Utah elk Debate

[proutdoors]

I am not the president of UBA, I am on the Board of Directors though. I like ot think I can wear different hats for different occasions. This proposal to take five units and 'modify' has NOTHING to do with UBA or SFW, or any organization. This got started on another forum about a year ago when someone asked how we can get more tags issued on LE units. I made the comment that if we would stop killing spikes and more the rifle hunt out of September we could issue a pile more tags with little/no negative impact on 'quality'. It has grown from there. We have met several times, and we have met with several conservation groups, the DWR, and discussed this online. We will be getting together in a few weeks if you are interested.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.

 

[fin little]

Why do we not hunt deer with rifles during the peak rut period? I think everybody understands the bucks would be to vulnerable and tags would need to be very restricted to maintain a desired age class. Why do we insist on hunting bulls with the most effective weapons with a majority of the permits when they are the most vulnerable? Whats the difference? DonV hit on it in one of his early posts on this thread. Most state wildlife depts understand that rut bull hunts with rifles are too effective to offer many tags if any. You can justify them however you want but the fact is they offer to big of an advantage from a management perspective.How about leveling the playing field a little for the elk, Like we have done for the deer.I'm just dont think the UDWR has much control of what happens in our state anymore. Keep after it Pro. just my opinion.

 

[proutdoors]

fin little, we met with the Board of Directors of SFW a few months back and got very good feedback from them. I won't put words in their mouths, but I didn't get the impression they would oppose moving the rifle hunt out of September on SOME LE units.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.

 

[Silentstalker]

Hey rock,

No sweat man, It is okay to disagree as we all do on a lot of ideas, statistics etc. Unfortunately all we have to go off of is the statistics that Utah collects. We HAVE to manage based off of tooth/age data, and wound/harvest statistics because that is what the elk plan calls for. The DWR is not to keen on changing that aspect any time soon.

I like how Pro said it is not a weapon vs. weapon type proposal. It is just a way to get more tags without negatively effecting the resource. In the end, that is what I think a lot of us want. A system with more tags without impacting the premium LE units. With that, I think I am out of this for a while. Have a great day!

Chad

 

[bragabit]

pro,

When does the current elk management plan end? Can there be any "real" changes before it does? Your list of premium units look good to me, but "my" units are included. I would like to hear the opinion of someone who's unit is not on your list. Is it still in your proposal to not use bonus points or use seperate bonus points for the opoportunity units? In my opinion that would be a major mistake. We allready have had the management hunts and the AR301 lets not give anymore "free point tags. I thouhgt that one of the goals to have hunts like the opportunity type hunts would be to "turn" the bonus points.
The issue about which weapon has the more hunters. I don't know the answer I don't think that any of us do. With the dedicated hunter program, and the five day rifle deer hunt the numbers are changing. Most guys do some of all the hunts, and are just looking for the best odds to go hunting.

Fin little,

You are right the bulls are vulnerable in the rut, it does effect the the number of tags that can be given. That has never been "debated" the debate has been if you take the anyweapon hunt out of the the rut who are you taking opportunity albiet small away from to give it to.

I was kind of hoping that ANTLERICK would post on here. After last year with the MRS. I think he may have a better prospective than some of us.

Sometimes we "including me" think what if is good for me is good for everyone, sometimes it is sometimes it is not.

 

[ktc]

I, ktc, swear on my life, to never, ever, never, never, ever, argue Utah elk management on MM. It causes unnecessary stress disorders and will never affect me and my elk hunting goals.

"ktc"

I am done. I just retired from this never-ending bitchfest. Some can go and appreciate what we have, others want to leave it alone for their turn, and others want whats best for them selves. Change is sometimes good, other times it is a disaster. Remember the "New Coke?"

Have at it boys. May some 380 bulls still run wild in the future. Some do now, but not to the extent of "380 or nothing!" If those words spill from your uneducated mouth, may bad luck ruin your hunt. Hopefully this misconception is not the end of great Utah elk hunting. As the great Miles Moretti once said, "Anyone with a sharp stick and a Utah elk tag can kill a 380 bull." Wow! This guy sits on the board (or once did) and he is that gawd damn dumb?

I had one hell of a time 3 years running. Wow! What a run! To those of you waiting patiently; good luck! This subject is nothing more than a royal pain in my ass.

Complain about 1 to 1 ratios, complain of deaths of elk of old age, complain about the dates, complain about percentages of kill and who does and does not follow up on their shots. Paint the picture that bow hunters are purists and the ultimate in sportsmanship. Get the rules changed to better fit your wants. Be sure to exaggerate your claims to better beef up your arguement. I DO NOT CARE! ktc-OUT!

 

[proutdoors]

bragabit, the current elk plan is good for a couple more years. I believe that I400 is in line with the current EMP and CAN be implemented next year. I also had one of the Wildlife Board members tell me at the last WB meeting they are NOT required to follow the EMP. It is a referrance only for them. "My" unit is a premium unit as well, I400 will not help/hurt me in any way since I will draw this year and then I will move on to LE archery deer applying. We have NEVER considered not using points, we have been tossing the idea of making it a true preference point system for these units however. These points could be transferred ONCE from the current pool of points, and if you draw a I400 tag you have to wait 5 years before applying for a LE tag, but not a I400 tag. This would allow people to draw as soon as the demand allows w/o mandating a specific draw waiting period, those who draw go to the end of the line, which builds in a waiting period dependant on the number of applicants ahead of you. I believe this would also help the draw on the LE units as people will have to choose which to build points in.

I agree in todays world people hunt with/where the odds are best quite often. If the archery/muzzy hunts become more appealing, more hunters will apply for those tags, that is a DESIRED effect of what we are proposing.

I400 will NOT benefit me as a hunter nor as a guide. If it did, I would question my own motives on it. UBA just changed the season dates for LE archers on LE spike only units, I was a strong supporter of this and helped get it implemented, yet I have NO desire to apply/hunt on any of the spike only units myself.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.

 

[bragabit]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-06-08 AT 11:28AM (MST)[p]KTC,

Don't give up yet! When I saw this thread I was hoping you would get involved. Having the chance you did to spend the middle of last Sept. with the MRS. must have been awesome. Great weather, bugling Elk, limited pressure, and a rifle in her hands. I hope to have the same experience in the near future with my wife. I just sure in the hell it is not in Nov. When the experience will be severly diminished.

In my opinion you have been right on the money in all of your arguements. Unfortunetly I think the minority of hunters make the most noise and therefore get the most done.

I have had about all I can take on this subject also, same argument over and over.

 

[bragabit]

We have NEVER
>considered not using points, we
>have been tossing the idea
>of making it a true
>preference point system for these
>units however. These points could
>be transferred ONCE from the
>current pool of points, and
>if you draw a I400
>tag you have to wait
>5 years before applying for
>a LE tag, but not
>a I400 tag. This would
>allow people to draw as
>soon as the demand allows
>w/o mandating a specific draw
>waiting period, those who draw
>go to the end of
>the line, which builds in
>a waiting period dependant on
>the number of applicants ahead
>of you. I believe this
>would also help the draw
>on the LE units as
>people will have to choose
>which to build points in.
>
>Pro,

I like the idea of the I400. I will NOT support any LE elk hunt that does NOT use and TAKE the current bonus points and instate the waiting period. If there is the demand that you claim for these tags there would not be any problem filling all of them. What would be the benifit to not using the current bonus points? That is what would help the draw odds in the current system. I would also like to see the Oak creek south unit put in the proposal before they open it up to open bull.

 

[Silentstalker]

Well said KTC!

I too grow weary of this discussion but can see that during this one in particular I have learned a few things, hopefully it will open my eyes to a few things I had not previously been open to. In turn I hope to have helped others see "my Idea" of the "perfect" situation! Good luck to each of you and enjoy the offseason! It is time again to regroup, apply and start dreaming! Have a great one!

Chad

 

[bobcatbess]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-06-08 AT 01:29PM (MST)[p]JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

YOU BOYS ALREADY KNOW HOW I FEEL ABOUT THIS!!!

MY SCULL IS THICK ENOUGH I AIN'T CHANGING MY MIND ON IT!!!

THERE IS NO WAY 1000000000000000000000000000 & 1 TARDS CAN KILL TROPHY BULLS IN LE UNITS EVERY FRICKEN YEAR!!!

SUCK IT IN!!!

WHEN Pro GETS HIS NEW UNITS GOING I'M HOPEING IT WILL RELIEVE SOME OF THE PRESSURE ON EXISTING LE UNITS!!!

HOPEFULLY Pro WILL BE ABLE TO SATISFY ALL THAT ARE NOT CURRENTLY HAPPY WITH LE UNITS TODAY!!!

HEY ktc!!!

I'D START SCREAMING IF I WERE YOU!!!

JUST KIDDING,YOU'RE MAN ENOUGH TO SAY YOU TOOK YOUR TURN & NOW ITS SOMEBODYELSES TURN!!!

I HIGHLY RESPECT YOU FOR THAT!!!

WISHED MORE COULD SEE THE BIG PICTURE!!!

((( EDIT!!! I TOOK SOME 0'S OFF!!! }> }> }> !!! )))

***** NOTE:::***** NOT EVERY TARD CAN HUNT TROPHY BULLS AS OFTEN AS THEY WANT IN UTAH,THE UTAH POINTS SYSTEM SUCKS,BUT DON'T "F" WITH MY POINTS UNTIL I BLOW WHAT I'VE GOT,THEN MAYBE WE BETTER DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT,LOL!!!

bobcat OVER & OVER & OVER & OVER & OUT!!!

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

 

[ktc]

Good luck to EVRYONE of you! I hope you get the tag, weapon, and experience of your dreams! I truly mean that! brag, I would love to see you and your wife go on a very memorable hunt together! It was awesome my friend! Please tell me about it when it happens!

 

[proutdoors]

"I like the idea of the I400. I will NOT support any LE elk hunt that does NOT use and TAKE the current bonus points and instate the waiting period. If there is the demand that you claim for these tags there would not be any problem filling all of them. What would be the benifit to not using the current bonus points? That is what would help the draw odds in the current system. I would also like to see the Oak creek south unit put in the proposal before they open it up to open bull."

We haven't made a decision either way on the point system at this point. I tend to believe we will end up keeping it under the current system however.

I LOVE your idea on the Oak Creek South unit being included in I400, I'll be sure and do some research on it.

I don't tire of discussing elk/deer managemnt issues when they are as civil as this one, EVER! I learn many aspects/angles of what hunters want or hope to see happen. It enables those who make proposals know where MANY different people stand on issues.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.

 

[bragabit]

Pro,

Maybe if you get a couple of minutes you could start a new post outlining the basics of the I400 proposal. I know there was post couple of months back about it. Please refresh us! Again I would like your committee to recondider ANY option that does not use the current bonus point system.

Bobcat,

If the I400 proposal included the unit you have built all of your points for would your opinion be differant?

 

[rock5150]

Pro
Please let me know i would love to come to the meeting and hear what has to be said and give input if appropriate.
time, place, contact info what ever.

Rock5150

 

[proutdoors]

bragabit, when I get a moment I will post a Reader's Digest version of I400.

you asked, "If the I400 proposal included the unit you have built all of your points for would your opinion be differant?"

No, I would simply switch which unit I apply for, although I will draw BEFORE this is implemented.

Rock, I'll let you know when we get it set up. Any/all are welcome to attend and 'add' to the proposal. The more the better.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.

 

[bobcatbess]

HEY brag!!!

ME & Pro HAS HASHED THIS CRAP OUT SINCE THE FIRST TIME WE MET HERE ON MM!!!

THE UNIT I WANT TO DRAW & HUNT IS NOT INVOLVED!!!

MY FIRST FEW POINTS WERE EARNED ON A LE UNIT THAT NOW IS PRETTY MUCH JUNK!!!

THE UNIT WAS A GREAT UNIT!!!

THEN CHANGES WERE MADE!!!

NOW THE UNIT IS IN SERIOUS SHAPE!!!

SO I MOVED CAMP!!!

I'M NOT ENEMIES WITH Pro LIKE ALOT OF YOU THINK!!!

WE'VE BASHED & HASHED FOR YEARS!!!

I'M HOPEING HE GETS THE UNITS UP & GOING & EVERYBODY WILL BE HAPPY!!!

THERE ARE MANY THINGS I DON'T AGREE WITH IN THE CURRENT POINT SYSTEM,BUT I'M TO FAR IN IT NOT TO KEEP DOING WHAT I'M DOING!!!

I'M A FEW YEARS AWAY,I JUST HOPE THERE IS SOME QUALITY LEFT WHEN IT FINALLY HAPPENS!!!

I CAN EASILY HARVEST PISSCUTTERS WITHOUT AN LE PERMIT!!!

IF & WHEN I FINALLY PULL THE THE TAG,YOU WON'T WANT TO BE AROUND ME IF THERES NOTHING LEFT BUT PISSCUTTERS!!!



THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

 

[antlerrick]

bragabit,
I have been watching this post on and off and haven't felt like getting in too deep as I am just on the mend from my ankle surgery last week and the drugs may have let me say something I shouldn't, so if I say something that somebody else may have said previously, or say something to upset somebody from their post, I'll apologize now.
I agree with ktc on many of these issues, as we have kind of lived the same elk hunting saga except on different units.
My opinion on the rifle hunt in the rut is that the experience that you get by hunting rutting bulls in something that you cannot replace or ever forget. I think that part of the limited permits during this season is to allow the lucky hunters the opportunity to live this dream. I drew a LE archery permit 5 years ago, and honestly had the most wonderful hunt of my life. I hunted my butt off, but passed on bulls that I previously told myself I would shoot, just because I knew I could probably do better, and also that when I shot one, the memories would be over. I had the fortune to hunt every day of my hunt, which if I remember right was 24 days, and I would hate to think that I would have missed any one of those days. I only got to actually experience the "rut craze" the last day of my hunt (Sept 12) and that day alone was so unbelievable that I have a hard time even telling someone what happened as most would flat out call lme a liar. Needless to say the story will never come on MM's.
My daughter drew early rifle 2 years later and what a rush to take her out and have her experience the thrill of hearing the screaming bulls, seeing them push their cows, and fight amongst themselves, and come to a call, ready for battle, or with love on their mind. I feel she got to also experience something that only comes with the rut hunt. The timing also allowed a pregnant young girl to have the animal come to her versus her having to do something that she was unable to physically do at that time in order to have the experience.
Now this last year, my wife, who is pretty much limited to a wheelchair, draws that same permit, and now wants to take a bull of her daughter's quality, being even less able to physically participate in the hunt. But again, here is the rut, here are the bulls out chasing cows, again giving someone the chance to experience something that is out of this world. She could have shot a nice bull from the truck a number of times, but wanted the experience of taking a great bull, and had the faith in me to make it happen...(what pressure that was for me). We find the bull she wants to try for, but it is where she can't get to in the truck, so she decides to sacrifice the pain and misery of hiking across a meadow to a location where I think she can kill the bull from if I can get it there. A 600 yd walk is nothing for the greatest share of us, but for her it meant a week or more of uncontrollable burning pain, but she wanted to do it...and as you all know, she did it and how! She was an inspiration to us all that day.
Anyhow, why and how did it happen? The rut....
Neither my daughter or my wife would have had these memorys if they were unable to hunt that period.
To summarize, Yes, I would love to hunt monster bulls again, but I honestly want everyone who has been willing to wait patiently to have the same thrills and experiences we have had. I would hate to see the rut hunt moved just to give a few more people a chance to shoot a bull, during a time that is a lot less excitinig and yes, a lot harder to kill a great bull.
If it can be arranged to have some units changed without changing the premier units, that would be a good compromise, but I feel that the rut hunt is what most people are wanting when they draw this fabulous tag.
Sorry to ramble on but there are a lot of emotions and thoughts on my mind about these hunts and my main wish is that everyone who loves hunting elk would have the chance to hunt monster bulls in the rut and make memories forever..
a*r

 

[bragabit]

Antlerick,

Thank you so much for the reply!

Congradulations to you, your Mrs., and daugher on tremendous bulls.

I just want to add one thing people forget, the weather in September is also great cool nights and warm days. A whole lot more pleasant for families to camp and enjoy that in Oct. or Nov.

 

[antlerrick]

I, like ktc, feel that I have had my turn and will probably never get the chance again, but sure like to see those who finally get their chance.
Also like ktc, I am now looking for the dream of drawing a unit that would give me the opportunity to hunt for a mega buck!!
Again, would I like them to make the changes so that I can get there quicker, but have less quality to choose from? NO..
If that means I'll never draw, so be it, but I still have the opportunity to at least go on those units and see the incredible animals that are being managed for this quality..

but if there is a chance for more opportunity due to good numbers of animals, or more units available, with the same chance for quality, bring it on!!!
Good luck to all in the draws this year...
a*r

 

[Silentstalker]

Thanks for Posting Rick, You have a very good grasp on things and your thoughts and ideas are very much appreciated.

Pro,

Are you guy's going to meet in January or Feb?

 

[proutdoors]

Chad, I would like to get together in January, just got to get a few things cleared off my slate first. I'll be sure and post time/place ASAP.

Bessy, thanks for the props. What I like about many in the hunting 'community' is we can strongly disagree on many things yet remain civil and have respect for each other. I hope you get lulcky and draw your tag this year!

Rick, nice stories. If my math serves me correct I had an AR301 tag the same year as your hunt and I had the most amazing day of hunting the same day as you mentioned. I have spent 100's of days in the field over the last several years in September, and that day was unbelievable. I have never heard so much vocalization from so many elk ALL day long in my 25+ years of being addicted to elk hunting. Oh, and I let the air out of a great bull at 4:30 pm that day. He is my best bull to date, but hopefully not for many more months.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.

 

[antlerrick]

Pro,
it is magical when that peak of the rut happens and you happen to be sitting right in the middle of it. The worst thing about that day was that even though we had the video camera, the elk were coming so fast and so close, we were too busy calling, trying to keep from getting run over, and looking for the bull we were after, that we didn't get it turned on when it went crazy. And I also let the air out of the bull we were chasing at 10 minutes before dark. And to top it off, watched him walk 40 yards away and tip over right where we had been sitting 10 minutes earlier! Pure adreniline Rush!!!! and I don't mean the Jazz!! ha..

 

[DonVathome]

Wow this thread took off over the weekend.

If I missed any questions please let me know. Like I said before as a NR I do not think I really want more tags, since by the time they trickle down to me it will mean maybe 1 more tag, with 100 guys going for my hunt that is not a big help!

I realize with all the new apps, and the 5 year wait after drawing, I am only going to hunt Utah once in my lifetime, bar a ton of luck. I think I would rather wait a little longer and have that great hunt.

Good isights to everyone and thank you Utah for such a great elk herd. I studied tooth data preparing for my app this year, unreal. Most units have average ages several years ahead of the oldest elk I have every killed!

I do have a question, do you think muzzleloader hunters or bowhunters get more rut to hunt? I am debating which tag to go for.

 

[antlerrick]

My opinion on who gets the most rut to hunt, archers or muzzys is that the archery "may" hit the first day or two depending a lot on weather, final dates of the hunt, and the year. I've seen it get going that last few days of the archery hunt, and I've seen it not really get going until near the end of the rifle hunt. I think that the muzzle hunt is going to have more "rut" days than the archery. And again, the muzzy hunt is more on the tail end of the rut so reactions are somewhat different -vs- the beginning of the rut.

 

[bragabit]

Don,
I would say that a majority of years the muzzy hunters see more of the rut. Antlerick is right that the tail end of the rut is totally differant from the first. They may be rutting hard in the muzzy hunt but don't expect to call the herd bulls away from their cows. Pay close attention to the dates this year the archery hunt ends on the 12th and the muzzleloader hunt starts on around the 22 or 23. Next year every thing will fall way back the archery hunt will end about the 17 and the muzzleloader hunt will not start until the 29th. These dates would make my decision

 

[DonVathome]

Thanks, I did not know muzzy hunt was a little earlier this year.

 

[jims]

I had a UT muzzy tag this year and can tell you it was the most challenging hunt I've ever had in my life (and I've hunted mt goat, bighorn, etc. The warm temperatures, full moon, etc only complicated things. For the most part the elk were only active about an hour on each end of the day and the rest of the day I spent hiking or twiddling my thumbs!

I also noticed that the dominate herd bulls were nearly impossible to call in. Most had heroms of cows and had no interest in cow calls or bugles. It seemed like the only reason they bugled was because they were being social. I'm not sure if this was because the rut was slowing down or the bulls were educated...possibly both?

If you think about it the bulls have been hunted over almost a month during archery and a couple weeks with rifle before the muzzy season opens. Do you think 5 to 8 year old bulls have been educated by the time muzzy season opens each year?

The bulls often headed into the timber right after daylight and didn't come out until almost dark so there was very little time to effectively hunt them each day. If I had a rifle in my hands it may have been more effective hunting them in the trees? I can tell you that even a muzzy w/1x scope isn't all it is cracked up to. It was nearly impossible to get off shots close to dark or in the trees.

I can see a definite advantage to hunting the early rifle season with a 4x scope! I know for a fact a guy could be a lot more picky during the rifle season than muzzy or archery! The trick is drawing one of those early rifle tags!