IS THIS REAL?

RE: What a post

LAST EDITED ON Oct-09-07 AT 11:30PM (MST)[p]Hey now...
I've tried my dangest to make people believe you are a good guy.. Don't make all my hard work backfire!!!
You know that is tough duty convincing people, especially on here!!! haha
Everything is a go on the wife's bull...
And all I'm on tonight is a few pain killers!!!!!
When a fat guy builds and butchers all in the same night, he hurts!!!! Probably why I'm still up!!
 
RE: What a post

Oh, that explains a lot!;-)

Let me know if you need any help getting that Bad Boy Bull taken care of!
 
Giantcat!!!

SO IS YOUR NAME DUSTIN KESLER???

IF WE ARE GONNA VOICE OUR OPPINIONS!!!

THE WORLD OUGHT TO KNOW WHO'S MAKING THE MUSIC!!!

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THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
??? FOR Pro???

JUST A QUICK EASY QUESTION Pro???

DO YOU KNOW WHAT CAUSED THE BULL TO COW RATIO ON ALL THESE LE UNITS???

DO YOU WANT TO DISCUSS AN LE UNIT THAT USED TO BE A GREAT UNIT THAT IS NOW IN PISS POOR SHAPE???

YOUR OVERLOAD BLOWED LAST NIGHT Pro!!!

ITS TIME TO HIT THE RESET BUTTON!!!

YOU ACT LIKE THEY HAVEN'T ADDED OPPORTUNITY IN LE UNITS!!!

WTF???

THEY'VE ADDED THE MUZZ HUNT!!!

THEY'VE ADDED THE LATE RIFLE HUNT!!!

THEY'VE ADDED THE 5 POINT(PISSCUTTER) HUNT!!!

WE NOW HAVE THE PREMIUM HUNT!!!

THEY'VE BUMPED THE NUMBER OF PERMITS UP SOME!!!

WTF DO YOU WANT???

IF YOU WANT OPPORTUNITY & THERES ALL KINDS OF IT OUT THERE JUST HUNT THE GENERAL HUNTS & LETS JUST SEE HOW DAMN MANY 380"+ BULLS YOU TAKE!!!

I SEEN THE UTAH DEER HERDS TAKE A MAJOR CHANGE WITH MY OWN EYES & ITS NEVER RECOVERED,I'D SURE AS HELL HATE TO SEE OUR TROPHY BULL UNITS TAKE THE SAME KIND OF HIT!!!


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THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
RE: ??? FOR Pro???

bobcat,
you said the exact same thing i said earlier. if we have more opportunity then the LE units will end up like the deer herds. i still just can't understand why pro is whining about such a great thing.

i'm all for more tags though. they want opportuntiy??? give it too em! more archery tags... its that simple. maybe add two archery tags for every rifle tag they take away??? i like the way it is, and if i never draw a LE tag, then holy shiz, i'll live!!! i'll go hunt somewhere else. these people act like the LE units are the only places that hold big mature bulls. i was on a 350ish bull on a 45 dollar otc elk tag with my bow. the big guys are out there.





beat this
 
I have no use for canned hunts. However, I know a guy who went on a canned hunt in Nebraska and shot a 400 class bull. He'll be the first to tell you he wanted a mount in the lobby of his business. He said the entire thing was a tax write off and he had a good time. The point being, do whatever floats yer boat...
 
I'll let this die after this post.

Bobcat, the bull/cow ratios are way out of whack because people won't allow for more bulls to be taken, and these units can sustain only so many elk. This FORCES the DWR to issue cow tags to keep the population in check. What else can the DWR do? If they propose increasing the number of bull tags, you and others go beserk, so they issue more cow tags and YOU blame the DWR. You have to either kill more bulls or contunue killing cows, plain and simple.

I will admit to slight hyperbole on my part on comparing the rifle LE hunts to 'canned' hunts, it still is not good to have hunts that have 9 out of 10 hunters killing with an average of less than five days spent hunting. The DWR could issue more tags w/o hurting quality by moving the rifle hunt and giving a higher percentage of the tags to primitive hunters.

I like bowhunts suggestion, I am willing to meet anytime anywhere and try and calmly work out some good ideas. Set it up and I'll be there.

PRO
 
all bullshit aside ,, Pro you should be a politician, " Republican" of course, you twist and turn every comment to suit your needs.. some funny chit.. Oh yeah, I would have lunch with ya,, you buy.
 
I also think we are killing too many cows. And I have to admit, although it is very painful, that I agree with pro. We either have to kill more cows or more bulls, it's just a matter of controling the population.

Pro I do see one problem with your suggestion on having the bowhunt moved into the rut. A lot of guys/gals want the elk rut experience on their hunt and this is why the rifle is a huge draw. If the DWR moved the bow hunt into the rut, many people, myself included, would start putting in for the archery tags because of the awesome rut experience. I can guarantee that the odds of drawing an archery permit would go up significantly. Even with more permits, I believe the amount of time it takes to draw an archery permit would not change much from what it is today (just my opinion).

I have a 15 year old son with 2 elk points and yes I would love for him to get the opportunity to hunt LE elk in this state eventually. With the current management plan he may not get a tag for 20 or more years. I don't see how anyone wouldn't see this as a problem. We need the youth to get excited about this great sport and these awesome animals so we can continue to grow the sport of hunting. I also understand bobcats side of this matter. He has been putting in for many years without drawing a permit. The cat wants the same quality that others before him have enjoyed, I don't blame him. Someone earlier mentioned that they would be for a slow and slight increase in the # of bull tags (probably that dumb*** albubba), this sounds reasonable to me. Something needs to be done, lets find a viable solution for most.
 
Rutn,
Get it right.
I'm not a dumb@$$, just a jack@$$.

I am all for more opportunity, as long as the quality remains high. Now quality to me means a great shot at a 320-350 class animal. I don't want to turn this state into Colorado. It is sad that most think it expected to shoot a 370+ bull if you draw a tag.
That should be a rare occurance, not the norm.
I would support any changes that is fair for all hunters. Not just a few.
 
I believe A good solution would be to extend all the Limited Entry Hunts out 5 to 7 days. Example the Archery elk started on Aug 23 thru Sept 14, change it to Aug 30 thru Sept 21 same amount of days just gets into the rut a little more. That way Archery,Rifle and muzzle should get a good piece of the rut. I had a limited entry archery tag this year and was luckey enough to kill a exceptional bull, but it was tough, which is ok it should be. But this would give everybody a better chance and a good chance of really experiancing the rut first hand. Another problem the Achery hunters face is that last week when it is usally the best the Rifle hunters are moving in and getting ready for there hunt scouting and calling in to every canyon trying to locate as many bulls as they can before the Sat. opening. It just makes for alot more pressure. every body waits a long time to draw a tag people need to respect that. Just some thoughts.
 
Well although i have refrained from this post because i "simply cant back up what i say with facts", here's my .02 on what i DO know.

If anyone on here has ever been up on the Deseret, you'll know what i'm talking about.
Deseret has one of the largest and oldest "controlled" herds in this state.
Deseret manages their huge elk herd not for "quality" per say, but for "quantity" and for the "elk hunt experience of a lifetime".
They manage that herd for a 1to1 bull/cow ratio.
If you kill a bull over 350", you have killed a monster on that ranch. there are a few that go in the 370 range, but 330 is "average" on that herd.
On a five day guided hunt, i'll show my clients well over 100 300-330 class bulls.
Now i'm not saying that's a bad thing necessarily, but for a herd that that tightly controlled and managed, not too mention 10-13 year old bulls....the fact is, those bulls just don't reach what some call "trophy class".
Be it genetics or management practices that keep the "high scores" down, i can't really say. But i can say they also wipe out around 100 cows every year too to keep those ratio's 1-1 and they simply don't grow true "monster" bulls.

A range can only manage so many animals to sustain optimum antler growth and healthy animals so they can reach their genetic potential.

I'm only an "armchair biologist" like many others on here, but i am also open to listening to your ideas and putting some thought into them. I think pro is on the right track, he's not talking about wiping out an entire heard form any LE units by wanting to up some tags, he's not that drastic or that dumb.
There are a lot of big bulls that make it through the hunting season that people didn't kill. You can see that by going onto the winter ranges and taking a peek.
Not to mention looking on the shed forum in the spring and seeing what is picked up.

Just my .02 :)




Skull Krazy
"No Bones About It"
 
This is the same arguement that has been going for years.

Those who think they are near their opportunity do NOT want anything to change, as they want a chance at the same quality we have seen recently... While those whose chances are more modest, are aching for change as they don't realistically see themselves drawing a permit given the current drawing system and the quality of the herd in 2007.

This arguement can be extended: If you are sitting at max-1 (or fewer) point because you were not eligible to apply when the point system started, you are at a disadvantage. (Is this age discrimination?)

One rule that ought to be explored is where half of the tags are reserved for those with max points.

Everyone has a stake in the game, max point holders have had their names in the hat the longest, but now that some hunters have been waiting 12, some 13 and now some 14 years (with points)should those with the max have such an advantage? The only ones who are assured drawing a tag are the ones that got in at the beginning. If you missed one year, your chances of drawing soon shrink dramatically, and the odds get worse the later you started.

I have no stake as I was lucky to have a tag in 2005. (and drew with less than the max)

It sounded reasonable when max points were in the 5, 6 or 7 range, but now that there are tens of thousands of applicants, unless you were old enough to put in in the early years, your realistic odds are--and will remain--pretty slim. I am thinking of my kids... my son who is 22 has been in every year since he was 14 and his chances are getting smaller and smaller as the applicant pool grows.

Anyone who, like me, think they want a second (or third) bite at the apple, should start saving their pennies to buy that CWMU permit because the way things are going--there may be fewer hunters overall--but all hunters seem to be in the draws for UTAH LE elk. Problem is, permit prices are going up faster than I can save. :-(

No solution will make everyone happy. Any solution that will reduce odds for max point holders will be extremely unpopular with them... not unlike social security benefits, the mentality is "go ahead and change things AFTER I have mine."


This whole debate is the very reason why hunting will become more and more of a rich man's game. With the odds for public tags so unfavorable, those who chose not to play that game must be willing to pay the going rate -- it boils down to ECON 101 -- When demand exceeds supply, PRICES RISE.

Apologies for offering no solutions... It will take more than a debate on an internet BB to solve this one.
 
Ok, I come out of "I give" status for one more post:

Those last 3 post are very good and constructive, thanks guys.

I really do not care if we give more archery tags, or change the dates of the archery hunt. I just want my kids to have a chance some day, and I want the quality to stay high. Maybe we cannot have both.

Keep in mind I did not say: I want my kids to Kill A Big One Some Day. I said: I want them to have a chance.

I really would like a few of us to get together and discuss this.
 
I am not a Utah Resident, but lived in Utah for several years, and experienced firsthand the difficulty of drawing a LE tag within the state. However, I was one of the lucky ones to draw a tag several years back, without max points, and was able to harvest an exceptional bull, on what would be considered to be a premium unit within the state. The bull, to this day, would still be considered an exceptional bull, even though it does not hit the 400" mark.

Having provided that background, I've felt for several years, that Utah needed to be providing more benefits and priorities to those that hunt with primitive weapons.

Additionally, I've felt that the "fair chase" is not really as fair as it could be, given the fact we allow weapons to be carried during the rut, that perhaps conflict with rutting patterns, and allow a significant number of bulls to be harvested at their most vulnerable point during the year, shy of harvesting on winter grounds..... Additionally, my experience provided me with an opportunity at two 360 - 370 class bulls, and several 330+ class bulls, during the two days (shorter than five) that I "hunted".

To say that it is ludicrous to allow folks within Utah to hunt bulls with a rifle during the prime duration of the rut, is an understatement. It does not create an equittable balance between the hunter and the hunted. Having said that, my hunting party almost killed ourselves to get into and out of the area that we ultimately killed the bull that I shot in.... These hunts are not necessarily easy, but I would go to the extent to say that they are ONLY not easy, if a person is borderline greedy, and is not willing to shoot a 350 - 370 class bull, which was the position that I was in at that time. Let me caveat that statement by stating that the unit that I was hunting would have been an easy hunt, which is not to state that all LE units within Utah are that way. In the end, I am stating that I was greedy, which was the reason that I held out. The hunt could have been simple, short, and sweet, if I would have been willing to shoot one of a couple of 360 - 370 class bulls on opening morning!

As a result of my earlier statement regarding hunters that use primitive weapons, etc., I believe that Utah needs to strongly consider hunt date modifications. The LE rifle hunt needs to be moved out toward the latter part of September, and provide an increased number of permits for primitive hunters during the middle of September. I agree with the statement that more permits can equal to the same number of kills, if the "Any Weapon" hunt is removed from the prime portion of the rut. This would equate to a lower success rate during the "Any Weapon" hunt, which has an extremely high percentage of folks carrying rifles. More archery tags would need to be issued, and perhaps a consistent or slightly increased number of ML tags, during the period that the "Any Weapon" hunt was previously taking place. Perhaps, shorter seasons, during the month of September would accomodate all weapon preferences. Just another thought!

Anyway, this is just my $.02!!

Weatherby
 
I can't let an excellent post like Weatherby's go w/o a kudos!

My 'ideal' season dates if in place in 2007 would as follows:
Archery: September 1-21
Muzzy: September 25-October 5
Any-weapon October 10-19

This would reduce pressure on the bulls during the peak breeding season, and the hunters in the field at that time would be primitive weapon hunters. This WOULD lower success rates, increase the number of cows bred during the first estrus cycle which means higher calf survival percentages, AND ALLOW FOR MORE TAGS TO BE ISSUED w/o hurting 'quality' one bit! Now make the tag allotments 50/30/20 as opposed to 60/25/15 and even MORE tags can be issued w/o affecting quality.

I think having 8-10 LE units be managed as 'premium' units with 'rut' hunts and higher bull/cow ratios and higher success rates than the other 18-20 LE units. That way those who really want a 'rut' hunt can have it, they just will have to wait longer due to the more restricted tag allotments.

I have other 'ideas' on how to help this, but I will hold off on bringing them up here at this time, I would hate to see some of you go into vapor-lock!

PRO
 
OK, I will bita again. I cannot disagree with the logic of the dates. I would not want them changed, but I do see the logic. I still say Antler1 has it right, success rates are not going to drop.

One thing to remember guys, is that the bulk of the people who hunt use a rifle. It is just a FACT pro. To take from the any weapon pool to satisfy your own needs is a bad tag split. I know that you want better odds, but in Utah it is a waiting game with so many applicants.

The other thing that gets me is calling an in-line muzz and a modern day bow and arrow a primitive weapon? Sure, they do not have the reach and accuracy of a rifle, but come on, can you honestly call a Matthews bow primitive? I bet you could bring back Sitting Bull to life and hand him a Hoyt and he would have no clue what the hell it even was. Move all weapons from the rut except a true bow and arrow and give those guys the rut. Yup, long bow with wood arrows or flintlock.

I know, you are going to tell me to use a 30-06 with open sights. I would if I was trying to convince everyone I did not kill anything and how I was out to do it the hard way-the Barta way! I am glad I am done with elk. Does anyone know of a way I can weasel myself in to get a Henry deer tag in the next 2 years? It is not fair that I do not have any points. I think it is discrimination or something? I want to hunt Henry deer every 5 years. Utah cannot manage deer right because there is no reason they cannot give out at least 1000 tags a year on the Henry Mountains........
 
Well the tone is better from ALL sides Ty, that is a start. I want to clarify a few things for you. I use the term 'primitive' because that is how these weapons are defined in the proclamation. FYI, there are a few muzzy folks that will take exception with you saying an in-lline is less primitive than a flint-lock since the first in-line dates back atleast as far back in time.

I am NOT pushing this so I can draw every five years. you know which LE unit I apply for, it is one of the 8-10 'premium' units in 'my' plan, therefore my odds of drawing would not change much. That and I will draw this tag within the next two years, well after any 'benefits' of 'my' plan would kick in.

I am still a little confused as to why Utah is so much different than EVERY other state in the west. Please help clarify for me why success rates are MUCH lower in EVERY other state, but would remain high ONLY in Utah. Then explain why EVERY other state issues archery tags in September, most for the ENTIRE month, yet Utah should not. What makes Utah so unique? Are our hunters smarter, or are our elk dumber? It must be one or the other, how else can you explain Utah defying EVERY other western state's experiences with non-rut rifle hunts. Before someone points out the late-rifle hunts success rates, I can nix that as an example of the SR staying high real easy. The late-rifle hunt is too LATE. Many bulls are on winter ranges by then, which is normally open areas and bulls are back in bachelor herds, making them vulnerable. Put it in October after the bulls have been hunted with the 'primitive' weapons and after the more vocal part of the rut is over, but before they migrate to winter ranges and the SR's WILL decrease.

PRO
 
Kudos ktc, excellent post!

Pro,
Here are my ideal hunting dates.
8/23 to 8-31 General Archery Deer and Elk.
9/1 to 9/9 General Muzzle loader Deer.
L.E Archery Elk 9/10 to 9/21
L.E Muzzle loader Elk 9/22 to 9/28
Any Weapon 9/29 to 10/5

The tag split would be Archery 25%, Muzz. 25%, Rifle only 25% and Premium 25%.

I also have another idea. If yours, mine or anyone else's kid thinks their future in hunting depends on their ability to draw a L.E tag, take them out and buy them some golf clubs.
 
Pro, et al,

I haven't posted in a long long time. I do however visit often and read often. Started in on this one just for a kick and now it has struck a cord that I know is always on the mind of most hunters here in Utah. I grew up hunting with my dad and my family. I grew to love it. There are so many things that make this sport great. The outdoors, the lessons, the time spent with loved ones away from the TV and cell phones, seeing and appreciating the beautiful animals and nature. Yes, I am also after my dream elk and deer just like the rest of you. The larger concern on my mind falls to my 2 boys. I see where hunting is headed. I want to pass on the tradition for many of the reasons I stated above. The problem is that with all of the many things that our children can do these days it is hard to get them interested in something that they have no chance at being successful. Yes I can take them and enjoy the outdoors at any time, but just like myself once they start hunting they will want to have opportunities to actually HUNT!!! I'm not siding with anyone on this because I wish I had the answer or magic bullet to fix it all. I do know that it is a problem that isn't going away and is getting worse every year. There has to be a better way to give opportunity for all and still keep the opportunity to also get that animal of a lifetime. I do like the idea of increasing tags on many of the LE units and keeping some of the major producers of the "large bulls" at a minimum. Problem is I just don't really know what will work. I do go to RAC meetings and I try my best to get involved. I would do anything to make sure that my children and their children don't fall to the same fate that my brothers and my father did, and that is to just lose interest all together.

Inmysights
 
>Kudos ktc, excellent post!
>
>Pro,
>Here are my ideal hunting dates.
>
>8/23 to 8-31 General Archery Deer
>and Elk.
>9/1 to 9/9 General Muzzle loader
>Deer.
>L.E Archery Elk 9/10 to 9/21
>
>L.E Muzzle loader Elk 9/22 to
>9/28
>Any Weapon 9/29 to 10/5
>
>The tag split would be Archery
>25%, Muzz. 25%, Rifle only
>25% and Premium 25%.
>
>I also have another idea. If
>yours, mine or anyone else's
>kid thinks their future in
>hunting depends on their ability
>to draw a L.E tag,
>take them out and buy
>them some golf clubs.

First, good post inmysights!

Antler1, a nine day general archery hunt for deer and elk? Why? Are the archers killing too many animals?

Where did I say a kid becoming a hunter is 100% dependant on their ability to draw a LE tag? I did NOT say any such thing. I merely pointed out, not as well as inmysights and others have, that there are many distractions for todays youth. When I was a teen, there were fewer distractions and MORE hunting opportunities. That is the issue, hunting opportunities. I am talking real ones, not a spike tag with 15% success rates, that will NOT hold many kids attention.

It truly bothers me that you have such a cavalier attitude to just turn them into golfers. That kind of attitude really will help the future of hunting won't it?(eye roll!)

PRO
 
I like the dates! I think this might conversation is actually getting nice! WTF! and people are giving GOOD ideas!!! I like it!!!

The sad thing is, I dont know if there is a perfect system or dates and if it will all actually happen.

And now I don agree with Ty......now that my elk hunt is done......I want to move to the front of the line on that Henries Deer Tag....KTC..we can go together! :)
 
Pro,
If your going to get this thing done the archers have to give something.

I get the idea you and I grew up in the same era. In that era there was no such thing as a L.E elk hunt and Damn few elk. I certainly have not lost interest in hunting and I have not drawn a L.E tag for any species. Our kids have more perks to get them to go hunting then anytime in state history. I don't see the future of hunting as doom and gloom as the rest of you.
(eye roll)
 
Yea Pouts, you want your bow hunt to be during the peak of the rut, but your not being selfish are you.

I400 sucks, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

People wait 15 to 20 years to draw a tag, whats wrong with a 90% success rate.
 
FLEH,

Sure, lets start an Initiative to issue more deer tags on the Henry Mountains.;-)

Antler1,

No kidding! Talk about spoiled rotten kids and instant gratification. When I was young if you could draw a Oquirrh tag you had THE tag to have. What was there total about 200-300 tags in the entire state? I got my hunting fix shooting spike elk, 2 point deer, and an occasional cow. Birds were lots of fun too. I never had to draw a thing. I would say kids have more chances to hunt now than ever before. Why on earth do they NEED to kill a mature buck/bull? They can hunt deer and elk every year. Maybe there is a way to better use the resource in elk, but please, the kid argument is not a good one.

I would say if you want a kid to lose interest in hunting have him whack a 350+ bull and a 200" muley before he is 16 years old. If a kid wants to hunt he will. If he wants to be a crackhead he will do that. UDWR is not responsible to raise our kids nor is it their job to keep them out of trouble.

Like I said, I have no interest in this argument. Have at it boys! I am not sure what to argue about now? Maybe I will head over to the deer forum and start some chit there?;-)
 
KTC,

I would disagree to an extent on your post. I don't want my kids to have the NEED to take a 350 class bull or a 200 inch muley by any means. I want them to have more than just a chance of drawing a tag at all. If you don't see that the numbers of hunters not only nationally or locally is dropping then you may need to take another look. I do agree that many children are in a world of instant gratification. The unfortunate part is that WE created it. That is exactly why I want my children to hunt. Is because it isn't shooting something and taking a picture. It is a journey with many great things that come from that journey. I don't know if you have children or not but I can tell you that when they are young they are very impressionable. I can teach them what is right and wrong. They may make some bad choices but I do have some influence over that. One lesson I do want them to learn is to appreciate the wildlife that we hunt and also that it is a HUNT...not a shoot. I want them to learn as I did how to watch the animals and learn their habits and then put that to use with either a bow or a rifle. That right there teaches many lessons that are not just for hunting but for LIFE!!!! The issues that I see on both sides are 1st the ones who have been putting in forever and are going to draw...leave it be...after I draw then do what you want because I'm done. I can understand that. I somewhat feel the same at times. 2nd is the group that wants to have the ability to hunt for a trophy animal more than just once in their life and actually have their kids be able to do the same. I also fall in line with this group. I would say that I fall in line more for the latter of the 2, mostly because I do have kids and I want them to enjoy what I have and more. The major point of that is that there are valid arguments on both sides but there can be a solution that addresses both. I don't believe the current system will do so in the future. Kind of like social security...I don't plan on it being there when I retire.

Inmysights
 
130 posts and the question ain't answered.....is it real?

Is it the Barry Bonds of elkdom?

Is it ranched on Vita-Gro?

Photo Doc or what?

Would it score like 500?

Whatever it is, it is definately a BFE.
 
KTC,

Sorry for being all serious to your post because I know that some of it was in jest. I will take pride in the one time I post in like 2 years and it is one of the longest threads in a while.... : )

Inmysights
 
O.K.!!!

WE'RE CHANGING THE DATES!!!

I SAY WE CHOP THE FEATHER FLIPPERS TO A 7 DAY HUNT!!!

RECURVES ONLY!!!

CEDAR ARROWS!!!

MOCCASINS IF YOU WANT???

BUFFALO BRIEFS IF YOU'D LIKE???

BUT WE ARE BANNING THE MATHEWS,BOW-TECHS,HOYTS & ETC!!!

HOW DO YOU LIKE THEM APPLES Pro???

469ff2b8110d7f4e.jpg


THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
Ok,

Here is my .02

I have been reading this post, even though it has conformed to not what was posted, however I have been thinking about everything that has been posted.

I moved from Utah around '92 until 2005. When I moved, killing a big elk in Utah was almost a dream and did not happen very often. My step-dad, whom was lucky to draw a tag once Utah implemented the selective draw areas, scouted and hunted for many days and was able to kill a nice 5x5 after about a week of hunting (First year that draw was implemented) He was so proud of that elk that he had it mounted and I am proud that he shot it. After may years of scouting after he shot his elk (He was scouting for friends) he realized that the elk he was able to harvest was not that big due to the elk he was seeing. However, since he had to wait for five years after he drew a tag, he knew that his 5x5 was never going to be replaced with another bigger elk, (Unless he paid for a better tag or went to another State, which was not an option). Now he is 73 and will never draw another tag in Utah again. He has been putting in for all those years that he could since he was eligible, but still has only 5 points.
Me being is step-son has been putting in since '99, but him and I have only minimum points since we got in kind of late.
For me I had to tell him this year, look dad, I want to put in by myself, to increase my chances at drawing a tag, since I hunt Archery and my dad can only hunt with a rifle due to his age. That was one of the most depressing moments of my life since I could no longer hunt with my dad if we drew a tag. (That is if we both had a tag, I am going out with him on the general rifle hunt for deer here in Utah)
My point here is this, when I lived in NM I could put in both my dad and myself and have a reasonable chance at drawing a tag. Some years we may not have drawn, but we would have been happy hunting whatever unit we may have drawn.
However, in Utah, my dad will never achieve his dream of hunting a dream bull again.

I will be lucky in a few years, (because I use Archery tackle), but I also realize that once I do, I will never be able to hunt Big Elk in Utah again, unless I suddenly come into a bunch of money that allows me to buy a permit (Which I would probably spen on an Alaska Moose hunt)

Also, Since both my dad and I were lucky enough to hunt both the Paunsaugant and Henry Mountains back in the '80,s when there was not much hunting pressure, we have had a few trophy's to add to our collection. Nothing that MMer's would say was trophy class, but meant a lot to both my dad and I.

Basically what I would want from Utah is this:

More focus on the deer herd
Less focus on the elk herd

and more opportunity for the basic "Joe Hunter" whom wants to have the opportunity to harvest a great bull (330 plus) more than once in a lifetime.
 
Inmysights,

Good read. I do see your opinion, I just disagree with a little part of it. I think hunting is great for kids and teaches them many life lessons. I am just saying these lessons can be learned as good if not better on an annual general deer and elk hunt. Like you mentioned this is a tough issue to settle. I think by waiting several years, I appreciate the LE hunt more than most, or at least as much as anyone could. I also have kids and me and my 12 year old daughter enjoyed a great antelope hunting trip to Wyoming this year.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-10-07 AT 09:31PM (MST)[p]I've been reading the comments on here for a long time and this is the first time I've been motivated to say anything. It seems to me pro is a little bit crass in his conveyance of his messages, but has very clear and good intentions, many of which make sense and are viable means of gaining hunter opportunity and maintaining objective for Utah's elk herds, specifically in LE units.

The notion that bess has come up with pertaining to bull to cow ratios and the "fact" (Maybe in his head) that they are this way because of cow harvest ist ridiculous. Utah's management objective statewide is 80,000 elk, which is the absolute maximum holding capacity that biologists have determined to be possible STATEWIDE. We are about 12k elk short of that and any increase in elk numbers will be detrimental to already struggling deer herds.

MOST LE units are at or near objective for the number of elk they can sustain. If the DWR was able to manage to the age objective (Shame on the elk committee and special interest/conservation groups.) we would be giving out less cow tags and more bull tags without much change in harvest quality.

I'm not sure how slow you would have to talk for desertbeagle500 (That's not a typo) to get these simple FACTS through his obviously thick skull, nor am I sure why one would waste their breath trying to explain it to him.

I don't agree with everything pro says, but he is taking a lot of ridicule for being the one to stand up and do something about it instead of acting and sounding like a 14 year old girl bitching about not having anything to wear but being to ##### lazy to do some god damn laundry!

Have a nice day.

T
 
Yip, Yip Yip....WTF. The pros to shooting elk in the rut with a rifle is that the lucky tag holders take most of the top of the class out and leave the younger guys to grow, thus increased age class & more big bulls each yr. Or are stats just for idiots?
 
>Yip, Yip Yip....WTF. The pros
>to shooting elk in the
>rut with a rifle is
>that the lucky tag holders
>take most of the top
>of the class out and
>leave the younger guys to
>grow, thus increased age class
>& more big bulls each
>yr. Or are stats
>just for idiots?

And you can do the same thing and allow more opportunity by moving toothless rifle idiots such as desertbeagle, out of the rut and making them HUNT instead of driving around in his 71 Chev with a six pack of beer looking for the biggest bull within 5oo yards of the road.
 
>Not trying to throw anyone around,
>just stating a well thought
>out observation.
>
>That's funny, you throwing out insults
>such as those. Years of
>inbreeding at it's finest.

Darwin...Don't expect to get any respect around here if you start out posting like this. You're gonna be unpopular in a hurry. I have no idea if you made a good point or not because all I can see now is someone slinging insults. That's called a TROLL. Trolls suck and aren't welcome. There is just no need for insults. Pro and Bobcat both have good points and it's a good discussion. Bobcat isn't even insulting PRO...they're just hashing out a difference of opinion and haven't resorted to jr. high insults like you feel the need to. GO away if you're going to be like this.
 
KTC,

I hope you see this aside from the unfortunate comments below...but I would agree with you completely. I still enjoy the general hunts and have already taken my oldest boy with me in the field. He isn't old enough to hunt by a long shot, but it instantly showed my why my dad packed my whiny little butt up in the truck and hauled me all over the mountains when he could have had much more opportunity without me. I loved every minute of it. I would say that I am being a little selfish in that I do want my boys to be able to have an opportunity to harvest a nice animal more than once. My days of hunting for me are soon to be over...because if I were in the field and my boys were with me and a trophy stepped out....nothing would make me more proud than to see one of them get it. I'm sure that you felt the same with your daughter. There is a great sense of accomplishment in realizing that goal. I would have to say that we all are a little selfish with our desires....you have to be or it wouldn't be important.

Inmysights
 
Darwin,

Quote
"And you can do the same thing and allow more opportunity by moving toothless rifle idiots such as desertbeagle, out of the rut and making them HUNT instead of driving around in his 71 Chev with a six pack of beer looking for the biggest bull within 5oo yards of the road."


So anyone who hunts within 500 yards of the road is a toothless rifle idiot? I guess I fall into that category this year.
And I really take exception to that comment! Not everyone is as healthy and able as you seem to imply that you are. Most people who only have the ability to hunt near the roads, would gladly trade their physical disabilities with you so that they were able to get "more than 500 yards off of the road". That way maybe you would understand the frustration of not being able to get out and go!
That being said, guess this idiot needs to go find a good dentist and see about getting some teeth!!

ktc, I know where you are coming from with your daughter and her successful hunt. It is a great feeling when your kids can follow and enjoy doing what their father does. And a daughter is no different than a son. In fact, I feel more satisfaction when one of my daughters is successful, knowing that the perception is that girls can't do what boys can. And that is a perception! They may not have the physical capabilities, but mentally, they are tougher and more mature than boys their own age. Keep up the good work with yours!

As far as the rifle hunt being during the rut, sure it would reduce the harvest rate to move the rifle hunters out of the rut, but that is part of the draw and intrigue of this hunt. It just wouldn't be the same to not have the bulls screaming and carrying on while you are out hunting. That experience is something you just don't find on most of the other hunts. That is the reason that to me it is worth spending years and years applying for and waiting for that once in a lifetime opportunity. I think that if a change is made, there still should be a good number of units left as is, just for those who want that experience, and are willing to wait and take the chance of never even drawing a permit. Take the other handful of units, and try the changes and see how they work, and how much more opportunity you can create. The people who would be happy with just hunting a smaller bull, with a lot less excitement, will still be happy. If a change is made, it needs to be done as a controlled experiment so that if it doesn't appear to be working, it can be adjusted quickly, instead of just letting the unit go to hell.. I think there can be adjustments to make more people happy, and more opportunity, but it needs to be done very carefully. That way those who have a lot of points built up, will have that amazing experience us who have drawn were lucky enough to have, and those who just want to hunt anything, can still have their opportunity also..

my $. 02
 
Why jump om darwin for acting just like bobcat? Does he need 5 million posts before he can spout off rants w/o any thought involved? WTF?

ktc and others who say kids don't need to kill 350+ bulls. I NEVER said they did. What I said was that a kid that is 10 years old will in all likelyhood will NEVER in his LIFETIME draw a LE elk tag, that has NOTHING to do with a youth killing a 350+ bull.

Boobcat and others say archers should have to 'give' soemthing up if the rifle guys have to. Is this second grade? This not about who gives what up and who gives the most up. This is about what is best for BOTH the elk and the hunters(ALL of them), not just a select few.

Bessy seems to be math challenged, he bemoans any mention of tag increases on a unit like the San Juan, yet he wails about the number of cow tags issued being so high. WTF? The unit can sustain so many elk, if you only kill a small number of bulls, fewer than the number recruited into the herd each year, you MUST kill cows to keep the population numbers in check. If you have 600 cows, 400 bulls, and 300 calves after the hunts are over, that means the next year there will be approx. 300 NEW elk recruited into the herd, yet you are only killing around 60 bulls. In order to keep the herd numbers the same you still need to kill 240 elk, which because of people with blinders on like bessy, they will be COWS. Now the bull/cow ratio is even worse than the year before. Eventually the ratio gets to a breaking point and the QUALITY and quanity start to DECLINE. That is what MANY LE units in Utah are headed for. If you don't believe me, ask ANY wildlife biologist and see what they say. Now, who is looking out for the future, and who is looking out for themselves? Hmmmmm........

PRO
 
good hell DARWIN! have you ever even been on a hunt? every elk hunter that draws a LE hunt has put in long enough and is serious enough that they hunt like crazy and search for their dream bull. its the people that you refer too as "toothless" and something about a chevy and beer, that are the 10% that don't capitalize on a bull. do you have enough monkey but guy? your cheeks are chapped....







the only eagle with enough power and speed to kill and gut you with one shot
 
>Why jump om darwin for acting
>just like bobcat? Does he
>need 5 million posts before
>he can spout off rants
>w/o any thought involved? WTF?
>
You don't see the nuked posts, PRO. Not good stuff. It was nothing Bobcat would post.
>
PRO is on the right track though guys.

"The unit can sustain so many elk, if you only kill a small number of bulls, fewer than the number recruited into the herd each year, you MUST kill cows to keep the population numbers in check. If you don't believe me, ask ANY wildlife biologist and see what they say."

Any biologist will tell you that it's healthy to take a few cows out of the herd every year. There are several biologists who post here and they could definitely shed some light on the subject, but they're NOT going to engage in this type of a discussion.
 
TripleK wrote: "Any biologist will tell you that it's healthy to take a few cows out of the herd every year."

A 'few' is fine, in fact I support killing a certain number of cows every year, but that is NOT what is happening. I have talked with DOZENS of biologists in the last year from Utah and surrounding states. Believe what I report they told me or not, it doesn't change the FACTS. The Facts are, when you kill many more cows than bulls, the bull/cow ratios WILL/DO get out of a healthy balance, which does not bode well for the herd in the long run.

As for the posts that got nuked, by darwin, you are correct I missed them due to a meeting related to alot of what this thread is talking about. However, how many posts has bobcat had 'nuked' in the last month alone, hell on this thread for that matter? I know of atleast two. Hold all to the same standard, don't give your buddy bobcat a 'free' pass. He is an adult, let him be held to the same rules. I get blasted for comments I make,, even when they are supported with FACTS and evidence. Bessy gets a free pass from the same people even though he has little/no FACTS to support his rants. Hence my assertion of the double standard. I don't care either way, I do not know anything about this darwin fellar, I suspect you hit it dead on about the troll comment, so ignore his/her posts.

PRO
 
PRO,

Any idea what the actual effect on avg drawing years it would take based on your %'s and increase in tags with a LE elk tag. I know the variables are large, but what are we talking max points going from....+15yrs to what?? The numbers are out there....just need to put pencil to paper and figure it out.

I'm one of those guys that will have to start saving $$ to get a chance at a OIL elk hunt, since I just pulled my deer tag this year and have only 2 elk point....
 
gdog, that is hard to answer for many reasons, one is it would depend on how many tags they would issue, and how many units would be 'premium' and how many would be LE. Then you would have to factor in the popularity of each draw, I am not sure how you could calculate that. The one thing I know for sure is, if you increase the number of tags, your odds have to be atleast as good as now, I can't imagine a scenerio where your odds wouldn't increase by a fair percentage. Remember, in 2007 there were 50,000 unsuccessful applicants, regardless of what plan is implemented, it will take quite a while to get them all thru, plus all the new applicants coming into the mix each year. I don't think there is a plan that will keep quality high and allow people to draw every 5 years as some have implied statewide. I do see how we could have MANY units that take less than 8 points to draw a rifle tag, but the premium units will only require more points as time moves on. That is okay, as long as there are viable options for those who are willing to apply for a 'lesser' unit, they shouldn't have to wait 20+ years to draw a tag in order to shoot a 330 class bull, that is NONSENSICAL!

PRO
 
I'm with ya gdog, but you are one year ahead of me on elk points, i only have one. But on a good note...i have 11 for deer!!
I hope i'll still be able to get around when i'm 65 to kill my bull :)

I'm all in favor of issuing a few more tags on some of the LE elk units as long as the long term affect is still good (and i have no doubts that it will be).
My concern is not necessarily a selfish one, i'd really like to see my son get at least TWO chances at nice bulls in this state in his lifetime.

We'd all love nothing more that to kill giant bulls over that 380" mark, but i'd love to see my son get a couple 350's under his belt. And anyone who knows anything about elk hunting, a 350" bull is a dang nice bull and should be in ANYONE's book!

There has got to be a fine line drawn between having the best bulls on the planet here in Utah, and having a good, acceptable chance at drawing a tag for one or two of them.
I'm not sure what the answer to this is....obviously, but if we can all work together and come up with something acceptable by all, this world will be a better place.





Skull Krazy
"No Bones About It"
 
Perfect post pro, couldn't have said it better myself!
I like the idea of having "premium elk" LE's and the others as just "LE's"....very similar to how the deer units are now.

This will give a person better odds at drawing a "good bull" tag, versus a basically "once in a lifetime" like they are now.
And the people who want the "premium elk" will just have to wait and or get lucky, just like drawing a Henry's deer tag now.





Skull Krazy
"No Bones About It"
 
Pro..I expected the response to be as such. The outcome to changes as you've suggested really don't impact the overall drawing odds significantly. As you stated the 50k unsuccessful applicants and the number of points they are carrying basically has the system in a bind that will not be undone unless wholesale changes are made to the drawing system...and thats just not going to happen.

I'm all for keeping a striving elk herd here in UT, even though truth be told, I'll more then likely never get the change to take aim at a monster on one of the premium LE elk units. It was like my deer points, I had to settle for the Book Cliffs, since the odds of pulling a Henry's tag in my lifetime were pretty damn slim to basically none. Did I have a good hunt..you bet, but it wasn't the Henrys.

You can manipulate the season by a week or two to sway the success rate in order to increase tags, but in the overall scheme it's not going to make a dent in most peoples chances to get the opportunity to hunt an LE unit.

I hear of more and more people bailing out the draws due to the drawing odds. Some say great....that betters my chances, but don't think the continued reduction in application revenue/sales won't get passed along sooner or later. Again, those with close to max points...great, I'll pay more since I'm so close.

I really think we are so far down the road and so many people vested into the points system, that any significant changes are very unlikely to result in increased odds for the masses.
 
I usually stay out of the soap opera dramatics that frequently occur in these forums, but I really can't help myself this time.

swbuckmaster's comment...

"You guys kill me about ranch hunts. What the heck do you think a premium Le rifle tag is. It is just as easy just drive around and shoot out your truck window with your high power rifle. I would be to have either!"

"sigh"...that has to be one of the most unintelligent, random, stupid comments I have ever seen posted here at MM. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but somethings are just better left unsaid. I have a hard time dealing with the fact that people like this are included in our representation as sportsmen.

BowHuntr
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-11-07 AT 12:19PM (MST)[p]swbukmaster is one of the more dedicated sportsmen that I know. He put out his opinion and that is what it is....his opinion. I dont care one way or the other about ranch hunters. But I agree that our current LE system is way out of wack. I'm not sure how to fix it but it needs something. I guess that people can only have and share opinions on subjects that you feel are appropriate. Heaven forbid someone says something that you dont agree with and should be excluded from your version of representative sportsman.....give me a break.
 
BowHuntr, have you ever heard of a thing called sarcasism? Or perhaps hyperbole, which is intended to not be taken as 100% dead on, put designed to get a rise out of people who take themselves a little too serious? Got a rise out of you didn't it? Seems like he accomplished exactly what he wanted to. It also generated a lot of good thought and ideas on multiple subjects in this thread. Oh the horror this is to the sporting world.

PRO
 
Bowhuntr
I was exaggerating when I said shoot out of the window. I know you have to stand off the side of the road 600 feet. Still is a turkey shoot on the LE Units. Pro proves it every year on the unit he guides.
The only other type of hunting that has that high of success are ranch hunts.
 
PRO "proves it every year?" Pro, would you please post up these turkey shoot bulls you guide? You must be damn good because I sure cannot find a free easy one on Dutton.

swb, your comments blow.

This must be second gradebecause I see no way that you can juice up the bowhunt perks and take away from everyone else. The draw odds suck because people want these monster bulls. If you leave a few premium units and make the rest a lesser unit, you are only going to get a Henry deer situataion where the draw odds for these units really suck because people are not going to apply for something less.

Why not change the easy fix first. Get rid of credit applications, put the money up front, get rid of turning your tag back and getting a point, and for God's sake do away with point averaging. All party applications go in with the least amount of points. I would start there and see what that gets first.
 
ktc wrote: "Why not change the easy fix first. Get rid of credit applications, put the money up front, get rid of turning your tag back and getting a point, and for God's sake do away with point averaging. All party applications go in with the least amount of points. I would start there and see what that gets first."

There is no such thing as an "easy fix". You say to make people pay up front, how would this solve anything other than force "average joes" from applying? How does making it a 'rich man's sport' help ANYTHING?

I agree with getting rid of turning your tag back in and gettiing a point. I am willing to do my part to help stop this.

How would getting rid of party applications help anything? The reason I don't think these suggestions are an "easy fix", is because it fixes NOTHING. Everything you proposed addresses ways to lower the number of applicants, but does NOTHING to address the real problems, NOTHING. Getting rid of 'party applicantions' would accomplish what exactly? It MAY increase someone with more points oddds of drawing, but it WOULD lower the odds of drawing for those with fewer points. If that is the desired outcome, why not propose going to a preference point system which ensures only those with max points draw? That would be much "easier". The other items you propose would be opposed by many, me included, as I don't see them as part of an "easy fix". I see them as nothing more than a band-aid that does nothing to address the core issues we are discussing.

You also said: "This must be second gradebecause I see no way that you can juice up the bowhunt perks and take away from everyone else."

How second grade is it to say, "if archers get perks we should too"? Using that 'logic', I say, "rifle hunters shouldn't be able to hunt during a season where they enjoy 90% success rates unless archers get to hunt under conditions to get the SAME success rates." While absurd, it shows the flaws of your 'logic'. I see 90% success rates as a "perk", that I as an archer don't get to have, how UNFAIR! The whole point isn't "punishing" rifle hunters, it is to give MORE hunters(ALL HUNTERS, not just archers) the opportunity to hunt mature bulls in Utah where big bulls are available with 'reasonable' success rates.

Some have claimed moving the rifle hunt out of the rut will do nothing to the success rates, yet they have NOTHING to back up such claims. I can point out the general any-bull areas as an example of EVIDENCE that having the rifle hunt in October instead of September does LOWER success rates. The success rates for the rifle any-bull areas is usually between 12-20%, the youth(kids with little hunting experience) enjoy success rates double and in some cases triple that by hunting during September. Youth hunters enjoying double/triple the success rates, how can this be? Could hunting in the rut have ANYTHING to do with this? Hmmm, I wonder......

PRO
 
http://www.wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggame/pdf/06_le_stats/elk.pdf

Pro, there's the link with the proof one more time for you.
The success rate for the late hunt is 85%. You say it will be less in October. I say it won't, I was on the mountain on Monday and the bulls are still pushing cows and rutting. Using general season success rates as an example for L.E unit is bogus.


http://www.wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggame/pdf/07_stats/08.pdf

Here's the other link for you. We already have units with good odds for lesser bulls. Look at archery South Slope Diamond Mountain. It only took 3 Pt's to draw a bonus tag. That should tell you that most are not interested in lesser units and your proposal will clog the better units odds even more.

I like the system we have with slow gradual increases like they are doing.

I know your intentions are good. If it passed it could help my 6 year olds chances to draw some day since his weapon of choice is a bow. I just don't like your proposal. We could go back and forth on this forever and I doubt you will ever change my mind so I'm done with this one.
 
Antler1, while I respect your posts, I disagree with it.

1)You said, " Using general season success rates as an example for L.E unit is bogus.", yet you give referennce to the South Slope Diamond Mountain archery as "proof". The SSDM is little more than an any-bull area, as proven by the fact "45" people applied for "19" tags. Not exactly a "high demand" tag, and for good reason. You "cherry-picked" arguably the 'worst' LE unit and use it as "proof", come on now.

2)You refer to the late season having 85% success rates, as I already pointed out, the late rifle is TOO LATE, the bulls are on winter range and grouped up in bachelor herds by then on most units. Move in to when the rut is winding down/over and the bulls haven't moved to the open winter range areas and haven't bunched back up and the success rates WILL go down. Certainly the first year or two the success rates will stay somewhat high, but like any other hunt(out of the rut) the animals adjust to when/where the pressure comes from.

3)You and others have turned this into an archery vs rifle issue. It is NOT for me. It is about how can we issue more tags w/o hurting quality and give more hunters a chance at a quality tag, it is that simply and goes no deeper than that. I dare say the 'silent' majority are/would be happy with a good chance of getting a 320-350 class bull. It is the 'vocal' MINORITY that oppose change and want the DWR to manage strictly for antlers. Instead of managing for BOTH antlers and opportunity on MOST units, while leaving 8-10 premium units for those who are 'willing' to wait for many years at that rut hunt where success rates are extremely high and the odds of harvesting a 370+ bull are good, the DWR is 'forced' to manage ALL 28 units for the 'vocal' minorities wishes.

I am NOT trying to convince those who are not unhappy with the current system, I am trying to show those who are jilted, upset, ready to quit, a possible option, that WILL work if implemented.

PRO

3)
 
You are right PRO. You are always right. I just reset my message because I am not going round and round with you. Obviously you like using Grandma's points or whoever it may be. So that application FUBAR means nothing. You want Average Joe to get a 10% increase in opportunity get rid of conservation tags. Oh, you supposedly guide these wonderful men so don't do that.
 
>You are right PRO. You are
>always right. I just reset
>my message because I am
>not going round and round
>with you. Obviously you like
>using Grandma's points or whoever
>it may be. So that
>application FUBAR means nothing. You
>want Average Joe to get
>a 10% increase in opportunity
>get rid of conservation tags.
>Oh, you supposedly guide these
>wonderful men so don't do
>that.

ktc, I know you are smarter than that. I clearly stated I am all for putting a stop to turning tags back in, which is what I assume you mean with "using Grandma's points". I also assume you are NOT implying that I use "Grandma", because I think you know better than that.

Getting rid of conservation tags will NOT increase opportunity by "10%". The max percentage that conservation tags can be is 7 tags. If you put 7 tags back in the pool for the Manti unit that is nowhere NEAR a 10% increase. Fuzzy math, compounded by the near-sightedness of such a "solution". It would reduce money raised/spent on habitat which would lead to fewer tags issued, AND the number of tags put back in the pool would result in a .03% increase in ones odds of drawing a tag, that is .03% not 3%. That equates to less than a drop in the points bucket.

ktc wrote: " Oh, you supposedly guide these wonderful men so don't do that."

Are you implying I don't guide these "wonderful men"? Or are you implying they are not "wonderful men" w/o ever meeting them? Or are you implying I am motivated by greed and that I am NOT motivated by simply wanting to see hunting enhanced/improved for the majority of hunters? Which is it? I am curious how you perceive me and what motivates me. This could be very telling of what kind of character YOU have as a person. I dare you to find a single person who has met me that believes I am motivated by greed and that I am merely looking out for ME. Do NOT question my character, and I will NOT question yours. If I am taking your words wrong, please clarify and I will gladly apologize.

PRO
 
>PRO- I've got a question for
>ya....
>
>Did you REALLY name your son
>Beau Hunter?

Yes maam, but we just call him Hunter, actually I leave the "t" off when I say his name. Why? Oh, his last name is Hansen if you care to know. He will only wear camo pj's to bed also. He can make elk/duck/goose/predator sounds with/without devices better than many of my hunting buddies as well. He will be three on Nov 30th.

PRO
 
>>PRO- I've got a question for
>>ya....
>>
>>Did you REALLY name your son
>>Beau Hunter?
>
>Yes maam, but we just call
>him Hunter, actually I leave
>the "t" off when I
>say his name. Why? Oh,
>his last name is Hansen
>if you care to know.
>He will only wear camo
>pj's to bed also. He
>can make elk/duck/goose/predator sounds with/without
>devices better than many of
>my hunting buddies as well.
>He will be three on
>Nov 30th.
>
>PRO

Awwww Cute about the cammo pjs! I already know your last name is Hansen, btw. But, you just call him Hunner? Hunter Hansen sounds fine, imo.

My 21 month old does what we call "the elk call" when he's mad. Take a toy away from him and he'll call in a whole herd. LOL
 
I will tell you what I mean. You stated before you guide for Mossback. I have never seen you listed on any credits for any bulls. Then you state my clients. Well, I presume you have your own guide business and your own clients.

My character and integrity has been questioned many times over by you and others. You will not draw a gimme rifle tag. It is a shoot and not a hunt. 90% success is ranch style hunting. So yes, you and your following have questioned my character, abilities, and ethics.

Also, you have been given lots of varying opinions on what should and should not be done. I have stated date modifications could help to make all happy. You have also been given facts that dates will not change success rates by much but you argue that it will. You claim archery has minimal impact. I say it has a big impact. You say rich guys make it better for us. I agree they help, but 10% or 7% or what the hell ever is a significant chunk of tags. So here is one way to increase opportunity. You say you like hearing options, but then you make it known that you are the one with the facts and your way is the right way and only way.

You want support in getting something done then quit railroading every idea that is not yours or supported by you. Better yet, the deer herd is broke, the elk herd does just fine. So I guess I could make an argument now that I should be able to hunt the Henry Mountains 2-3 times in my life and anything short of that is BS. I would make this claim if I was a fool. I would never suggest that nor am I entitled to think this way. I see the same argument for the elk herd.

Have at it boys. You want dead elk then go kill them. It does not affect me one way or another. I would suggest a slow and steady increase like recent years, but that does not give you what you are looking for is my only conclusion.

I knew better than get involved in this annual bitchfest.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-11-07 AT 06:14PM (MST)[p]TripleK, Thats funny about your boy! That reminds me, my stepdaughter went for a walk with a younger member of the family during elk season a couple of years ago, her mom and I went looking for them at dusk. From the top of a ridge her mom yelled for her "miiiiiCHELLLLLE" A bull answered with a bugle!!!! I heard them from lower on the ridge, laughed my butt off!

Sorry guys, carry on.......
 
Hey,90% percent success rate! How do I get in on this? I'm from Nevada. I'll use a pocket knife if I got to.
 
Pro!!!

YOU'RE THE GREEDIEST HUNTER I'VE EVER KNOWN!!!

MORE OPPORTUNITY FOR YOU IS MORE MONEY IN YOUR BACK POCKET!!!

GREED = MONEY!!!

ITS ALL ABOUT MONEY AIN'T IT Pro!!!

I'LL TELL YOU WHAT Pro!!!

JUST HUNT THE GENERAL UNITS!!!

TAKE A MILLION CLIENTS INTO THEM GENERAL UNITS!!!

AND LETS SEE JUST HOW DAMN MANY 380"+ BULLS YOU PULL OUT OF THE WOOD WORK!!!

WHAT DO THEY PAY FOR A PISSCUTTER Pro???

469ff2b8110d7f4e.jpg


THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
Pro!!!

YOU ACT LIKE ITS YOUR GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO START DESTROYING LE UNITS!!!

WELL IT AIN'T & I DON'T GIVE A #### WHO YOU GUIDE FOR!!!

NOT EVERY FRICKEN TARD CAN HUNT TROPHY BULLS IN UTAH EVERY FRICKEN YEAR!!!

DON'T TELL ME THERE HASN'T BEEN MORE OPPORTUNITY THE LAST FEW YEARS CUZZ THERE HAS BEEN!!!

WHERE WOULD SOMEBODY LIKE YOURSELF QUIT WHINING,BITTCHING & BAWLING FOR MORE OPPORTUNITY WHO THE HELL KNOWS???

WAKE TF UP!!!

469ff2b8110d7f4e.jpg


THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-11-07 AT 09:13PM (MST)[p]Bessy, your ramblings are getting worse by the post, how many have you had nuked on this thread alone anyways? Ouch!

You wrote: "WHERE WOULD SOMEBODY LIKE YOURSELF QUIT WHINING,BITTCHING & BAWLING FOR MORE OPPORTUNITY WHO THE HELL KNOWS???"

Why is it when someone sees where things can be tweaked and actually attempts to do something about it it is considered "WHINING,BITTCHING & BAWLING"? I am confused, I thought just typing in CAPS and swearing alot while doing NOTHING about ANYTHING was considered "WHINING,BITTCHING & BAWLING". What was I thinking?

PRO
 
ONE MORE THING Pro!!!

DON'T EVEN START YOUR ELK NUMBERS WITH ME!!!

I'LL HAVE TO SPLAIN TO YOU WHAT THE UDWR HAS DONE TO AN LE UNIT!!!

YES THEY HAVE THE GODS (BIOLOGISTS!!!) WORKING THIS UNIT!!!

WAS IT YOU Pro THAT SUGGESTED THE LATE DEPERDATION BULL HUNT ON AN LE UNIT???

WAFJ!!!

WAFJ!!!

WAFJ!!!

THEY KINDA DONE TO THIS UNIT WHAT YOU WANT TO DO TO OTHER UNITS!!!

I HOPE TF YOU DON'T GET YOUR GREEDY WAYS!!!

WHAT DO YOU CALL A LE UNIT THAT HAS BEEN SHOT NEARLY OUT Pro???

OH THE BIOLOGISTS MUST BE DOING A GREAT JOB!!!

WTF???

469ff2b8110d7f4e.jpg


THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
IT MUST BE BOTHERING YOU THAT YOU'VE ALERTED THE MODS AND GOT ME NUKED A COUOPLE OF TIMES!!!

BFD!!!

MAYBE IF YOU CRY LIKE A BABY AT THE RAC MEETINGS YOU'LL GET YOUR GREEDY WAYS Pro???

I'VE SEEN A COUPLE OF LE UNITS ####ED UP DUE TO PISS POOR MANAGEMENT & GREED!!!

WE DON'T NEED JACK-ASSES LIKE YOURSELF ADDING TO THE SCENE!!!



469ff2b8110d7f4e.jpg


THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
Quote: "IT MUST BE BOTHERING YOU THAT YOU'VE ALERTED THE MODS AND GOT ME NUKED A COUOPLE OF TIMES!!!"

I don't even know who any of the mods are. Why would I ask them to remove evidence of your brilliance? You are my best example of what is wrong with Utah's public education. Sorry, I couldn't resist. See, here is the difference, I can take your slams and insults w/o getting made, until you make it directed at me, the real me, not proutdoors. You on the other hand, feel a need to attack and insult rather than deal with facts.

Well I got a real scary FACT for you. I am being given a seat on the Elk Planning Committee, that is the committee that recommends new ideas and management proposals to the DWR and/or RAC boards. Sleep well little kitty kat! Oh, one more nightmare for you, I am most likely to get a seat on the Deer Management Committee than will be assembled the first of 2008 to draft a new management plan for the entire state! Stay away from the cat-nip little fella!

PRO
 

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