Utah elk Debate

R

rock5150

Guest
DonVathome (473 posts)
Dec-31-07, 12:32 PM (MST)
43. "RE: Utah elk. Have you done the math?"
proutdoors, I like those ideas A LOT. Get rifle out of rut, and issue more primitive tags, this is a win win, MORE GUYS hunting, less elk taken, rifle hunters complain when more tags are given to bowhunters but they seem to forget that means much less competition for tags for them, so they get to hunt more.

Pro
Please comment on the above statement. ????!!!!!!

I think you should put the pahvant on the list of opportunity units. I grow up in Joseph and want to hunt a 330 Bull there. The great plus, is that the mountain could be the best deer unit in the state, as you would know, spending the time you do up there. There are to many big elk and too much money made by OUR outfitter friends on that mountain. To not change it.

Would anyone like to react to my well thought out statement or comment on giving more opportunity. Rifle out of the rut? and more bow tags? And of course less Muzz tags cause who cares about the muzz hunters, there is only a couple of them any way, not like the vast congregation of bow hunters.

Being how there are so many women and kids that Cant or don't want TO BOW HUNT just about forgot old men ?o- and the able bodied people that just don't like to bow hunt.

Now every body else can have the opportunity and that has to be most of us right. Or at least the people that count!!!!???

I say more bow and muzz tags and get rid of the management hunt. But, how about giving the same number of tags!!!!!

Rock 5150
 
>DonVathome (473 posts)
>Dec-31-07, 12:32 PM (MST)
>43. "RE: Utah elk. Have you
>done the math?"
>proutdoors, I like those ideas A
>LOT. Get rifle out of
>rut, and issue more primitive
>tags, this is a win
>win, MORE GUYS hunting, less
>elk taken, rifle hunters complain
>when more tags are given
>to bowhunters but they seem
>to forget that means much
>less competition for tags for
>them, so they get to
>hunt more.
>

Am I the only one that gets tired of hearing this statement? "get the rifle hunt out of the rut and issue more primitive weapon hunts". I agree we need more opportunity, but at who's expense. You take the rifle hunt out of the rut you take the opportunity away for a lot of the women, youth and older generation to harvest a great bull. Why? so the young healthy man can hunt every couple of years? The quote above says it all for me "WIN WIN , MORE GUYS HUNTING". I don't hear rifle hunters complaining about more primitive tags, infact I would like to see equal tags for rifle, bow, and muzz. The rifle hunters get tired of the primitive hunters trying to mess up their hunt by moving the dates. The best hunt I have ever been on was when my mom was able to shoot a 387 bull a couple of years ago with all of her family including grandchildren sitting beside her. I would be willing to bet that after reading post from this fall that KTC and ANTLERICK would have the same kind of feeling about the rifle elk hunt in Utah. Before anyone starts in with me I will be applying for an archery tag for Elk in Utah in a few days.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-01-08 AT 10:01AM (MST)[p]All i will say is i think it is retarded to not offer more archery and muzz hunts, but have a "management hunt" instead..
if there is too many 5 point and small bulls then I think archery fits the bill well, because these guys are more likely to be happy with smaller bulls than a rut rifle hunter. This would also do well to lower the max point pool some, as some guys with a few less than max points would be willing to burn what they have on an archery hunt.
 
Schmalts,

I agree 100% More archery and muzzleloader tags would be an effective management tool. For more opportunity Utah could double the archery, and muzzleloader tags on most units and not hurt the quality one bit.
 
bragabit

I agree there needs to be more tags given for opportunity and the way to do it is bow and muzz. I like this path much better than the management hunts because it will take points off the top of the pool. Not like now where the people putting in will not have many any way 1-3 points. This is my guess but i bet i am right when the numbers come out next fall now that it uses points.

What do you all think about moving the bow to the middle of the rut but only a 10 day hunt and the rifle to the end of the rut then the muzz to the last week of Aug first week of sept?

still looking for response by others on the above statements about people that don't like to hunt with a bow and the new unit idea?

rock5150
 
i agree there needs to be more muzzleloader and archery tags. the muzzleloader hunters are getting the shaft in the LE elk units.
 
>encore,
>
>How so?


muzzleloaders are primitive weapons just like the archery is but yet get the least amount of tags
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-02-08 AT 09:21PM (MST)[p]"primitive weapons just like the archery"

I would LOVE to see more muzzy tags, but not sure you could legitimately call a encore topped with a scope shooting sabots that has a fist sized group at 200 yards a primative weapon.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
Archers and Long Gunners also make up the minority of hunters.

Secondly, archers and muzz hunters can get any weapon tags, which are offered up to all hunters equally. Still do not see your logic I guess.

I am with tx, I hardly see a Matthews at 325 fps and an Encore as primitive.

You are whining to the wrong guy. You want a muzz tag with the "rut dates" then apply for an any weapon tag. All you have to do is beat the odds or wait your turn.
 
never said i wanted muzz tag with rut dates, just more muzz tags. i am trying to play the odds have 12 points and cant draw a muzz tag, and those odds are better than the rifle hunt in the rut.
 
Still the wrong guy. I applied until that HAD to give me a tag. So goes the lottery luck......
 
ktc-once again I agree with you completely. The Utah DWR is far from perfect, but..I think the DWR is always getting a bad rap too. Shame on them for making Utah the most coveted state to draw for huge bulls by far! I have killed 12 bull elk in my life and a few cows. 2 of them small six points. (under 300 class bulls) and a few 2 year olds and then a bunch of spikes. I can tell you that for me personally, I get no more thrill shooting rag horn type bulls and small 6's, than the spike bull I took this past year. If you are a good hunter and learn an area and bust it every year, you can take a spike or a cow on a consistant basis. Trust me, that is still alot of fun! I am not against giving out a few more tags either, but dont ruin the ANY WEAPON hunt by flooding it with too many hunters or moving it away from the rut. Lets not get silly and greedy and ruin what weve got. What seems more fair?- 1 weapon choice during the peak of the rut, or ANY WEAPON choice during the peak of the rut? hmmm Easy decision in my opinion.
As for what it feels like to kill a big bull?? Hopefully I can let you know when I finally draw my LE tag one of these years.
 
Good point about new inline muzzleloaders being not quite so "primitive". I feel if you really know your gun and shoot a good load/bullet and are accurate you can shoot at 150 yards. Beyond, you may be accurate enough but bullet energy is not good enough IMO. That and 1x scopes limit max range, IMO, again to 150 yards. Not quite like open sight flint locks but still not quite like a rifle.

For anyone debating the "no rifle hunts in the rut" FYI that has been a basic concept in proper game management for a long time. Ask any game biologist. It really is not even debatable anymore, it is that solid. As for some not getting an elk because they do not have rifles in the rut. HUH? This is supposed to be hunting! From what I hear if you draw a good LE Utah tag and you do not take a nice 6x6 you are either very unlucky or a piss poor hunter (not just during the rut). I am not for making sure even the piss poor hunters can tag a trophy. THAT IS NOT HUNTING.
 
Any rifle hunter who does not see any bow as primitive has never bowhunted. I hunt hard and smart and drew a godo CO elk tag. I was within 80 yards of 5 trophy elk before I fnally got a shot at the 5th. Slam dunk with any gun!
 
There is not drought a Mathews and an encore are not ?primitive weapons?. However, it does not change the fact that many that just want to hunt ?opportunity? will use one of these weapons instead of waiting for 20 more years ?with 12 points? to be guaranteed a tag with a rifle in the rut. Prime rut now that is the best tag!!! no question if your want it play the odds.

No need to change it unless you have already drawn Right!!?? Now there is a thought on people?s motivation. I am not accusing any one just a thought.

The Questions still begs, why not the same number of tags for bow and muzz? Why not give the management tags to theses weapons? I do not believe it would hurt the hunt Quality at all.

Every one is playing the odds in some cases you should just play the lottery.

Pro still looking for your thought on the first post!

Rock 5150
 
I never said a Mathews was easier than a rifle, what I said is it is not primitive Don from Arizona. Set that down and pick up a recurve and show me your stuff. Your bow is just as modern as my rifle. Did we not debate the ethics of 100 yard shots? Seems it happens every year. Elk die to those shots just like a rifle at 500.

I bow hunted. I did not like it. Kind of like strawberry or chocolate ice cream. Just not my bag. I get sick of people trying to use any logic they can find to better their own chances. I applied for elk when elk hunting sucked here. Now that it is good everyone wants a tag, the odds suck, and people want to find a way to increase their own chances. Enjoy the fabulous elk herd and quit bitching about management. Someone did something right because Utah boasts the best herd any where. Then you find it necessary to take a stab at the hunter and his weapon of choice. Pick up a rifle hot rod and lets see one of those 380 bulls that mysteriously fall dead when they see you toting your rifle. Christ, this website has got some real winners......
 
....and let me add, why is the "best" hunts always handicapped with the worst odds? BECAUSE EVERYONE WANTS THE TAG! Best animals, best dates, best chance to kill a trophy!

I would guess anyone who hunts Colorado deer 4th season sucks, Arizona antelope hunters suck, Henry deer hunters really suck, 13B Arizona hunters suck, and everyone who hunts sheep suck! Why? Because they did not hunt with their damn bow and arrow like Tonto!

Muzz and bow hunters DO have their own hunts! Rifle hunter MUST do the any weapon tag. Each year if you bow or muzz hunt you have 2 options. The special muzz or bow only seasons or the any weapon! Fricken whine bags......

Nothing is going to change. Apply or don't apply.
 
Let's not forget, Utah, offers what they call premium hunts. Apply for these those guys who are worried about bow and muzz opportunity! You can hunt all archery season, all any weapon season, all muzz season plus the late rifle season! Talk about opportunity and catering to primitive weapons!

You know what! I am not bitchin about those because I think it is a great chance for a guy to use different weapons for the bull of a lifetime! Odds are sucky, but they are on any great tag!

I am not sure why I get drug into this debate everytime. I applied and waited my turn. I am done! Unless my daughter draws with 0 points? ;-) I hope the bulls are rutting, dumb as hell, and DonV can call my 13 year old a piss poor hunter and I can tell him to lick me.
 
AND FURTHER MORE DONV!

Draw a Dutton archery tag! I bet you do not score a bull! Draw a Dutton any weapon tag and I bet you do not break 350! Draw a muzz tag and I bet you are fortunate to connect on a good 6! Draw a Dutton premium and I still bet 350 is out of reach!

You damn goofballs act like drawing a tag is a free ticket to a 400 bull. Get out in the heat, sage, cedars, and cactus and go for it.
 
>For anyone debating the "no rifle
>hunts in the rut" FYI
>that has been a basic
>concept in proper game management
>for a long time. Ask
>any game biologist. It really
>is not even debatable anymore,
>it is that solid. As
>for some not getting an
>elk because they do not
>have rifles in the rut.
>HUH? This is supposed to
>be hunting! From what I
>hear if you draw a
>good LE Utah tag and
>you do not take a
>nice 6x6 you are either
>very unlucky or a piss
>poor hunter (not just during
>the rut). I am not
>for making sure even the
>piss poor hunters can tag
>a trophy. THAT IS NOT
>HUNTING.


Don,
If hunting elk in the rut is such a piss poor management tool then why is Utah kicking every other states azz in 400 inch bulls. Utahs biologist must not know anything. I think that maybe you ought to come out and try one of Utahs "rut" hunts and see what kind of hunt it is before you run your mouth about how easy it is. No it is not hard to kill a six point in the rut but there are not 350 class bulls behind every tree. Ask the late rifle hunters here in Utah how easy it is to kill a 350 plus class bull.
 
KTC,
First off, congradulations on your trophy bull two years ago, and your wifes bull last year. Both were tremendous bulls. What other state offers those kind of experiences. Are you sure you don't want to be like a number of people on here and push some other agenda so you can hunt Utah monster bulls again?.
 
brag,

Thanks. I felt we earned our bulls. It was a great experience! I have 13 elk points in Colorado? What to do with those? 2 in Wyoming? I can find a good hunt there. I went into Utah elk hunting thinking it would be easy. Not really hard, but not easy getting the better bulls.

I waited my turn. Now it is some one else's turn to enjoy at least as good of a hunt as I did. No way would I push for anything less. If I can get very very lucky and do it again great, if not, I am satisfied!

Good luck everyone! Utah elk hunting is GREAT!
 
Ktc,
There is no doubt you earned your bulls. There is no such thing as a gimme when hunting. I don't think that a few more archery and muzzleloader tags would hurt. I don't really think that these units can handle anymore rifle tags.
 
I agree. Slow increases in the right areas and during the right hunts would be smart. Just as they are doing. To appease bow hunters and give them a great chance as we all want, maybe extend the dates to over-lap with the any weapon? Overlap the first half with bow and the second half with muzz? I am not opposed to improvement, but I am opposed to any decrease in quality or the quality experience. One great thing was the low hunter numbers. For once we could actually hunt an animal.
 
bobcat,

Please take over. My heart rate got messed up. I hope you don't hate me DonVathome, but Jeezus dude, Utah is FAN-TAS-TIC elk hunting. Some serious stuff has gone right? Why complain about a GREAT success story?
 
I think it's pretty hard to argue with the results Utahs DNR has gotten with their elk management. I hope to draw a tag there someday (archery) and look at it as an OIL tag considering the odds. It will be more about the opportunity to hunt where there's a legit chance at a huge bull. That's why its hard to draw and should stay hard to draw. I disagree that rifle tags should be cut back so more primitive weapons tags can be issued. Once you start down that slippery slope someone in the future may decide to cut back tags the other direction and then where will you be? If a guy wants opportunity there's OTC tags available in several states.
 
bragabit,
you are right on. Anyone that has actually hunted or been along for one of these prime Utah LE hunts knows that 350+ bulls are not as easy to kill as some may imagine. Part of the whole 'once in a lifetime'experience is the bugling and everything that goes on with rut crazed bulls.
Hows this for an idea.?..?.lets just take all the hunts out of the rut, triple the tags in every unit, and then in a few years we can all brag about the awesome 280 class bulls that we get to shoot in Utah every 5 years or so. How does that sound?
 
I have eight points and hope to draw an archery tag in the next few years. When I do draw I want to be hunting 380 class bulls. If I wanted to wait 12 to 15 years to draw a tag and hunt 300 class bulls I would go to Colorado. By the way a 380 class shed is a hell of lot funner to find than a 300 inch class bull. Just another perk to living on one the "best" Utah elk units.
 
Don said: "Good point about new inline muzzleloaders being not quite so "primitive". I feel if you really know your gun and shoot a good load/bullet and are accurate you can shoot at 150 yards. Beyond, you may be accurate enough but bullet energy is not good enough IMO. That and 1x scopes limit max range, IMO, again to 150 yards. Not quite like open sight flint locks but still not quite like a rifle."

That is probably true if you or I are shooting one Don, but I know a guy from Colorado that got drawn, practiced all summer and shot his bull in Utah from 216 yards this fall.

To me "primative" is probably not the word we are looking for. Reduce opportunity to "pull the trigger" might be a better way to look at it.

I would say that all but the elite shooters are confined to about 40 yards with a bow, primative or not. In my mind that means "reduced opportunity".

The muzzy with a scope to me pushes that term quite a bit. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE to hunt with a muzzy and I would give my right n... to get a Utah muzzy tag.

Bottom line is that as stated, if you move the rifle season out of or at least to the very end of the rut, you could increase tags for bow and muzzy hunters. Question is whether or not people are ready to give up that dream of hunting that monster bull with a rifle in the rut. Especially all those that have built up all those points based on that premis.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
KTC

I helped a late rifle hunter on the Dutton 2 years ago, 5 days on horses to score. It is a beast of the first order; there is no give me. If you got a good bull you worked for it...

Bragabit
I do think an increase in tags for bow and muzz on the right units and right numbers is right on.

PRO still waiting for your response on post one*******

Rock5150
 
I am in the slow but a few increase tags crowd.

I am off my waiting period for LE elk and am in a lower tier point pool.

I do not want to draw and have it a zoo with to many tags issued and the crowd control head-ache.

I would much rather see few people and have to wait a few more years to draw.

Robb
 
Utah does have great elk, are you saying it IS because they rifle hunt the rut?

I think it is because they limit tags, if the rifle hunts were not in the rut they could issue more, which is the point of this, get more tags and better odds - so they did not make the best use of hunter oppurtunity and now they backlog of thousands of guys waiting to draw is pissing people off.

I will still say anyone is nuts if they think bowhunting, even with a new compound bow, is not primitive. I will agree a recurve is a lot harder. I will also agree that new inline muzzleloaders are maybe not primitive, but thay are still tougher then rifle.

I think taking an elk with a bow is a bigger accomplishment vs. a rifle. Ask anyone who has taken at least 2 elk with rifle and 2 with bow. I get within rifle range of 10 bulls for everyone one I take with bow. I get within 100 yards of 5 bulls for everyone I get with bow and half of the ones I get within 50 yards of I get. And I am a good hunter and a good shot. I have only taken 3 with bow so I am not an expert.

I would like anyone here who has taken at least 2 elk with bow and rifle to post which is tougher and give their opinion if a bow is primitive compared to a rifle, and to compare the level of difficulty.

Rifle hunting Utah during the peak rut on a good unit is not a true hunting challenge IMO (sure there is challenge in picking a huge bull, and this is based on what I have been told by dozens of guys who have hunted there). What percentage of these tags issued go on mature bulls? 50%? And of the remaining 50% who fail to tag how many did not hunt, had to give up early or passed 6x6 bulls several times? What kind of tough hunt results in half the guys tagging trophies? I know there are not 400 (or even 350) bulls behind every tree. I never said there were. At no point am I saying getting a 400, or a 350 bull is easy or a sure thing - remember this, I am saying getting a nice 6x6, 300ish. I have not hunted Utah but most guys I know say it is a slam dunk for a trophy bull (6x6) if you know how to hunt and go early rifle somewhere good. One guy even called it a game farm (quote). How many guys that are in good shape, hunt hard and know what they are not doing cannot take a 6x6 in a week? Would I be correct to say that if you are a good elk hunter, hunt hard are in shape and draw a good early rifle tag you will get at least 7 chances at mature bulls (300 6x6) in a week?

Give me a Dutton bow tag and I will come out with a P&Y, nothing is for sure but my odds would be around 90%.

How in the world is a mathews not primitive to by the way? Practice all summer and tune your bow, which I spend more time with in 2 months then I have with my rifle in 20 years, to be able to take a 40 yard shot only to get deflected by a twig or have the bull see you draw? Yeah that is just like poking one with a rifle at 400 yards.

I am not against rifle hunting - I do on rare occasion, but I make no mistake that a rilfe is cake compared to a bow, and if I ever take a bull with a rifle I will have no where near the sense of pride I would have with a bow.

Now that I am done ranting, if Utah wants to issue rut rifle tags then that is up to them/you. Far be it for me, from Ohio to tell you what to do. However I think less rifle rut tags and more bow tags is good, that is my opinion. Yes Utah is a GREAT ELK STATE, there management has been great. I cannot wait to come there and hunt, with any weapon. Heck if early rifle rut hunts and as good of odds of bow or muzzleloader I would apply for them!

An early rifle rut hunt is a great experiance I have no doubt. Believe me all of my fantasy elk daydreams are in Utah with bulls screaming around me, what weapon I have in my hands is just the icing on the cake.

I do get the impression that may guys expect to have a rifle, hunt the rut and have mature bulls screaming all around them. I have yet to have the privilege of having hunted anything close to this. I got a decent tag in CO this year, nothing like Utah, and it was great! I do not personally feel the need for this to have a great hunt. It would be nice but I am used to working a lot harder to produce results, which is why it is tough for me to understand why others feel they must have this to have a good hunt.

kts from memory we usually agree on stuff, in no way do I want to insult your little girl (I have 2). Youth hunts are a great idea, and I have no problem with them during the rut with rifle. I do feel that a good hunter does not need a early rut rifle hunt to tag an elk - and that elk hunting should not be a sure thing. I have my opinion and you have yours. I will agree that all things equal THERE IS NOT ELK TAG I WOULD RATHER HAVE IN MY HAND THAN AN EARLY RUT RIFLE UTAH TAG in a good unit. I would have a rifle in my hands! In a few years after I have taken more good bulls, I would probably want to bowhunt. I just think that more tags could be issued if there were not rifle rut hunts, so I could maybe come back to Utah once after being drawn.

Please keep in mind my perspective, there are 10,000 NR with 1 elk point and 175 NR bull elk tags. That scares me - likely even if I draw this year I will never be able to hunt elk in a LE unit in Utah again.

DonV Ohio (I have never even been in Utah so take my balony for what it is worth!)
 
DonV,

Thanks for the response. You admit you have not set foot on or hunted these units. I mentioned earlier with a Dutton tag you would eat soup. Not true, you would have a chance like we all do. You also mention shooting a bull with a bow is more of an accomplishment?

I know several guys, very accomplished hunters, I met while on the Dutton. MANY of them went home without. I watched 2 of these guys hunt almost every day until they were completely spent. I could give you their handle on MM, but I will not. I am still shaking my head that these guys did not connect. So 90%? You have been given some bad info if that is what you are told. I bet the guys who did not connect from MM would be glad to here about the 90% without trying it.

I also talked to a guy who did not kill with a rifle. Just small bulls and he did not kill. This guy is pretty high profile and knows a ton about hunting especially Utah.

I helped on the muzz this year a guy who knows more about elk and calling bulls in than me and you and the rest of this board put together. He had all kinds of hell. He unded up with a very nice bull, but it was getting pretty iffy there for a while. The elk would not talk, just like they did not talk on my wife's hunt, my hunt, or my brothers hunt. You had to get in and find them. I wonder if the pre-rut bow hunt dates were better?

When rifle hunting surely your range is extended. Why is it a bigger accomplishment to kill with a bow? I do not get that statement. Does that mean to be a real man you must bow hunt? I always thought weapon choice was that, a choice. When someone shows me their trophy, it is what it is. If it is a 220 bull with a bow it is still 220. 390 is 390. I never got into those comments like "Damn nice bull for a bow!" It is either a damn nice bull or not.

Don, the Utah hunts are great. What makes them great is no people, you can hunt a specific animal, a few bulls over 400, with some 350+, and lots of smaller bulls. Anyone who tells you it is a gimme is wrong. Yes you can kill an elk with a rifle, maybe a bow. However, please do not listen to these guys giving you your info. They are making it sound like a zoo. To hear people and watch MM it sounds that way. Get a tag with your weapon of choice and lets see if you can put down that great 350+ bull. It is fun trying!
 
Don
Thanks for having the stones to reply!!

I do not agree with you on several points I will outline.
1. In your first paragraph you comment on ?not making best use of hunter opportunity and now they are backlogged by thousands?. As this thread stated in the beginning, OPPORTNITY FOR WHO? It sounds as if you are saying, "you and many others", if I hunt with a bow and because it's harder I should get to hunt more often and for longer periods of time because I'm a real hunter.

2. You also state, ?I will still say anyone is nuts if they think bowhunting, even with a new compound bow, is not primitive.? I must be nuts because it is NOT primitive. Let's look at how primitive the bowhunter equipment is. A Matthews bow, Scentlocker clothes, climbing tree stands, carbon arrows, and expandable broadheads. Sorry there's nothing primitive about that. The Apaches must have missed out on all accounts. If you're hunting in buck skins, moccasins, and a recurve with a wood arrow and an obsidian head ? then I'll say primitive.

3. Explain to me why you have to have taken two elk to have an opinion about this. Everyone knows you have to be closer to kill with a bow. That isn't the issue.

4. Until you have hunted an LE unit in Utah, please do not speak about how hard or easy it is to kill true trophies. I agree in a week on one of these units you could see 10 6x6 300 class bulls, however that is not a trophy. Seeing is not killing.

5. ?One guy even called it a game farm (quote). ? This person is a *********.

6. ?How many guys that are in good shape, hunt hard and know what they are doing cannot take a 6x6 in a week?? You just said it. Look at the post that started this. What about my wife who may not be an olypmic tri-athlete and cannot shoot a bow? Does she not get a shot at a true trophy?

These are points that I think need to be reconsidered. This is just MY opinion.
Rock5150
 
Thanks, good post ktc, I feel bow is more of an accomplishemnt because it is a lot harder. First, bow takes a LOT of practice, tuning, learning about gear in much more detail. It takes discpline to choose to use that weapon and have to practice 3 times or more per week for 6 months. I have to spend 10-20 times the time to prepare to shoot (practice) accurately (bow vs. rifle). Second it is very hard to get within 30-40 yards, many times with wind impossible. Game reacts a lot differently to an odd crunch at 30 yards compared with 300.

In no means do I condem rifle hunters (again I am one), but I will always feel greater pride in a bowkill, but that is me.

It is not more of a man or anything, I personally think and feel it is a lot tougher. I am not a die hard bowhunter, I will rifle hunt, quite frankly because it is easier and when I am in the woods with a bow I know on any given day it will be hard to get an elk no matter what I do or know. I am going to POW island AK in 5 months for bear and debating taking bow or rifle, I will probably take my rifle. If I draw WY this year I will rifle hunt.

Thanks, DonV
 
DonV,

I appreciate your view. Yes, bows are more work. I enjoyed bow hunting, but just not like rifle hunting. I have always been a gun nut. I try to hold no ill feeling toward the bow guys. I respect their hunt and weapon choice. It just seems every year the bow guys (or at least some of them cry foul) and want more and more. There is a TON of hunting here if you bow hunt. The odds just suck like they do every where where the hunting is great. I can see your point on the bigger accomplishment. However, rather than making it to be more than it is, it is still a hunt.

Good luck on drawing. Be prepared to work hard, especially with a bow. It is tougher than many would want you to believe. When we drew I had it in my mind you drove around and glassed up 350-370 bulls and shot when you drove onto the 380. Boy, was I wrong. You see lots of great Utah bulls on here. You are not seeing the unsuccessful photos!

Enjoy Utah bulls Don!
 
Wow Ty,

I thought we were staying out of these threads! I thought you were going to blow a gaskett!

DonV,

Rest assured that to kill a big bull with your bow here in Utah is anything but a slam dunk. You will have MANY close encounters with good bulls. You will probably even get your chance before the hunt ends. But even a 300 class bull is not a slam dunk by any means. Don't get me wrong, I would hunt Utah before any other state if I could, but if you go look at the success rates, they are not that great on most units.

I have hunted the Manti and the Wasatch both for Archery LE elk. I hunted 12 solid days on the manti and killed a sub 300 6x6 bull, and I hunted 14 solid days before I killed my 330+ bull this year. Those were hard miles and weeks of scouting. On my Manti hunt my Dad who knows the area better than anyone I know did not kill a bull. He did pass a few 260-280 bulls. We had dozens of 300 bulls under 40 yards several a day some times. But getting that arrow in to one proved to be a difficult task as you know!! We even had a bull over 380 at 15 yards off and on for 10 minutes and could not get an ethical shot! This year I had 4 bowhunters camped near me and they did not get one shot between the 4 of them. We were hunting the exact same areas. They hunt that area every year and are successful on spikes/cows. If you do draw let me know as I will help you the best I can but beware of the Dutton. My good friends younger brother killed a giant bull down there this year! That unit is not for the faint of heart. It is extremely rugged and you will not see the elk nearly as frequently as the other units. KTC knows 1st hand how tough that unit is on your body!

Good luck in your draws. Do not take this as a discouragement, just a helpful tip for when you do draw, come ready to hunt your gut's out and you will be rewarded with one heck of a hunt!

Chad
 
rock,

That "game farm" comment also got me. Whoever that was has never hunted Utah bulls, just sat and read MM and a lot of the purist bull-##### that goes on.

Maybe I would bow hunt if I could? If I pull a bow back I spend the next month on the bed. Can't do it. The pull, the twist=dead meat for me. Those that can enjoy! Just don't ruin my hunts to enhance your own. Give and take is what it is. I enjoy a good bow hunt photo and story just like the rifle ones. If they kill a 430 I do not cry because they go first. I say great job during the pre-rut/rut!

Choose the season and hunts with the weapons you enjoy and go for it. Great hunts are available in Utah. It is what it is so get lucky, draw out, then go hunt! Don't blame the next guy because you cannot draw, cannot connect with a bow, cannot find a big boy with a rifle, or the 1X scope sucks on your muzzy. Just do your best with the weapon you choose. No bull-#####, no excuses, just go when you draw!!!!! Nothing to prove to anyone? Right?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-04-08 AT 11:13AM (MST)[p]

"When we drew I had it in my mind you drove around and glassed up 350-370 bulls and shot when you drove onto the 380. Boy, was I wrong."

great, you guys just shot down my vision of UT LE hunting.
 
rock5150

1. That really is not what I am saying, I was trying to make the point that is rifle hunts were not in the rut they could issue more tags and thus the wait to draw would be less (however I will concede it might mean 13 years instead of 14 or 15 years, in which case I would rather wait a little more and have a rut hunt). I do feel bow is tougher but in no way makes you more of a man. As for more often (bow), never really even thought about that - that is realative to draw odds, I do not think F&G owe me more tags because I bowhunt. I do think bowhunters should get a longer season then rifle. FYI I sometimes apply muzzleloader in Utah and have looked at rifle hunts (just to be honest).

2. You have made me rethink primitive, compared to rifle yes bows are, but compared to indians you are right, not even close. Releases, laser rangefinders (for bow and rifle hunters) binos etc. I will agree in that sense they are far from primitive. To me a bow is primitive compared to a rifle. New inline muzzleloaders, they are not as easy as rifles but if you know how to work one and get a good one I would say 3/4 of the elk you can take with a rifle you could take with a ML. I really just did not want bows lumped into the same weapons catagory as rifles.

3. Also the reason I said 2 elk with bow is simple, IMO a guy who has taken 1 elk with bow may not really understand it. 2 elk there is a good chance he really has hunted a lot and learned a lot (but it can happen when someone has not taken any elk). That is all, not that 2 is any mile post but in general it implies a little more experiance (to me, personally once someone has killed 3 of a big game animal likely then he knows how to hunt). I have watched newbies here in Ohio take a deer and think they know deer hunting, most times they do not, but by the time they have taken three most times thet do know deer hunting. I am sure most guys here would admit that they know far more about elk hunting after they took 3 elk then after they took 1.

4. I definetly disagree on what a trophy is, a nice 6x6 300 is a trophy to me, and I bet 90% of all elk hunters in the US. I think 90% of elk hunters hunt OTC, and I am willing to bet most of them would cut off a family jewel to take a 300 bull. Sure this is far from Utah LE where I would raise the bar, but simply put to me, and many other elk hunters a 300 bull is a trophy. P&Y is only 280. I consider a 6x6 300 bull a trophy. If I drew a early rifle tag in the San Juan you better believe I would be passing 300 bulls but I still think they are trophies! If you want I will post a pic of a 280ish bull I took and ask if it is a trophy, I think most would say yes. (not trying to bea jerk).

5. That was not me but that is what he said!

6. Sure she should, I am not saying that, I am saying we do not have to design hunts to be such a sure think that everyone can get an elk. I think everyone should have an oppurtunity and then it takes luck & skill. I do not think F&G should design hunts so that they are "easy" just so everyone can get an elk. I think EVERYONE should have a chance. In fact I am looking into helping disabled hunters here in Ohio, and in the future when I get more vacation time I plan to help disabled elk hunters (on my own time and dollar). I feel very strongly about this and have for some time. Good articles in the latest RMEF that truely bought a tear to my eye (disabled vets hunting).

I really do not understand why your wife cannot take an elk with a rifle in a good area not in the rut? That really is the only difference? Compared to where 99% of elk hunters hunt the Utah early rifle hunt is much easier, and yet 99% of elk hunters still elk hunt and enjoy it? Again not knocking you just giving my thoughts. I do think that many guys in utah are spoiled to your good hunting (please do not take this the wrong way) most elk hunters hunt places that are not even close to what Utah has to offer and have a good hunt.

Most guys I know who OTC rifle hunt in CO hunt hard and it is a good year if they see one 300 bull.

Again good post and this are just my thoughts, heck I thought your were on my side! :)
 
By allowing bowhunters and muzzy packers a few more tags will only allow for better odds for the rifle hunters, even if you take the tags from the rifle pool. There is plenty of room for a few more tags on some of the units (without affecting quality of animal, which seems to be the only reason some people hunt anymore). Ratios as high as 67 bulls/100 cows in some areas? Give me a break! I think the state is missing out on opportunity for more revenue, and more hunter opportunity. Heck throw some more tags to the non-res too. The more non-res=more revenue. If they had better odds, maybe more people would send money to Utah.
As far as the moving the rifle out of the rut? Appeal to all, give some units to the rifle hunters and some to the bowhunters in the rut. (Grand Idea, Pro!)
I'll take it to another level And WHEN, and I say WHEN, people start to moan about not having "their" unit availiable for "their" weapon choice, what about changing every other year? Example: 2009 the rifle hunters would get say the Phavhant in the rut, and then the next year, 2010 the bowhunters could hunt it in the rut? Maybe it would be too confusing?
The goal is to be fair to everyone. Rifle gets the most tags, because they have the greatest population. But the expierience of the full blown rut is second to none, no matter the weapon you have in your hand. Why can't the bowhunters share in this, in Utah?
 
Don a couple of years ago I killed a 300 class bull on a late muzzy hunt. Did I mount it, no but I sure as hell would of if I'd taken it with a bow. I've yet to kill one with a bow, but I'll keep trying.
 
SS,

Your post really puts things into perspective. You had 2 bow hunts and you shared your experience. People on these boards only see the big ones. They never see the guy driving home empty because he could not get that 50 yard shot at the 380 or the rifle guy who had that monster at 500 but could not get the shot. All we see is the big ones and everyone thinks all they do is draw and one of them is theirs. What are we talking in 350+ across the board and all weapons? 10%? 20% tops? Most of them rifle? What about 400 bulls? .5% of all bulls killed hit this mark? .2% maybe? How many of these 350+ we see here are officially that big? People scoff at 350 bulls, but they are the ones sitting home telling stories.

Good luck to all in the draws regardless of how and what you hunt with!!!!
 
Don
Thanks for responding to my post. I better understand you and your thoughts now.
You are most right about utah hunter being spoiled we are, no other way to look at it.

The trophy is most defiantly in the eye of the beholder. If I killed a 280 bull in CO it would be a trophy to me rifle or bow, muzz, sling shot you name it. All I am saying is that on the best LE units Beaver, Fillmore, San Juan, Southwest desert, Monroe. Most not all would not think a 280 is a trophy that is why they pass them up for the bigger bull. Those who don't and are happy I am happy for them.

As to my wife all I am saying is that we should not change the rules now i.e. move the rifle out of the rut to accommodate other hunting choices (bow). Also I am saying to have the same kind of chance as the avid hunter at just a good bull people like my wife or gramps, young daughter would benefit by having the rut. That is all am saying.

As to being on your side I think I am on most things. I do believe that thy could give more bow and muzz tags on the right units with the right numbers and not hurt it at all. I think that is what you are saying as well?

I just want to here what people have to say. I read MM for a long time and never posted. Finally I got sick of some people saying things that to me just seemed to benefit one sect of hunters. I think there are a lot more people that do not post that are a lot more in the middle.

Vocal Minority gets what they want. Well I think I am of the not as silent majority. I hope more people will post and comment we don't all have to agree but it is good to here other peoples thought.

PRO still waiting

Rock 5150
 
>By allowing bowhunters and muzzy packers
>a few more tags will
>only allow for better odds
>for the rifle hunters, even
>if you take the tags
>from the rifle pool.
>There is plenty of room
>for a few more tags
>on some of the units
>(without affecting quality of animal,
>which seems to be the
>only reason some people hunt
>anymore). Ratios as high
>as 67 bulls/100 cows in
>some areas? Give me
>a break! I
>think the state is missing
>out on opportunity for
>more revenue, and more hunter
>opportunity. Heck throw some
>more tags to the non-res
>too. The more non-res=more
>revenue. If they had
>better odds, maybe more people
>would send money to Utah.
>
>As far as the moving the
>rifle out of the rut?
> Appeal to all, give
>some units to the rifle
>hunters and some to the
>bowhunters in the rut. (Grand
>Idea, Pro!)
>I'll take it to another level
>And WHEN, and I
>say WHEN, people start to
>moan about not having "their"
>unit availiable for "their" weapon
>choice, what about changing every
>other year? Example: 2009
>the rifle hunters would get
>say the Phavhant in the
>rut, and then the next
>year, 2010 the bowhunters could
>hunt it in the rut?
> Maybe it would be
>too confusing?
>The goal is to be fair
>to everyone. Rifle gets
>the most tags, because they
>have the greatest population.
>But the expierience of the
>full blown rut is second
>to none, no matter the
>weapon you have in your
>hand. Why can't the
>bowhunters share in this,
>in Utah?


I like the ideas.
Why do you not say the Muzz hunt in the rut or the Muzz get JUST the same number of tags (as the bow hunters do now) there are as many muzz hunters putting in as bow and there is even less tags. I agree about more tags if done right.

Rock 5150
 
This is interesting and maybe the heart of the debate. Deerlove kills a 300 with a muzz and does not mount it. He would of with a bow. Would I mount a 330 Utah rifle bull? Probably not, but it is still a great bull! I would imagine most bow hunters want the best chance to kill what Utah offers; possible 400 type bulls. The same for rifle and muzz.

If you choose to bow hunt or muzz hunt, you know the dates going in. You also know what you will be happy with going in. If you have a bad experience please do not blame the Any Weapon hunt or the rifle hunter who kills a 350 bull. They waited for the hunt they wanted. I do believe that an animals score in relation to a personal trophy depends greatly on weapon choice, area hunted, and dates hunted.

A 300 bull to me on a Utah LE may spell failure with a rifle. With a bow probably pretty juiced. A 300 on general season public land is a stud! Hell, a spike ain't bad! When ou have 200" deer and 400" bulls around, chances are draw odds really suck! If you can pull this off in a general unit, you are a stud.

DonV I hope you can go to Utah soon. If you need my opinion or help on units you can hit me up. I am not opposed to helping anyone. Bow, rifle, or muzz. These tags are hard to get and I like to see people do well. I also do not claim to know everything, but I have watched the elk stuff pretty close.

Maybe Utah could do it different and everything would be better? I am not sure. All I know is Utah elk is a great success story. Change should be slow and careful if at all.
 
Thanks Ty,

All of my comments are based on personal experience. It is not a slam dunk for sure! I would NOT trade either hunt expereince for anything though! It is truly an amazing hunt no matter what your weapon type. We all deserve a "fair" shot to draw a tag or 2 (wink! wink!) I would have to say that between 10-20% of the bulls are in the 350+ category. The VAST MAJORITY of rifle/muzzleloader kills are 300-330 bulls. I have seen a LOT of sub 300 bulls killed on the Bowhunt. As for 400 class bulls, it seems we have 10-12 each year reported on MM etc. That is probably .5% or smaller since we have 2000 tags? (I am not a math major)

Rock,

You have asked why the Muzzleloaders get less tags. The answer is plain and simple. The muzzleloaders have NO representation at the RAC's each year. The thing with Utah is everything runs through the RAC process. Muzzleloaders used to have to Draw out for a general season tag. When I asked the Division "why?" they said because no one had asked to have it changed. Guess what? It changed the next year!

The "problem" with our elk herd (IMO) is we have a large majority of people (according to a few questionaires by the DWR and SFW) that would love to hunt a mature bull elk. Not a 400 class bull. We currently manage our herds for Optimum potential which calls for a very minimal harvest. That is okay for maybe 20% of the really hard core trophy hunters. The ultimate question is do we manage Utah's herds for the proactive minority or is there room to manage some of the units for the SILENT majority??

The word "opportunity" to some means giving tags to people other than (me/you/them). In Utah we have a huge amount of rifle hunters. We have a smaller amount of Bowhunter and an even smaller group of Muzzleloaders statistically.

My personal view of opportunity is setting the harvest #'s for each weapon type and basing permits #'s off of that number. ie. rifles 90% harvest, they can only give a few more tags then they want bulls killed, Muzzleloaders 70% harvest can get a few more permits to balance the 30% that do not kill, and the archers anywhere from 30% harvest to 70% harvest depending on the unit could get an even higher number of tags. Yet they statistically would kill the set goal of harvest. It is not a question of what is fair, it is what is Biologically feasible within each unit individually not collectivly.

Utah has no interest in anything that complicated so they have chosen to base permits on 100% harvest regardless of the real numbers.

My vision of a perfect system is one where there are 3-5 units where a guy could apply for the chance to kill a 330 or smaller bull with lots of opportunity to appease those who would be happy to do so and not touch the premium units other than to allow for very micromanaged increases in tags to keep them in the elk plans age objectives! We manage the deer this way with premium units and regular LE units. But, If the majority of hunters would rather never hunt LE elk in Utah then I say leave it as is. I personally will most likely never hunt it again. But my son will soon be able to apply and I am pretty sure he would settle for a little bitty 310 class bull if he could!

What are your guy's honest views? Is there no room to increase tags on a few lesser units? I personally think you would see a bunch of older and younger hunters jump in to those hunts and it would help odds for the premium units a little?? I could be way off too??? What am I missing?

Thanks for the discussion guy's, This as usual has turned into a great thread!

Chad
 
SS,

Very informative! I cannot say I disagree. I also think pro can make a good point from time to time.;-)

Let's switch gears with elk in mind. The Henry deer herd is almost impossible to draw. This tells me that the monster deer is where the interest is. Since there is only one unit like the Henry herd and interest is so high, do we add to that interest? Make more super quality deer herds?

I am not opposed to lesser quality units with greater opportunity, but will the people apply? Or, do they stick with the top quality units and complain? Deep down, and most won't admit it, they want the best unit?
 
yes, I would love to only wait a cpl years to draw a tag and see 350 bulls.
However, UT got big bulls by limiting the kill, plain and simple.

I live in an opportunity state (Oregon). Believe me or not, you don't want to go down this route. Our Weneha unit is our "trophy" unit. It got this way by accident. The calf recruitment is so low they limit the tags to 10-20, bow and rifle. It took max points to get a rifle or bow tag and last year (12-13)
And with all this, ODFW has 200 rifle spike hunters in there with the rifle bull tag guys, providing 200 hunters with "opportunity".
Deer tags in a friends unit have gone from 750 to 2500. Have you seen a 300% increase in deer numbers? Anywhere?

If you hear a bull bugle in OR you dam well better haul azz. You don't get to to work them for long around here. Think Colorado, that's what you get when the game dept turns to opportunity.

If it isn't broke, don't fix it. If you have to tinker... tread lightly and in a cpl test units, not the whole shebang.

You really have something special down there, don't screw it up.
Not everybody gets to win the lotto.
Life ain't fair.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-04-08 AT 02:07PM (MST)[p]The bow hunters are the only ones that don't hit the prim rut in Utah. I'm not trying to make this a rifle verses Bow thing or muzzy verses anything. But the rifle is by far the better deal. Rut in full swing, NO other hunters. Bow hunters get the pre rut and share it with cow/spike hunters(in certain units) and archery deer hunters. Muzzy hunters get the end of the rut, with possible other muzzy deer hunters in the field.
Just some food for thought.
Either way the better deal (rifle) takes more years to get (less opportunity), and on the other end, the harder hunt (bow) is easier to obtain (more opportunity). Kinda makes sense? We can all choose which one we want to go for though.
But how much fun would a heat of the rut bow hunt be in Utah? Simply unbeatable!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-04-08 AT 02:31PM (MST)[p]That is the million dollar question! I think so. I have no real way to back that up though?? (***edit*** Based on the interest from Pro's plan, I think there would be enough interest to sustain a unit or 2??)
Maybe we try it on 1-2 units for a 2 year trial type thing? I personally think it would be worth a try. The statement I always get is go to colorado or go hunt the Open bull units. Well, what if the state could offer a 300 class unit or 2 for those that would in fact apply and be happy? I don't know! All I know is if they ever go that route it must use points and have a waiting period just like the premium units.
As for the deer question, I would LOVE to see more effort put in to the deer. Do we have a parcel of land where we could actually grow a premium unit? Do we just convert a unit already in existance? How about the Vernon? Would it get poached out or would the general hunters shoot it out as bucks leave the unit? Personally I would love to see the general areas see some serious habitat improvement. What area's you thinking about?
 
There have been some great ideas thown around here. I am for the idea of having units managed for opportunity rather than quality. The problem is how do you choose those units? I am like most guys, good idea just don't do it on the Southwest Desert where I spend all of my time.

I always here the comment "move the bow hunt back one week, it would not hurt the rifle hunt". This comment is right it really would not hurt the rifle hunt much. But, it would ruin the muzzleloader hunt.

I wonder how many of the bow hunters that want to hunt the rut would trade seasons with the muzzleloader hunters. I'll bet that muzzleloader hunters would trade their 9 days late rut for 4 week pre-rut.

I am happy with the way Utah manages their elk. I think that every group of hunters has a chance to have awesome hunt.,
 
saddle,

I understand your thoughts, however, the ANY WEAPON tag provides the "best" dates for any hunter. So my thinking is the best dates are bow dates. You just got to get through the odds to get that tag? Right?

Wapiti,

You have a crappy elk herd. You understand. We have a great one, and people get upset?

SS,

Maybe rather than another Henry unit, maybe make the entire state a bit better? A few 200 bucks some 180 bucks, and some opportunity? I know we get a few like I mentioned, but just expand on it some? If we are at 17-100 buck to doe, maybe 23-100 does? With an age class type of deal? 10 mature bucks to does? Hell, I do not know, just a step better? 40 units to better handle on ratios and ages? Just a wish I guess?
 
Don,

Utahs hunt are awesome, but far from a slamdunk. I don't have the exact numbers but on the Beaver archery hunt in 2005 and 06 there was 1 bull killed out of 14 hunters. On the first Southwest Desert late hunt the kill rate was 0% for the seven hunters. These are two of the premium units in the state
 
One more thing;

I always thought the pre-rut was the very best dates to get close and call? On our hunts if you bugled the elk shut up and took their cows away. I guess I am wondering if the Any Weapon dates are really the best? A few will call, but most won't????

Just a thought? Are the bow hunters hoping for something that really is not an improvement in dates?????
 
>LAST EDITED ON Jan-04-08
>AT 02:31?PM (MST)

>As for the deer question, I
>would LOVE to see more
>effort put in to the
>deer. Do we have
>a parcel of land where
>we could actually grow a
>premium unit? Do we
>just convert a unit already
>in existance? How about
>the Vernon? Would it
>get poached out or would
>the general hunters shoot it
>out as bucks leave the
>unit? Personally I would
>love to see the general
>areas see some serious habitat
>improvement. What area's you
>thinking about?

SS

Very interesting thoughts. I still would like pro to comment on this. I am not saying I am opposed to it, points and waiting must be part of it.

AS to your Vernon idea I do not know enough about it to say. The units that come to my mind would be like Beaver, Fillmore, Fishlake. There has to be some up north that would have potential. I say these may work because of the winter ranges and the other units that may benefit from them. AS i said earlier i grow up in joseph and hunted as we called it the west and know that mountain has great genetics. I would never get to hunt it but it would be good see big deer up their when i get to go home and visit.

just my though
Rock5150
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-04-08 AT 03:23PM (MST)[p]I guess it would depend on the definition of pre rut? What kind of elk rutting activity is happening in mid Aug.? I have seen activity start towards the end of the the Archery LE, but maybe the last few days is all. So yes bow hunters get a little piece of the pie I guess. But they still have to deal with other archery deer hunters during their entire hunt. I have only hunted and killed one mature bull with my bow in my life (which was not in Utah) so I am by no means an expert, but I can't help but think the better dates are given to the rifle hunters. Maybe if I could hunt the Utah bulls more than once every 15-20 years I might know a little more about them?--Just a joke--
No matter the dates, pre rut, or right in the middle , or even the end, hunting is hunting, some days you can get every bull to respond, and get close, other days you couldn't buy one (well with the way hunting is going, maybe the bulls take Visa now days, or is it Mastercard?) Another joke? Why do you need to call and get close to Elk when you have A rifle in your hands?
 
Ktc,

You are right I would sure hate to try to kill a bull on the 20 th of Sept. with a bow when he has a herd of 30 cows. They may make a lot of noise and are easier to find but, killing them with that many eyes around would be pretty tough. I would rather be bowhunting them while they are still wondering around looking for a "hot" cow.

Just filled out my application for Archery Elk. Dates are early this year The first extra five day that were added this year may be best. I would love to find 4 or 5 bulls still together on Aug 16 and hunt them.

Where is Pro and Bobcat, how can we have 5 days of discussion on Utah elk hunting and not one comment from either of them!
 
In my limited expereince actually hunting mature bulls with a bow I would definalty say that the window between sept 5-10th seems to be pretty good for bugling activity but the very best has been when the Muzzleloader hunt is. The bulls are going ballistic! Different units different patterns?? I think as a bowhunter we should strive for more permits where feasible and enjoy the great herd we have. There is no perfect dates!! The best dates are really the ones on your permit!

Ty,

I would fall on the improve the whole deer herd statewide over another Henry's unit. One question I have always wondered. We manage elk for the age classes and keep them on the high side and that is acceptable, why do we manage our deer for the low side of the buck to do ratio? They want 12-15 and we call it a success at 12.3? I would lobby for and support efforts to improve our buck to doe ratios and add a year or 2 to the age classes of our bucks.

Have the elk displaced our deer? Can we have a thriving elk herd and a thriving deer herd? I think we can but we need to manage our deer more like our elk. By the specific area/herd not by an entire region! What do ya think?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-04-08 AT 04:28PM (MST)[p]You know your right, the dates for the bow hunters are much better, thats why the success rates are so high with a bow. Cause its easier to kill a bull in the middle of August, than when they are rutting in September? Correct me if I am wrong, again I don't know everything, but aren't bulls still looking for "hot" cows towards the end of Sept? Or do they stop on Sept. 12?
 
They are still looking for hot cows at the end of sept. But, they are not willing to leave 30 other cows to come to a call. I have seen a deffinate change the last 5 or 6 years on the way that bulls on the Southwest Desert come to calls. I can't speak to other places but it is getting alot harder to call elk. It may just be that you have hundreds of people out calling them every fall. I am hearing this being a pretty common theme.
 
ss,

I like what you say about the deer. I would like to see better buck to doe ratios and an age class type management? I would love a crack at the Henry's, but I would also love a general season with a better chance at the big guys? I know some exist, but not enough of them. If we could reach Colorado standards that would be nice! They have lots of elk and deer?

saddle,

Don't turn this into something it is not ok? My first point is if you NEED the Any Weapon dates you can apply and hunt with your bow. If you want to go archery, then the dates are earlier. I can totally sympathize with the LE archers hunting with the general season people. THAT WOULD SUCK!!!! Part of the LE experience should be low pressure!

In the last 3 years the bugle and rut was very odd. The first year the elk were quiet and when they bugled if you bugled back, they shut up and walked away. The second year I never heard a bugle in 5 days! I am totally serious! I was baffled by this. This year they acted like the first year. However, my wife's bull was alone and wanted a cow. We called him in with cow calls and would have come all the way. This was the only one of many. On the muzz, it sucked! No rut at all IMO.

You do not need them close with a rifle. If you go into a canyon and they are calling, you can bring them out to judge or shoot. If they are quiet you have to go get them. Regardless if you have a rifle or bow, you gotta start somewhere right?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-04-08 AT 06:00PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-04-08 AT 05:55?PM (MST)

saddle,

If they gave me a statewide elk tag for bow only and told me to pick 5 days to hunt, from my experience, I would choose September 10-15. Never bow hunted but have scouted a lot. These dates would be my pick. Not the 20th. Once those bulls have their cows they are happy they don't care about bugles or cow calls. They just want to screw what they got?

brag,

By reading your post about the rut and bulls, you have spent some time out there! The Utah rut has changed and it is not quite what people are expecting? That is my guess? I have yet to see that "heat of the rut" people talk about? Calling in bulls with a stick flipper is tough. I still take early September if I have to bow hunt.

Good luck brag and saddle!

Damn I am bored! Ha! Just waiting for dinner?

I would even support the bow hunters overlapping into the any weapon IF they still had to use their bow? Just a thought to help satisfy the bow guys? I really doubt it would help much, but maybe a little?
 
Hey saddle,

Please don't take my last post to mean that I would not love to hunt the peak of the rut! What I mean is that often the dates prior to that are more effective with bulls "cruising" for cows. Also, as Ty has said, Bowhunters CAN hunt the rut currently without dealing with other hunters, they just have to wait in line! That does not mean I would not love to move the Any Weapon to another time either! A lot of options for hunters, just a low # of tags! HAve a great night!

Chad
 
saddle,

Please, spend some time with the elk! Watch their habits, observe what they are doing and when. The rut is not something that happens like clock work. Some units may be best late August early September one year, later September the next. I heard on my unit that 06 was some awesome muzz dates. 07 muzz dates sucked! 05 the bow dates were pretty good. 06 and 07 not bad? Still very tough though! In fact, in 06, having a bow in hand around the 15th would have been a night mare! I think to have rut dates for sure, whether you bow hunt, rifle hunt, or muzz hunt, you would have to have from August 25th thru October 1st. It is that unpredictable. I like the high kill rate with a rifle so I go that route. Others like the thrill of up close hunting. I think that is cool as hell! How do we fit it all in? I do not know? Maybe the rifle and bow tags stay the same and give more liberal dates? Keep the dates the same and increase bow tags? Muzz tags?

Something is right and maybe things can get better? Who knows? Just tossing out ideas as I wait for dinner buddy!

Good luck in whatever you decide!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-04-08 AT 08:09PM (MST)[p]I could not honestly tell you which season dates are the best as far as elk being vocal.I do know this it can change from year to year some years its very good hunting during the archery elk hunt dates most of the time the any weapon hunts can be great and I have heard the muzz hunts are the best.
Who knows it can vary so much from year to year. Draw the tag and just go do your best thats all you can do.Some archers kill huge bulls, some rifle hunters kill huge bulls, and some muzz hunters kill huge bulls.It takes skill alot of patience and ALOT OF LUCK.Its fun no matter what just apply and if you draw go do your best thats all you can do.
Wish everyone luck that draws Utah elk in 2008.
 
for donv and anyothers who believe more tags are in order i would wish them to investigate the wasatch unit which has over three hundred tags. is there a chance of killing a good bull 340+ yes however the sheer number of hunters on the mountains trims down the odds of a great bull anything over 360 in my opinion to increase tags on any unit will increase the amount of animals taken and further decrease the opportunity for a true monster. for those that are familiar with this unit you know that if you spend the time and effort you can kill a very respectable bull but it is not a pahvant or san juan this is due to the number of hunters on the mountain i have no complaints about the management of utah elk the numbers show the success that is to be had here and everyone wants the best so there must be wait involved naturally the longer the wait the better it will be so just hold off and be patient for your chance at a true trophy elk just my bit on this subject don eat me alive ok lol
 
"proutdoors, I like those ideas A LOT. Get rifle out of rut, and issue more primitive tags, this is a win win, MORE GUYS hunting, less elk taken, rifle hunters complain when more tags are given to bowhunters but they seem to forget that means much less competition for tags for them, so they get to hunt more."

I agree 100%! I don't even understand why this is 'debatable'. If the rifle hunt were to be moved ouot of the peak of the 'normal' rutting time, the success rate will decrease. At the very least the success rate would stay the same for a year or two while MORE big bulls would NOT be harvested, but after a few years of harvesting the 'excess' bulls the success rates WOULD decrease, making it a 'hunt' instead of a "how many decent bulls do I pass before I harvest an animal" outing. I know ktc and others don't like me saying that, but it is the TRUTH. The ONLY reasons the early-rifle hunt isn't 100% success on MOST units is over-selective hunters, lazy hunters, or utarded clueless hunters. Now, to give someone like ktc his props, to pass some good bulls and 'hunt' for the type of animal he and his wife took is impressive and commendable. But, to say it wasn't a "slamdunk" to get within rifle range of a 330+ bull is simply NOT TRUE.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Pro,
There has been NO debate on whether moving the rifle hunt out of the rut would lower the success and make room for more opportunity. The debate has been at whos expense does that opportunity come from. Do we take an opportunity away from EVERYONE to harvest a quality bull so the "bowman" can have more opportunity.

I would alot rather "pass on a buch of decent bulls" during a hunt looking for a quality bull, than hunt hard everyday for a decent bull to kill.

Have you thought about what impact moving the rifle hunt out of the rut would have on one of your current employers. He does kill alot of bulls with other weapons. But there is no doubt the majority of the "trophy bulls" you guys kill are with a rifle. The conservation tags would decrease in value in a hurry if the hunters would not be able to hunt with a rifle in the rut.

You are right that it is reletivley easy on the premium units in Utah during the rut to get a 330 bull with a rifle if you know the area and put in the time. But to kill something in the 360 plus range is a differant story. I really do not see the anything wrong with that. LIke I said before I certainly do not want to "sort through" raghorn bulls to find a 330 bull.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-05-08 AT 12:59PM (MST)[p]"You are right that it is reletivley easy on the premium units in Utah during the rut to get a 330 bull with a rifle if you know the area and put in the time. But to kill something in the 360 plus range is a differant story. I really do not see the anything wrong with that. LIke I said before I certainly do not want to "sort through" raghorn bulls to find a 330 bull."

brag,

I like how you think. Slam Dunk for 330? I would not say that, but like mentioned, if you know what you are looking at and know the mountain, then 330 is a very reasonable expectation. WITH A RIFLE! bow and muzz is different.

I personally like the ANY WEAPON tags. They give everyone equal opportunity. Like I have said over and over, if you want to bow hunt the ANY WEAPON dates, then apply for this tag. Especially if you want to bow hunt with rifle back up? If you want the archery, apply! I just don't think we can have it both ways. Archery tag, hand picked dates. and better odds?? Toss the rifle guys aside? JMO.

Edit: PRO, as always, I appreciate your kind words. I also admire your dedication. We just simply disagree on a few things, but that is ok. I like hearing a calm, dedicated, and reasnable archers concerns.
 
Berry,

Not everyone in Utah wants a 400 bull. Would they shoot one if it walked out in front of them, YES! But, they would apply and enjoy a chance to hunt in utah for a 330 or smaller bull on a few units. This has been "unscientifically" proven through several questionaires by the DWR and SFW. The vast majority of hunters would rather get a chance to hunt a mature bull rather than wait for a slim to NO chance of hunting a 400 bull. All I see as an "opportunist" is for a couple of Non Premium units to allow for them to have a place to apply for before they die! Do we have to manage the entire state for the goals of 10-20% of the hunting population? I do not think so.

Brag,

Opportunity does not equal less opportunity for rifle hunters. What it means is they can offer more tags to Bowhunters and muzzleloaders based on their lower success rates to meet the same number of harvest. (Take that to mean they can offer 100 Archery tags to kill 35 bulls. Rifle gets 90 tags to kill 85 bulls and muzzleloader gets 60 tags to kill 50 bulls). It is based on Biology and statistics, not emotion or feelings of what is "fair". It actually puts more guy's through the system without increasing the harvest.

Your comment about the guides and conservation tags suffering from lower prices and having to work harder IMO should Never be a consideration when manageing wildlife. We should not manage our wildlife with a care in the world of how the guides will "get by" or how much money SFW might lose from the results. It is the public's wildlife whether they help out with conservation or not. It does not belong to the guides or the conservation groups.

I do not believe we should touch the 5-8 premier units, they should stay the course of manageing for the very highest quality possible. I do beleive that there is room to create a lot more tags on some of the sub par units for the many who would love to hunt any good bull.
 
KTC,
You are right I would not call any hunt anywhere a "slamdunk". I can't speak to every unit but on the Southwest Desert you should expect to kill a 330 plus bull. Still no "slamdunk" but a very resonable goal. That is with early rifle only, on the late rifle I would'nt turn down a 330 bull the first day.

I had not really thought about the any weapon hunts really being any weapon. I just think of them as being rifle hunts, you make a good point on that avid bow and Muzz hunters can hunt this hunt, as well as their own.

I also agree that the archery hunters are lucky to have someone like pro, and a strong association to protect, and advance their rights. As hunters we all need strong representation to protect all of our differant interest.
 
Do you guys, who have actually burnt boot leather or horse shoes on a Utah LE hunt, think there is a huge misconception going on? When you get out in the hills and actually see and hunt the elk, it is sure a lot different than reading MM!?!?!?!

380 this, 400 that, monster here, monster there? But! Get on a unit 30 miles square and real in one of these 380-400 type bulls, with a bow, rifle, or muzz and it is tough! In 3 years we never exceeded 380 gross I will say that! Close, but not over!
 
SilentStalker,
I have said all along that the DWR could double tags on the bow and Muzzloader hunts and not hurt quality. I would like to see that. My point has been I don't want the any weapon hunt moved out of the rut just so we can increase the tags on the other hunts.

No I did not mean in my last post that we should manage our herds so the guides all get rich. It was just a differant angle I wanted to bring up. I would bet that a conservation anyweapon tag on the Pahvant that goes for around $40,000 now would sell for considerably less if the any weapon hunt was in November. You are right this shouldn't matter in the way elk are managed. The sad part about it for the state of utah, who's DWR is way underfunded this becomes part of the management. (look at the general deer season).

I like your last idea on managing elk for maybe 8-10 premium units and allow some other units to be managed for more opportunity. I just don't know how you choose which units. There will be people upset on any unit you choose to reduce quality on.

Arizona is transitioning toward more opportunity, maybe we should see how their change goes for a few years before we change Utah.
 
Pro nice to hear from You.

1.
?>I agree 100%! I don't even
>understand why this is 'debatable'.
>If the rifle hunt were
>to be moved ouot of
>the peak of the 'normal'
>rutting time, the success rate
>will decrease.?

Did you read any other posts or just part of mine. The debate is not about decreaseing harvest by moving the rifle out of the rut. The debate is about AS YOU SAY OPPORTUNITY. The debate and question are for, WHOM. PLEASE RESPOND.

2.
?while MORE
>big bulls would NOT be
>harvested, but after a few
>years of harvesting the 'excess'
>bulls the success rates WOULD
>decrease, making it a 'hunt'
>instead of a "how many
>decent bulls do I pass
>before I harvest an animal"
>outing.?

If you are hunting one of the top 5 or 6 units you may have what you are saying happen. But, only with some dumb luck, and knowing the mountain and the elk in the rut (this helps if you are a guide).

You say the quote above ?hunt? PLEASE EXPAND. You leave me thinking only people with a BOW "HUNT".

3.
?The ONLY reasons the
>early-rifle hunt isn't 100% success
>on MOST units is over-selective
>hunters, lazy hunters, or utarded
>clueless hunters.?

DID YOU REALLY MEAN THIS? Which are the ones you guide? Please define Utarded! No really. Cause I think that statement may be one.

4.
?Now, to give
>someone like ktc his props,
>to pass some good bulls
>and 'hunt' for the type
>of animal he and his
>wife took is impressive and
>commendable. But, to say it
>wasn't a "slamdunk" to get
>within rifle range of a
>330+ bull is simply NOT
>TRUE.?

Why is that not true? Were you there? Seeing is not killing.

Now I have a question for you, Why do the Muzz hunters not get the same number of tags as the Bow hunters?

Rock5150
 
KTC,

Yes, I think that there is a huge misconception on the number of 380 plus bulls in Utah. If you go into an elk hunt expecting to kill a 380 plus bull or nothing you will be very dissapointed. I have done this and it has ruined the experience of the hunt. The average hunters very seldem kill 380 plus bulls, I would guess less than 5 percent. If they are "officially" scored.

Mossback and the other good guides do kill a lot of monster bulls and give people the impression that they are everwhere. People need to realize the time and resources that go into killing one of these monster bulls
 
"In 3 years we never exceeded 380 gross I will say that"

That is because you are a lazy rifle hunter. :) haha.

The funny thing I have found is that 90% of the hunters who show up at my shop have no idea what their bull scores. No clue. The happiest guys usually have the smallest bulls. Of the 10% who know the score, only half are really happy. The most disappointed hunter I have dealt with showed up with a 393 bull and was mad it didn't score 400. Kind of sad that the level of happiness when killing an animal is tied to its' score.

In the end, those with high bonus points should be happy they didn't draw tags back in the late 90s and harvest the biggest bulls on the units which "only" scored 330.

-------------------------
www.sagebasin.com
-------------------------
 
Brag,

I understand where you are coming from. I must of misunderstood an earlier post!

Ty,

There is a huge misconception, but the reality is that anyone on any given hunt on almost any of these areas has the potential to dump a new state record. It is also a reality that most of those will shoot a bull in the 315-330 range on the any weapon hunt.

Rock,

I will not speak for Pro, but I can tell you that having been in on the 1st elk committee mtg's, The reason the muzzleloaders have less tags is #1 there were less muzzleloader hunters as compared to the bowhunters, and #2 the muzzleloaders are more successful in their harvest statistics. Hope that helps.

Chad
 
ktc

Man are you right on, i have helped on 5 hunts the last 4 years and are best score in all four years was 385 gross 379 net. I think "some" must be smoking something as they watch the good videos to think those kind of bull are real common.

Rock5150
 
Pro,
Just a quick question why are you trying to draw the archery tag this year if you think the dates will be changed in the near future?Does more people hunting worry you a little and you want out now before the big change?
Or do you want to pack that big bull off the mountain in 2008 and just cant stand to wait any longer?
 
SS
Thanks

As you said "WERE"
There are just as many putting in now. I am sure you know this so maybe a mute point.

AS to Statistics what a great way to lie, just my own issue. Personally I do not buy the stats i think that Bow hunters kill just as many elk as Muzz. Which comes back to one of my pet pevs not very good data.
So the real question is how to change it.

Rock5150
 
PO,

Man, talk about lazy! You got me pegged buddy!;-) By the way, nice bow moose my friend! Wow!

We never once tried to score the bulls we killed on the hoof. We waited for the wow factor. We knew what we wanted when we found him. That just sucks 393 was not good enough! That is a shame. I also think it is a damn shame that people scoff at a legit 360 bull! That is B&C people!

Mossback and others do very well! Compared to the average guy, he has lots of good guides out scouting and spending the time to find them. So when average guys draw, don't expect to match up with these guides. I laugh everytime I hear "380 or nothing!" Most of these guys shoot "nothing." Then they find something to complain about. It is Moss's fault, the moon, the scouters, the road blocks, the dates, the this, the that!

I had a good run on tags! It was some memorable stuff and I cannot say I have one damn complaint! It was fun. It was not what I expected though reading the bs stories!!
 
No sweat, the tag allocation is a mute point.

As for statistics, they can be read however you want for sure. I have been on a bunch of Archery elk hunts and 1 muzzleloader hunt. I have also been with a few rifle hunts. For you to say that the muzzleloaders and archers are equal is flat out not true. With a Bow you are limited to 50-60 yards at wild game if you are a great shot. With a muzzleloader 150 yards or more is not out of the question. There is a big difference between 40 yards and 90 yards when it comes to hunting rutting bull elk. The 2005 harvest #'s statewide for LE on the DWR webpage show an average of 45% harvest for LE Bowhunters and an average of 69% on the LE muzzy.

Are they both very effective weapons? Yes. Do they harvest the same number of elk? Not even close. I believe they both could do more tags due to their much lower success rates. Just my oppinon though!
 
SS

I never said harvest. I said Kill. My Personal thoughts are the number of killed elk by both or even all three weapons is much higher, than the harvest #. Just my opinion from what i have seen.

There is not doubt there is a big difference in ranges. Number of shots you may get debatable. Butt, probably not much.

I agree you could give more tags for both. I wish they would.

Rock5150
 
I know you are right, a few years ago before mandatory reporting the DWR listed 100% success on 2 hunts where I had friends who had tags that did not harvest an animal!!! I do however think the most recent #'s are pretty reliable with the Mandatory tooth/reporting. I would bet they get over 90% but am not sure?? What do you think? I wish they would do online mandatory reporting for all species, limited entry or general season. It could be online and more effective than their spot surveys they do??

There are sure a lot of options for changes that could work and be effective. The big question is do we mess with it or leave it as is? I for one would like to see a lot more tags for some areas and a continued premium approach for the real premium type areas! Thanks for the great discussion!

Chad
 
The problem I see is there will never be a way to accomodate every single wish. I like big critters because I am getting older and I see the end for me. I alway wanted at least book animals of the major western big game animals. I am getting there!;-) Does that make me a rotten ass? Sometimes I feel that way.

Some want meat and raghorns for fun. I think that is way cool to have that drive to hunt.

Some like the challenge of a bow? I have no gripe with that at all. I used to enjoy bow hunting. I learned a lot. Back then it was one more way to get out and after the deer! I could hit a bale of hay and a pie plate at 100 yards with my old FireFlite Express! Not very primitive, but a challenge no less.

Never muzz hunted. Went once and hated it. I still think muzz guys should have a hunt and they do!

I think things are great personally. More tags? Sure, a few! We have bow season, muzz season, and an Any Weapon season! They added the late season and quality continues to get better! The DWR should watch real close for an age decrease and monitor very close what happens. SS makes a great point. With computers now days every single tag should have a harvest report. It is assinine to think any less.

Now, how can I get that Henry deer tag? :)
 
SS

AMEN!!!!!!! I DO NOT SEE WHY IT IS NOT DONE WITH ALL SPECIES ALL HUNTS. Give people 48 hours to log it in or something like that. I would like some small changes to the prem units. like more bow and muzz tags instead of management tags.

I hunted Buff this year and i think if you did not send in your stuff and you got one you are dead meat, they would find out. I could be wrong but i think you even have to report you did not harvest and give other data like days hunted etc.

Thanks! Man i am very glad i got of my butt and started to chat. This has been a very good experience for me. Thanks to all who will stop and think about and say ways to better manage what we all LOVE.

Rock5150
 
What a great topic, that somehow has stayed fairly positive.

warbird asked me: "Pro,
Just a quick question why are you trying to draw the archery tag this year if you think the dates will be changed in the near future?Does more people hunting worry you a little and you want out now before the big change?
Or do you want to pack that big bull off the mountain in 2008 and just cant stand to wait any longer?"

I have NO desire to change the season dates on ALL the LE units, "my" unit is one of the 8-10 'premium' units I would like to see remain 'as is'. I also would be very happy keeping archery with the same dates as now, if the RIFLE hunt were moved out of September on all but the 'premium' units. I have a specific bull I want, he has been missed by two clients and I first laid eyes on this bull in 2003, he is a smart old bull and he is all I think about when I think of my upcoming hunt. He is getting to that age of where I am nervous he will start on the down-side soon.

Right now the tag allotments are 60% for rifle, 25% for archery, and 15% for muzzle loader. I would like to see all but the premium units be 50% rifle, 30% archery, and 20% muzzle loader. This, along with the RIFLE being moved out of September would allow for more tags to be issued with little/no negative impact on 'quality'.

ktc, using you definitions, Utah doesn't have a 'rifle' hunt, but lots of "any-weapon" hunts. What percentage of hunters who draw an "any-weapon" LE elk tag do YOU believe use 'primitive' weapons? I am willing to bet it is less than 5% of the "any-weapon" tags. So, to me it is a RIFLE hunt. Just has the deer hunt that opens the third Saturday od October is the "General Season Rifle Deer Hunt", not the "General Season Any-weapon Deer Hunt". Let's call it what it is.

I have NOT, nor do I have any intention of proposing something because it benefits me or my 'employer'. I am only interested in being involved in proposals that benefit the majority of hunters. I believe SS is correct in saying MOST hunters applying for a LE elk tag would be very happy taking a 330 class bull, so why are we managing MOST of the units for the small minority of hunters?

The proposal we are drafting affects FIVE LE units and leaves 24 units mostly unaffected by it. I would love to do more units, but I believe by doing just a few units, we can show how effective and popular it would be.

I also don't buy the hints at archers 'killing' as many as muzzy but 'harvesting' fewer. There is no evidence, NONE to support such claims. The archers KNOW when they make a poor hit, rifle/muzzy hunters often do NOT, and MANY don't bother going 200-700 yards to verify.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-05-08 AT 06:24PM (MST)[p]The DWR should have the following in the Proclamation, on the license, when you apply, in a letter when you are successful in drawing a tag, a kind reminder by telephone prior to the hunt, and in commercials on RoughinItOutdoors:

"HIT ONE YOUR DONE"

That should be the law (unenforceable most of the time) which would guide and direct most of the public.

KTC- Haha, just seeing if you are awake and sober.
As for the moose, well thanks, but he deserves all the credit for growing the antlers and becoming the new state P&Y record.

-------------------------
www.sagebasin.com
-------------------------
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-05-08 AT 06:32PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-05-08 AT 06:25?PM (MST)

Pro,
Thanks for replying. Sounds like you are on the right track to me. I like a lot of your ideas. Do we have to wait for the current elk management plan to run its course or can it be changed now? If we have to wait when is the plan up? Just curious if your were to pick 10 premuim elk units which would they be? I am all for opportunity, I just don't want much changed on the top tier units.

I am just curious as I have not hunted the Pahvant. With the way the calender fall this year and the Archery hunt ending on the 12th is that a big disadvantage as to say next year when it will end around the 17th. Is it worth waiting for?

My only problem with your proposals is I feel the muzzleloader hunter should have equal tags with the Archers. I feel that the five day rifle deer hunt has forced hunters to switch to muzzleloader hunting. I don't have any numbers but I would think that the people who truley love muzzleloader hunting only would rival that of the bow hunters. Personally I would like to see all three weapons have equal tags. The extra bow and muzzleloader hunters could take the place of the management hunters and you would not have to change the rifle hunt numbers.
Edit: One other problem I heard on one of the other threads, I would be very much against any proposal where hunters DO NOT loose points if drawn.

It has been a nice discussion with some very good ideas being thrown around. I would like to hear the opinions of everyone, whether you agree or disagree with me. There is no wrong answer to an opinion.
 
Pro,
Well I wish you luck on that big ol smart bull that you have your eyes on.I am sure there will be a backburner bull for ya to chase around down there if that bull gives you the slip.
Do you think they will issue more elk tags this year like they did in 2007?I have been asked this question alot lately and I have no idea on if the tag numbers will stay the same in 2008 or increase a little.
Thanks,
BIRDUM
 
"the new state P&Y record."

po, that is very impressive! No, it is not all about inches, but that is just down-right awesome!

PRO,

I will call the Any Weapon hunt what it is; ANY WEAPON. If only 5% use a bow or muzz, then does that tell you anything? This is about the minority of hunters getting more tags, more elk, more SUCCESSFUL notices. If those Any Weapon dates were so important to a bow hunter, then they would apply for that hunt. Those dates are less imprortant than the archery draw odds. I tend to get irritated when a bow hunter draws his elk tag, fails to connect, then turns around and gripes about the dates. Are the dates not posted in the proc? If dates are the difference between success and failure, then apply for the any weapon.

As a rifle hunter, I am not willing to budge for selfish reasons. There is a short time frame to get all the hunts in with all weapons. The Any Weapon hunts used to be the only hunts available. Then there was a push for bow and muzz tags and they expanded to include these hunts. I guess we are never satisfied and always want more, more, more?

brag,

I say if you want to draw go for it. Those dates will not make or break your hunt. I know the last 3 years during "the peak of the rut" I sure would not have wanted a bow in my hands. Seriously, there was no rut activity that would make a bow hunt great.

Good luck in whatever you decide!
 
PRO ? If you are going to take a shot at me Just do it don't come at me side ways. For as much as you post you sure have had little to say about this.

Are you going to answer my Questions or keep dodging them. Not one response to my post concerning your last post, I believe post 70 was yours and 72 was mine.

Pro ? W
hy should Bow get 30% and Muzz only 20% of the tags in your proposal. There are just as many Muzz hunters as Bow hunters. Or is it back to I don't have an agenda.

?I also don't buy the hints at archers 'killing' as many as muzzy but 'harvesting' fewer. There is no evidence, NONE to support such claims. The archers KNOW when they make a poor hit, rifle/muzzy hunters often do NOT, and MANY don't bother going 200-700 yards to verify.?

Pro? I am not hinting at it at all I am saying it flat out. Did you read what I said. Let me say it again a different way so you can understand. Lets say 10 muzz tags harvest rate 60-70%. 16 Bow tags harvest rate 40-50%. That would mean 6 to 7 bulls killed with muzz 7-8 bulls killed with Bow.
NOW HOW MANY BULLS WERE HIT AND NOT RECOVERED BY EACH GROUP EACH YEAR??????????? ARE YOU SAYING NONE!!

If 150 yards is at the end range of an ethical shot with a Muzz and 40 yards is at the end range of an ethical shot with a Bow. YOU TELL ME WHO GETS MORE SHOTS. 9DAYS 1 MONTH. There are not hard facts as you well now, you have to use reason. Pro do you have a 70 or 80 yard pin on your bow? Same as a muzz shooting at 200+ not real bright. But it happens every year even by (ethical hunters) not to speak about none ethical hunters.

You must assume all Muzz and Rifle hunters are in your category of lazy cause, they will not go look to see if they hit. No agenda or just plan ignorant. Please come to the party.

Are you going to answer my questions or just get in a pissing match?

Rock5150
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-05-08 AT 09:26PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-05-08 AT 09:13?PM (MST)

KTC,

I was just looking for an opinion of a bow hunter on how the dates will effect the hunt. I feel the same way that you do. I was curious if someone that was a lock to draw his dream tag and has fought for later dates for bowhunters would be would be willing to wait one year to get the 5 days later that next year will bring.

Thanks for replying. I sent my application in yesterday. I applied for archery same as the last eight years. I was with my brother in law a couple of years ago when he arrowed the Nevada P&Y state record. I have been hooked ever since. We were within 50 yards of him on four differant occasions before he got a shot off.
 
Rock,

You need to go take a deep breath! From my perspective you are the one looking for a pissing match??

The percentages are a set deal within the elk management plan. They will not be changed or adjusted until that plan runs it's course. Once it gets to that point, It could be looked at for different percentages etc. As it stood and probably still stands, there are more general season archers (deer/elk) than muzzleloaders. I am not sure why you are so hung up on that?

As for wound loss statistics, that is a tough call. Archers hit their share, there is no doubt that rifle and muzzy's do too. It seems there is a thread right now about crippling from the beaver rifle hunt. I know on the wasatch last year I talked to 2 different rifle hunters that had each hit one bull but could not find them. They had moved on. I have also found several while up in the hills during the Muzzy deer hunt. Not sure if they were rifle or muzzy kills. I have watched numerous rifle hunters shoot at elk on a different ridge or canyon and not follow up the shot to check for blood. Most of those bulls are not reported as being hit. The whole ethical debate is a whole other discussion that we could spend weeks on I'm sure. It is too bad "we" can't regulate ethic's. It would sure help!

The statement about who gets more shots, I am not sure what that is about? The reality is it takes more days in the field to harvest with a bow. It is a tougher hunt. Enough said. I wish we could all have a month each! I also wish we could all have the Mtn to ourselves without deer hunters, bear hunters etc. It just won't all fit in the calendar year.

A general question, Would we care if the hunts overlapped? I am thinking on one side it might be okay, on the other, it could lead to too much overcrowding. I wish i had all the answers. Unfortunatley all i have is my oppinions based on my own experience hunting these units. I like the discussion, I just hope we can keep it civil.
 
bragabit, my 8-10 'premium units are Pahvant, San Juan, SW Desert, Boulder, Beaver, Dutton, Panguitch Lake, Book Cliffs, Deep Creek, and Monroe in that order.

birdum, I DO believe they will issue more tags, possibly 5 more.

ktc, this is where you and I differ. You see what I am advocating as trying to get more archery tags, I see it as a wanting to get MORE TAGS PERIOD. LE archers in 2006 enjoyed 33.8% success rates, muzzy enjoyed 70.3%, RIFLE enjoyed 89.2%. I also feel safe in saying I believe archers are 'less selective' on animal size. These two factors say that archery tags could be increased with little/no negative effects on overall numbers and/or quality. I get hammered for being an 'opportunitist' by some, and hammered for being a 'trophy hunter/guide' by others. How is that possible? Could it be because I am neither. I am looking for balance, not 'extra' for my weapon of choice. I do NOT look at it as weapon type vs weapon type, that is bad for ALL hunters. I look for ways where opportunity can be increased while maintainiing high quality.

Rock wrote: "PRO ? If you are going to take a shot at me Just do it don't come at me side ways. For as much as you post you sure have had little to say about this."

Don't flatter yourself. If I were to take a shot at you, it would be obvious. If you will take a step back you will see I haven't posted on this forum on any topocs much the last few days. Every now and then I actually do other things than wait for YOUR questions.

"Why should Bow get 30% and Muzz only 20% of the tags in your proposal. There are just as many Muzz hunters as Bow hunters. Or is it back to I don't have an agenda."

What numbers do you have to show there are as many muzzy hunters as archers? I would love to see it. If you look at it from a 'scientific' viewpoint, muzzy hunters would get a larger increase percentage wise. Going from 15 to 20 percentage is a larger increase than going from 25 to 30 percent. I also go back to this NOT being about weapon type vs weapon type. Success rates and the overall numbers of different weapon hunters must be considered.

" Pro? I am not hinting at it at all I am saying it flat out. Did you read what I said. Let me say it again a different way so you can understand. Lets say 10 muzz tags harvest rate 60-70%. 16 Bow tags harvest rate 40-50%. That would mean 6 to 7 bulls killed with muzz 7-8 bulls killed with Bow.
NOW HOW MANY BULLS WERE HIT AND NOT RECOVERED BY EACH GROUP EACH YEAR??????????? ARE YOU SAYING NONE!!"

Let's use 'real' numbers shall we? IN 2006 there were 477 LE archery tags issued, with 161 successful hunters, there where 277 muzzy tags issued, with 195 successful hunters. That comes out as archers killed at 33.8% success rate while muzzy killed at 70.3% success rate, AND muzzy hunters killed 34 MORE bulls with 200 FEWER tags. That is ONE reason more tags can/should be issued to archers. The other major one is number of hunters in each weapon type. I would love to see a 33% to each weapon type, but that would stand a snowballs chance in hell of ever getting implemented. We have to deal with workable proposals here. I maintain that all weapon types hit and not recover animals, I also say the percentages are close to the same across the board.

"If 150 yards is at the end range of an ethical shot with a Muzz and 40 yards is at the end range of an ethical shot with a Bow. YOU TELL ME WHO GETS MORE SHOTS. 9DAYS 1 MONTH. There are not hard facts as you well now, you have to use reason. Pro do you have a 70 or 80 yard pin on your bow? Same as a muzz shooting at 200+ not real bright. But it happens every year even by (ethical hunters) not to speak about none ethical hunters."

I say MUZZY gets more shots since their 'effective' range according to you is 4 TIMES further. That means they will get roughly 4 TIMES more shot opportunities, then add in the added difficulty of drawing w/o being detected and I say muzzy hunters get at LEAST 6 times the opportunities to put animals down, plus they get better season dates. The proof is in the pudding. Muzzy hunters spend an average of 6 days in the field per hunter and kill at a 70.3% clip, while archers spend an average of 14 days in the field and kill at a 33.8% clip. Meaning, archers spend twice as many days in the field and kill at less than half the rate. How can one say archers get more shots? It makes no sense whatsoever.

FYI, my bow has five pins set for 10 yard increments. The first pin is set at 10 yards, do the math and see what my 5th pin is set at, and in the last 15 years I have NOT used the 5th pin in the field while taking several P&Y caliber animals. SInce you asked I figured I better answer so you don't make it look llike I am 'ducking' the question!

"You must assume all Muzz and Rifle hunters are in your category of lazy cause, they will not go look to see if they hit. No agenda or just plan ignorant. Please come to the party."

I love how you put words in my mouth. I am saying if a hunter in unwilling to get closer to take the shot in the first place, what are the odds the hunter will check for blood AFTER the fact? I am willing to bet I have a higher disdain for arhcers taking 80+ yard shots than MOST on here. It drives my bonkers. If I wanted to take 'long range' shots I wouldn't carry a bow. I know going in my odds of success are low, that is a major part of the appeal for me. I get paid good money to put hunters are big animals, and I know I stand a good chance of not putting one down for myself by doing it with a bow. I look forward to the challenge.

"Are you going to answer my questions or just get in a pissing match?"

I thought this thread was going along great, until YOU got your dander up. I thought it was/is a great topic. DOn't be so damn sensitive cowboy!

PRO


Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Pro

Thanks very much for your replay. I really me that.

I do not agree with you an may points you made but I am glad you made them. As both of us have said the stats can be deceiving. I still think bow kill as many as muzz just my though from the people I have hunted with and talked to. There is no hard facts this i know.

As to your pin set up that tells me a lot about you!!! All good I would think

As to my agenda comment. I would be ticked if you did not have an agenda, are you not the bow men pres. I am not saying I do not have an agenda, every one has an agenda, I do not think that is bad.

When if fact, I like what you are saying about opportunity units to some degree.

SS
You may be right by me getting to up tight. No good thought comes when you are emotional. Hens no good action.

SORRY TO ALL WHO MAY HAVE TAKING ME SIDE WAYS.
Pro I just really did want to know what you had to say. I love thought even if I do not agree.

Rock5150
 

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