Aircraft and scouting in Wyoming

jm77 · Dec 25, 2014

The use of aircraft and drones for spotting or locating game animals, is an issue that has come forward in the last year. The recent attempt to ban drones failed partly due to discrepancies between statute and regulation. Below is the wording of Wyo statute 23-3-306(a)

(a) No person shall harass, pursue, hunt, shoot, or kill any Wyoming wildlife except predatory animals with, from, or by use of any aircraft, automotive vehicle, trailer, motor-propelled wheeled vehicle, or vehicle designed for travel over snow. No person shall use any aircraft, to aid in the taking of any Wyoming wildlife, except predatory animals, whether by spotting or locating the wildlife, communicating with any person attempting to take the wildlife, or by providing other aid to any person taking the wildlife. Nothing in this subsection shall apply to the use of any aircraft by governmental agencies, their employees, contractors or designees performing any lawful duties. The commission may exempt handicapped hunters from any provision of this subsection.

Chapter 2 Section 12 of Wyo G&F Regulation reads exactly the same but for one sentence:

"No person shall use any aircraft, to aid in the taking of any Wyoming wildlife, except predatory animals, whether by spotting or locating the wildlife, communicating with any person attempting to take the wildlife, or by providing other aid to any person taking the wildlife within twenty-four of being airborne.

The Game & Fish has recognized that the inclusion of the "24 hour rule" weakens the intent of the statutes which clearly prohibits the use of aircraft in scouting game animals. After the first of the year, G&F will be opening Chapter 2 and we have the opportunity to support removing the language of the "24 hour rule" and adding drone to the definition of aircraft. This would in effect ban ALL aircraft from being used to scout game animals.(except as allowed in regulation for government agencies)

TOPGUN · Dec 25, 2014

Thanks for the quick update from the other thread on this Jeff!

PleaseDear · Dec 25, 2014

I sent my Drone back last week because every FS Office I called and every DWR I called said NO WAY---

I am thankful that I had 30 day Return, no shipping Fee...

Screw them Drones--77

Merry Christmas All,

Robb

alaska_bou · Dec 26, 2014

Most will support the changes in the regulation wording however prosecution will be difficult at best. After all, the pilots were just "checking cows" at 200ft AGL.

piper · Dec 26, 2014

That would be welcome, I'm sure there is plenty of behind the scenes lobbying going on against the change. Sometimes the laws need to change to compensate for modern changes in technology and the commercialization of trophy wildlife

jm77 · Dec 26, 2014

>Most will support the changes in
>the regulation wording however prosecution
>will be difficult at best.
>After all, the pilots were
>just "checking cows" at 200ft
>AGL.

Many wildlife related laws are difficult to enforce. Should we not have them either?

It's not reasonable to think licensed commercial pilots, hired to fly those scouting now, will ignore the law. Those that own their own planes will most likely be flying higher, too. Who could not want this to happen, besides those doing it now? Aerial scouting has no place in the sport of hunting.

alaska_bou · Dec 26, 2014

Agreed, 100%, that aerial scouting should have no place in sport hunting, including Alaska, and the effort required to change the existing regulations would be worthwhile.

FAA already requires a 500ft AGL minimum over populated areas and a 500ft linear distance when flying over sparsely populated areas. At best, and only if recorded with a visible tail #, a pilot may receive a warning or a fine from the FAA for violating airspace regulations.

With that said I don't think it is reasonable to believe most of the rogue outfitters who practice this are actually hiring commercial pilots. Access to a part 141-licensed friend or a ranch aircraft is all it takes. Remember, that many of Wyoming's largest ranches own light aircraft and file no flight plan when flying for speculative reasons.

Triple_BB · Dec 26, 2014

Definitely support banning drones. I'd be surprised if they get the 24 hr rule out. Imagine there's gonna be a bunch of ranchers calling on their elected buddies to make some noise behind the scenes...

jm77 · Dec 26, 2014

>Definitely support banning drones. I'd
>be surprised if they get
>the 24 hr rule out.
> Imagine there's gonna be
>a bunch of ranchers calling
>on their elected buddies to
>make some noise behind the
>scenes...

The 24 hour rule is actually in violation of statute. Something will be done, rest assured...

nontypical · Dec 26, 2014

It's about time. I've been advocating for this law for many years now. The 24-hr part is a joke. Maybe taking out the "24-hr rule" will show folks that Wyoming is serious about this.

However, I would tend to agree with Alaska__bou about the enforcement part. While elk hunting this year, a local with a dubious past for game violations was flying the country I was hunting on a daily basis. From what I was told, his nephew had the tag. Apparently, it's okay to fly to spot game if you're not the tag-holder. Just another possible scenario of skirting the law.

Perhaps the law should read this way: You are not allowed to fly over any area that you are in possession of a valid hunting license for during any open hunting season. Period.

BuzzH · Dec 26, 2014

Theres been a lot going on behind the scenes on this drone/flying issue.

IMO, it makes NO sense to ban drones unless we clean up the 24 hour rule that violates statute.

Also, with the number of hunters that pack video cameras and cell phones, its not that tough to figure out when someone is flying for game, or to record these activities.

Its also no secret who is doing the flying and scouting.

A knock on the door by the local GF Warden to follow up on a report would go a long way to sending a clear message that those violating the law are being watched.

Seeking a maximum fine for the first few that are caught to again send a crystal clear message.

Triple_BB · Dec 26, 2014

JM, with the reg's being fairly broad, if the reg's are changed, would it prevent guys from hiring a chopper to fly them into landlocked public ground.

BuzzH · Dec 26, 2014

Read the statute...it says nothing about transporting hunters to hunting areas.

Just an FYI, before you fly into land-locked public I would look closely at the State or Federal Land Agencies regulations regarding such activity.

Some Agencies allow it some don't.

ASB · Dec 26, 2014

Pretty prominent WY outfitter has expanded his area (unpermitted) by the things he has found with his little Cessna. G&F know about it & there is zero they have done the last couple years....local warden actually has a hard-on for him, so he's been in the crosshairs for lack of better word.

2015 could now get interesting........

piper · Dec 26, 2014

Oh but the politics of change, maybe we need some surveys and a few more years to make some loopholes in any new law. Sorry if I sound sarcastic, but I really wonder if money and politics are going to rule out any meaningful change.

jm77 · Dec 26, 2014

I think Wyo statute 23-3-306(a) is very clear right now. No new law needs to be made. Regulation needs to reflect statute, drone added to definition of aircraft, 24 hour rule removed - done deal! And all in G&F regs, no legislators, just commissioners.

spbgrizz · Dec 26, 2014

Also there is a federal law called ,The Airborne Hunting Act, that prohibits the taking OR harassment of protected wildlife from the air. Besides a fine there is Forfeiture of the plane! My friend and I were watching a nice buck in the Salt River Range when a plane flew by, kept circling till the buck ran hundreds of yards back into cover.I'm sure this happens with deer and elk quite often. I've talked to a federal officer and he said get a video with the plane number. I said; send a letter to be posted in all airports in Western Wyoming explaining the law and the plane forfeiture, fines ect. Put the fear in em. Also make sure everyone packs a video camera on you next scouting trip. Wyoming did confiscate a helicopter awhile back.

jm77 · Dec 26, 2014

>Also there is a federal law
>called ,The Airborne Hunting Act,
>that prohibits the taking OR
>harassment of protected wildlife from
>the air. Besides a
>fine there is Forfeiture of
>the plane! My friend and
>I were watching a nice
>buck in the Salt River
>Range when a plane flew
>by, kept circling till the
>buck ran hundreds of yards
>back into cover.I'm sure this
>happens with deer and elk
>quite often. I've talked to
>a federal officer and he
>said get a video with
>the plane number. I said;
>send a letter to be
>posted in all airports in
>Western Wyoming explaining the law
>and the plane forfeiture, fines
>ect. Put the fear in
>em. Also make sure everyone
>packs a video camera on
>you next scouting trip. Wyoming
>did confiscate a helicopter awhile
>back.

Very interesting. It actually says "use an aircraft to harass any bird, fish, or other animal"

Check this out, it happened this year in Sept, during archery season, southeast of Casper,Wy. This guy was cited by the local warden for game harassment, a state charge.

http://youtu.be/fPcVWh9hccE

TOPGUN · Dec 27, 2014

jm77---That guy should have not only been cited for game harassment, but he should have also had that confiscated. If that is not allowed under the section he violated, it should be! I have to laugh at some of these idiot DBs that put stuff up on the net that are violations of the law and then get busted for it!

jm77 · Dec 27, 2014

From what I have heard, the plea deal offer included loss of hunting privileges and the guy plead not guilty. So we'll see what happens I guess. I would like to see the state charges dropped and federal charges filed!

Randy11 · Dec 27, 2014

I got to watch this guy fly around one day on my antelope hunt last year in SW WY. He proceeded to buzz every herd in that part of the unit, sending them to god knows where. I had been hunting for six days, and couldn't relocate a single buck after this asshat had been in the air for a couple hours.

The game warden didn't sound too worried about it, said he might make it down to the unit later in the day.

BuzzH · Dec 27, 2014

Randy11,

Is is OK with you if I save your picture?

Also, you have my email address if you have any others. THIS is the exact thing we need to have to get this flying bullchit under control.

Thanks.

Randy11 · Dec 27, 2014

Yeah Buzz I'll try to email you some higher reolution pictures on Monday. I lost a bunch of my photos from the last year, hopefully these aren't part of them.

Foreverwest · Dec 28, 2014

I hope this passes. A lot of trophy quality bucks in western wyoming would be given a sporting chance. One outfitter in particular uses flying as the main method to locate the majority of all of the bucks they harvest. For those that can't find em from the ground with the sweat off your brow and a little hard work..... Go home, you have no business hunting. Go to a high fence and shoot an animal.

TOPGUN · Dec 28, 2014

It definitely needs to be changed, as well as enforced. It appears so blatant that there's an outfitter ad on page 41 of the WYOGA magazine that actually has a picture of a plane with a guy standing next to it and the caption is "Preseason Aerial Scouting"! That would seem to be in direct violation of the actual statute as it is written right now and it's right out in the open telling everyone that's how they are spotting the good animals they take.

wolfhunter · Dec 28, 2014

>I hope this passes. A lot
>of trophy quality bucks in
>western wyoming would be given
>a sporting chance. One outfitter
>in particular uses flying as
>the main method to locate
>the majority of all of
>the bucks they harvest. For
>those that can't find em
>from the ground with the
>sweat off your brow and
>a little hard work..... Go
>home, you have no business
>hunting. Go to a high
>fence and shoot an animal.
>

I think if your trying to Slow Wiley down at killing big bucks you had better outlaw his "Big Eyes" or binoculars that come in a suitcase. Those are how he finds most of the big ones...

BuzzH · Dec 28, 2014

LAST EDITED ON Dec-28-14 AT 01:05PM (MST)[p]Then he shouldn't have any trouble stopping the flying and start working within the law, rather than around the edges of it.

wolfhunter · Dec 28, 2014

Better than that you better pass a law to outlaw scouting in the summer....It's way to effective!!! Plus you had better outlaw accurate rifles too... Maybe we should add on horses too!!! Jealousy is so easy to spot...

BuzzH · Dec 28, 2014

Stupidity is even easier to spot...

Start your own thread, or stay on topic. As a reminder, this one is about drones and aircraft being used for hunting/scouting.

wolfhunter · Dec 28, 2014

No its really about jealous people wanting to pass laws to make up for their inadequacy!!

Jealousy's false perception takes on a life of its own....

BuzzH · Dec 28, 2014

Its about hunting ethics and giving our public wildlife a fair shake as well as hunters of all means an equally fair shake at said wildlife.

Period.

jm77 · Dec 28, 2014

>No its really about jealous people
>wanting to pass laws to
>make up for their inadequacy!!
>
>
>Jealousy's false perception takes on a
>life of its own....

Wow!! Hypocrisy rises to another new level. But leave it to wh to defend the use of planes to scout game and use jealousy as the reason to stop it. This is from the almighty wolf killer who wants to save all the big game from the dreaded wolf, but cares not how man himself might treat the resource.

jm77 · Dec 28, 2014

>Its about hunting ethics and giving
>our public wildlife a fair
>shake as well as hunters
>of all means an equally
>fair shake at said wildlife.
>
>
>Period.

+1

wolfhunter · Dec 28, 2014

I am all for the resource... and protecting it. I would be the first to stand in line to reduce hunter pressure on our beloved Western Wyoming Mule Deer herd by 50 percent. Fact...! The reason our deer are in bad shape has nothing to do with aircraft. It has everything to do with the lack of management adapting to the new hunter. Lets call it what it is.....!

TOPGUN · Dec 28, 2014

LAST EDITED ON Dec-28-14 AT 02:10PM (MST)[p]>>I hope this passes. A lot
>>of trophy quality bucks in
>>western wyoming would be given
>>a sporting chance. One outfitter
>>in particular uses flying as
>>the main method to locate
>>the majority of all of
>>the bucks they harvest. For
>>those that can't find em
>>from the ground with the
>>sweat off your brow and
>>a little hard work..... Go
>>home, you have no business
>>hunting. Go to a high
>>fence and shoot an animal.
>>
>
>I think if your trying to
>Slow Wiley down at killing
>big bucks you had better
>outlaw his "Big Eyes"
>or binoculars that come in
>a suitcase. Those are
>how he finds most of
>the big ones...

I didn't see him mention Robb Wiley in his post that you quoted, so your post is rather telling by mentioning his name and defending him! The guy I mentioned in the WYOGA mag also wasn't Robb. It was Wynn Condict!

wolfhunter · Dec 28, 2014

>I didn't see him mention Robb
>Wiley in his post that
>you quoted, so your post
>is rather telling by mentioning
>his name and defending him!
> The guy I mentioned
>in the WYOGA mag also
>wasn't Robb. It was
>Wynn Condict!

Wynn Condict operates in the Platte Valley.... Pay attention popgun!!

jm77 · Dec 28, 2014

Eliminating the use of aircraft and banning drones is adapting, thank you very much...

wolfhunter · Dec 28, 2014

When are you great patrons of hunting going to fabricate laws for long range hunting....? That has a far bigger negative footprint on our resource than any single issue of today!!!

jm77 · Dec 28, 2014

>When are you great patrons of
>hunting going to fabricate laws
>for long range hunting....?
>That has a far bigger
>negative footprint on our resource
>than any single issue of
>today!!!

Stay on track wh, not what this post is about.

TOPGUN · Dec 28, 2014

LAST EDITED ON Dec-28-14 AT 04:11PM (MST)[p]>
>>I didn't see him mention Robb
>>Wiley in his post that
>>you quoted, so your post
>>is rather telling by mentioning
>>his name and defending him!
>> The guy I mentioned
>>in the WYOGA mag also
>>wasn't Robb. It was
>>Wynn Condict!
>
>
>Wynn Condict operates in the Platte
>Valley.... Pay attention popgun!!

The last I heard the Platte Valley was also in Wyoming and we're talking about stopping this crap in the entire state, not just where Robb operates!

mightyhunter · Dec 28, 2014

I spend a lot of time in the NW Wyoming backcountry on foot in the Spring, Summer and Fall. I can't recall a hike or a hunt that hasn't been interrupted by small aircraft flying overhead. I know Buzz H will ask if I have my tinfoil hat on. A year ago during archery elk season, I watched a small yellow plane fly into numerous small drainages at just a few hundred feet above the ground, This was about 5 miles North of the North Fork of the Shoshone River towards YNP. I could not identify any markings or numbers on the plane through my binoculars. The planes seem to be the most prevalent in what I would identify as bighorn sheep country. I have no problem with laws being enacted to stop the monitoring, hazing or tracking of wild game from aircraft of any kind.

I have been told that we have USFWS employees and Game and Fish employees monitoring wolves and grizzly bears from the air in this area. They may be trying to follow collared animals or may be trying to determine the number of these predators in the area.
I have never been able to identify those planes involved in lawful activity. They aren't painted green, have law enforcement emblems or have red painted doors.

How do you differentiate and identify who is flying what aircraft and what are they actually doing? There is a remote strip on the Lower Dillworth Bench (West of Clark) that people could fly in and out of without any monitoring from an outside source. There are also numerous ranches that have private strips. The people engaging in questionable activities don't have to take off or land in Powell or Cody.

To stop illegal flying activity, after a statute has been enacted, would require significant penalties for those who are caught. That could be suspension of any outfitting license or
hunting licenses permanently. I don't think that you will be able to catch many folks engaging in this type of flying activity because identifying the aircraft and proving the pilot or spotter's motives would be tough. They just need to know if they are caught, that the punishment will be swift and severe.

This is a good topic for these Wyoming forums. I don't want to hijack this thread, but I would also like to see some comments on the use of game cameras in Wilderness Areas. I have raised this issue with the USFS and they have no interest in the subject but they do tell me it is illegal. This year, I saw my first trail camera in the Wilderness that was actually transmitting images, The outfitters I have confronted about this type of activity all deny that the cameras belong to them. Advancing technology and greed is starting to destroy the sport we all love and enjoy.

By the way, would you hire an outfitter or guide that used aerial spotting to find wild game?

just sayin... mh

TOPGUN · Dec 28, 2014

MH---If you would, please go over on the thread I started for you so we can continue talking about LR and if you want to also mention the camera deal please do and maybe we'll have some more good discussion on those topics. Thanks! PS: To answer your question, no I would not go with an outfitter that spotted by air or caters to LR hunters.

Foreverwest · Dec 28, 2014

Wolfhunter - I guess I was wrong by saying anything about western Wyoming. I disn't intent to name anyone or take the thread off topic.... And I'm not trying to slow anyone down at anything. As for jealous of anyone harvesting a giant deer, absolutely. Every time I see someone in a picture with a giant, I say I want one like that....... And I think most sportsman think the same way. Wanting and wishing to go out and climb that next peak, cross that next valley, and brave that next storm, all being part of the hunting experience in hopes of finding that trophy of a lifetime. But I am not jealous of those that harvest animals because of airplanes or drones. I'm all for taking away all of our long range abilities. Let's make everything primitive weapon only for all I care. I'm not here to slander outfitters or point fingers and bring up names. Not my intention. I just believe in being fair. Right is right and wrong is wrong. I guess the reality of it is that many of us have different ethical standards than others. You can't teach ethics.

jm77 · Dec 28, 2014

Foreverwest

I don't think mentioning western Wyo was out of line. I'm not on here pointing fingers at people by name. Bottom line is that aerial scouting needs to come to an end. I can't wait to hear the excuses from those who do it and why we should allow it. Already, wolfhunter thinks we should leave them alone and go after long range shooters.

The iron is hot on this one and it's time to strike!

wolfhunter · Dec 28, 2014

I guess what we should simply do is outlaw everything that gives one hunter a perceived advantage over another i.e airplane, rifle, gear or horse. Thats your argument right jm77. Or what is your real root of your reasoning? What is the difference between a horse and an airplane for scouting? Both do the same job, some may think using a horse is unethical if they do not have one.

Because if it's all about resource...limiting weapons will help far more trophy ungulates. I can think of 500 stories where the animal would not have been killed with out the 800 yard shot.

By the way jm77 did your outfitter in the north country use a plane on your sheep hunt? Did you complain to him if he did?

ASB · Dec 28, 2014

Wolf, the man in question is pushing it a bit too much. The plane has taken him into another unit that isn't capable of the pressure he is able to apply, not at least until they strengthen up from the last die off. No need to kid here, if you know the deal you will understand. I agree with a lot that you say on all the forums most of the time. This time I do not. He is too good of a guide & doesn't need to do this.

I have a lot of respect for him.....hope he doesn't slip on a banana peel down there.

jm77 · Dec 28, 2014

>I guess what we should simply
>do is outlaw everything that
>gives one hunter a perceived
>advantage over another i.e airplane,
>rifle, gear or horse.

No, the airplane will do fine for now.

>What is the difference between
>a horse and an airplane for scouting>

Now you really opened yourself up on that one. Where do I begin? Maybe horses don't fly? That ought to do it...

>By the way jm77 did your
>outfitter in the north country
>use a plane on your
>sheep hunt? Did you
>complain to him if he
>did?

We did use a plane. It dropped us on a lake where we began a 2500 vertical foot climb and a days worth of walking to get to spike camp. We used it again on the return trip.

wolfhunter · Dec 28, 2014

I am sure you did not look out the window, for sheep, on your flight in...that would make you a hypocrite, right. I'm sure the outfitter never flew around the spike camp and looked for sheep, right! Or you jm77 would never have continued on your hunt right? You asked him right?

wolfhunter · Dec 28, 2014

Maybe I will just call your outfitter jm77 to see if he has ever scouted with the plane ever for sheep. Find out who is the hypocrite.......!

jm77 · Dec 28, 2014

>Maybe I will just call your
>outfitter jm77 to see if
>he has ever scouted with
>the plane ever for sheep.
> Find out who is
>the hypocrite.......!

Getting off topic here, but we flew in from the highway, up the river valley and landed via float plane on a lake without ever flying by sheep country. Not sure if there are any outfitters that don't fly and scout in Alaska. I hired an outfitter. Doesn't matter does it? We are here and last time I looked this is not Alaska.

Call him.

wolfhunter · Dec 28, 2014

>Getting off topic here, but we
>flew in from the highway,
>up the river valley
>and landed via float plane
>on a lake without ever
>flying by sheep country. Not
>sure if there are any
>outfitters that don't fly and
>scout in Alaska. I hired
>an outfitter. Doesn't matter
>does it? We are here
>and last time I looked
>this is not Alaska.
>
>Call him.

No, this is not even for a second off topic. You thinks flying is just fine if your paying the tab on the hunt and it benefits your successful outcome. I think your being hypocritical...BIG TIME!! Why is it okay in Alaska for you and not okay in Cody Wy for another out of state hunter to hire an outfitter who does their homework? A once and a lifetime sheep hunt is a once and a lifetime hunt regardless of the state. I will call your outfitter, for arguments sake.

jm77 · Dec 28, 2014

>once and a lifetime sheep
>hunt is a once and
>a lifetime hunt regardless of
>the state.

What's a "once and a lifetime sheep hunt"?

piper · Dec 28, 2014

Turns my stomach to read posts from wolfhunter, whines about wolves, whines about this and that, yet he thinks scouting from planes in the open country for big buck deer by outfitters is just great? I don't know if its because he thinks the commercialization of trophy wildlife is cool, if he has a fetish for airplanes or he is in love with big money hunting guide's. Who knows? But its scary and disgusting to have fellow hunters thinking like that.

alaska_bou · Dec 28, 2014

Wolfhunter,

Many of us, myself included, have hunted sheep in Alaska and owe our success to a large degree on aerial scouting by the outfitter. This does not make Jm77 a hypocrite for doing so; just about every reputable outfitter in the state of Alaska that owns an aircraft and does not rely on a third party flying service will do this and most non-residents have no DIY option in Alaska. I can admit that we do need to hold ourselves to the same ethical standards regardless of specie, location, or the impact to our checking account as you put it, but not many alternatives are available for non-resident dall sheep hunting in Alaska, specifically as you point out.

In hindsight, KNOWING what lies ahead does take away the allure of the unknown. I can't tell you how many times in my life the "unknown" was the motivating force that got me up so early in the morning or hiking further than I had planned. For that reason alone I would support the same regulation changes in Alaska as well as in Wyoming. With that said I am not ashamed by any means of my Alaskan ram as it proved to be one of the most physically difficult and soul-satisfying hunts of my life.

piper · Dec 29, 2014

Maybe wolfhunter has a hunt lined up for one of those (prescouted) big bucks? Maybe he wants to get it mounted so he brag about his conquest, so he can be proud as a peacock.

plainsman08 · Dec 29, 2014

Hunt Fair Chase

"In the breast of every meat hunter there beats the heart of a secret, frustrated trophy hunter."

wolfhunter · Dec 29, 2014

LAST EDITED ON Dec-29-14 AT 08:17AM (MST)[p]Alaska_bou,

There is zero difference between aerial scouting in Wyoming and aerial scouting in Alaska. The only difference is perspective. The residents in Palmer AK feel no different and have the same arguments posted here, I have heard them. You and jm77 can tell yourselves what ever...that simply does not change your hypocrisy.

When I was in Alaska the fight over aerial gunning for wolves was a hot topic too. The ethics card gets played very hard in all of these debates. And in Alaska the successful outfitters get the finger pointed at them as well. Most residents only see the websites of the outfitters or see the pictures of the big rams and assume the only reason the outfitters are getting the big animals is because of their "plane". No different than here in Wyoming. When in reality that big ones come from way more hard work and effort than just flying around for a couple hours. Your not going to stop the big ones from getting killed here or in Alaska by changing the 24 hour rule. FACT!!

The fact that yours or jm77's outfitter may or may not have used aerial scouting takes nothing away from a great life experience. Has zero bearing on the ONCE IN A lifetime experience!! I too have a nice 163 inch Dall Sheep that a plane was used for transportation and scouting, takes nothing away from the magnificent trophy and experience...

BuzzH · Dec 29, 2014

Wolfhunter,

Were you asleep the whole time you were flying in Alaska, or air-sick?

No difference between using a plane in AK than using one in WY?

Sell your BS to those that don't know better.

WOW!

wolfhunter · Dec 29, 2014

Buzz,

There is ZERO difference between using a plane in Alaska and or Wyoming...Agreed!!! YES! IT"S THE SAME!!!!

That is jm77 and Alaska_bou's Hypocrisy....Do you need a chart to follow???

jm77 · Dec 29, 2014

Wolfhunter

Bottom line is Wyoming Statute 23-3-306(a) prohibits the use of aircraft to spot and locate game animals in Wyo. Period.

In their infinite wisdom, the G&F Dept put the 24 hour rule in regulation to stop same day flying, hunting and communicating to people on the ground. All they had to do was enforce the law as it was written. Why there was confusion I guess we will never know.

Now the G&F has a problem they must fix. The wording of the regulation in effect changes Wyoming law. Regulation can't do that. Solution? Change the regulation back and problem solved. This isn't about me hunting Dall sheep or you and your outfitter friends scouting from a plane, it's about the law.

If you think aerial scouting should be allowed, then talk to your legislator, because it needs fixed in Cheyenne. If you do get someone to sponsor a bill to allow aerial scouting, I will enjoy seeing it debated for sure!

BuzzH · Dec 29, 2014

I agree jm77, the law needs to be applied via statute.

I also agree strongly with mighthunter, the punishment needs to be swift and harsh.

I'd really like to hear those that are using airplanes, testify in front of committee on a bill that they introduce making it legal...that would be epic.

TOPGUN · Dec 29, 2014

>I agree jm77, the law needs
>to be applied via statute.
>
>
>I also agree strongly with mighthunter,
>the punishment needs to be
>swift and harsh.
>
>I'd really like to hear those
>that are using airplanes, testify
>in front of committee on
>a bill that they introduce
>making it legal...that would be
>epic.

That would definitely be a hoot when it's already illegal and they would essentially be testifying that they are violating the law, lOL!

Rambo · Dec 29, 2014

I am 100% in support of this change. Where do I send emails or letters to show my support. I see planes locating big bucks in the high country every year that I worked hard to find only to have an outfitter come in and kill all the nice bucks in the area with zero sweat involved to find them! This would definitely help out the hunters that can't afford to fly everyday in July and August. Hell yes!

TOPGUN · Dec 29, 2014

>I am 100% in support of
>this change. Where do I
>send emails or letters to
>show my support. I see
>planes locating big bucks in
>the high country every year
>that I worked hard to
>find only to have an
>outfitter come in and kill
>all the nice bucks in
>the area with zero sweat
>involved to find them! This
>would definitely help out the
>hunters that can't afford to
>fly everyday in July and
>August. Hell yes!

Just to make it clear in case you missed it. What you saw them doing is already a violation of the existing statute. Some way it just needs to be enforced and the violators that get caught need severe penalties, and IMHO that includes confiscation of the plane.

jm77 · Dec 29, 2014

Topgun said: "Just to make it clear in case you missed it. What you saw them doing is already a violation of the existing statute. Some way it just needs to be enforced and the violators that get caught need severe penalties, and IMHO that includes confiscation of the plane."

Remember, the inclusion of the '24 hr rule' renders the statute useless for the time being. No D.A. would prosecute because of it. In 2015 Chapter 2 of G&F regulation comes open for review. This should be a priority, for sure.

BuzzH · Dec 29, 2014

LAST EDITED ON Dec-29-14 AT 01:17PM (MST)[p]Topgun, your post is not true, the 24 hour regulation changes the intent of statute.

That's the whole problem, the regulation should be removed and/or mirror the language of statute.

The regulation jacked the statute.

That's what we're going to try to fix is the conflict between statute and regulation.

A person wouldn't think it would be too tough to do...but we'll see.

edit: I see jm77 beat me to it.

TOPGUN · Dec 29, 2014

LAST EDITED ON Dec-29-14 AT 01:55PM (MST)[p]Sorry about that, because up here in MI a Reg. cannot overrule a statute! In fact, the Reg. is promulgated under the authority of the law/statute and there should never be a conflict between the two if the people who write it know what they're doing. It will be very interesting when this is brought up to see if anyone tries to defeat your proposal.

Founder · Dec 29, 2014

I had the plane buzz over me last year in Wyoming. I don't think it's fair to the game, but not much different than shooting them at 800 yards or rifle hunting during the rut. It's just unfortunate the way things go. I understand an outfitter trying to stay in business doing everything he can within the law to be as successful as possible. That's my perspective as a business owner.
However, as a hunter, I think it's crappy to fly an airplane to scout. I was sitting on that ridge last year in Wyoming after having packed in several miles when the plane buzzed over me. I could see the dude sitting in the backseat with big bino's and it disgusted me.
Could you imagine if flying cost nothing? There wouldn't be any big deer in western Wyoming because huge numbers of people would fly to scout. None of those bucks would be able to slip through the cracks.
Back to what I've said before, sportsmen are going to have to find a way to give the game a better chance at survival or tags will continue to decrease as success increases.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
Will you LIKE MonsterMuleys.com on Facebook! I need a friend....

TOPGUN · Dec 29, 2014

"Back to what I've said before, sportsmen are going to have to find a way to give the game a better chance at survival or tags will continue to decrease as success increases."

It's going to be tough because it's mostly ethics that are hard, if not impossible to enforce, and that's a huge part of what we're talking about nowadays.

fullthrottle · Dec 29, 2014

Wolfhunter, I like your name, but you sound like a jackass!

alaska_bou · Dec 29, 2014

This is NOT just an outfitter issue. Here in central WY there is a fairly well known mule deer hunter who has killed a handful of 200" class bucks over the last ten or so years. Many years he would regularly purchase commissioner/governor tags so he could hunt any unit he wanted and has told me to my face that his typical method was to fly the areas, mark potential bucks via GPS and return to those locations by dirt bike.

This particular hunter has moved his efforts to the western part of the state but it wouldn't surprise me one bit if he still uses these tactics.

My point is, this is probably happening more than people realize by resident and non resident hunters, not just well-capitalized outfitters.

jm77 · Dec 29, 2014

>This is NOT just an outfitter
>issue. Here in central WY
>there is a fairly well
>known mule deer hunter who
>has killed a handful of
>200" class bucks over the
>last ten or so years.
>Many years he would regularly
>purchase commissioner/governor tags so he
>could hunt any unit he
>wanted and has told me
>to my face that his
>typical method was to fly
>the areas, mark potential bucks
>via GPS and return to
>those locations by dirt bike.
>
>
>This particular hunter has moved his
>efforts to the western part
>of the state but it
>wouldn't surprise me one bit
>if he still uses these
>tactics.
>
>My point is, this is probably
>happening more than people realize
>by resident and non resident
>hunters, not just well-capitalized outfitters.
>

You are correct, this is not just an outfitter issue. +1 on your post bou.

cmbbulldog · Dec 29, 2014

" What is the difference between a horse and an airplane for scouting?"

You cant be serious?

wyohighcountry · Dec 29, 2014

First thing I thought of when I saw this thread was nontypical. Not a fan of that b.s. I lived in Alaska and the mentality up there towards the sheep is totally f'd up too. Outfitters and residents with money hammer the legal rams by "scouting" from the air. Not fair as far as I'm concerned. Especially when your pimping out our wild game.

piper · Dec 29, 2014

I honestly wonder about the politics in Wyoming, Maybe they won't do a thing? All it takes is someone like wolfhunter in there as majority leader or speaker and they will dance around the issue till the cows come home. As they say Its going to be interesting.

jm77 · Dec 29, 2014

Here's how we can all help with this. Mike Choma, Wildlife Law Enforcement Supervisor at the Casper District Office wants emails directed at him at [email protected]

They already know of the issue with the statute 23-3-306(a) and understand that needs to be fixed.

I won't tell anyone what to say, but I will tell him(and already have in person) that I want aerial scouting stopped and drones added to the definition of aircraft.

mightyhunter · Dec 30, 2014

I sent an email to Mr. Choma. Thanks for posting the email address.

fullthrottle · Dec 30, 2014

77 thanks for the info. Email has been sent.

mightyhunter · Dec 30, 2014

I already had a response to my email from the G&F.

TOPGUN · Dec 30, 2014

LAST EDITED ON Dec-30-14 AT 12:13PM (MST)[p]I also sent one to Mike today!

EDIT: Just got this email back already from Mike:

Mike, thank you for your comments. The Department is receiving similar concerns to the ones you expressed, and will be considering regulatory changes to address this issue during the upcoming big game season setting process. I will add your comments to the ones already received and consider them as we draft proposals to take to the public. Thanks again for your comments.

DoubleDropMuley · Jan 4, 2015

I agree that there should not be scouting allowed by plane period. No ethics at all actually pure ignorance!!!! I had a tag in Wyoming and the night before opener I was out looking around and was putting a stalk on a couple muley bucks to take some pictures and here comes a plane low and right over the bucks off they went, I had an elk tag not muley but still pissed me off. So much for the 24 hr period your not supposed to fly. And by the way big difference between aircraft and horses (WH). Long Range shooting (hunting) not right either but as long as there is no laws or ethics on go's the BS!!! JMO

wolfhunter · Jan 4, 2015

I guess you fellas that keep bringing up the horse don't know how to use a horse... I have scouted and killed a TON of trophy animals using my horse. I am zero with the plane.... Maybe, I just do not know how to use the plane? I would take my horse over the plane for killing big bucks any day of the week!!!!!!!!!!

It's about a perceived advantage. You would save more bucks by outlawing the use of horses than you will ever save outlawing the use of airplanes....THATS A GIANT FACT!!!! But horses are ethically acceptable to the majority!!!! My point is if you don't own a horse, your at a disadvantage over those that do own horses. Where do we stop making laws????

TOPGUN · Jan 4, 2015

WH---You sure talk out of both sides of your mouth! You detest long range shooting and say that will be the death of a lot more big bucks because of it. Then you turn right around and want to allow the easiest way to find them and that's by flying when you can cover more area in a plane in five minutes than you could in five days on a horse. Use some common sense man!

wolfhunter · Jan 4, 2015

Your missing it again as always popgun...

HORSES HELP HUNTERS KILL WAY MORE BIG BUCKS THAN AIRPLANES EVER WILL...

HORSES ARE A BIGGER ADVANTAGE TO HUNTERS THAN AIRPLANES...

THE PROBLEM IS NOT HORSES, AIRPLANES, LONG RANGE RIFLES OR OTHER TECHNICAL EQUIPMENT IT'S ABOUT THE MANAGEMENT NOT ADAPTING TO THE NEW HUNTER. WE ALL ARE THE PROBLEM, NOT JUST AIRPLANE SCOUTERS...

Do you need a chart to follow or would you like someone to write it out in crayons for you popgun....!!

TOPGUN · Jan 4, 2015

LAST EDITED ON Jan-04-15 AT 06:08PM (MST)[p]WH---You don't need to shout and I'd also appreciate it if you would keep this on an adult level and use my proper username like I do in responding to you because your first and last lines sounded like you're taking lessons from a guy in Laramie! Nobody is arguing that horses don't help legal hunters take game because they are needed to access otherwise inaccessible back country where going in on foot would be impossible. If horses weren't able to be used, do you realize how many million acres would be unable to be hunted in our western states that isn't even designated as a wilderness area? To include horses in with all the other technological advances like we are talking about is more than stretching it. Furthermore, by outlawing planes for scouting we are doing exactly what you stated is needed and that is that we ARE using management of the hunter to eliminate at least one or two more things that are not needed for legitimate ethical hunting.

idahobone · Jan 4, 2015

Well said topgun.

nfh · Jan 4, 2015

LAST EDITED ON Jan-04-15 AT 06:44PM (MST)[p]Horses have been used for hunting for years...

planes scare me cause next is rocket launcher to bring down game from the plane. I know some people use helicopters to hunt hogs. But on private proptery then so be it. But on public that is so unfair .I Couldnt imagine elk hunting in the mountains and a plane ruining my hunt ..

every year during deer season a local flyer flies the riverbottom. Drives me nuts. I find it funny it happens every year.

In 2011 I got offered to Scout for mountain goats in a plane. I Said no. It felt great to hunt for the goat like a true hunter

I Understand technology has Changed the hunting industry. I Choose not to Use a 2000 yard gun.My binos are only 10x 42. I dont need Super Binos But I Sure do love Using my horses.

jm77 · Jan 4, 2015

>LAST EDITED ON Jan-04-15
>AT 06:44?PM (MST)
>
>Horses have been used for hunting
>for years...
>
>
>planes scare me cause next is
>rocket launcher to bring down
>game from the plane. I
>know some people use helicopters
>to hunt hogs. But on
>private proptery then so be
>it. But on public that
>is so unfair .I Couldnt
>imagine elk hunting in the
>mountains and a plane ruining
>my hunt ..
>
>every year during deer season a
>local flyer flies the riverbottom.
>Drives me nuts. I find
>it funny it happens every
>year.
>
> In 2011 I got offered
>to Scout for mountain goats
>in a plane. I Said
>no. It felt great to
>hunt for the goat like
>a true hunter
>
>I Understand technology has Changed the
>hunting industry. I Choose not
>to Use a 2000 yard
>gun.My binos are only 10x
>42. I dont need Super
>Binos But I Sure do
>love Using my horses.

Good post Michael!

TOPGUN · Jan 4, 2015

+1 Michael! At least some of us get it!

mulecreek · Jan 5, 2015

I find it interesting that only one person answered my question regarding flying to scout in the thread on the General Section. That one person was Topgun. I have heard several people here say that you cant compare AK to the lower 48, it is just different because its so big. Well the scenario that I was involved in is not different at all, as a matter of fact I would say it was more beneficial than aerial scouting in Wyoming because it is so wide open, every sheep can be seen.

Listen I don't like the idea of aerial scouting in Wyoming. I think firming up the regulations is a good idea. I think trying to justify the practice is darn near impossible. I also think I am being very hypocritical is saying so, given what I participated in while hunting in AK. I am also very positive that most people that oppose flying to scout would have done the exactly what I did and just go along with it.

BuzzH · Jan 5, 2015

Mulecreek,

I think you're absolutely right regarding AK. But, keep in mind that the price is being paid up there for aerial scouting as well.

When I hunted the Chugach in 1995, the area I hunted was an OTC tag, I bought my tag at walmart in Anchorage.

Now, that same unit is a permit only unit that is really tough to draw.

I feel the exact same will happen here in Wyoming. The more technology we allow the less opportunity and the quicker we get to a permit only situation.

IMO, the price paid by the sheep hunters in the Chugach, was a steep one for choosing to look the other way on aerial scouting.

Just because you did the same as many others up there in AK, does not make you a hypocrite regarding not wanting aerial scouting to happen in Wyoming.

While WH makes some semi-valid points regarding other technology, I suggest he start the campaign to outlaw horses, optics, and LR rifles.

I think a good starting point and a good place to draw the line is with aerial scouting of any kind being prohibited in Wyoming.

mulecreek · Jan 5, 2015

I participated in a survey from AK F&G regarding sheep hunting last year and it largely covered the idea of making more areas draw areas to improve trophy quality. I personally believe the area I hunted was just over hunted given the difficulty in finding a legal ram let alone a shot opportunity. We also encountered times where outfitters were crossing the imaginary lines they had agreed to with other outfitters. The excuse was always too many hunters booked and not enough legal rams. Whether the regulation is changed or not, hopefully it is, the practice by outfitters of flying to scout in Wyoming will eventually implode on them as it is in other areas.

BuzzH · Jan 5, 2015

Mulecreek,

I agree 100%, the ones that will suffer the most from shorter seasons and permit only are the outfitters.

The very group that is abusing the use of aircraft and technology the most.

Watch how fast a 90-10 split on deer happens when Wyoming Residents are forced into state-wide permit only deer hunting.

Unfettered technology comes with a high price tag and will ultimately impact everyone.

Typical of the entitlement attitude that wont be told what to do.

jm77 · Jan 5, 2015

There is no doubt that flying in Alaska has impacted sheep, moose and to a certain extent spring bear hunting. Many sheep and moose areas became draw and it was a joke that many people were flying and spotting the same legal animals. The race was on!

I did not benefit from aerial scouting on my spring grizzly hunt. My Dall hunt was in Sept and prior to my hunt, the outfitter did aerial scout the only OTC area he hunts. He spotted several legal rams, prior to the opener in Aug, including the ram I killed in Sept. which happened to be in a very difficult area to access(no landing spots). So I guess I'm a hypocrite too Mulecreek.

My choice would have been not to go Dall hunting or try and find some outfitter who doesn't scout from a plane. DIY Dall hunts are not possible to my knowledge.

That being said, Buzz is right. Wyoming is a good place to start and ban aerial scouting like it reads in statute, before we end up with more LQ areas and less opportunity to hunt.

Zeke · Jan 8, 2015

>Unfettered technology comes with a high
>price tag and will ultimately
>impact everyone.
>
>Typical of the entitlement attitude that
>wont be told what to
>do.

Plus one!
Zeke

sageadvice · Jan 8, 2015

"Typical of the entitlement attitude that wont be told what to do."

I don't always agree with Buzz but when i do, as here, i'll give credit when it's due. +2

Joey

It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"

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