Footing arrows

GotBowAz · Nov 26, 2013

Have any of you ever footed your arrows? I can see a great benefit to FMJ with the HIT inserts by strengthening the business end of the arrow. It could give a little more FOC as well. It is suggested to install footings anywhere from an inch and a half to 2 inches long. Some are even double footed for additional strength. I tried it and they may work just fine out of a fixed rest such as a whisker biscuit but they do not work well out of a drop away rest. My arrows were not hitting consistent groups. It only added 75 grains to the front of my 340 FMJs so im pretty sure my spine is still good. So then it was suggested to have the footing in front of the drop away rest. Two inches past my rest seems awful long to me. I'm at one inch. Anyone shoot arrows over an inch past their rests? Any experience with footing with compound bows?

So far I dropped the idea and I ordered the eastman adaptor rings for 340 FMJ. Rather than foot for added FOC weight im going to add brass inserts and play with that idea as well.

GBA

31incher · Nov 27, 2013

Well if your wanting more foc without externally footing the then why not internally foot them? This is what I have done. I shoot a 250 spine victory vap. I use the firenock oversert and added about 90 grains of a thread rod (all thread) in the inside. The overserts over lap the all thread by like a an half inch and it makes the arrow crazy strong. I know you can't do this with a fmj but if your really wanting more foc you need to lose the fmj. You need a lighter arrow shaft and stiffer spine so you can stack the weight on front. The weight is much more efficient on the front of the arrow. My current setup is a 510 grain arrow with 18% foc going 300fps. These arrows are crazy accurate and have plenty of momentum to get the job done.

3blade · Dec 3, 2013

Glue the inserts in with jb weld. I hear it makes em close to indestructible. 31incher's right, it is going to be hard to get very much added foc with the fmj though.

GotBowAz · Dec 3, 2013

The problem with FMJ HIT insert technology is the BH sits against the shaft unless you use the carbon collars which is what I will be going to now. Footing is a way of making the end of the arrow stronger so that it will not damage the arrow shaft where the BH butts up against it. But as I found out footing does not like drop away arrows rests unless the foot is beyond the rest itself, which means a longer arrow. So I will go with the collar and boost my FOC up with Brass inserts. By the way, you can get brass HIT inserts for FMJ to boost FOC up to as high as 100 grains.

I could see where JB weld could be a good way to glue in the inserts, might add a touch FOC too, but I haven't had the inserts slip. I have had a field point damage the end of the shaft when I hit a piece of rebar I had holding a target. The field point bent slightly as a result of the business end of the arrow not being strong enough to handle a side load. I doubt I would have had that issue if the arrow had been footed. Doing my little experiment with my arrows and footing it got me to wondering if anyone shoots an arrow 2 inches past their arrow rest.

GBA

31incher · Dec 5, 2013

What is your set up? Have you ran the numbers threw any archery programs? You can only add so much weight before you become underspined. This is why I suggested another arrow because you can get a stiffer spine and add more weight to the front and still have the same overall arrow weight but with higher foc. I know you can buy brass inserts but a fmj is probably the worst arrow to get higher foc

GotBowAz · Dec 5, 2013

Bow is 67lbs 28" draw, I have 28.5" 340FMJ's, dropping from 125 grain BH'ds down to 100 grain BH'ds and adding 75 grain brass HIT with a carbon colar. Im currently at 477 and will boost to about 528 grains. I should be spined plenty stiff yet.

Curios, why do you believe FMJ's are the worst to get FOC with?

I have not run this through any archery charts and its probably a good idea that I do. However I believe I am over spined with current set up so I dont think adding 50 grains to FOC will weaken or under spine the arrow. It wont hurt to run it by a program first.

GBA

31incher · Dec 5, 2013

I shouldn't say worse... There is just a lot better choices. The less overall weight of the shaft and more weight up front = more foc. It all depends on how much foc your looking for. Fmj are naturally heavy shafts which takes away from foc. Get a lighter shaft ( something like 8.7 gpi) 300 spine and you could almost double your foc ( add more weight up front) and use much more efficient the weight of your arrow. A 500 grain arrow with 20% foc will far out perpetrate a 500 grain arrow with 8% foc.

GotBowAz · Dec 5, 2013

31incher, thanks for your input. Now I understand what you mean by your thoughts on FOC with a lighter arrow. I am looking for a little FOC but I am more concerned with over all arrow weight. I want the penetration momentum a heavier set up can give me. I am not concerned about speed. But back to the original reason I posted. I was more concerned with making the business end of the FMJ?s stronger. The HIT leaves at least 3/8?s to a 1/2 of an inch of hollow shaft that the BH butts up against. 1 method to make it stronger is footing/sleeving arrow shafts two inches over the front end of the arrow. Another is using a carbon collar. I'm just curios who is using footed arrows out of compound bows and if they are leaving their arrow 2 inches out past the arrow rest just to do so and what if any is their experiences with it.

BigPig, you like to play around with your arrows from time to time, have you ever footed or played around with it?

This arrow actually appears to be triple footed

GBA

BigPig · Dec 6, 2013

Played around yes, but never seriously and never committed to it. Never saw a need. Like 31incher mentioned, I shoot an overall light arrow (GT Velocity) in .300 spine with a good bit of point weight. 125 head and 20 gr insert weight. I like the results.

tracker12 · Dec 6, 2013

I foot my carbon arrows that I use for stump shooting with my Traditional gear. It will definitely protect the business end from damage. There is a pretty good youTube video on the stength of a footed arrows. The guy shoots a cinder block at 10 feet and the carbon arrow is undamaged. I use FMJ's in my compound but have not footed any.

3blade · Dec 6, 2013

LAST EDITED ON Dec-06-13 AT 11:42PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-06-13 AT 11:41?PM (MST)

I've used nock collars behind a 50 gr insert with a 150 grain head to get 20% foc. But they are standard 5/16 diameter arrows without the HIT insert. I never had the end of the arrow fail. I've had broadheads bend/break and aluminum broadhead ferrels break and the arrow break from side impacts.

A few years back I had things go wrong and hit the spine of an elk with this setup with a single bevel broadhead. The arrow stayed together until the elk fell on it and the arrow snapped from the side impact.

I know a traditional guy that uses a 3" footing over an axis shaft, unfortunately discontinued, with a brass insert and 200+ gr single bevel head. His overall arrow weight is around 650grs. He shoots through cement blocks with no damage but that arrow is only going 170 to 180 fps.

Doc Ashby says that internal footings are much stronger but I have never tried it.

31incher · Dec 7, 2013

I think you missing my point a little. I was just using 500 grains for an example. I'm not concerned about speed either. It's almost an oxymoron to use efoc and speed in the same sentence. I don't care if it's 500 grains or 800 grains...The weight of the arrow is much more efficient with the weight on the front of the arrow. Hell you could drop to a 250 or 200 spine and 500 grains on the front if you want too. There is a big difference between a 700grain arrow shaft with 100 grains up front then there is with a 300 grain shaft with 500 grains up front. But in order to do that you need a lighter but stiffer shaft. Your momentum will be the same in the numbers but the higher foc shaft will perpetrate far deeper every time.

GotBowAz · Dec 8, 2013

31incher, actually I got your point completely and I never should have mentioned anything about speed. I was just making sure it was understood that speed wasnt a concideration. I do understand what your saying about FOC.

Although I admit I dont completly undestand why you can get deeoper pentitration with an arrow that has more weight up front then the same weight arrow all the way through it I have done enough of my own testing to see that FOC does penitrate much deeper. However I understand more of the accuracy reasons then penitration. A heavy FOC on a light arrow will correct really quick, much quicker than a heavy arrow all the way through. Maybe this has to do with the penitration as well?

Is there a point of deminishing returns though? I dont know, just asking the question. So long as the arrow is stiff enough spine it should be good.

3Blade, The HIT on FMJ's will leave about a 1/2 inch left over at the tip of the arrow next to the FP or BH without protection from damage unless it is footed from the outside. I know it can be damaged, I have done it. There is no way to foot or make the interanal part of that end stronger unless there is an adapter that slides into the shaft with an additional inch of leght to the arrow that the FP can screw into. I have looked on line for such an adapter and cant seem to find one.

GBA

31incher · Dec 9, 2013

The best way I can explain why foc will pent rate deeper than overall arrow weight is the weight on the front is all uncompromised weight. When the arrow hit something like an animal the arrow shaft flexes a ton which is all lost energy. Essentially the arrow is pushing the bhs threw the animal. When you use high foc what happens is the bhs pull the arrows threw the animal. Another way of looking at it is if you want to drive a nail into a board faster... do you put more weight in the handle of the hammer or the head?

3blade · Dec 9, 2013

>>3Blade, The HIT on FMJ's will leave about a 1/2 inch left over at the tip of the arrow next to the FP or BH without protection from damage unless it is footed from the outside. I know it can be damaged, I have done it. There is no way to foot or make the interanal part of that end stronger unless there is an adapter that slides into the shaft with an additional inch of leght to the arrow that the FP can screw into. I have looked on line for such an adapter and cant seem to find one.

yes, I am aware of that and I have tried these arrows, they break to easy for me so that was the end of that experiment. But, why not foot the fmj with a piece of aluminum shaft like in the pic above. Leave the 1 to 2" out in front of the rest, as long as they are spined right it should work fine.