we can increase the amount of tags and opportunity for everyone not just archers.
Now prout, go ahead and tell me how this and that are different and how everyone always misunderstands you and you were just kidding, and how I'm (whatever you want). I've heard your same arrogant drivel on every forum you have been on. All hail the mighty bowhunter/guide who will without a doubt get you a big bull 90% of the time.
P
proutdoors
Guest
Let's look at simple math. For simplicity, lets say they issue 1,000 rifle tags, at 90% success rates that equals 900 killed bulls. If the success rate dropped to 75% then you could issue 1,200 tags and kill the EXACT same number of bulls, 900. That is nearly THREE times the increase of the management tags you so dearly love. What do YOU know that the DWR doesn't? The Big Game Coordinator has gone on record saying the DWR could DOUBLE the number of LE tags across the board for FIVE years before the age objectives would be met, in case you were unaware we are over objectives on most LE units some by two plus years. So how would killing the SAME number of bulls "deminish" the herd?
Right now the tag allotment is doled out 60% to rifle, 25% to archery, and 15% to muzzleloader. If we changed it to 50% rifle, 30% archery, and 20% muzzleloader, in combination to moving the rifle hunt out of September, you could issue a pile more tags while killing the SAME number of bulls as now, with MORE of the older bulls surviving because archers are much less likely to kill the 'top-end' bulls at the same rates as rifle hunters, and the rifle hunters will have to work harder to find/kill these 'top-end' bulls as well, INCREASING teh escapement of older bulls from year to year.
DO THE MATH! More tags at lower success rates = same number of elk, but more hunters getting to HUNT!
PRO
Right now the tag allotment is doled out 60% to rifle, 25% to archery, and 15% to muzzleloader. If we changed it to 50% rifle, 30% archery, and 20% muzzleloader, in combination to moving the rifle hunt out of September, you could issue a pile more tags while killing the SAME number of bulls as now, with MORE of the older bulls surviving because archers are much less likely to kill the 'top-end' bulls at the same rates as rifle hunters, and the rifle hunters will have to work harder to find/kill these 'top-end' bulls as well, INCREASING teh escapement of older bulls from year to year.
DO THE MATH! More tags at lower success rates = same number of elk, but more hunters getting to HUNT!
PRO
P
proutdoors
Guest
"All hail the mighty bowhunter/guide who will without a doubt get you a big bull 90% of the time."
I am sure I will get slammed for this, but I can't help myself. Actually I am batting 100% for the last four years. Gasp, oh the horror.
I can/could live with your season dates, lets do it! Talk is cheap cowboy, put up or shut-up. I walk the walk, you run your piehole. I look for ways to increase opportunity while maintaining quality(whatever than means), and I actually try and make a difference. You bemoan someone else getting off their rear and being PRO-active, while you do NOTHING except say all is well. Hunter recruitment is getting dangerously low, we need to find ways to INCREASE opportunities for ALL hunters, not just 3000 hunters per year. Get seroius about your season dates and I will SHOW UP and help get it implemented. Go for it.
I am in favor of lowering the success rates, even if that means lowering the success rates for my clients. I am not asking for an 'exemption' for the guided hunters, same rules for all, I am all for it.
PRO
I am sure I will get slammed for this, but I can't help myself. Actually I am batting 100% for the last four years. Gasp, oh the horror.
I can/could live with your season dates, lets do it! Talk is cheap cowboy, put up or shut-up. I walk the walk, you run your piehole. I look for ways to increase opportunity while maintaining quality(whatever than means), and I actually try and make a difference. You bemoan someone else getting off their rear and being PRO-active, while you do NOTHING except say all is well. Hunter recruitment is getting dangerously low, we need to find ways to INCREASE opportunities for ALL hunters, not just 3000 hunters per year. Get seroius about your season dates and I will SHOW UP and help get it implemented. Go for it.
I am in favor of lowering the success rates, even if that means lowering the success rates for my clients. I am not asking for an 'exemption' for the guided hunters, same rules for all, I am all for it.
PRO
P
proutdoors
Guest
>Yeah, and i didn't even egg
>this one on.....lol. I
>bet pro was the champion
>of his debate team in
>school.
Nope, I was thrown off the team for arguing too much. HA HA!
PRO
>this one on.....lol. I
>bet pro was the champion
>of his debate team in
>school.
Nope, I was thrown off the team for arguing too much. HA HA!
PRO
R
rutnelk
Guest
Dont' put words in my mouth; no where in my post do I say all is well.
bowhunt
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,191
I can see both sides of this issue:
1: Do not ruin a good thing, 90% is ok. I will draw within a few years and want to have a great hunt like everyone else has had.
2: Give more people a chance to hunt, change the seasons, reduce the harvest rate, give more tags. I do not want to have it a once in a lifetime hunt.
What I do not understand is the total lack of understanding of each others concerns and points.
Pro,
People want to kill a big elk when they draw, they do not want the hunt screwed with, and do not want to loose that opportunity.
500,
This is a math thing. 1000 tags times 50% success = 500 dead elk
500 tags times 100% success = 500 dead elk.
You can absolutely change the success rates by changing the seasons, don't belive me. Go hunt a late Idaho Bull Elk hunt, or look at Arizona.
SO, why do'nt we get together and create a working solution. To be honest with you Pro's is not that bad. Take a few units, increase tags and change seasons seems reasonable. Keep some units just as is.
500 you will probably draw a lot sooner if we make a change, and probably will be able to hunt BIG Bulls, just like today.
Anyway come on guys, look at the issues and concerns each camp has, maybe it is time for a change, maybe it is not. I am not sure, but I would like to discuss it.
1: Do not ruin a good thing, 90% is ok. I will draw within a few years and want to have a great hunt like everyone else has had.
2: Give more people a chance to hunt, change the seasons, reduce the harvest rate, give more tags. I do not want to have it a once in a lifetime hunt.
What I do not understand is the total lack of understanding of each others concerns and points.
Pro,
People want to kill a big elk when they draw, they do not want the hunt screwed with, and do not want to loose that opportunity.
500,
This is a math thing. 1000 tags times 50% success = 500 dead elk
500 tags times 100% success = 500 dead elk.
You can absolutely change the success rates by changing the seasons, don't belive me. Go hunt a late Idaho Bull Elk hunt, or look at Arizona.
SO, why do'nt we get together and create a working solution. To be honest with you Pro's is not that bad. Take a few units, increase tags and change seasons seems reasonable. Keep some units just as is.
500 you will probably draw a lot sooner if we make a change, and probably will be able to hunt BIG Bulls, just like today.
Anyway come on guys, look at the issues and concerns each camp has, maybe it is time for a change, maybe it is not. I am not sure, but I would like to discuss it.
K
ktc
Guest
Yikes! This is getting ugly. Maybe an I400 thread should be started? NOT!
I will say it again, if you want the peak of the rut with a bow there is a hunt, it is the ANY WEAPON season. Why do bow hunters (nothing against them!) want the peak of the rut any way? They have low success and rarely kill elk right? So a hunt before the rut should be right up their alley? Low success and a chance to wander the woods?;-)
There will never be a right answer. Guys with tons of points say leave it alone. Guys who rifle hunt say leave it alone. Bow guys say put the bow season during the any weapon season.
I am glad I am done. The 50k applicants need to hash this one out. PRO, has anyone ever told you you are always right? BTW, what is the Mossback success rate?
I still cannot believe people compare Utah and Arizona. They are not different at all? Both produce monsters and both have draw odds that suck. Without the monsters would anyone really want to hunt these states? I doubt it. I still believe if age objectives are met, the great quality we have is done.
I will say it again, if you want the peak of the rut with a bow there is a hunt, it is the ANY WEAPON season. Why do bow hunters (nothing against them!) want the peak of the rut any way? They have low success and rarely kill elk right? So a hunt before the rut should be right up their alley? Low success and a chance to wander the woods?;-)
There will never be a right answer. Guys with tons of points say leave it alone. Guys who rifle hunt say leave it alone. Bow guys say put the bow season during the any weapon season.
I am glad I am done. The 50k applicants need to hash this one out. PRO, has anyone ever told you you are always right? BTW, what is the Mossback success rate?
I still cannot believe people compare Utah and Arizona. They are not different at all? Both produce monsters and both have draw odds that suck. Without the monsters would anyone really want to hunt these states? I doubt it. I still believe if age objectives are met, the great quality we have is done.
swbuckmaster
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 5,004
Why do you people continue to attack pro for what he does for a living. Who cares what mossback does or what pro does.
What the heck do you do except to wait year after year after year for that paper that says you will be successful! Let's find a way to hunt more than once in a lifetime.
Pro guides all kinds of hunters year after year 100% success rate he must be good at what he does.
Pro also sits hear and tells you the straight up facts not my uncle saw, or my neighbor?s dad says. Pro is on our side even though he is a guide. He wants more tags for the Utah hunter. He also knows this won't affect the herds.
I have also been to these meetings on elk and have heard the division say they could issue out more tags. Let's find a happy medium and do it. I hate to find out how many of these bulls are near the upper end of their life and will die of old age and cant even be picked up by shed hunters. What a waste!
What the heck do you do except to wait year after year after year for that paper that says you will be successful! Let's find a way to hunt more than once in a lifetime.
Pro guides all kinds of hunters year after year 100% success rate he must be good at what he does.
Pro also sits hear and tells you the straight up facts not my uncle saw, or my neighbor?s dad says. Pro is on our side even though he is a guide. He wants more tags for the Utah hunter. He also knows this won't affect the herds.
I have also been to these meetings on elk and have heard the division say they could issue out more tags. Let's find a happy medium and do it. I hate to find out how many of these bulls are near the upper end of their life and will die of old age and cant even be picked up by shed hunters. What a waste!
K
ktc
Guest
bowhunt,
You speak with a level head.
You speak with a level head.
bowhunt
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,191
KTC,
I try, I did shoot an elk this year on the Archery hunt, so I do not have much room to propose change.
I want the right things to happen for Utah, for our Youth, etc.
I am not sure I would want change if my son was near drawing??? So I think the best is to discuss.
Anyway nice nice elk by your wife, wow.
More later I am sure.
I try, I did shoot an elk this year on the Archery hunt, so I do not have much room to propose change.
I want the right things to happen for Utah, for our Youth, etc.
I am not sure I would want change if my son was near drawing??? So I think the best is to discuss.
Anyway nice nice elk by your wife, wow.
More later I am sure.
P
proutdoors
Guest
Roy asked: "So Pro - is it a SLAM-DUNK canned hunt if a hunter flies in one afternoon, kills his bull with rifle at 7AM the next morning and then flies out that same day? Just confused where you stand on that one..."
IF this happens, yes I have a problem with it. How's that? I have NEVER been a part of any such hunt, so I am not sure where your confusion comes from.??
ktc, don't give bowhunt too much praise, or it will go to his head. Congrats Mike on your successful bowhunt, on the same unit as ktc's wife! I know for a fact you busted your hump to get that bull, kudos to you.
PRO
IF this happens, yes I have a problem with it. How's that? I have NEVER been a part of any such hunt, so I am not sure where your confusion comes from.??
ktc, don't give bowhunt too much praise, or it will go to his head. Congrats Mike on your successful bowhunt, on the same unit as ktc's wife! I know for a fact you busted your hump to get that bull, kudos to you.
PRO
K
ktc
Guest
bh,
I try to look at things fairly also. As this subject came up a few years ago I wanted to hear nothing of it as I was on the eve of drawing. I guess my opinion sways to the side of leaving things be for those who have waited. Maybe there is a better way, but I would hate to see things messed up even a little. If I bow hunted I could see the problem with the current dates, however, the first 5 days of my wife's hunt the bugles were few and far between so maybe I could argue the heat of the rut thing?
Thanks for the compliment. That is what it is all about, getting out and getting a bull we want. Congrats on the bow kill!
I try to look at things fairly also. As this subject came up a few years ago I wanted to hear nothing of it as I was on the eve of drawing. I guess my opinion sways to the side of leaving things be for those who have waited. Maybe there is a better way, but I would hate to see things messed up even a little. If I bow hunted I could see the problem with the current dates, however, the first 5 days of my wife's hunt the bugles were few and far between so maybe I could argue the heat of the rut thing?
Thanks for the compliment. That is what it is all about, getting out and getting a bull we want. Congrats on the bow kill!
C
COarcher
Guest
wow this one sure is getting out of hand!!!
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bowhunt
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,191
KTC,
Oh man I understand, how the Dutton hunt was. We had NO rut during the bowhunt, we helped a guy with rifle for a couple of days and it was TOUGH.
I could swing either way on this. Tough issue, and I have empathy for those that are close to drawing, and those that never will.
Maybe we should all do lunch some day and chat about it.
I would even buy.
Oh man I understand, how the Dutton hunt was. We had NO rut during the bowhunt, we helped a guy with rifle for a couple of days and it was TOUGH.
I could swing either way on this. Tough issue, and I have empathy for those that are close to drawing, and those that never will.
Maybe we should all do lunch some day and chat about it.
I would even buy.
So tell me pro,
What is an acceptable success rate?
More tags = more guys shooting raghons. Same success rate.
Don't most bowhunters "stick two"?
Instead of waiting a lifetime for a tag and getting a dream bull I get a 50-50 chance at killing one twice in my life.
I am for a slow increase in tags.
What is an acceptable success rate?
More tags = more guys shooting raghons. Same success rate.
Don't most bowhunters "stick two"?
Instead of waiting a lifetime for a tag and getting a dream bull I get a 50-50 chance at killing one twice in my life.
I am for a slow increase in tags.
K
ktc
Guest
Sure, some day we could do that!
My hat goes off to ANYONE who can kill a Dutton archery bull. That would be the toughest LE tag to fill, that I know of, hands down. Everything is working against you. Congrats on the success!
I called WARBIRDUM and gave him a heads up on your message in the general forum!
My hat goes off to ANYONE who can kill a Dutton archery bull. That would be the toughest LE tag to fill, that I know of, hands down. Everything is working against you. Congrats on the success!
I called WARBIRDUM and gave him a heads up on your message in the general forum!
LAST EDITED ON Oct-09-07 AT 04:13PM (MST)[p]SWBuckMaster.....
How big was the bull your friend ended up getting in the Books??? Did he shoot it off the road out the truck window?
I agree with the Books and the quantity of bucks, but show me pics of the +180" deer shot out there so far this year off a wheeler or truck?
How big was the bull your friend ended up getting in the Books??? Did he shoot it off the road out the truck window?
I agree with the Books and the quantity of bucks, but show me pics of the +180" deer shot out there so far this year off a wheeler or truck?
bowhunt
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,191
Thanks KTC, it was a challenge, but FUN!
Will connect with you later in the year. January seems like a good month for lunch.
Thanks for telling Warbirdum to look at that. I bet we had the same guy with the 4 wheeler.
More later on.
By the way, that is one big bull at the first of this post.
Will connect with you later in the year. January seems like a good month for lunch.
Thanks for telling Warbirdum to look at that. I bet we had the same guy with the 4 wheeler.
More later on.
By the way, that is one big bull at the first of this post.
RINK
Active Member
- Messages
- 183
well here I go , semi-newby poster and all.
Mossback and all associated are bulls--t,, That's reality.. So Pro,, they all might as well run 26 college co-eds through the strip clubs for their meager existence, that ought to pay the bills,, manage that.. Just my opinion,, don't care about the response cause nothin will change the reality of what is going on.. selling the "special ones" as you call them. it's lame,, always has been always will be.
By the way I am just one of those workin, family man, hunt when I can slugs.. So let's not match wits here,, Just my opinion and my reality.
Rink
Mossback and all associated are bulls--t,, That's reality.. So Pro,, they all might as well run 26 college co-eds through the strip clubs for their meager existence, that ought to pay the bills,, manage that.. Just my opinion,, don't care about the response cause nothin will change the reality of what is going on.. selling the "special ones" as you call them. it's lame,, always has been always will be.
By the way I am just one of those workin, family man, hunt when I can slugs.. So let's not match wits here,, Just my opinion and my reality.
Rink
P
proutdoors
Guest
Rink wrote:
"well here I go , semi-newby poster and all.
Mossback and all associated are bulls--t,, That's reality.. So Pro,, they all might as well run 26 college co-eds through the strip clubs for their meager existence, that ought to pay the bills,, manage that.. Just my opinion,, don't care about the response cause nothin will change the reality of what is going on.. selling the "special ones" as you call them. it's lame,, always has been always will be.
By the way I am just one of those workin, family man, hunt when I can slugs.. So let's not match wits here,, Just my opinion and my reality.
Rink "
What a great post. How did you come up with so much wisdom in one post? WOW!
Show where I called you or anyone else a "slug", that was someone else my friend.
I don't even no what the point of your Mossback paragraph was, so it is hard to respond to it. You said, "Mossback and all associated are bulls--t,, That's reality.." Reality, how so, have we ever met? If not, how do you know so much about me? I have NEVER ran other hunters off, I have gone out of my way to help fellow hunters, so why am I bulls--t? Good form, ignore facts and logic, and just run your mouth off, freakin brilliant!
I prefer to guide archers over rifle hunters, so the 'canned' hunt comments directed at me are nonsensical. I do agree with ktc on the Dutton archery hunt being as hard as ANY around, and those who are successful, like bowhunt who killed a great bull, should be commended. The thing is a hog!
I have no doubt I would enjoy lunch with many of you who disagree with me on this and other issues. While I feel strongly about issues, I do enjoy others viewpoints. My thing is, if you are going to make a claim back it up with logic, FACTS, reason, evidence, something that validates your position. I can respect differing views when they are thought out and can be backed up, but to just spout garbage out and have it based on hersay and emotion will get me calling you out. I notice NOT a single FACT I have brought up has been disputed. Yet, I get slammed form all sides by those w/o FACTS, good form. Can't wait for some more ignoring of the FACTS.
PRO
"well here I go , semi-newby poster and all.
Mossback and all associated are bulls--t,, That's reality.. So Pro,, they all might as well run 26 college co-eds through the strip clubs for their meager existence, that ought to pay the bills,, manage that.. Just my opinion,, don't care about the response cause nothin will change the reality of what is going on.. selling the "special ones" as you call them. it's lame,, always has been always will be.
By the way I am just one of those workin, family man, hunt when I can slugs.. So let's not match wits here,, Just my opinion and my reality.
Rink "
What a great post. How did you come up with so much wisdom in one post? WOW!
Show where I called you or anyone else a "slug", that was someone else my friend.
I don't even no what the point of your Mossback paragraph was, so it is hard to respond to it. You said, "Mossback and all associated are bulls--t,, That's reality.." Reality, how so, have we ever met? If not, how do you know so much about me? I have NEVER ran other hunters off, I have gone out of my way to help fellow hunters, so why am I bulls--t? Good form, ignore facts and logic, and just run your mouth off, freakin brilliant!
I prefer to guide archers over rifle hunters, so the 'canned' hunt comments directed at me are nonsensical. I do agree with ktc on the Dutton archery hunt being as hard as ANY around, and those who are successful, like bowhunt who killed a great bull, should be commended. The thing is a hog!
I have no doubt I would enjoy lunch with many of you who disagree with me on this and other issues. While I feel strongly about issues, I do enjoy others viewpoints. My thing is, if you are going to make a claim back it up with logic, FACTS, reason, evidence, something that validates your position. I can respect differing views when they are thought out and can be backed up, but to just spout garbage out and have it based on hersay and emotion will get me calling you out. I notice NOT a single FACT I have brought up has been disputed. Yet, I get slammed form all sides by those w/o FACTS, good form. Can't wait for some more ignoring of the FACTS.
PRO
D
deserteagle500
Guest
pro,
so just exacty how do you know what the success rate will be? i would like to know just how in the h*ll you are so positive that all the management that has been in effect over the years will not be ruined by issueing more tags.
by using your idea, utah should issue more deer tags every year because the success % would go down and therefore something majical would happen and there would still be deer.
like i said before, LESS TAGS= MORE ANIMALS.
MORE TAGS= LESS ANIMALS.
please though enlighten the rest of us utards about your success numbers for the future...
beat this
so just exacty how do you know what the success rate will be? i would like to know just how in the h*ll you are so positive that all the management that has been in effect over the years will not be ruined by issueing more tags.
by using your idea, utah should issue more deer tags every year because the success % would go down and therefore something majical would happen and there would still be deer.
like i said before, LESS TAGS= MORE ANIMALS.
MORE TAGS= LESS ANIMALS.
please though enlighten the rest of us utards about your success numbers for the future...
beat this
A
ARROWINTHEAIR
Guest
KEEP IT GOING BOYS! 73 POSTS AND COUNTING!! THIS HAS BEEN ONE OF THE MOST ENTERTAINING DAYS I'VE HAD AT WORK IN A LONG TIME!
P
proutdoors
Guest
>pro,
>so just exacty how do you
>know what the success rate
>will be? i would like
>to know just how in
>the h*ll you are so
>positive that all the management
>that has been in effect
>over the years will not
>be ruined by issueing more
>tags.
>
>by using your idea, utah should
>issue more deer tags every
>year because the success %
>would go down and therefore
>something majical would happen and
>there would still be deer.
>
>
>like i said before, LESS TAGS=
>MORE ANIMALS.
>MORE TAGS= LESS ANIMALS.
>
>please though enlighten the rest of
>us utards about your success
>numbers for the future...
>
>
>
>
>beat this
Are you being serious? Are the deer tags issued during the RUT? Follow along, the success rates are around 90% BECAUSE the rifle hunt is during the RUT, name another state that has 90% success rates for their rifle hunters across the board. There is none, because there are no other states that issue the bulk of their rifle tags during the rut. Move the rifle hunt out of the RUT and success rates WILL go down, it doesn't take much thinking to see that, just look at EVERY other state around Utah.
You said:"like i said before, LESS TAGS= MORE ANIMALS.
MORE TAGS= LESS ANIMALS. "
I say: LESS TAGS= HIGHER SUCCESS RATES
RIFLE TAGS ISSUED OUT OF THE RUT=LOWER SUCCESS RATES WHICH ALLOW FOR MORE TAGS TO BE ISSUED WHILE KILLING THE SAME NUMBER OF BULLS! ONe more time, 1000 tags at 90% SR= 900 dead bulls, 1200 tags at 75% SR= 900 dead bulls. Same number of dead bulls with 200 MORE tags. There is a show on Fox hosted by Jeff Foxworthy, I already know the answer you have for his question.
PRO
>so just exacty how do you
>know what the success rate
>will be? i would like
>to know just how in
>the h*ll you are so
>positive that all the management
>that has been in effect
>over the years will not
>be ruined by issueing more
>tags.
>
>by using your idea, utah should
>issue more deer tags every
>year because the success %
>would go down and therefore
>something majical would happen and
>there would still be deer.
>
>
>like i said before, LESS TAGS=
>MORE ANIMALS.
>MORE TAGS= LESS ANIMALS.
>
>please though enlighten the rest of
>us utards about your success
>numbers for the future...
>
>
>
>
>beat this
Are you being serious? Are the deer tags issued during the RUT? Follow along, the success rates are around 90% BECAUSE the rifle hunt is during the RUT, name another state that has 90% success rates for their rifle hunters across the board. There is none, because there are no other states that issue the bulk of their rifle tags during the rut. Move the rifle hunt out of the RUT and success rates WILL go down, it doesn't take much thinking to see that, just look at EVERY other state around Utah.
You said:"like i said before, LESS TAGS= MORE ANIMALS.
MORE TAGS= LESS ANIMALS. "
I say: LESS TAGS= HIGHER SUCCESS RATES
RIFLE TAGS ISSUED OUT OF THE RUT=LOWER SUCCESS RATES WHICH ALLOW FOR MORE TAGS TO BE ISSUED WHILE KILLING THE SAME NUMBER OF BULLS! ONe more time, 1000 tags at 90% SR= 900 dead bulls, 1200 tags at 75% SR= 900 dead bulls. Same number of dead bulls with 200 MORE tags. There is a show on Fox hosted by Jeff Foxworthy, I already know the answer you have for his question.
PRO
D
deserteagle500
Guest
LAST EDITED ON Oct-09-07 AT 05:33PM (MST)[p]and the answer to the question is..drum roll....NO PRO, i'm sorry you have shown that you ARE NOT smarter than a 5th grader!
but please tell me where the success rates are coming from? i would like to know the credible place please.
beat this
but please tell me where the success rates are coming from? i would like to know the credible place please.
beat this
K
ktc
Guest
One concern I have since we are talking only FACTS. Can someone show me some FACTS, maybe you should contact pro, swb, since you cannot provide them. Where is the "died of old age" bulls and their numbers? Now THAT is the stupidest argument I have ever read. Died of old age...... Give me a break. Even if a few die of old age swb, is that really a shame? Or should you be the one who kills it?
Since everyone kills 380+ bulls, could someone please show me the 1500 or so of them that should be dead? I have yet to see any less than 380 on MM. Right? 90% probably-380+ canned not a chance! Died of old age? Bull-pucky! Yet to find one of those.
PRO, does Doyle get mad at you sometimes?;-)
Since everyone kills 380+ bulls, could someone please show me the 1500 or so of them that should be dead? I have yet to see any less than 380 on MM. Right? 90% probably-380+ canned not a chance! Died of old age? Bull-pucky! Yet to find one of those.
PRO, does Doyle get mad at you sometimes?;-)
FishlakeElkHunter
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,177
This is turning into a I400 thread.....like it or not!
I think PRO has some great comments! I agree with most of them. The rifle hunt in the rut is "almost" and I say again "almost" like a ranch hunt.
That being said, a 370 bull is NO given!!!! I had a Muzzy tag and only killed a small bull. It is not easy hunt by any means! I had my chances but did not get the GIANT that I wanted. I would love to get another chance though. I killed a smaller bull but had a GREAT GREAT GREAT time on my hunt and I would love the chance to kill another one even after a 330 bull. I would rather hunt 330 bulls every 5 years or so, than only have ONE chance ever in my life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think PRO has some great comments! I agree with most of them. The rifle hunt in the rut is "almost" and I say again "almost" like a ranch hunt.
That being said, a 370 bull is NO given!!!! I had a Muzzy tag and only killed a small bull. It is not easy hunt by any means! I had my chances but did not get the GIANT that I wanted. I would love to get another chance though. I killed a smaller bull but had a GREAT GREAT GREAT time on my hunt and I would love the chance to kill another one even after a 330 bull. I would rather hunt 330 bulls every 5 years or so, than only have ONE chance ever in my life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
K
ktc
Guest
FLEH,
That is kind of selfish since you just drew out? Muzzy had a better rut hunt than the rifle guys right, at least as good of a rut which was not much? Ranch hunt your ass even if you say almost. No sour grapes now FLEH! Don't blame rifle guys because you did not get your GIANT.
What was your chances at 330(?) without the current elk management? None? raghorn? Come on FLEH, don't even do this..I better stop you are starting to piss me off FLEH.
That is kind of selfish since you just drew out? Muzzy had a better rut hunt than the rifle guys right, at least as good of a rut which was not much? Ranch hunt your ass even if you say almost. No sour grapes now FLEH! Don't blame rifle guys because you did not get your GIANT.
What was your chances at 330(?) without the current elk management? None? raghorn? Come on FLEH, don't even do this..I better stop you are starting to piss me off FLEH.
LAST EDITED ON Oct-09-07 AT 05:57PM (MST)[p]Are you kidding yourself? Part of the appeal of the LE tags for most guys putting in is the 90% success rate. After waiting 15yrs for a tag, you should expect a damn good chance at killing a very respectable bull....or why the hell would you waist the time and money putting in???
Get a LE tag more often would be great, but not if the odds of success go down drastically. Hell...if you want those odds...go get a general bull tag and have at it.
You want a monster....either fork up the $$ and pay the likes of Doyle or do the time with the rest of us common folk and make the most of it when you finally pull. Ranch hunt....hardly.
Get a LE tag more often would be great, but not if the odds of success go down drastically. Hell...if you want those odds...go get a general bull tag and have at it.
You want a monster....either fork up the $$ and pay the likes of Doyle or do the time with the rest of us common folk and make the most of it when you finally pull. Ranch hunt....hardly.
FishlakeElkHunter
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,177
KTC..
I dont think I am being selfish. And I am not blaming ANYONE for shooting a biggger bull. I just couldnt hit the damn things!!! I blame NO ONE but myself for that!!!! Where do you get that I blame anyone!! Now you are pissing me off!!!
Some units are FOR SURE tougher than others. The unit you and your wife were on, IMO, is the toughest unit in the state and you did AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes, the rut was FANTASTIC for my hunt!!!! all I am saying is that it would be fun to do this more than once in a lifetime!! I understand that it is the current plan than gave us this chance. ALl I am saying is that it would be nice to increase opportunity a little without hurting quality. How to do this, I do not know.
I had lots of chances at 330 plus bulls and ended up taking one smaller and I had a great hunt.
That is why I hate this site sometimes!!!!!! Everyone is looking for a fight!!! That is what pisses me off!!!!!!!!!!!!! WTF!!!!!!
I have to get out of here for a while. this is CRAZY!!!!!!!!!
I dont think I am being selfish. And I am not blaming ANYONE for shooting a biggger bull. I just couldnt hit the damn things!!! I blame NO ONE but myself for that!!!! Where do you get that I blame anyone!! Now you are pissing me off!!!
Some units are FOR SURE tougher than others. The unit you and your wife were on, IMO, is the toughest unit in the state and you did AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes, the rut was FANTASTIC for my hunt!!!! all I am saying is that it would be fun to do this more than once in a lifetime!! I understand that it is the current plan than gave us this chance. ALl I am saying is that it would be nice to increase opportunity a little without hurting quality. How to do this, I do not know.
I had lots of chances at 330 plus bulls and ended up taking one smaller and I had a great hunt.
That is why I hate this site sometimes!!!!!! Everyone is looking for a fight!!! That is what pisses me off!!!!!!!!!!!!! WTF!!!!!!
I have to get out of here for a while. this is CRAZY!!!!!!!!!
D
deserteagle500
Guest
lets agree to disagree on somethings. i still think if they issue more tags there would be less elk, and less of the monsters that are so sought after. (no matter what date the hunt was to comense) but if 90% is too high, why don't they just move tags from rifle over to archery. that'd give you some of what you are looking for. right?
beat this
beat this
B
bobcatbess
Guest
WOW!!!
I DIDN'T MEAN TO GET Pro'S PANTIES IN A WAD!!!
IT DIDN'T TAKE MUCH!!!
LOOKS LIKE WE'RE BACK ON THE DOWNHILL SLIDE & HUNTING SEASONS AIN'T EVEN OVER WITH YET!!!
GET YOUR RECURVE Pro!!!
GET YOU FRICKEN CEDAR ARROWS Pro!!!
GET YOUR MOCCASINS Pro!!!
HOW BOUT YOUR BUFFALO BRIEFS Pro!!!
PULL OUT YOUR PIPE & SMOKE YOU SOME & PASS IT AROUND!!!
TAKE A FRICKEN CHILL PILL & THINK BEFORE YOU SPEAK!!!
YOU EVER TRIED THAT???
THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
I DIDN'T MEAN TO GET Pro'S PANTIES IN A WAD!!!
IT DIDN'T TAKE MUCH!!!
LOOKS LIKE WE'RE BACK ON THE DOWNHILL SLIDE & HUNTING SEASONS AIN'T EVEN OVER WITH YET!!!
GET YOUR RECURVE Pro!!!
GET YOU FRICKEN CEDAR ARROWS Pro!!!
GET YOUR MOCCASINS Pro!!!
HOW BOUT YOUR BUFFALO BRIEFS Pro!!!
PULL OUT YOUR PIPE & SMOKE YOU SOME & PASS IT AROUND!!!
TAKE A FRICKEN CHILL PILL & THINK BEFORE YOU SPEAK!!!
YOU EVER TRIED THAT???
THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
http://www.wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggame/pdf/06_le_stats/elk.pdf
The fact's are in the above link.
The late and early hunts success rates are almost the same. Fact is on some units the late hunt has a higher sucess rate. Moving the Any weapon out of the rut will accomplish nothing as far as the number of bulls harvested. Fact is moving the Archery hunt to the rut will increase the sucess rate and the total number of bulls killed per year by all weapon types will be higher.
FLEH,
As for Any Weapon hunts being like an canned/high fence hunt. That's the stupidest statement I've read on here in along time.
Also heres a link for you.
http://www.wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggame/pdf/07_stats/08.pdf
If you want to hunt 330 bull's every 5 years there are units with decent odd's you can do that on.
The fact's are in the above link.
The late and early hunts success rates are almost the same. Fact is on some units the late hunt has a higher sucess rate. Moving the Any weapon out of the rut will accomplish nothing as far as the number of bulls harvested. Fact is moving the Archery hunt to the rut will increase the sucess rate and the total number of bulls killed per year by all weapon types will be higher.
FLEH,
As for Any Weapon hunts being like an canned/high fence hunt. That's the stupidest statement I've read on here in along time.
Also heres a link for you.
http://www.wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggame/pdf/07_stats/08.pdf
If you want to hunt 330 bull's every 5 years there are units with decent odd's you can do that on.
D
deserteagle500
Guest
bobcat, do you ever think before you speak??? oh wait, you DO! thats why what you say is taken seriously.
beat this
beat this
K
ktc
Guest
FLEH,
You stated the LE rifle hunts are almost like a ranch hunt. This pissed me off. I hope you did not mean it that way. If you did I am still pissed, if not, oh well you have a right to your opinion.
Thanks. I feel like we hit it hard and done pretty good. Not the biggest, but for us it was what we had hoped for. After 4 days I was starting to wonder how tag soup would taste when my wife got done.
There is nothing wrong with your bull. Better than most will ever get. In Utah we have an unusual chance to get some bigger bulls. When I drew out I knew that was probably it. I do not feel I have any voice in what happens going forward. I would like to go again, but lots of folks are behind me waiting and for me to want change I would feel that would be selfish on my part.
Thanks for the kudos, but I disagree that a public land LE hunt could ever be compared to a penned hunt. I also feel the any weapon hunts give everyone a chance to hunt the best dates with the weapon they like. I am with Antler1, I am not sold that this I400 stuff will not affect things. I really do not think the elk herd is broke. The application system yes, the elk herd, no.
You stated the LE rifle hunts are almost like a ranch hunt. This pissed me off. I hope you did not mean it that way. If you did I am still pissed, if not, oh well you have a right to your opinion.
Thanks. I feel like we hit it hard and done pretty good. Not the biggest, but for us it was what we had hoped for. After 4 days I was starting to wonder how tag soup would taste when my wife got done.
There is nothing wrong with your bull. Better than most will ever get. In Utah we have an unusual chance to get some bigger bulls. When I drew out I knew that was probably it. I do not feel I have any voice in what happens going forward. I would like to go again, but lots of folks are behind me waiting and for me to want change I would feel that would be selfish on my part.
Thanks for the kudos, but I disagree that a public land LE hunt could ever be compared to a penned hunt. I also feel the any weapon hunts give everyone a chance to hunt the best dates with the weapon they like. I am with Antler1, I am not sold that this I400 stuff will not affect things. I really do not think the elk herd is broke. The application system yes, the elk herd, no.
B
bobcatbess
Guest
ktc!!!
THERES A BUNCH OF JEALOUS SELFISH GREEDY BASTAGES WANTING IN ON THE BIG STINKY'S!!!
ALOT OF THEM COULD OF STARTED PUTTING IN & EARNING POINTS BUT DIDN'T!!!
NOW THEY'RE PIZZED!!!
THEY SEE THESE BIG BULLS GETTING BIGGER BY THE YEAR & THEY THINK ITS THEIR GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO ONE!!!
WELL ITS NOT!!!
SOMETIMES IN LIFE YOU HAVE TO EARN THINGS THE HARD WAY!!!
NOT EVERYBODY IN UTAH CAN HUNT TROPHY MULE DEER & ELK EVERY FRICKEN YEAR!!!
GET OVER IT BOYS!!!
CALL IT A RANCH HUNT IF YOU WANT BUT IT AIN'T!!!
ITS SUCH A RANCH HUNT I HOPE YOU ALL GET PIZZED & DON'T PUT IN FOR THE RANCH HUNTS THIS JANUARY!!!
THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
THERES A BUNCH OF JEALOUS SELFISH GREEDY BASTAGES WANTING IN ON THE BIG STINKY'S!!!
ALOT OF THEM COULD OF STARTED PUTTING IN & EARNING POINTS BUT DIDN'T!!!
NOW THEY'RE PIZZED!!!
THEY SEE THESE BIG BULLS GETTING BIGGER BY THE YEAR & THEY THINK ITS THEIR GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO ONE!!!
WELL ITS NOT!!!
SOMETIMES IN LIFE YOU HAVE TO EARN THINGS THE HARD WAY!!!
NOT EVERYBODY IN UTAH CAN HUNT TROPHY MULE DEER & ELK EVERY FRICKEN YEAR!!!
GET OVER IT BOYS!!!
CALL IT A RANCH HUNT IF YOU WANT BUT IT AIN'T!!!
ITS SUCH A RANCH HUNT I HOPE YOU ALL GET PIZZED & DON'T PUT IN FOR THE RANCH HUNTS THIS JANUARY!!!
THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
P
proutdoors
Guest
Damn fun entertainment today, thanks guys. I haven't laughed that hard in awhile.
Bobcat, I didn't draw this year by pure bad luck, nearly everyone with my points drew, so I should draw next year. I assure you my motivation to increase tag numbers has NOTHING to do with improving MY odds of drawing, FACT. I have NOT mentioned I400, others have, so I guess that gives me a green light to address a few issues. First, we wanted to propose this at the RAC meetings next month, but we have a few issues we are still working on, so we have decided to delay proposing it until 2008, AFTER I draw my archery LE tag.
I do many things that do not directly benefit me, I say this not to "pat myself on the back", but to explain where I come from. I have killed bulls over the 360" mark with my bow already, so if I never kill another bull I will be fine. What I dream about is my son Beau Hunter, who will be three next month, being able to persue animals of this caliber in his lifetime. The current system blows, plain and simple. Bessy accuses me of being selfish, yet he says. "THERES A BUNCH OF JEALOUS SELFISH GREEDY BASTAGES WANTING IN ON THE BIG STINKY'S!!!
ALOT OF THEM COULD OF STARTED PUTTING IN & EARNING POINTS BUT DIDN'T!!!
NOW THEY'RE PIZZED!!!
THEY SEE THESE BIG BULLS GETTING BIGGER BY THE YEAR & THEY THINK ITS THEIR GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO ONE!!!
WELL ITS NOT!!!
SOMETIMES IN LIFE YOU HAVE TO EARN THINGS THE HARD WAY!!!
NOT EVERYBODY IN UTAH CAN HUNT TROPHY MULE DEER & ELK EVERY FRICKEN YEAR!!!
GET OVER IT BOYS!!!"
Now who sounds selfish? I suppose I should tell my son to never aspire to hunt a LE unit in Utah, because Bessy says he doesn't deserve a tag, EVER! Yep, I am the selfish one alright. Under the current system, MOST ten year old FUTURE hunters will never draw a LE elk tag. That does NOT bode well for the future of hunting here in Utah and elsewhere. Without new hunters joining the ranks, we are SOL.
I am at a loss as to why lowering the success rate from 90% down to 75% would make it like an any-bull area. The any-bull areas 'enjoy' less than 20% success rates, just a litle different than SEVENTY FIVE PERCENT, don't you think?
Bessy, who is more selfish, someone who says too bad, you should have got in the game earlier like ME, or someone looking for ways to increase opportunity while maintaining quality? Answer the damn question!
PRO
Bobcat, I didn't draw this year by pure bad luck, nearly everyone with my points drew, so I should draw next year. I assure you my motivation to increase tag numbers has NOTHING to do with improving MY odds of drawing, FACT. I have NOT mentioned I400, others have, so I guess that gives me a green light to address a few issues. First, we wanted to propose this at the RAC meetings next month, but we have a few issues we are still working on, so we have decided to delay proposing it until 2008, AFTER I draw my archery LE tag.
I do many things that do not directly benefit me, I say this not to "pat myself on the back", but to explain where I come from. I have killed bulls over the 360" mark with my bow already, so if I never kill another bull I will be fine. What I dream about is my son Beau Hunter, who will be three next month, being able to persue animals of this caliber in his lifetime. The current system blows, plain and simple. Bessy accuses me of being selfish, yet he says. "THERES A BUNCH OF JEALOUS SELFISH GREEDY BASTAGES WANTING IN ON THE BIG STINKY'S!!!
ALOT OF THEM COULD OF STARTED PUTTING IN & EARNING POINTS BUT DIDN'T!!!
NOW THEY'RE PIZZED!!!
THEY SEE THESE BIG BULLS GETTING BIGGER BY THE YEAR & THEY THINK ITS THEIR GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO ONE!!!
WELL ITS NOT!!!
SOMETIMES IN LIFE YOU HAVE TO EARN THINGS THE HARD WAY!!!
NOT EVERYBODY IN UTAH CAN HUNT TROPHY MULE DEER & ELK EVERY FRICKEN YEAR!!!
GET OVER IT BOYS!!!"
Now who sounds selfish? I suppose I should tell my son to never aspire to hunt a LE unit in Utah, because Bessy says he doesn't deserve a tag, EVER! Yep, I am the selfish one alright. Under the current system, MOST ten year old FUTURE hunters will never draw a LE elk tag. That does NOT bode well for the future of hunting here in Utah and elsewhere. Without new hunters joining the ranks, we are SOL.
I am at a loss as to why lowering the success rate from 90% down to 75% would make it like an any-bull area. The any-bull areas 'enjoy' less than 20% success rates, just a litle different than SEVENTY FIVE PERCENT, don't you think?
Bessy, who is more selfish, someone who says too bad, you should have got in the game earlier like ME, or someone looking for ways to increase opportunity while maintaining quality? Answer the damn question!
PRO
P
proutdoors
Guest
All I am trying to say is, by making a few MINOR changes, many more hunters could hunt, w/o killing any more bulls.
You say: "NOT SATISFYING A BUNCH OF PISSCUTTIN FOOLS THAT DON'T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT THE FUTURE NO FURTHER THAN TOMMORROW!!!"
I would say most, if not all, the people I know advocating changing season dates ARE concerned about the future. It is an unfounded claim to say otherwise. Bull/cow ratios are getting out of hand, this will cause MAJOR problems in the NEAR future if not addressed fairly quickly, and the 'management tag' as implemented will do little/nothing to alleviate the problem. On the San Juan the DWR says the herd population is at max capacity, so because of near-sghted folks like yourselves not allowing additional bull tags to be issued, the DWR is FORCED to issue more cow tags to keep the overall population numbers in check. This makes the bull/cow ratio WORSE by the year, which LOWERS the number of calves born each year, which means FEWER bulls being recruited into the herd each year, which means FEWER big bulls available to hunt in the near future! How is the current system "GIVING A DAMN ABOUT THE FUTURE FURTHER THAN TOMORROW"?
PRO
You say: "NOT SATISFYING A BUNCH OF PISSCUTTIN FOOLS THAT DON'T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT THE FUTURE NO FURTHER THAN TOMMORROW!!!"
I would say most, if not all, the people I know advocating changing season dates ARE concerned about the future. It is an unfounded claim to say otherwise. Bull/cow ratios are getting out of hand, this will cause MAJOR problems in the NEAR future if not addressed fairly quickly, and the 'management tag' as implemented will do little/nothing to alleviate the problem. On the San Juan the DWR says the herd population is at max capacity, so because of near-sghted folks like yourselves not allowing additional bull tags to be issued, the DWR is FORCED to issue more cow tags to keep the overall population numbers in check. This makes the bull/cow ratio WORSE by the year, which LOWERS the number of calves born each year, which means FEWER bulls being recruited into the herd each year, which means FEWER big bulls available to hunt in the near future! How is the current system "GIVING A DAMN ABOUT THE FUTURE FURTHER THAN TOMORROW"?
PRO
B
bobcatbess
Guest
Pro!!!
DON'T START YOUR BULL$HIT WITH ME ON THE SJ!!!
THE ONLY REASON THE BULL TO COW RATIO'S ARE OUT OF WHACK IS DUE TO PISS POOR MANAGEMENT WITH THEIR FRICKEN COW KILLER HUNTS!!!
DAMN RIGHTS,KILL ENOUGH COWS,IT WON'T BE LONG BEFORE WE GOT TARDS WONDERING WHY THE RATIO'S ARE ####ED UP!!!
SCREAM,SCREAM,SCREAM,WE'VE GOT TOO MANY BULLS PER COWS!!!
I WONDER WTF CAUSED THAT NOW???
DUH!!!
YOU WANT TO DISCUSS ANOTHER LE UNIT THAT IS NOW ####ED UP DUE TO PISS POOR MANAGEMENT Pro???
BRING IT ON Pro!!!
THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
DON'T START YOUR BULL$HIT WITH ME ON THE SJ!!!
THE ONLY REASON THE BULL TO COW RATIO'S ARE OUT OF WHACK IS DUE TO PISS POOR MANAGEMENT WITH THEIR FRICKEN COW KILLER HUNTS!!!
DAMN RIGHTS,KILL ENOUGH COWS,IT WON'T BE LONG BEFORE WE GOT TARDS WONDERING WHY THE RATIO'S ARE ####ED UP!!!
SCREAM,SCREAM,SCREAM,WE'VE GOT TOO MANY BULLS PER COWS!!!
I WONDER WTF CAUSED THAT NOW???
DUH!!!
YOU WANT TO DISCUSS ANOTHER LE UNIT THAT IS NOW ####ED UP DUE TO PISS POOR MANAGEMENT Pro???
BRING IT ON Pro!!!
THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
B
bobcatbess
Guest
gdog IS PROBABLY RIGHT!!!
I KNOW YOU GUIDE Pro!!!
YOU GOT YOUR OWN BUSINESS???
OR ARE YOU ONE OF THE MOSSBACK CREW???
OR???
THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
I KNOW YOU GUIDE Pro!!!
YOU GOT YOUR OWN BUSINESS???
OR ARE YOU ONE OF THE MOSSBACK CREW???
OR???
THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
bowhunt
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,191
I give, uncle, calf rope whatever it is you say....but man you guys are cracking me up.
You each have valid points, each have good intentions, you each want great Bulls harvested in Utah. I think you all want your kids to have a chance to hunt a Big Bull some day, but you continue to attack and argue.
Let's agree to discuss this in January, over lunch or dinner, or just sitting down. Let's work towards getting on the same page.
Maybe we all decide we need change, maybe we come to the decision that the path we are on is perfect. I am not sure.
I think we can always improve the system, or at least propose improvement.
Anyway, keep at it if you want. As stated earlier. I GIVE.
You each have valid points, each have good intentions, you each want great Bulls harvested in Utah. I think you all want your kids to have a chance to hunt a Big Bull some day, but you continue to attack and argue.
Let's agree to discuss this in January, over lunch or dinner, or just sitting down. Let's work towards getting on the same page.
Maybe we all decide we need change, maybe we come to the decision that the path we are on is perfect. I am not sure.
I think we can always improve the system, or at least propose improvement.
Anyway, keep at it if you want. As stated earlier. I GIVE.
FishlakeElkHunter
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,177
LAST EDITED ON Oct-09-07 AT 10:05PM (MST)[p]KTC....
I guess I should have have changed the way I worded the first post. To say that a LE Utah ELK hunt is like a canned hunt is extreme, believe me I know. I had a tag this year. I have helped on hunts for the last 5 years. I have had lots of friends draw. What I am saying, is that some units are easier than others and the Rifle in the heat of the rut is easier than hunting in November. It seems this has got way blown out of proportion. Rick says you are a good guy, and I believe and trust him, so I do not want to make an enemy out of you. I do not want to make enemys out of anyone on this site. I have got a lot of good info here and want to stay here. I think I am better off just keeping my mouth shut like I had before this year.
I think you are right, the applications system is what is broke. Also, someone said that the cow hunts are what is hurting the bull to cow ratio. I think that is true! They almost ruined the Fishlake unit with the great cow slaughter years ago!
And, I guess I am being selfish...kind of....just had so much fun this year, I want to do it again....can you blame me??
I guess I should have have changed the way I worded the first post. To say that a LE Utah ELK hunt is like a canned hunt is extreme, believe me I know. I had a tag this year. I have helped on hunts for the last 5 years. I have had lots of friends draw. What I am saying, is that some units are easier than others and the Rifle in the heat of the rut is easier than hunting in November. It seems this has got way blown out of proportion. Rick says you are a good guy, and I believe and trust him, so I do not want to make an enemy out of you. I do not want to make enemys out of anyone on this site. I have got a lot of good info here and want to stay here. I think I am better off just keeping my mouth shut like I had before this year.
I think you are right, the applications system is what is broke. Also, someone said that the cow hunts are what is hurting the bull to cow ratio. I think that is true! They almost ruined the Fishlake unit with the great cow slaughter years ago!
And, I guess I am being selfish...kind of....just had so much fun this year, I want to do it again....can you blame me??
antlerrick
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,626
What a post
Seems like this post has created a little controversy over everyone's opinions and wording...
I can't say that the LE rifle hunts are a "ranch" hunt. Sure the harvest percentage is higher, and the bulls are bigger, but isn't that the way the plan was intended. I'd still bet there are a lot more bulls smaller than 350 killed than bulls over 350. Not everyone has the patience to wait for a bigger bull with a limited number of days to hunt. Yes, there are more and more bigger bulls killed each year, but that just shows me the system is working.
The LE rifle hunt for my wife this year was not a cakewalk, but it was possible for her to harvest a nice bull due to the type of management that we have. She was very patient and determined to wait for a good bull, knowing that tag soup was a possibility, but also knowing that with the chance to see lots of bulls every day, the chance of finding a big one were good.
I do believe that the success rate would remain quite high, even if the dates were changed, to a degree. I'm sure it wouldn't be as high, but we all know that people would spend the time and harvest any bull they could if the time got short. You probably wouldn't see as many bigger bulls harvested, but they would still be taken sooner or later. This year's rut was so late that it was definately not the same as hunting the rut, but with the bulls beginning to heat up, they were still easier to find compared to a few weeks earlier.
I think we can all agree to disagree that not everyone can agree on anything. That is just life!
This has been a fun post to read, but the arguing gets pretty bad sometimes....
Let's hear some more "opinions" and see what else happens!
Seems like this post has created a little controversy over everyone's opinions and wording...
I can't say that the LE rifle hunts are a "ranch" hunt. Sure the harvest percentage is higher, and the bulls are bigger, but isn't that the way the plan was intended. I'd still bet there are a lot more bulls smaller than 350 killed than bulls over 350. Not everyone has the patience to wait for a bigger bull with a limited number of days to hunt. Yes, there are more and more bigger bulls killed each year, but that just shows me the system is working.
The LE rifle hunt for my wife this year was not a cakewalk, but it was possible for her to harvest a nice bull due to the type of management that we have. She was very patient and determined to wait for a good bull, knowing that tag soup was a possibility, but also knowing that with the chance to see lots of bulls every day, the chance of finding a big one were good.
I do believe that the success rate would remain quite high, even if the dates were changed, to a degree. I'm sure it wouldn't be as high, but we all know that people would spend the time and harvest any bull they could if the time got short. You probably wouldn't see as many bigger bulls harvested, but they would still be taken sooner or later. This year's rut was so late that it was definately not the same as hunting the rut, but with the bulls beginning to heat up, they were still easier to find compared to a few weeks earlier.
I think we can all agree to disagree that not everyone can agree on anything. That is just life!
This has been a fun post to read, but the arguing gets pretty bad sometimes....
Let's hear some more "opinions" and see what else happens!
G
Giantcat
Guest
If we took the time we have all spent reading this thread and making posts and put it into attending rack meetings, mabey some of the good ideas brought up here could be implemented. I would love to see more tags issued. I want my boy to have many opportunitys to hunt elk in Utah as well as myself.(by the way this is comming from someone who has one under max points for LE elk.) Lets be proactive and voice our opinions to those who can help get the changes made.
.270 Win....COOL MEDICINE FOR BARBEQUE DREAMS.
.270 Win....COOL MEDICINE FOR BARBEQUE DREAMS.
K
ktc
Guest
RE: What a post
That is cool FLEH. I do not look for enemies myself. Rick said I am a good guy? What the hell is he smoking tonight?;-) Ha!
That is cool FLEH. I do not look for enemies myself. Rick said I am a good guy? What the hell is he smoking tonight?;-) Ha!
