Ppint Banking

J

jb3006

Guest
Did anyone make their application strategy with the thought of point banking coming back? I know with the 5 year structure being debated right now this is a serious topic. From everything you read or hear they wanna do something about point creep and this is the big one that keeps cropping up. Anyways I know that some of us are planning on this and wanted to know what this year looked like for guys.

Maybe this years a good one to get a tag as everyone is relying on point banking?
 
I'm thinking I'll be very unlikely to use "point banking" or "point bidding". With point banking, you have to use the "points required, plus one" in order to draw. With the inevitable increased demand for low-to-mid tier hunts, the "points required" will most likely become a larger number than needed in the past, by let's say one or two points. Or it could be even worse. And of course you DO NOT GAIN a point for that year. So just guess-timating, let's say somewhere down the line you have 10 PP and use point banking to draw a unit that today requires 3 points to draw. You will get your tag, but may end up with let's say only 3-4 points remaining for the next year. Therefore you may not be able to draw that unit again for several years.

Point creep in all mid-tier and lower-tier units for several years, is the most likely result. Doubtful that many guys holding 15+ points will use PP banking. Thus PP creep for the high-demand hunts, especially for NR's, will probably not slow down for a long, long time, if it is even affected at all.
 
I am not a fan of point banking but I have been told by CPW that it is seriously being considered again. To answer your question, I did not cash in my deer points this year due to multiple reasons: full moon 3rd season, number of trophy bucks still down, possibility of point banking and who knows what else may be instituted season structure-wise in the 5 year plan.
 
It is seriously being considered, although it's a terrible idea. How anyone thinks it will help point creep is beyond me. If you have the same number of limited licenses available and the same number of applicants, you will be issuing the same number of preference points. They will just be reallocated to those people who have chosen to draw limited licenses more freqently than the point hoarders.

So it rewards those who don't understand the basic math necessary to calculate how many years it will take to draw an extremely limited license, and punishes those who chose to hunt more frequently rather than chase a pipedream.
 
Point banking is an absolutely terrible idea. Wanna screw the system up more this will do it. I know several hunters in favor of banking but they are also the same people with a chit ton of points but what they fail to look at is once their points are down how much of an issue they will be having then to draw. They are looking short term rather than long term. There are much better options available to reduce point creep. I for one am absolutely irritated with our point system even though it is a true point system but the way they screw the general application hunter is ridiculous. We have a few points in our family but once they are gone we have no intention of getting back into the game. Way to many great hunts to be had which take zero or 1 point and some on left over tags.


"Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway."
 
I agree with ColoOak. Point banking is a HORRIBLE idea! It won't help point creep in the extremely tough draw units and it will only make point creep skyrocket in easier to draw units!

Hunters can use their pref pts to draw several tags with their pref pts rather than just 1 tag as it currently stands. I'm shocked that they are even considering bringing this bad boy back!

If you have a chance to comment be sure to lobby for requiring those that draw landowner tags to burn their pref pts. That should have been done years ago! A chunk of the overall tag pool is issued as landowner tags and as it currently stands these don't burn any pref pts!
 
Jims, you nailed it with the LO tags. That was my biggest comment to CPW. This will really come to play when they begin their added 5% tag grab from the general pool.

"Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway."
 
Jims: Don't you mean you want them to burn their points if they obtain/buy a LO tag outside the draw? If they apply for one indside the draw, don't they already burn their points if they draw?

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
I'd imagine jims means "anyone redeeming a landowner voucher" should lose their points.

Such an undertaking would raise plenty of questions on how to do it. For instance if a guy with say 20 pp's redeemed a cow elk voucher, would that erase his PP's? Or how about in cases where the corresponding public draw hunt requires just a couple points, would you only take a specified number of points, or take them all? If no then how many, and based on what? How about for redeeming vouchers in which the limited-draw public tags can be drawn as 2nd choice....would those erase points too? How about the private RFW tags....would taking one of those hunts erase your PP's? Lots to think about, could be a mess.
 
Could be a mess but then again it could clean up the PP system.

"Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway."
 
I will have 15 deer points after this draw.. As most of us we are thinking about different ways to maximize our hunting opportunities. I am torn...was looking to get on one of the hunts that was happening in 2005-06....but seems those days are done for now....

I have thought about how point banking if it came back I might be able to do two great hunts insteads of one super hunt....just thinking about how to deal with the hand dealt me...

I know point banking will drive up the middle point hunts...if it does come back might wait a year or two until the smoke clears to see what is happening...
 
Txhuner58 is right....currently applicants that draw tags in the landowner tag pool, RFW, as first choice tags in the regular draw use pref pts. Left over, 2nd choice, landowner voucher, and RFW tags bought from brokers/landowners currently don't use pref pts.

With the current system hunters can purchase landowner vouchers or RFW tags every year in premium elk units like 2, 20, or 201....if they have $ or know the right person....and not burn any pref pts. It currently takes a lifetime + to draw many of these same tags in the regular draw.

It should be plain, simple, and equal....any tag drawn as first choice or purchased as a landowner voucher/RFW tag for male species (buck, bull, or ram) should burn pref pts....end of story!

The Colo pref pt system could definitely use a clean up job to make things consistent.
 
I have always went for the 2-5 point units that aren't as drastically effected by the point creep, it seems to me that all point banking will do is create major point creep in these type of units.
 
point banking will not be coming to CO any time soon. When they tried it before they realized what a waste it was to stopping point creep. It is a failure will not change anything except clearing out the middle of the road guys by increasing the easy to draw units. Will only piss people off more cause they will end up using 5,6,7 points on a hunt that normally took 1 or 2.

Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"


Let me guess, you drive a 1 ton with oak trees for smoke stacks, 12" lift kit and 40" tires to pull a single place lawn mower trailer?
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-07-14 AT 09:18PM (MST)[p]Back to the voucher thing.....curious why to exempt cow/doe vouchers that require public draw hunters burn their points to draw? Is it because someone being gifted said cow voucher, doesn't seem as "unfair" as someone buying a GMU 2 bull elk voucher? Not arguing for or against, just curious about the thinking.
 
One reason not to push for using pref pts for cow/doe vouchers is because there is SO much hunting pressure on public land. Although vouchers currently can be used on public or private hopefully this would encourage landowners to allow access to cow hunters....maybe I'm just dreaming this will happen?

If the CPW was smart they would adopt policy that vouchers are good on private land ONLY! This would solve aome of the problems with voucher tags, private access, and license broker issues.

I'm excited to see that others have the same negative attitude in regard to point banking! It certainly is nice to be able to draw 0 to 10 pref pts tags!
 
>I have always went for the
>2-5 point units that aren't
>as drastically effected by the
>point creep, it seems to
>me that all point banking
>will do is create major
>point creep in these type
>of units.

That is my concern as well.

Around a month ago, I received a phone one evening from CPW saying there was a "town hall" phone meeting in a matter of minutes and it was going to cover pref points, season structures, etc - basically the new 5 year plan stuff. If you wanted to express your opinion or had questions, you could press a certain number and get on the list to speak. The meeting lasted an hour and I never got to speak but if I remember right, there were 3 people that expressed their support of point banking and no one spoke against it. The response from CPW was that point banking is an option that is getting a lot of support and they are looking into it. After the call ended, I filled out the 5 year plan input form and mailed it in and then called the local CPW office to talk to a real live person. Once again I was told that they are hearing a lot from people that want point banking back.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Apr-07-14
>AT 09:18?PM (MST)
>
>Back to the voucher thing.....curious why
>to exempt cow/doe vouchers that
>require public draw hunters burn
>their points to draw? Is
>it because someone being gifted
>said cow voucher, doesn't seem
>as "unfair" as someone buying
>a GMU 2 bull elk
>voucher? Not arguing for or
>against, just curious about the
>thinking.


That should also extend to people who apply yet hunt OTC or find left-overs. Points are used on the LO vouchers by the LOs.
 
If there is a set number of licenses, point banking has to help some as it requires an extra point to draw a license and doesn't allow you to gain another point that year. It seems like it is getting 2 extra bonus points out of the system for whomever uses it. When they draw their 2nd license, then that gets a third point out of the system. If they split their points 3 times, I think that removes 5 points from the system.

I don't think it is going to solve the issue of point escalation, but it could help a little. You are definitely correct that it will likely raise the points needed for the lower and middle point brackets while reducing (it could be a slight reduction) of the top tier units.

I am sitting on 10 points (I have hunted CO 4 times over those 10 years) and would possibly consider it, not sure if I would or wouldn't though.
 
If you're against point banking ya better send the rule makers some messages or we might end up with this horrible being reinstated.

"Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway."
 
Just for info.....at least one of Colorado's hunter advocacy organizations has done member surveys and formally communicated those results to CDPW Director Broscheid, stating that the membership places a high priority on returning to PP banking, and making it permanent.
 
sticksender

Are you referring to CO Bowhunters Assoc? The night I listened to the town hall meeting one of the guys in favor of PP Banking said he was with CO Bowhunters.
 
Here is an interesting set of tables available on the CPW website that lists the number and % of total hunters with particular pref points. What I find interesting is the very small proportion of hunters that have greater than 3 pref pts. Approximately 74 and 64% of the total resident deer and elk hunters have 2 or less pref pts.

http://cpw.state.co.us/Documents/Hunting/BigGame/5YearSeasonStructure/PostDraw05_13PrefPtsbyRes.pdf

The majority of hunters in Colo have relatively few pref pts. If point banking returns it would mean more years to draw tags....for everyone (except those that point bank) and a major shift to 3+ years to draw the same tags that currently take 0 to 2 pref pts to draw. If you enjoy hunting Colorado limited units every year or 2 you better speak up!

If it's the CBA that is supporting point banking they can pretty much forget about me ever supporting their organization! I would suggest anyone in the CBA to raise a stink about what they are supporting! If it's not the CBA I apologize.
 
Yep, its the CBA. First they take no official position on vouchers while one of their board members was on the voucher review committee and voted for increasing % of vouchers to Landowners, and now they want permanent point banking

"The CBA would like to have CPW reestablish a Preference Point Banking System similar to the one established a few years ago. The preference of the CBA is that this be a permanent program rather than a temporary one. Our membership identified this as a high priority proposal in our survey".

What is this Org good for????
 
One interesting fact from the chart is the 2007 numbers. That is the year they purged points for inactivity, so people jumped back in and the "0" point holders dropped dramatically. Seems like that actually added to point creep. But now that number is creeping back up (people with "0" points).

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
I almost joined the cba but after seeing them falsely advertise I didn't. Then the new voucher program gets implemented without them taking a stance. Now this. What a waste of an organization.

I hope point banking does not come back.

No way it will help point creep. If somebody builds up 12 points and wants to use them on a hunt that takes 3 let them. Don't allow them to hunt it 3 years in a row and take the tag from 2 other hunters.
 
As for offering comments about Point Banking, the CPW has the note below on their website. What do they mean by "the Commission process?"

Public comments are encouraged!

The online comment period has closed. Opportunities for public comment will continue to be possible through the Commission process.
 
>Here is an interesting set of
>tables available on the CPW
>website that lists the number
>and % of total hunters
>with particular pref points.
>What I find interesting is
>the very small proportion of
>hunters that have greater than
>3 pref pts. Approximately
>74 and 64% of the
>total resident deer and elk
>hunters have 2 or less
>pref pts.
>
>http://cpw.state.co.us/Documents/Hunting/BigGame/5YearSeasonStructure/PostDraw05_13PrefPtsbyRes.pdf
>
>The majority of hunters in Colo
>have relatively few pref pts.
> If point banking returns
>it would mean more years
>to draw tags....for everyone (except
>those that point bank) and
>a major shift to 3+
>years to draw the same
>tags that currently take 0
>to 2 pref pts to
>draw. If you enjoy
>hunting Colorado limited units every
>year or 2 you better
>speak up!
>

I'm not real sure people are as interested in the lower quality 0-2pt units. If so they wouldn't be 0-2pt units. The concern will be the mid level 6-12pt units and trying to convince the 15-20pt+ holders to cash in with the opportunity to draw 2 or 3 tags instead of waiting around for 4th seasons to reopen. As it currently sits, there's not a unit in the state in terms of deer worth those kinds of points without the rut hunts. Elk is pretty much the same way, only the number of quality units is less and people are chasing them. That's not a point issue, that's a mgmt issue.


Of course, if you ask the 0-2pt holders, they'd like a shot at hunting the same units as the 15-20pt+ holders. Can't satisfy everyone, so leave it alone and work on building quality herds with good age structure and the issue just may work itself out. Banking would just be a bandaid that won't come close to addressing the problem.
 
I would disagree on the 0-2 point units being unaffected. I do agree that the 15-20 point guys won't be looking at these units but what about the 4-10 point guys? Point creep isn't all about the guys with 15-20 points. With the deer recovery being slow even in the so called quality units, I have to believe a lot of guys will choose to hunt multiple times in marginal 0-2 point units versus trying to draw once in a quality unit - especially when many of the quality units are still years from being good again.
 
Point creep will by the CPW's own projections increase low to mid tier units by 2-3 points.

So current 0 point units will jump up to 1-3
current 1 point units 3-4
current 2 point units 4-5
current 3 point units 5-6
Current 4 point units 6-8

So on and so on and this is the CPW's projections! That is for deer there are so many elk points out there that the above #'s will jump by 1-2 points or more.

Also I talk with a lot of folks and for you that dont think point banking is coming back think again. Both the outfitters association and CBA are pushing hard for it. This tried and failed idea is getting the push it needs to come back....

Let the CPW know how you feel or if you dont have a ton of points get ready to either buy a LO voucher or give up hunting your 0 point unit every year as soon that unit will take 2-3 points to draw. If you dont have points and point banking comes back it will be 5 years until you draw a current 1-2 pt unit...

Again this is the CPW's plan and their goal is that it will take more points to draw. It is ignorant to think that point banking will not slam the everyday hunter who hunts and does not build points. In reality it will as there are a ton of points holders out there with 8-12 points that will never draw 44 4th and are looking to jump off the point ship.
 
During the last PB experiment if a unit had 30% draw odds with 1 point, so obviously 100% with 2 points, did they take 2 points or 3 from the applicant? I know they took one extra point but was curious as to whether it was added to the 100% draw odds number or the lower partial draw odds number.
 
>Yep, its the CBA. First they
>take no official position on
>vouchers while one of their
>board members was on the
>voucher review committee and voted
>for increasing % of vouchers
>to Landowners, and now they
>want permanent point banking
>
>"The CBA would like to have
>CPW reestablish a Preference Point
>Banking System similar to the
>one established a few years
>ago. The preference of the
>CBA is that this be
>a permanent program rather than
>a temporary one. Our membership
>identified this as a high
>priority proposal in our survey".
>
>
>What is this Org good for????
>

Lining the pockets of outfitters and LO's.
 
>I would disagree on the 0-2
>point units being unaffected. I
>do agree that the 15-20
>point guys won't be looking
>at these units but what
>about the 4-10 point guys?
>Point creep isn't all about
>the guys with 15-20 points.
>With the deer recovery being
>slow even in the so
>called quality units, I have
>to believe a lot of
>guys will choose to hunt
>multiple times in marginal 0-2
>point units versus trying to
>draw once in a quality
>unit - especially when many
>of the quality units are
>still years from being good
>again.

4-10pt guys shouldn't be looking at them much either. They'd have never gotten to 4-10pts if the goal was to hunt low quality units on a yearly basis. Shouldn't the 0-2pt units be in more danger when thousands of people cash in points and return to zero every year?
 
>During the last PB experiment if
>a unit had 30% draw
>odds with 1 point, so
>obviously 100% with 2 points,
>did they take 2 points
>or 3 from the applicant?
>I know they took one
>extra point but was curious
>as to whether it was
>added to the 100% draw
>odds number or the lower
>partial draw odds number.


I've been wondering the same thing!
 
My thoughts on point banking is that it really won't help draw odds for high demand elk units 2, 10, or 201 that have so few tags and so many applicants. The only thing point banking will do is make current 0 to 10 pref pt units immediately leap to 2 to 12 pref pts required to draw...and this increase will continue and never return to original levels.

Many of those that currently apply just for pref pts in hopes of drawing units like 2, 10, or 201 will finally come to the conclusion that they will never draw those units and decide to cash in their pref pts several times for multiple tags. This will imediately impact mid-tier units that take 5 to 10 pref pts. With so many applicants applying for tags rather than just applying for pref pts each year this will create what I call "point leaping" for years to come in all units. Point leaping can't help but trickle down to all units that currently take 0 to 10 pref pts to draw!

Point banking is a horrible idea if you ask me! There are a lot better draw systems available. Colo would be a lot better off with a bonus pt system similar to Utah or Nevada.

Young hunters or new hunters starting out will be the ones that will be the most affected by a point banking system. It will take longer for them to draw tags and they will likely loose interest in hunting if they can't draw tags! What is sad is this is likely being considered because of selfishness of those that have accumulated numerous pref pts over the years. It is obviously difficult for those that have 15 pref pts to apply for units that only take 10 pref pts to draw! I believe it is important to think long term rather than what it will do short-term for those that want to burn accumulated pref pts!

Point banking is a horrible idea that will significantly impact draw odds in Colo for years to come! CBA's poll is pretty much a joke! Only 520 out of 2317 (less than 23%) of its members responded to the poll. From what I've seen and heard many guys don't even know what point banking is nor the consequences or impacts it will have on future draws. The CBA should be responsible for informing their members in regard to issues and their implications PRIOR to conducting polls! Me and others will hold CBA accountable if this passes!

If the CPW is smart they will research the implications of point banking prior to passing this...especially when it could significantly impact how difficult it is to draw tags in the future in Colorado!
 
If point banking were in effect in 2013 in Colorado for Archery Elk:

501 resident archers would have a total of 863 more points for the 2014 drawing.
267 nonresident archers would have a total of 596 more points for the 2014 drawing.



Leaving that many points in the point pool each year is the definition of point creep. This is in addition to hunters changing their plans to take advantage of point banking.





I am against point baking. Here is my analysis:



After the 2013 Archery elk drawing (if point banking were allowed)



346 more resident archery elk hunters would have 1 point for the 2014 drawing.
92 more resident archery elk hunters would have 2 points
35 more resident archery elk hunters would have 3 points
18 more resident archery elk hunters would have 4 points
12 more resident archery elk hunters would have 5 points
3 more resident archery elk hunters would have 6 points
3 more resident archery elk hunters would have 7 points
5 more resident archery elk hunters would have 8 points
2 more resident archery elk hunters would have 9 points
1 more resident archery elk hunter would have 10 points





137 more nonresident archery elk hunters would have 1 point for the 2014 drawing.
54 more nonresident archery elk hunters would have 2 points
25 more nonresident archery elk hunters would have 3 points
19 more nonresident archery elk hunters would have 4 points
14 more nonresident archery elk hunters would have 5 points
9 more nonresident archery elk hunters would have 6 points
2 more nonresident archery elk hunters would have 7 points
4 more nonresident archery elk hunters would have 8 points
1 more nonresident archery elk hunters would have 9 points
1 more nonresident archery elk hunters would have 10 points
1 more nonresident archery elk hunters would have 11 points





This data was collected from 2013ElkHuntRecap and 2013ElkDrawSummary from the 37 archery elk drawing units.

I counted the number of points over the number required to guarantee a drawn tag.



For example EE004O1A required 1 point to GUARANTEE a resident one of the 293 tags. Most hunters drew with 0 points.
23 hunters applied for EE004O1a with 2 points, so they would have 1 point after a point banking drawing.
5 hunters applied for EE004O1a with 3 points, so they would have 2 points after a point banking drawing.
1 hunter applied for EE004O1a with 7 points, so they would have 6 points after a point banking drawing.



There are also 372 drawings for Bull or either sex elk rifle or muzzleloader tags which may multiply these numbers by 10.



How many rifle or muzzleloader hunters may switch to archery to take advantage of point banking?
How many of the 67,668 hunters collecting points (EP-999-99-P) will start applying for the hunt you want?

The point creep that will be caused by point banking is permanent. The hunters who would have drawn without point banking now have 1 more point for next year.

Ken
 
There are also many hunters who currently purge their points on cow tags each year. They would keep their points also.

Ken
 
There are only 410 Archery Elk Resident tags which require more than 2 points.

This year 79 more Archery Elk Residents would have 3 or more points than they have with point banking.

Can you say Point Creep?

Point Banking, Just Say No!

Ken
 
I wish I was willing to count the 372 rifle/muzzleloader points which would be added to the pool of points. Maybe I'll consider writing some software.

But I hope you get the idea that Point Banking doesn't add up.

The masses of applicants who currently use their points inefficiently will swamp the rest of us if CPW starts point banking.

Ken
 
I just looked at the Public Comment Form I sent in and on page 2 it states:

Write Us - You can send us your ideas and comments at any time by filling out the public comment form (available online, sending an email to [email protected] or writing to: Big Game Season Structure and Planning Section, 6060 Broadway, Denver, CO 80216.

Being the public comment form is no longer on the CPW website looks like email is the way to go.
 
Send in your comments!

As I have said unless you have a points banked if it is reinstated you will have ZERO chance of drawing a tag during the entire next 5 year structure that currently takes 1-6 points.

The points this will ADD not subtract from the pool are incredible and will with out a doubt create the biggest point leap that Colorado has ever seen.

All the numbers say that you can expect 2-3 point increase in 0-6 point units for deer and more for elk as there are more points in the system.

Shitty deal that the CPW is attempting to their mistake of selling a ton of points exclusively on hunters who hunt and have not gained points.

Great numbers and facts above thanks!
 
I would encourage all of you to contact the CPW in regard to this issue! This is one of the spookiest issues I can remember in my 30 years of living in Colorado. Point banking will definitely increase the number of pref pts it takes to draw tags in Colorado....both long and short-term!
 
One other thing I didn't mention is that a lot of hunters have the misconception that the "point leap" from point banking is only a short term problem. In reality this will have long term implications. Once pref pts leap they will never recover or stabilize!
 
With the current method, hunters could plan a future hunt with some degree of certainty based on points needed the previous year versus what they had. If they had one more point to allow for creep, the chances are they would draw.(I know there are exceptions but I am talking in general terms). Toss in PB and this all goes out the window. The draw odds are going to be really whacky and much harder to predict.
 
They won't need 5 years to know if it will work.

I'm against it but 1 year would be better than 5 years.

Ken
 
>You only use the number of
>points required to draw +
>1.

Is the number required to draw the 100% odds number or the lower partial odds number?
 
I'm glad they only want to cause Chaos for the next few years. They are really thinking about the big picture. Not!

Every hunter that plans to use a limited tag should be against Point Banking.

Every hunter should express their opinion to CPW or the POINT BANKERS will hose us all.

Ken
 
I got to thinking about public input regarding the 5 year plan and it dawned on me that a lot of hunters did not express their views on ways to help point creep because they want to see it left alone. So basically they stayed home or didn't fill out the survey but the point banking crowd showed up and CPW heard from them loud and clear. By the time word got out that pb was being considered due to public support, the March 31 public input deadline was about over or was over. Even though the public input survey is no longer online, phone calls, letters and emails sure can't hurt.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-13-14 AT 07:17AM (MST)[p]You know the saddest part about point banking just hit me when I was talking with a good friends 12 year old son who want so badly to hunt mule deer.

No one has pointed out that the lowest point holder group that will be the most effected is the one what was banned from buying points by law until they turned 14..

The KIDS who will not be able to hunt this 5 year structure have no voice and you should have seen the face of both the father and the broken heart of the kid when they realize with point banking "point leap" this 14 year old may be able to hunt the 2 point unit he wants until he is 20 years old.

Point banking will statistically eliminate all kids who have not built up points for the next 5 year structure = tragic and pathetic..
 
Tragic? That sounds bad. It's going to break his heart even more when he learns that hunting is hunting even in a preference point draw. I'd go with maybe a bit annoying . . . The kid is going to learn one way or the other that tags are in limited supply in lots of places, whether he waits a few years or many for a tag. There are still every year hunting opportunities that can be productive, thankfully, for the guy (or kid) who is willing to work at it, even if there is point banking.

I'm no mathematician, not by a long shot, but the big variable here is whether or not guys will actually use banking. I think there is still a fair portion of tag holders who will not do it and wait to see what effect that has on the top tier hunts.

Point banking is the only real solution the CPW sees for dealing with the points thing on a reasonable equitable basis, everyone is screwed or no one is depending on your outlook. The only other thing they could do is create more limited hunts to spread the points out.

What they really need to do is revamp the points system, which inevitably will screw a bunch of people.
 
>Tragic? That sounds bad.
> It's going to break
>his heart even more when
>he learns that hunting is
>hunting even in a preference
>point draw. I'd go
>with maybe a bit annoying
>. . . The kid
>is going to learn one
>way or the other that
>tags are in limited supply
>in lots of places, whether
>he waits a few years
>or many for a tag.
> There are still every
>year hunting opportunities that can
>be productive, thankfully, for the
>guy (or kid) who is
>willing to work at it,
>even if there is point
>banking.
>
>I'm no mathematician, not by a
>long shot, but the big
>variable here is whether or
>not guys will actually use
>banking. I think there
>is still a fair portion
>of tag holders who will
> not do it and
>wait to see what effect
>that has on the top
>tier hunts.
>
>Point banking is the only real
>solution the CPW sees for
>dealing with the points thing
>on a reasonable equitable basis,
>everyone is screwed or no
>one is depending on your
>outlook. The only other
>thing they could do is
>create more limited hunts to
>spread the points out.
>
>What they really need to do
>is revamp the points system,
>which inevitably will screw a
>bunch of people.


Kids will feel the point banking leap this more than any other user group as they were unable to build points under the law.

If you are 11-12 and looking at the first shot under point banking that you will have to draw a license in your back yard to hunt deer is when you are 19??

Most will just give up as for a 11 year old kid 19 is a life time away. They will not learn about hunting as a kid other than on OTC elk licenses as point banking will statistically and completely eliminate them from hunting for Deer for this 5 year cycle.
 
One of my points above (I guess I didn't make it very clear) is that no matter the system tags will be in short supply in the years to come. Kids might just as well get used to it and learn to be resourceful hunters and take advantage of opportunities that exist.

The banking will not eliminate them from hunting deer unless you are referring to a specific unit. The kid might have to hunt deer somewhere else for a while.
 
Under point banking 0 point units are a thing of the past.. Leftovers will also get taken up.

The trickle down in points or there are so many points out there and so many hunters who hunt deer every year that under point banking there will be no 0 point units left.

The real numbers speak to this.
 
Would be better if they let people apply together and average their points, with no way of turning tags back. Selfish of me to want to share my points with my younger kids and go on a hunt together. Better than point banking though.
 
HiMtnHunter, I understand where you are coming from but had to bite my lip after reading a couple of your last posts in regard to young hunters! The last time I checked the youth of today will be the leaders of tomorrow. One of the biggest negatives to point banking is it's negative effects on young and new hunters just starting out! If they can't draw tags in a year or 2 I can see their lack of interest in the great sport of hunting! I think all of us need to consider the impacts point banking will have on our youth and the sport of hunting not only today but 20 years from now.

It's so easy for all of us to be selfish and only consider what impacts a particular draw system or change may have on ourselves and how quickly we can draw tags we are interested in. I think we all need to consider long term effects and motiviations before making decissions that carry life long implications! With all of the negative impacts, I can't believe the CPW is even considering point banking!
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-14-14 AT 07:36AM (MST)[p]I agree that youth need to have some opportunities, but point banking or not, those opportunities on mule deer are not going to be what they were for older generations any time soon, and it doesn't matter what system you have in place.
 
I think you may have this a bit wrong. It is my understanding that they will take 1 point over the number of points required to guarantee drawing a tag. So in the case where you had 23 hunters with 2 points applying for a tag, then they would take 2 points from those hunters, not 1 as your analysis shows. You do have a point though when someone uses 2 or more points then what is needed, they will get to keep their points.
 
I agree. I think you should be able to average like Wyoming. Rounding down to the nearest integer is fine by me if that makes everyone happy.
 
I don't understand what is wrong with the current system. You wait in line for what you want. If you want to wait 20 years for one tag, go for it. There is nothing wrong with that. In the meantime you can hunt over the counter with everyone else. If you want to hunt a unit every couple years you can do that as well. Nobody should worry about point hoarders unless you are one yourself. Point hoarders keep low to mid points low. The system isn't perfect but you get what you wait for. Colorado offers good hunting opportunities for all. If you want to see a messed up system look at New Mexico. There is little to no opportunity for non residents. Nothing in life will be fair to all but this system is probably as good as it is going to get. The only improvement might be a max point system like Wyoming. The bottom line should be the proper management of the animals, not how many guys can go hunting every year. This means that you might have to sit out a year or accept a lesser unit. A guy just needs to do some extra homework and enjoy your time in the field.
 
THOUSANDS of points added to the pool EACH year.

I added the 976 points which would remain from the 37 archery elk hunts in 2013. (using points + 1)

Multiply by at least 10 for the 372 rifle/muzzleloader bull hunt codes and 625 cow hunt codes.

At least TEN THOUSAND points added to the pool EACH year.

Don't you think that will cause point creep.

Now add the POINT BANKERS.

Ken
 
3000-4000 less resident hunters had zero points after 2007. I got that from the Elk Hunting Recap Reports from 2006-2008.

Was this caused by point banking? There were about 195,000 resident applicants in all three years.

Ken
 
>3000-4000 less resident hunters had zero
>points after 2007. I got
>that from the Elk Hunting
>Recap Reports from 2006-2008.
>
>Was this caused by point banking?
>There were about 195,000 resident
>applicants in all three years.
>
>
>Ken

That is what I wondered, but that was the year they started purging people that had not applied in a certain number of years. I think that was what reduced the numbers


txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-16-14 AT 07:01AM (MST)[p]>Nobody should worry about point
>hoarders unless you are one
>yourself. Point hoarders keep
>low to mid points low.
> The system isn't perfect
>but you get what you
>wait for.

Uhhhh.........I did not "get what I waited for".

I sit firmly at the top of no man's land, with 18 points, and absolutely nothing to gain in my lifetime due to a pin hole sized bottleneck above me. To those out there who refer to guys like me as "point hoarders" with no draw strategy, please think again. It's not a hobby of mine to "hoard" points. I started out with a realistic goal of a 61 archery elk tag, but CODOW yanked the goalposts midstream by reducing NR quota percentages for units requiring over 5 points to draw. That eliminated the chance for a 61 tag in my lifetime, and inserted me in no man's land by no choice of my own.

However, I don't feel strongly about this issue one way or another. Every time F&G's change point systems, it benefits some and hurts others. No way around that. That is why I hate point systems. One thing's for sure........the guys most vocal against point banking have only 0 or 1 point. They have figured out the system and love not having to compete against the no man's land guys. Whatever the powers that be decide, I will simply strategize accordingly and move on.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC & DP Hate Club
 
When the reality became apparent to me with 16 PP's and 69 years old, I finally burned my points in 2012 on a Unit 61 2nd rifle hunt and got out of the chase while the getting was good. No regrets.
 
I sent a email to CPW to find out the best way for someone to express their opinion on points banking and this was the response I received;

"The internal CPW team working on Big Game Season Structure for 2015-2019 has received a strong number of comments in favor of changing the current preference point system and in support of reinstating "banking" of preference points. However, no decisions have been made in regard to the Big Game Season Structure at this time. The team is considering public input and drafting possible alternatives that will be presented to the Parks and Wildlife Commission at their June meeting. The best way for the public to engage from now on and to submit comments is to wait until alternatives are proposed in June and comment through the Commission process. The Commission will make a final decision in September 2014."

So hopefully they will receive public input before they make their decision, because I believe the majority will be against it.

Mark
 
If I am reading between the lines correctly, they are saying if you haven't already expressed your views at the February public meetings or via the online/mail in survey process (March 31 deadline), then you are out of luck. At this point in time your only option is to wait until June and see what alternatives are proposed and then chime in.
 
TXhunter "but that was the year they started purging people that had not applied in a certain number of years. I think that was what reduced the numbers", "3000-4000 LESS resident hunters had zero points after 2007."

No, That means MORE hunters kept some points.
There were about the same number of resident applicants in all three years.

Ken
 

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