New debate on HB0002

Founder

Founder

Founder Since 1999
Messages
11,469
So it looks like HB0002 will pass with the wording, "The selling of wildlife geographic locations." That is what would no longer be allowed. Fair enough.

However, I'm curious how that would effect the employee of an outfitter, or even a sub-contractor?
As an employee, could I "give" that information for free to my employer so he can use it as part of his hunt package?
And if I can, couldn't I then "give" it to my employer if I worked for a consulting company and then he could provide it as part of a package?

There were no exceptions in the bill for outfitters, guides or anyone else. I'm just curious how it might effect outfitters. I asked one outfitter and he doesn't think it effects them at all because he employs his scouters.

Neither the definition of an outfitter or a guide in statute mention anything concerning locating game and imparting that information. In fact, the definitions all revolve around the taking of wildlife. Forest Service permits also aren't at all for scouting, only for actually accompanying hunters in the field.

I'm just curious how it would work? Could someone like me still be allowed to scout, maybe as an employee providing all the geographical location information of the wildlife to the outfitter to pass onto guides and hunters?

I want to continue my scouting. I like doing it. Just want to make sure I do it legally. They spent three years trying to get the bill right, I'd expect it's right now!

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
@mm_founder on Instagram
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-15-19 AT 06:37PM (MST)[p]Sounds like you hate outfitters but yet want to be like one. So buy a camp. Get a outfitting lic. Warning it isnt cheap to run this buissness. Make sure you help contribute and clean trails. Cant rely on the forest service for that. They are to busy cruising around.

I just solved your problem. If this doesnt help get some midol and tampons
 
Yelp..what he said...sell one to pay for expenses? Hell its all about multiplication after that...x25 or x30.
You could probably get a couple residents to work for cheap. I hear a few are giving live info away for free?
 
I don't hate outfitters! When have I ever said that? Just cause I do something legally that many of them don't like some how means I hate them? That's silly.

Let's have some intelligent conversation. I'm interested in hearing intelligent opinions, not a bunch blah blah, I hate outfitter BS. Come on. There?s got to be someone to have a good debate/conversation with. I'm just curious on the new law and it's effects on outfitters.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
@mm_founder on Instagram
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
I look at it like this. Outfitters will say they aren't hiring guides to specifically scout. They are there to tend stock, cut firewood, etc. As a by product maybe they see a big buck and tell the outfitter about it.

John Smith hires you to scout out a trail and water for a hunt he has in region XX for a weekend. You charge him $500 a day for a total of $1k. While scouting out water on a ridge you just happen to see a monster 2x2 with a 7" outside spread. Basically a dream buck. You inform John Smith about access, trail issues, and water. And you inform him about the dream 2x2 you saw just as conversation filler. He isn't paying you for the location of specific wildlife. He is paying you for terrain info and you can freely share what you see while up there as you see fit.

Or maybe you charge different tiers for the type of water you find? And if there happens to be wildlife in the area that you think you should warn your client about just so he takes precautions so he doesn't get attacked by a territorial deer in the area that is extremely thoughtful of you.

Wouldn't it have been nice if the runner that was attacked by the mountain lion had been warned about lions when he bought a book about the trails on horse head? Just seems like common courtesy and it helps protect you from getting sued.

You could sell camp locations and again if there happens to be wildlife in the area its really thoughtful of you to warn your customers about them.

Seems like its going to be extremely hard to enforce unless they make it illegal to share the location of any wildlife. Or unless they make it illegal for an employee or contractor to share the location with whoever is paying them. But than you tell your employers brother and its legal.

Anyway have fun selling packages this year Founder. I hope you put a client on every single buck that outfitters are surrounding... I mean hunting.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-15-19 AT 10:02PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-15-19 AT 08:50?PM (MST)

Outfitters have to get the high dollar insurance, have to pay for a license, have to pay a lawyer to write up their stuff so they dont get sued, feed horses all yr, and or lease horses, keep horses shod all season, own many trucks and trailers, diesel fuel and or gas, pay wages to cooks, guides, and wranglers. Im sure there is a list of stuff i dont know about.
At the end of the yr after the bills are payed they prob dont make what most of us make.
Oh yeah I for got to metion buying a camp. Established outfitting camps are going for around 100k
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-15-19 AT 11:39PM (MST)[p]So there was no wording in regards to Outfitters? How about becoming a contractor to an Outfitter?

'Ike'

Bowhunter...
 
>LAST EDITED ON Feb-15-19
>AT 11:39?PM (MST)
>
>So there was no wording in
>regards to Outfitters? How
>about becoming a contractor to
>an Outfitter?
>
>'Ike'
>
>Bowhunter...


Unless regulation makes exclusions, this bill makes the selling illegal to anyone, including outfitters. It also makes it illegal for an outfitter to sell locations.
 
Founder, sell scouting packages for area knowledge and camping spots, trail heads, distances to certain basins, water, great tree stand locations, etc.

I can't see how they can enforce. All this would be forest service and you can always double check with them again on permits/licenses for that stuff.

I don't think you should sell anything to an outfitter as they have proven through the outfitters association that they think they own Wyoming wildlife and wilderness. I don't hate outfitters personally, I just think the association is a corrupt elitist thing. Providing info to them friends or not is giving the association more power to monopolize their own gig.

Keep it to direct consumers of your services. Scouting doesn't always have to be a specific wildlife it can be a special place you don't give out to just anyone. A special place can carry a higher price tag than not so special of a place.

I work in a regulated profession and they have all kinds of laws/regulation. States don't enforce anything their laws and regulations are to deter and then if caught to fine. Money is the end game. They never enforce!!!!

Government make laws like these and then relay on the public to enforce it by being the police. They turn all of us into whinny tattle tellers. Other than, unlawful behavior in the field like poaching and wildlife harassment, I don't think people should police other people.

This is why I have been so vocal about guys like jm77, hoss, BuzzH and Topgun using government to control free enterprise. Selling a scouting package to a geographical locations for wildlife is hardly agains the spirit of fair chase.

I do agree that flying and drones are over the line with fair chase but what you did isn't in my opinion giving the deer an unfair advantage. But that discussion has been exauslted. Government will be very slow to enforce.

That being said I would take caution with the wording in advertising as well as personal communication with your customers. I think saying this is a great place to camp (glassing points for example). You never know if anyone of your opponents to your actions will try to trap you and then take it to the government to enforce it. Seems like there are people that have nothing else better to do than enforce government rules just because they don't like what you do.

I say Keep scouting just to piss off jm77, BuzzH, hoss, and topgun!
 
Founder, Broomer has some great advice for you...if you want to get fined...Advertising "camping spots" for $1500 certainly wouldn't tip off a G&F investigator to wrong doing... goodness....
 
I think the real question in regards to this new law prohibiting, "Selling of Wildlife Geographical Locations", is......
Could someone like me, or you, still be allowed to scout, as an employee or sub-contractor of an outfitter, providing all the geographical location information of the wildlife to the outfitter to pass onto guides and hunters to use during the hunt?

And if so, what would the legal reasons be that would make it OK to sell the locations to the outfitter, but no one else? You know what I mean?

I'm sure there are situations where independently sub-contracted guides, or employee guides, locate game and then mark X's on maps which are provided to the outfitter and then he shares the information with other guides. Is that "selling" or is it just "giving" information to the outfitter?

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
@mm_founder on Instagram
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
"The selling of geographic wildlife locations." Does that mean current location, or years previous, or future possible locations?
Good luck Founder fighting city hall.
 
I would bet if you are a licensed guide working for an outfitter, and scouting during the summer for that outfitter, you would be left alone. On the other hand, if you are free lancing and selling coordinates, maps, etc. to any/all outfitters in the area, you are in violation of the intent of the law. I guess you will have to let the ink dry on the law & ask the G&F (or A.G.'s) office for their opinion.
 
If somebody draws a difficult tag and they dont have the funds to hire a outfitter for a guided hunt maybe they should grow some balls and put in their time and hard work and earn their buck!
 
>If somebody draws a difficult tag
>and they dont have the
>funds to hire a outfitter
>for a guided hunt maybe
>they should grow some balls
>and put in their time
>and hard work and earn
>their buck!


Because someone isn't rich enough to hire an outfitter but does have money to hire someone to scout, they have small balls unless they go diy? That's probably the funniest, dumbest, stupidest post I've read on the subject.

From your posts I would guess you are a guide or outfitter. I could be wrong. But the bias is strong in this one.
 
Come on. Let's talk about the subject and questions. Ignore the silly comments just meant to berate people. And for those just wanting to berate others or post worthless comments, please refrain from doing so.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
@mm_founder on Instagram
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
>Come on. Let's talk about the
>subject and questions. Ignore the
>silly comments just meant to
>berate people. And for those
>just wanting to berate others
>or post worthless comments, please
>refrain from doing so.
>
>Brian Latturner
>MonsterMuleys.com
>@mm_founder on Instagram
>LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
>on Facebook!

I agree Brian.

Until the G&F Commission promulgates rules this year, it's anyone's guess what the specifics of this new law will be. Speculation is just that, until the regulations are approved. The new Director, Brian Nevik, was adamantly opposed to the practice of selling locations, so that will steer the regulation process I'm sure.
 
Seems like they made it broad enough to prevent subcontracting with an outfitter. But if that's the case, i?m not sure how guides will be able to scout for outfitters either.
 
I wonder how closely any rule will need to resemble the statute? Maybe the wildlife commission can carve out exceptions for outfitters even though the statute doesn't reflect any exceptions?

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
@mm_founder on Instagram
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
>I would bet if you are
>a licensed guide working for
>an outfitter, and scouting during
>the summer for that outfitter,
> you would be left
>alone. On the other
>hand, if you are free
>lancing and selling coordinates, maps,
>etc. to any/all outfitters in
>the area, you are in
>violation of the intent of
>the law. I guess
>you will have to let
>the ink dry on the
>law & ask the G&F
>(or A.G.'s) office for their
>opinion.
Founder
This is my first post on this topic but I wanted to give you my opinion because I think you're a good guy just doing what he loves and probably just trying to cover your expenses and you're probably also a lot like me.
The above post by Teepee probably describes my thoughts on the subject pretty closely.
When I say you're probably a lot like me here?s why.
I love scouting probably almost as much as actual hunting and I'm always looking for the biggest bucks I can find. I think what we have in common is that we want to get quality video of the animals we find. My main focus of the scouting trip is bringing a tripod spotting scope and phone scope adapter just for that reason. It's like packing a rifle on the actual hunt. I get really excited when I am able to find a big buck and then get some video of him. I go home and edit it and take some screenshot snaps and then love to show my family and friends the pics.
However I do not sell them. If I was to sell them I'm sure it wouldn't be long until folks started thinking I was a bad guy. I have to say I wouldn't blame them in fact honestly that's kind of how I feel about what you're doing by selling your buck locations. I think by you posting up the pics of particular animals and offering them and their locations up for sale is where you're rubbing folks the wrong way. I'm sure I know the main motivating factor behind all of this and which I totally understand by the way is that you love hunting monster muleys and this is one way you found to be able to do it and look for that giant buck and help pay the expenses at the same time.
And when the public found out you were using this info to find guys to point share for you in Wyoming you just got yourself in a deeper hole.
I hope you can find a way to do this legally whether it be just moving to Wyoming and hunting every year the way you want or maybe becoming a outfitter and following their rules and regulations.
Whatever happens I do wish you the best of luck.
 
>I would bet if you are
>a licensed guide working for
>an outfitter, and scouting during
>the summer for that outfitter,
> you would be left
>alone. On the other
>hand, if you are free
>lancing and selling coordinates, maps,
>etc. to any/all outfitters in
>the area, you are in
>violation of the intent of
>the law. I guess
>you will have to let
>the ink dry on the
>law & ask the G&F
>(or A.G.'s) office for their
>opinion.
Founder
This is my first post on this topic but I wanted to give you my opinion because I think you're a good guy just doing what he loves and probably just trying to cover your expenses and you're probably also a lot like me.
The above post by Teepee probably describes my thoughts on the subject pretty closely.
When I say you're probably a lot like me here?s why.
I love scouting probably almost as much as actual hunting and I'm always looking for the biggest bucks I can find. I think what we have in common is that we want to get quality video of the animals we find. My main focus of the scouting trip is bringing a tripod spotting scope and phone scope adapter just for that reason. It's like packing a rifle on the actual hunt. I get really excited when I am able to find a big buck and then get some video of him. I go home and edit it and take some screenshot snaps and then love to show my family and friends the pics.
However I do not sell them. If I was to sell them I'm sure it wouldn't be long until folks started thinking I was a bad guy. I have to say I wouldn't blame them in fact honestly that's kind of how I feel about what you're doing by selling your buck locations. I think by you posting up the pics of particular animals and offering them and their locations up for sale is where you're rubbing folks the wrong way. I'm sure I know the main motivating factor behind all of this and which I totally understand by the way is that you love hunting monster muleys and this is one way you found to be able to do it and look for that giant buck and help pay the expenses at the same time.
And when the public found out you were using this info to find guys to point share for you in Wyoming you just got yourself in a deeper hole.
I hope you can find a way to do this legally whether it be just moving to Wyoming and hunting every year the way you want or maybe becoming a outfitter and following their rules and regulations.
Whatever happens I do wish you the best of luck.
 
>>Come on. Let's talk about the
>>subject and questions. Ignore the
>>silly comments just meant to
>>berate people. And for those
>>just wanting to berate others
>>or post worthless comments, please
>>refrain from doing so.
>>
>>Brian Latturner
>>MonsterMuleys.com
>>@mm_founder on Instagram
>>LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
>>on Facebook!
>
>I agree Brian.
>
>Until the G&F Commission promulgates rules
>this year, it's anyone's guess
>what the specifics of this
>new law will be. Speculation
>is just that, until the
>regulations are approved. The new
>Director, Brian Nevik, was adamantly
>opposed to the practice of
>selling locations, so that will
>steer the regulation process I'm
>sure.

Agree with JM77 here...and the commission, for the most part I believe, is also well aware of, and not in favor of the practice either.

Its just amazing that laws like this are even needed. When I bought my first hunting licenses in Montana, in 1979, for a total of $6 for elk, deer, and conservation license, just didn't think hunting would become what it is today.

People doing the right thing isn't happening...and must be legislated/regulated. Just the way it is.
 
>>>Come on. Let's talk about the
>>>subject and questions. Ignore the
>>>silly comments just meant to
>>>berate people. And for those
>>>just wanting to berate others
>>>or post worthless comments, please
>>>refrain from doing so.
>>>
>>>Brian Latturner
>>>MonsterMuleys.com
>>>@mm_founder on Instagram
>>>LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
>>>on Facebook!
>>
>>I agree Brian.
>>
>>Until the G&F Commission promulgates rules
>>this year, it's anyone's guess
>>what the specifics of this
>>new law will be. Speculation
>>is just that, until the
>>regulations are approved. The new
>>Director, Brian Nevik, was adamantly
>>opposed to the practice of
>>selling locations, so that will
>>steer the regulation process I'm
>>sure.
>
>Agree with JM77 here...and the commission,
>for the most part I
>believe, is also well aware
>of, and not in favor
>of the practice either.
>
>Its just amazing that laws like
>this are even needed. When
>I bought my first hunting
>licenses in Montana, in 1979,
>for a total of $6
>for elk, deer, and conservation
>license, just didn't think hunting
>would become what it is
>today.
>
>People doing the right thing isn't
>happening...and must be legislated/regulated. Just
>the way it is.

Oh boy, here we go with more from the all mighty. You can't just have a discussion. It always has to be loaded with judgmental, ?my way is the best way? BS. Go sit on your high horse somewhere else.
I'm leaving what I think of you out of the thread because that's not what it's about. Do the same or go away.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
@mm_founder on Instagram
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-16-19 AT 02:56PM (MST)[p]Brian,

What discussion do you want to have?

There's a reason why laws and regulations like this happen, and why legislators, Game and Fish, and the hunting public see a need for them. Its not all about you, in fact, a majority of the bill has nothing to do with scouting services.

Are you looking for a discussion about how you can skirt the law/regulations and still do what you want?

Are you wanting the regulations to ensure that there is no way for you to continue to operate?

If this is such a big deal for you, like others have mentioned get an outfitters license, hire some guides, and do it right.

Seems simple enough.

Just to clarify, its been my experience, that rules, regulations, and laws are not written for the 99.5 percent of the people that seem to operate within the normal parameters of whatever the rule/law/regulation was written for. Its for the .5 percent that we have to go through all the trouble of having laws/rules/regulations.

Seems selfish that .5 percent create all these troubles and then think they're being picked on and that the whole world is against them. Its also been my observation that the .5 percent the rules are written for, always try to find a way for their actions to continue.

Also to clarify, this isn't just an observation that only applies to hunting and fishing...happens in the workforce, general laws, etc. etc. all the time.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-16-19 AT 04:16PM (MST)[p]So what I see, besides the obvious is that it may not cover 'word of mouth'...Therefore a guide working for Outfitters would still be able to do it, as they are not technically saling it per 'se...

They're being paid by the outfitter for the job...Maybe, maybe not!

And Buzz, it's 2019, not 1979! A ton of things have changed, you should just be happy we're all still able to hunt!

'Ike'

Bowhunter...
 
After 3 years I'd sure think that the legislation they will pass is exactly what they want. They clearly have decided they don't want someone selling geographical locations of wildlife. Fair enough, I'll abide.

I am however looking at how I can continue to do what I enjoy doing legally. I don't see a problem with that.

I can't see how I'm ?skirting the law? if I have a way to do what I want to do, legally. 3 years has been invested by many people in making this law. It's got to be right by now! Right?

I'm just curious as to how it?ll effect those who are employed by an outfitter. Obviously I'm not going to buy a camp, but I don't think that's necessary. That's what I'm wondering though. Maybe the actual owner of the outfitting business is the only one who can legally scout and sell location information as part of a package. I don't know, that's why I began the thread.

As I read it, it seems pretty simple and applies to everyone. I don't think it's right to pass a law with the intent of only enforcing it towards me and looking the other way for outfitters who might sell an X on a map as part of a hunt package or drop camp package.

You are right though BuzzH, I will continue to sell reports on areas if I can do so legally. I'm sure I won't be abiding by the rules in YOUR book, but will abide by the real laws. They?ll make changes if they choose to do so and I'll abide then as well.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
@mm_founder on Instagram
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
Mr Latturner I would suggest you take a step back and look at it all. Where you are... You have managed to do what most of us only talk about or dream of. You've carved out a living doing just what you like. I have no doubts that you will continue to do so. Congratulations...

You've obviously run into problems in Wyoming. Those problems will not desist and you will lose. Plain and simple.

If I were in your shoes, I'd call it ship sailed and bid adue the problems that come with it. When ppl find an axe they enjoy grinding, they usually don't stop. Wyoming G is not the only place, or imo even the best place, to watch and enjoy scouting incredible mule deer within 4 hours of your door...
 
Brian, I hate to say it, but whatever you come up with, especially in WY...Someone?s going to come after you and try and stop it!

'Ike'

Bowhunter...
 
Brian,

If you think its worth the risk to try to end-run whatever regulation package Wyoming puts together, its not going to be me paying the fine, lawyers, and sitting out hunting seasons in all the compact states.

Do what you want, doesn't matter to me.
 
The way I see it is government doesn't solve problems they just convolute the system with more regulation that will cost them money to inforce and ultimately cost us tax payers or resident tax payers. That will increase cost across the board for these departments and non-res costs will increase.

I'm not suggesting you lie about what you are doing, be transparent, be resolved that government shouldn't flex their fist and suppress the people.

Scouting is legal, selling scouting packages are legal. Selling geographical locations of wildlife is what isn't legal. A G&F investigator can waste all the time he wants on the back of tax dollars. Wyoming would be hard pressed to convict a guy on a suspicion of violating law by selling a scouting package of the area and camping locations. They have to have proof and intent to sell geographical wildlife locations and I can't see where they would be able to gather enough proof.

Also what's the penalty? Surely it's nothing close to poaching, correct? I'd say maybe as bad as a speeding ticket, maybe. So G&F is going to investigate a speeding ticket? That's my opinion, I'd sure like to see the final penalty on it.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-16-19 AT 06:08PM (MST)[p]I'm struggling to determine how an outfitter doesn't fall under that wording. An outfitter (including his employees/subcontractors) scouts an area, finds game. A hunter shows up, pays money, and the outfitter takes said hunter to the location.

Also, how are outfitted drop camps not included in the wording?

Sticking to the topic, is there an outfitters license, permit, or something that would allow you to continue providing scouting services?
 
A New debate on HB0002

LAST EDITED ON Feb-16-19 AT 07:25PM (MST)[p]I'm a little surprised that no one has mentioned the same thing going on in Montana. Here's an interesting read to Montana's proposal: https://leg.mt.gov/bills/2019/SB0199/SB0127_1.pdf

It sounds like guides and outfitters are exempt from the law in Montana!

SENATE BILL NO. 1271 INTRODUCED BY J. COHENOUR2 3 A BILL FOR AN ACT ENTITLED: "AN ACT PROHIBITING THE SALE OF WILDLIFE IDENTIFICATION4 INFORMATION FOR HUNTING; PROVIDING EXEMPTIONS AND PENALTIES; AND PROVIDING AN5 IMMEDIATE EFFECTIVE DATE."6 7 BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF MONTANA:8 9 NEW SECTION. Section 1. Sale of wildlife location and identification information for hunting10 prohibited -- penalties -- exemptions.11 (1) A person may not advertise or receive remuneration for providing a hunter with location and12 identification information of a game animal as defined by 87-2-101 or trophy animal as described in 87-6-907 to13 aid the hunter in the taking of that specific big game animal or trophy animal.14 (2) Location and identification information prohibited by subsection (1) includes:15 (a) geographical coordinates of the location of the animal or any maps, drawings, illustrations, or other16 documents that show the location of the animal; and17 (b) photographs, drawings, descriptions, or other information that identify the animal.18 (3) (a) A person convicted of a violation of this section shall be fined not less than $50 or more than19 $1,000 or be imprisoned in the county detention center for not more than 6 months, or both. In addition, the20 person, upon conviction or forfeiture of bond or bail, may be subject to forfeiture of any current hunting, fishing,21 or trapping license issued by this state and the privilege to hunt, fish, or trap in this state or to use state lands,22 as defined in 77-1-101, for recreational purposes for a period of time set by the court.23 (b) A violation of this section may also result in an order to pay restitution pursuant to 87-6-905 through24 87-6-907.25 (4) This section does not apply to:26 (a) government agencies or employees, contractors, or designees of a government agency performing27 lawful duties;28 (b) resident landowners guiding hunters on land owned by or leased to the landowner; or29 (c) an outfitter or guide licensed pursuant to Title 37, chapter 47, part 3, employed by a nonresident30
 
Like I questioned earlier, maybe the wildlife commission will make an exception for outfitters and guides. It seems like that would be in statute though, not just something the commission would have the latitude to do.

Speaking of ?latitude?, but a different definition. From what I can find, ?geographical location? is a single point on earth, defined by latitude and longitude. That would essentially be a GPS coordinate. That would make sense, since that's the talk all the time, is selling GPS coordinates. I've never sold GPS coordinates, but have provided a mark on an image of where the wildlife was, so I would concede that it's about the same.
So, that's what can no longer be provided as part of my report, right? They?d outlaw more if they wanted to outlaw more, correct?

All a dude can do is abide by the law based on the rules and definitions of the words. After 3 years, what they pass has to be what they want.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
@mm_founder on Instagram
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
RE: A New debate on HB0002

Jim?s thats cause it's unethical to buy the coordinates and unfair to other hunters ;)

Ok first how is ?geographic locations? defined? Is it a drainage? A named place? Coordinates? It seems to me like it's an exact point or place. If it's not then I would imagine they will have to define how big of an area geographic location stands for.

?The selling of wildlife geographic locations? I read this and it says wildlife. It doesn't say ?The selling of an animals geographic location?. If geographic location means more than a specific coordinate than it seems like HF, Epic, Go Hunt, etc could all be in violation. They are selling you info on locations of wildlife. Not a specific animal or coordinate.

Ok now let's look at an outfitter. You are paying him for multiple services. Not just one service. One of those services is to take you to the geographic location of wildlife. Would paying someone to take you to the geographic location of wildlife be the same as paying for the geographic location? I think it is. Maybe the court of law sees it different?

I believe they will have to exempt all outfitters and guides the way it's written at the moment. If they wrote it like this ?The selling of wildlife geographic locations without a permit? and of course they could give an outfitter a permit. Keeps you from doing it on your own founder but it's still legal for an outfitter to keep doing what they are doing.
 
>Like I questioned earlier, maybe the
>wildlife commission will make an
>exception for outfitters and guides.
>It seems like that would
>be in statute though, not
>just something the commission would
>have the latitude to do.
>
>
>Speaking of ?latitude?, but a different
>definition. From what I can
>find, ?geographical location? is a
>single point on earth, defined
>by latitude and longitude. That
>would essentially be a GPS
>coordinate. That would make sense,
>since that's the talk all
>the time, is selling GPS
>coordinates. I've never sold GPS
>coordinates, but have provided a
>mark on an image of
>where the wildlife was, so
>I would concede that it's
>about the same.
>So, that's what can no longer
>be provided as part of
>my report, right? They?d outlaw
>more if they wanted to
>outlaw more, correct?
>
>All a dude can do is
>abide by the law based
>on the rules and definitions
>of the words. After 3
>years, what they pass has
>to be what they want.
>
>
>Brian Latturner
>MonsterMuleys.com
>@mm_founder on Instagram
>LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
>on Facebook!


Dude! Seriously, you keep going back to this. "After 3 years blah blah blah". You're not lacking in intelligence. What you are doing is not welcome in Wyoming. So be it! Walk away. You sound like a child caught in the cookie jar or a jaded ex. Eff it. Walk away and find something different..
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-16-19 AT 09:22PM (MST)[p]There are no tags left in Utah they are being sold to the highest bidder as we speak....even antlerless tags in the name of conservation! haha all this BS comes down to one thing egos and $$$ ok maybe two things.
 
>Dude! Seriously, you keep going back
>to this. "After 3 years
>blah blah blah". You're not
>lacking in intelligence. What
>you are doing is not
>welcome in Wyoming. So be
>it! Walk away. You sound
>like a child caught in
>the cookie jar or a
>jaded ex. Eff it. Walk
>away and find something different..
>


I won't be walking away from selling reports if I can do it legally and can feel good about doing it. Why would I? Because a few people don't want me to do anything in Wyoming at all? No, I'll have to let the law tell me what I can and can't do in regards to my reports. If they decide to outlaw every bit of information I might could provide someone, then they will. So far, they've decided that they don't want me selling wildlife geographical locations. OK, I won't.

This isn't a thread where I'm asking permission, it's just a conversation about how it might effect a guide or outfitter or anyone. And maybe what geographical locations mean exactly, if different than what most sources on the internet define it as. If I can work for an outfitter, and that's my only option, I'd do that if I could, but still need to know what is and isn't going to be allowed.

Now give me my cookie! ha ha

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
@mm_founder on Instagram
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
>>Dude! Seriously, you keep going back
>>to this. "After 3 years
>>blah blah blah". You're not
>>lacking in intelligence. What
>>you are doing is not
>>welcome in Wyoming. So be
>>it! Walk away. You sound
>>like a child caught in
>>the cookie jar or a
>>jaded ex. Eff it. Walk
>>away and find something different..
>>
>
>
>I won't be walking away from
>selling reports if I can
>do it legally and can
>feel good about doing it.
>Why would I? Because a
>few people don't want me
>to do anything in Wyoming
>at all? No, I'll have
>to let the law tell
>me what I can and
>can't do in regards to
>my reports. If they decide
>to outlaw every bit of
>information I might could provide
>someone, then they will. So
>far, they've decided that they
>don't want me selling wildlife
>geographical locations. OK, I won't.
>
>
>This isn't a thread where I'm
>asking permission, it's just a
>conversation about how it might
>effect a guide or outfitter
>or anyone. And maybe what
>geographical locations mean exactly, if
>different than what most sources
>on the internet define it
>as. If I can work
>for an outfitter, and that's
>my only option, I'd do
>that if I could, but
>still need to know what
>is and isn't going to
>be allowed.
>
>Now give me my cookie! ha
>ha
>
>Brian Latturner
>MonsterMuleys.com
>@mm_founder on Instagram
>LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
>on Facebook!


It seems to me that you're now fighting a battle just to be in a fight. And just to be "right". There is no reward for being "right". The reward us continuing to do what you love. Don't cut off your nose to spite your face. Then your just a "right" noseless idiot.

Find a way to do what you do without all the horse crap...
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-16-19 AT 10:16PM (MST)[p] Come on guys all he wants to do is hunt region G every year and still live in Utah.
You have got to give him credit he is doing whatever he can to find someone that will share points with him so he can get that tag.
His only goal is to kill the biggest buck in the Wyoming range he can find No harm right. It's only one deer a year.
If he can make a little pocket cash while doing it that's even better.
 
Since guides, outfitters, and landowners are exempt..it puts a big twist on things. Unfortunately I don't think this stops what is happening in Utah and elsewhere with guides and outfitters paying "finders fees" to buy coordinates, photos, and videos....and sending their clients to giant bucks, bulls, and other critters? In the regs outfitters and guides are exempt so they can still do this?

This was happening in Colo where a Utah outfitter was paying Colo guides "finders fees" if they located giant bucks to send their wealthy clients to shoot! I believe this would still be legal in Montana?

I'm not sure if many Wyo residents are aware but there currently is a re-known Nevada guide sending clients to Wyo through a Wyo outfitter. Wyo better figure out the wording in the new regs if they want to stop some of this nonsense!
 
Notice that Montana's reg lists not only GPS coordinates but: Location and identification information prohibited by subsection (1) includes:15 (a) geographical coordinates of the location of the animal or any maps, drawings, illustrations, or other16 documents that show the location of the animal; and17 (b) photographs, drawings, descriptions, or other information that identify the animal.
 
That's probably what Wyoming meant to say but just didn't get it worded properly.
Besides Montana is a long ways from Utah and probably doesn't have the kind of bucks he wants to put on his wall Or the quality that would make a resident want to share his points for Information on their whereabouts.
 
Founder. THE STATE OF WYOMING DOESNT WANT YOU SELLING LOCATIONS OF THEIR ANIMALS. You can get cute and try to split hairs, or circumvent, but they will adjust. And because you own zero property, pay zero taxes, and have zero votes, YOU ARENT TREATED THE SAME AS IN STATE GUIDES.

Those same in state guides who feel your hampering their buisness, will continue to push to stop it. Meaning your attempt to get cute, to split hairs, to circumvent will be met with similar regulation.

Sometimes its better to let a sleeping dog lay.

Again. Some friendly advice. GO AWAY QUIETLY.

Or the next law will be aimed at your point buying scheme which will end your yearly G hunting.

But. I'm sure you won't take that advice. And real soon you will be on here squealing about Wyoming "unfairly" targeting you with that law too.





From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
I'm not sure if Wyo residents are aware but this scenario happens every year in Wyo. Guide A that is a licensed guide in Wyo locates a particular monster buck on a particular hill in Wyo. Wyo res Guide A sends text photos to nonres Guide B that is licensed in Nevada. Nonres Guide B shares the photos of the buck with his nonres client. Guide B and his client fly out and meet Guide A at the designated spot where Wyo Guide A has been keeping tabs on the buck. The nonres ?hunter? shoots the buck in the text photo. Nonres Guide B provides Wyo Guide A with a ?finders fee? for locating and keeping tabs of the buck. High-fives to both Guides for a ?successful hunt!?

I'm sure a lot of us would agree this is a bunch of ?bull? and is currently going on in Wyo and other states. If the new regulation is put in place similar to the wording in Montana it would be totally legal for Wyo guides to continue doing this with nonres guides. Hopefully the writers of the new law will be aware of what is currently happening right under Wyo resident's noses!
 
>
>
>Founder. THE STATE OF WYOMING
>DOESNT WANT YOU SELLING LOCATIONS
>OF THEIR ANIMALS. You
>can get cute and try
>to split hairs, or circumvent,
>but they will adjust.
>And because you own zero
>property, pay zero taxes, and
>have zero votes, YOU ARENT
>TREATED THE SAME AS IN
>STATE GUIDES.
>
>Those same in state guides who
>feel your hampering their buisness,
>will continue to push to
>stop it. Meaning your
>attempt to get cute, to
>split hairs, to circumvent will
>be met with similar regulation.
>
>
>Sometimes its better to let a
>sleeping dog lay.
>
>Again. Some friendly advice.
>GO AWAY QUIETLY.
>
>Or the next law will be
>aimed at your point buying
>scheme which will end your
>yearly G hunting.
>
>But. I'm sure you won't
>take that advice. And
>real soon you will be
>on here squealing about Wyoming
>"unfairly" targeting you with that
>law too.
>
>
>
>
>
>From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN,
>PUBLIC LAND.


Where is founder trying to get "cute" or split hairs? He is asking for opinions on if people think he will still be able to do what he does, or do it under an outfitter so the outfitter gets all the info.

Everyone seems fine with outfitting and thinks its more fair to the animals. Otherwise their would be a bill on the table to ban outfitting. So whats wrong if founder is employed by an outfitter just like all the other guides that work for them?
 
Again, they'll outlaw what they don't want me to do in Wyoming. As far as going away cause there's a few guys not wanting me in the state, not happening.
I've helped a few Wyoming residents and I've had a WY Senator ask me for ideas on what he could do to modify the bill to allow me to continue. He even offered ideas to me.
So, I'm not sneaking away quietly. I'm going to continue as long as I can do so legally. If they want more stuff outlawed, they'll pass laws to let us know.
Lots of people don't think any of us should own guns, but I ain?t walking away from my guns either. They?ll have to pass laws before that happens.

Again, I'm not looking for permission here. Was just hoping to discuss how the law will effect guides, outfitters and others.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
@mm_founder on Instagram
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
>>
>>
>>Founder. THE STATE OF WYOMING
>>DOESNT WANT YOU SELLING LOCATIONS
>>OF THEIR ANIMALS. You
>>can get cute and try
>>to split hairs, or circumvent,
>>but they will adjust.
>>And because you own zero
>>property, pay zero taxes, and
>>have zero votes, YOU ARENT
>>TREATED THE SAME AS IN
>>STATE GUIDES.
>>
>>Those same in state guides who
>>feel your hampering their buisness,
>>will continue to push to
>>stop it. Meaning your
>>attempt to get cute, to
>>split hairs, to circumvent will
>>be met with similar regulation.
>>
>>
>>Sometimes its better to let a
>>sleeping dog lay.
>>
>>Again. Some friendly advice.
>>GO AWAY QUIETLY.
>>
>>Or the next law will be
>>aimed at your point buying
>>scheme which will end your
>>yearly G hunting.
>>
>>But. I'm sure you won't
>>take that advice. And
>>real soon you will be
>>on here squealing about Wyoming
>>"unfairly" targeting you with that
>>law too.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN,
>>PUBLIC LAND.
>
>
>Where is founder trying to get
>"cute" or split hairs? He
>is asking for opinions on
>if people think he will
>still be able to do
>what he does, or do
>it under an outfitter so
>the outfitter gets all the
>info.
>
>Everyone seems fine with outfitting and
>thinks its more fair to
>the animals. Otherwise their would
>be a bill on the
>table to ban outfitting. So
>whats wrong if founder is
>employed by an outfitter just
>like all the other guides
>that work for them?

EXACTLY, how is it getting ?cute? or ?skirting the law? or whatever if I want to find a way to do something legally?

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
@mm_founder on Instagram
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
I thought you were going to get a civil rights attorney and have this thrown out as unconstitutional? So what does it matter regarding finding ways to comply with an unconstitutional law, as you've characterized it?
 
"A BILL for

AN ACT relating to game and fish; providing rulemaking authority for the regulation of methods of taking wildlife;..."

This is all interesting discussion, but once this is signed into law it is up to the G&F Commission to promulgate the rules as they are being granted that authority. That process starts with the Wildlife Law Enforcement Supervisor who works closely with state lawyers to make sure when a warden writes the citation it can be fully prosecuted in court. It doesn't matter what Montana or Utah or anyone here, including me, think or do, it will be a Wyoming regulation.

Once that regulation is approved, it will be time for a new thread and if I was Brian, I would be hoping the G&F put exemptions in the regulation. That's his only hope.
 
A buddy and I looked into a guide license awhile back. We just wanted to hunt the wilderness and take a party or two.
The exam/insurance is easy enough. Being approved by Wyoga is the catch. Not sure If they'd give Brian the pass, but I'm thinking not.
 
I'm pretty sure any Wyo res can get a guides license and accompany a nonres into wilderness areas? I'm not sure if a Wyo nonres can do this? If so, there would be a lot of nonres that would get guides licenses so they could guide themselves and friends in Wyo wilderness?
 
>A buddy and I looked into
>a guide license awhile back.
>We just wanted to hunt
>the wilderness and take a
>party or two.
>The exam/insurance is easy enough. Being
>approved by Wyoga is the
>catch. Not sure If they'd
>give Brian the pass, but
>I'm thinking not.

WYOGA has nothing to do with licensing. They are just a organization that represents about half the outfitters in the actual state. No outfitter is required to be a member of WYOGA. The state outfitting and licensing board is who governs actual outfitters and guides. You cannot just "get" a guide license. You must be employed by an outfitter before being given a guide license. What you and your buddy were trying to do, would basically mean becoming an outfitter, and yes, they dont just pass out outfitting licenses like candy. Unless you have private land, you must secure permits through forest service for operation on public land, and that basically means buying out an existing outfitter in a turn-key business type deal. And even with a guide license, you cannot take compensation for a hunt and conduct a business, you MUST have an outfitting license in order to legally operate in that aspect.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-17-19 AT 09:40AM (MST)[p]
I'd recommend playing your cards closer to the vest founder. I'm not implying breaking the law, I just wouldn't announce how you think you can pull an inside straight. Loose lips sink ships. Hows that ACLU lawyer comin?



#livelikezac
 
What the game and fish write up is what will be interesting. I would think it has to relate very closely to what the legislature passes in bill, otherwise the legislature wouldn't need to be specific as they have been. They?d just pass something that gives the game and fish the authority to just do whatever they want. That's a big question of mine is, how much latitude does the game and fish have?
It sure seems strange that the game and fish can have exclusions for certain people without that being in statute.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
@mm_founder on Instagram
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
>LAST EDITED ON Feb-17-19
>AT 09:40?AM (MST)
>
>
>I'd recommend playing your cards closer
>to the vest founder. I'm
>not implying breaking the law,
>I just wouldn't announce how
>you think you can pull
>an inside straight. Loose lips
>sink ships. Hows that ACLU
>lawyer comin?
>
>
>
>#livelikezac


Tough to challenge a rule or law that doesn't exist yet. I'll let you know if they laugh me to the curb.


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
@mm_founder on Instagram
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
My opinion on the finders fee example given above is not actually selling an animals location.
I have been involved in the guiding business in Nevada and Arizona both as a sub guide and as the hunter also.
When a licensed guide in Wyoming sends a picture of an animal to a licensed guide in Utah who has a client I am sure the Wyoming guide isn't going to send the exact location of the animal along with the pics. and charge a fee just for that info. What is happening in this scenario basically is the Utah guide is booking a hunt for his client with the Wyoming guide based on the quality of the animal in the pic not its exact location. The Utah Hunter goes up to Wyoming and meets up with the Wyoming guide and they go out and hunt the animal that is just how guided hunting works sometimes. Not saying I agree with it but it is legal.
When I drew my Arizona Strip tag a few years ago I shopped around to hire a guide. Several of them sent me pictures of bucks that I would possibly be able to hunt and that is how they advertise to try to get me to book with them. Not once did any of them ever offer an exact location or even a general geographic location for a fee. I had no idea where those bucks were located other than they were in my hunt unit.
Some guides do offer scouting packages where they SELL info but don't actually accompany the hunter.
I really don't know how detailed these packages can get about exact or geographic locations of animals and I think the SELLING of these scouting packages should be banned. I'm sure the reason these states are coming up with these new regulations is to stop this practice.
If people continue to sell these scouting packages or just the simple location of animals they are violating the INTENT of the law.
Are licensed guides/outfitters exempt? I guess that remains to be seen.
 
There are some super shady things going on between out of state and Wyo resident outfitters/guides. I would think the WG&F would be concerned about finder?s fees for specific trophy animals when out of state and Wyo resident guides and outfitters are involved? Hopefully the WG&F is smart enough to include shadey stuff going on with Wyo outfitters and guides! When governor?s and commissioner tags are involved there is a lot of $ crossing hands.

Another example of shady stuff outfitting stuff going on is?..I'm aware of an out of state outfitter that books Wyo hunts through a Wyo outfitter to access his trophy hunting units. Number 1....is this legal since the nonres outfitter is going around the State of Wyoming Outfitting and Licensing Board?s system and there is a 2nd outfitter hunting a zone only meant for 1? I believe the Wyo Outfitting and Licensing Board set up specific zones and number of outfitters in units so they wouldn't overlap? Just seems a little fishy to me?
 
A couple of thoughts,

First, the Wyoming Department of Justice will helps the fish and game interpret the statute. It will go back to legislative intent of the statute. It doesn't have to be written in the statue, but will also rely on the testimony that was provided to see what the actual intent was. It will be interpreted by lawyers.

Second, there is a ton of selling big bucks going on. Outfitters booking certain hunters once a certain buck is located. They are paying fees that would make your eyes bug out. No one gets to hunt that buck except the one paying the extra fee.

You can all think that what founder is doing is so evil. You are not paying attention to what is really going on. There is a huge market for big mule deer as everyone has recognized that a giant mule deer are rarer by the year.

Rich
 
I would definitely agree that Founder's deal is small potatoes compared to the impact from the numerous guides and outfitters across the entire state of Wyo! The $ exchanging hands from Founder vs outfitters that guide sheep, deer, and elk hunters is minute...especially when you account for governor's/commissioners tag hunters. I'm not saying that what Founder is doing is good for the resource but take a good look at guides and outfitters!
 
Rich
You make some good points. However I and others are paying attention to what's going on and we do know there is a huge demand for big bucks.
The huge mind-boggling dollars you speak of trading hands are mostly the auction/governors tag holders.
The selling of those tags and allowing those guys to hunt during times of the year that are closed to the general public hunting to me is a huge crime.
I am sure there are regular guys that draw a great tag and hire a guide and do slip him an extra bonus to be one that gets to hunt the biggest buck.
However that is still different than a guy going out scouting and locating a buck and selling the location. Especially if he is not licensed and permitted to do so.
 
Buckhorn,

Let me give more detail. There are folks who have deals with outfitters for a certain level of buck. If they find a buck of the caliber that they are looking for they come hunt. If they don't have that type of buck they don't. It is some of the gov tag people, but there are a bunch of under the radar guys doing this. Frankly speaking, there is a black market for big bucks.

An example of this is, a hunter makes a standing deal of 30,000 for a 200 inch deer. The outfitter can take Joe Schmo to the deer for 6k, or hold that deer, have deep pockets get a tag and then kill the deer. Sometimes the only tag is a Wyoming commissioner tag at that point. Sometimes they just have the person apply with someone who they are already taking that has enough points just to carry them to a tag in case mr big shows up. Frankly, I'm not worried about point sharing changing in Wyoming because the outfitters are using it more than most.

I have posted several times about how this will affect outfitters/drop camps and outfitters and no one seems to know the answer. They are selling big bucks, just not the exact way founder is doing it.

Rich
 
Founder, if you're intent, I'd wait until the Commission finalizes their reg's. Then go meet with a competent Wyoming defense attorney to discuss weaknesses in the regulation as well as what might be defensible if you were ever cited. Seems like most outfitters pay their guides to go out prior to and during the seasons to find geographic locations of game for their clients. Regardless of this law, I don't see the G&F citing outfitters for scouting big game. If so, you just need a guides license and to be an employee of an outfitter, like yer guy at SNS. Remuneration would be between you and him...
 
>?Especially if he is not licensed and permitted to do so.? ????

No one has a permit or license to find deer and sell a location in any form. No such permit or license exists.

My opinion is simply, rules should be equal across the board. If I can't provide certain information in my Report Package, then an outfitter shouldn't be able to provide that exact same information in their Hunt Package either.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
@mm_founder on Instagram
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
Based on the Wyoming Administrative Rule Review Handbook, I believe the game and fish have to stick very close to what the statute says, especially if it's clear and understandable. I don't think they'll be able to make exceptions, unless exceptions are in statute.

The handbook also says rules must be constitutional, and uses the example of;
?Infringing on free speech?.
But........

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
@mm_founder on Instagram
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
>Founder, if you're intent, I'd wait
>until the Commission finalizes their
>reg's. Then go meet
>with a competent Wyoming defense
>attorney to discuss weaknesses in
>the regulation as well as
>what might be defensible if
>you were ever cited.
>Seems like most outfitters pay
>their guides to go out
>prior to and during the
>seasons to find geographic locations
>of game for their clients.
> Regardless of this law,
>I don't see the G&F
>citing outfitters for scouting big
>game. If so, you
>just need a guides license
>and to be an employee
>of an outfitter, like yer
>guy at SNS. Remuneration
>would be between you and
>him...

This is what most folks think would be the right thing for him to do.
However this is not what he is after. He is after a region G buck tag in his pocket as often as he can get one while still being a non-resident of Wyoming.
He is using his scouting service as a way to solicit possible donors for point sharing to obtain this tag.
At the same time he will be scouting for a 200 inch buck for himself and showing all the pics of the ones he's not interested in killing to attract clients or customers. The selling of the info packages isn't for him to be making a living it's just to supplement the scouting expenses for his own 200 inch plus buck.
It really is no secret if you go back and read the archives of when he first started this scouting service he even admits that's what the mission is.
Now that it's taking quite a few points to draw a G tag this is where the point sharing abuse got started.
 
I hear ya, that's why I said go consult an attorney. If he wants generate money, he can do it via an outfitter as noted. He also doesn't need to sell locations to get people to share points. Non residents here know he tags big animals. All he needs to do is ask people to party with him for a deer hunt. The rest is implied. As for abuse, I thing it's all fair game. If the G&F polled resident hunters, I'm betting 99% of us could care less about non residents point sharing...
 
Founder,

Google legislative intent, you will see what I am talking about. This is where you will be able to see what is coming your way and what records they will use when the law is ambiguous or drafted improperly. I tried to copy and paste, but my skills suck.

Rich


>Based on the Wyoming Administrative Rule
>Review Handbook, I believe the
>game and fish have to
>stick very close to what
>the statute says, especially if
>it's clear and understandable. I
>don't think they'll be able
>to make exceptions, unless exceptions
>are in statute.
>
>The handbook also says rules must
>be constitutional, and uses the
>example of;
>?Infringing on free speech?.
>But........
>
>Brian Latturner
>MonsterMuleys.com
>@mm_founder on Instagram
>LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
>on Facebook!
 
I know what you're talking about, the Wyoming handbook discusses it.
https://www.wyoleg.gov/leginfo/H-BOOKS/ARRRule.pdf
I think intent is spelled out quite well in the statute. Doesn?t seem confusing. It's short and every word in it has a definition, and I don't think any of the words have multiple definitions which could confuse a rule writer, so I don't think anyone needs to try and even determine the intent of the statute. It seems clear. But I don't know. Maybe geographical location could be questioned, but even that's a stretch. There are plenty of sources online that define geographical location.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
@mm_founder on Instagram
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
I'm still surprise by all the people that don't like what founder is doing but don't have any moral issues with outfitters. Outfitters are "pimping" big mule deer at entirely different level that what founder is doing. I guess it is ok as long as the "pimp" is licensed and insured. If founder business is blocked by this law, then it better block information being sold to outfitters.
Even though sharing information seems like it should be protected by the first amendment, professionals have created laws to prevent others from practicing their profession. For example you can't market and sale legal advice without being a lawyer or medical advice without a medical license. If you try to fight the the law with the first amendment argument, I think the courts will recognize outfitters can do this because they are licensed and you are not.
 
>>Founder, if you're intent, I'd wait
>>until the Commission finalizes their
>>reg's. Then go meet
>>with a competent Wyoming defense
>>attorney to discuss weaknesses in
>>the regulation as well as
>>what might be defensible if
>>you were ever cited.
>>Seems like most outfitters pay
>>their guides to go out
>>prior to and during the
>>seasons to find geographic locations
>>of game for their clients.
>> Regardless of this law,
>>I don't see the G&F
>>citing outfitters for scouting big
>>game. If so, you
>>just need a guides license
>>and to be an employee
>>of an outfitter, like yer
>>guy at SNS. Remuneration
>>would be between you and
>>him...
>
> This is what most folks
>think would be the right
>thing for him to do.
>
> However this is not what
>he is after. He is
>after a region G buck
>tag in his pocket as
>often as he can get
>one while still being a
>non-resident of Wyoming.
>He is using his scouting service
>as a way to solicit
>possible donors for point sharing
>to obtain this tag.
> At the same time
>he will be scouting for
>a 200 inch buck for
>himself and showing all the
>pics of the ones he's
>not interested in killing to
>attract clients or customers.
>The selling of the info
>packages isn't for him to
>be making a living it's
>just to supplement the scouting
>expenses for his own 200
>inch plus buck.
>It really is no secret if
>you go back and read
>the archives of when he
>first started this scouting
>service he even admits that's
>what the mission is.
>Now that it's taking quite a
>few points to draw a
>G tag this is where
>the point sharing abuse got
>started.


Actually, I could find someone to share points with and go hunting with whether I sold reports or not. That really has nothing to do with it at all. I've hunted with everyone I've ever applied with except one guy. Most guys whom I share points with want to going hunting together, and I'm cool with that. But I'd also have no issue if they just wanted me to point them towards a different spot. Either way is good with me.

The reason I sell my information reports is to distribute the costs of the scouting with a few guys who can't make it out to do their own scouting. I have no aspirations of having some big information business or anything. I guess when the day comes that I can't get a tag, we'll see if I continue combing the mountains up there for bucks. Probably, I'm sure I'd still find friends or family to take hunting. I don't know.
But the reports I sell allow me and a few other dudes to share costs and information. Win/Win for us.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
@mm_founder on Instagram
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
There you go Brian
It's good to see a bit more humble side of you.
For what it's worth my advice to you is to loose the cost sharing angle.
Continue doing what you're doing but just don't try to sell it.
As far as the point sharing part of it goes it appears that you should be fine as long as there's no money paid to you.
If it works out and you do take that dream buck I think all of us would admire and respect you more if you did it without the money factor involved.
And it would be e heck of a lot easier without all fight.
IMHO
 
So founder spends 30 days scouting a year and gets paid, what $5,000 a season for intel. Based on the hours per day and travel time and gas that he puts into this, he is probably making just a bit over minimum wage? This whole thing is a bit messed up, but I understand I don't like the idea of selling coordinates for a specific deer (seems like you are pimping him out), it does not sit well with me.

I would be all about spending $500 and asking Founder where is a good basin you were at 5 years ago where you saw some good bucks? I would do that in a second. Will that be legal?

The wording says "Persons selling on the internet for remuneration the location and identification information of an individual big game animal located using a GPS device."

Could Founder sell information like: "I saw some good bucks in this basin this summer for $1,000?" It will depend how the regulations are written, but if they are like what is written in the law I think he could as he is not talking about an individual buck. He likely could not sell "I saw a 190" buck in this basin...." though.

What if I call him up and we do everything over the phone or by snail mail...and the internet is not involved at all....legal or illegal?

I think it will end up that guides working for outfitters can scout and use that information to take clients hunting for specific deer. I also think Founder will be able to work for an outfitter as a guide and scout for that outfitter for profit. An outfitter does not typically sell specific GPS points, but holds a clients hand and takes them to the animal. The client might not ever be able to get back to that exact spot again.

I think finder's fees for bucks found by "non-guides" will now be illegal. Interesting. It is a good thing to address and I hope the G&F gets it more right than what is in the law as it seems very poorly written to me.....especially the "located using a GPS device"? What does that mean, pretty sure Founder didn't locate the animal using a GPS device unless Swarvoski has introduced some new technology into their binos....
 
>So founder spends 30 days scouting
>a year and gets paid,
>what $5,000 a season for
>intel. Based on the
>hours per day and travel
>time and gas that he
>puts into this, he is
>probably making just a bit
>over minimum wage? This
>whole thing is a bit
>messed up, but I
>understand I don't like the
>idea of selling coordinates for
>a specific deer (seems like
>you are pimping him out),
>it does not sit well
>with me.
>
>I would be all about spending
>$500 and asking Founder where
>is a good basin you
>were at 5 years ago
>where you saw some good
>bucks? I would do
>that in a second.
>Will that be legal?
>
>The wording says "Persons selling on
>the internet for remuneration the
>location and identification information of
>an individual big game animal
>located using a GPS device."
>
>
>Could Founder sell information like:
>"I saw some good bucks
>in this basin this summer
>for $1,000?" It will
>depend how the regulations are
>written, but if they are
>like what is written in
>the law I think he
>could as he is not
>talking about an individual buck.
> He likely could not
>sell "I saw a 190"
>buck in this basin...." though.
>
>
>What if I call him up
>and we do everything over
>the phone or by snail
>mail...and the internet is not
>involved at all....legal or illegal?
>
>
>I think it will end up
>that guides working for outfitters
>can scout and use that
>information to take clients hunting
>for specific deer. I
>also think Founder will be
>able to work for an
>outfitter as a guide and
>scout for that outfitter for
>profit. An outfitter does
>not typically sell specific GPS
>points, but holds a clients
>hand and takes them to
>the animal. The client
>might not ever be able
>to get back to that
>exact spot again.
>
>I think finder's fees for bucks
>found by "non-guides" will now
>be illegal. Interesting.
>It is a good thing
>to address and I hope
>the G&F gets it more
>right than what is in
>the law as it seems
>very poorly written to me.....especially
>the "located using a GPS
>device"? What does that
>mean, pretty sure Founder didn't
>locate the animal using a
>GPS device unless Swarvoski has
>introduced some new technology into
>their binos....

What you're reading isn't what will be passed. After amendments, it?ll be
?The selling of wildlife geographical locations?.
That's essentially GPS coordinates, as might be expected as that is what the talk is always about....gps coordinates. I've never sold gps coordinates, but have included images with a mark of where a buck was, along with much more information.
So, no more GPS coordinates or anything showing geographical locations of where bucks were seen.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
@mm_founder on Instagram
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
After this is all over the outfitters will still be able to do what every they want to. This law was make for the outfitters. If any body on here thinks this is for the wildlife they have their heads stuck in the sand. The outfitters do not want Founder or any other person after the same big bucks as them. It just amazes me how corrupt the outfitter bussiness has become.

To Founder: just keep doing what you do. you will never get the aproval of the jelous people on here. just sell a old pair of bino to a dude for $2000.00 and give your info away for free.
 
>How about where you saw bucks
>5 years ago?

That type of information isn't what they're trying to outlaw.....YET!

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
@mm_founder on Instagram
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
Curious if you tie down the giant bucks in the exact location where you seen the buck when scouting? Seriously, how many clients and bucks are killed per year by founder and his clients?

Sounds like a bunch of penis envy here.
 
Huffmad, I agree 100% with your outfitter synopsis! I'm sure that played a major role in the policy passing through.

The one area that seems to get attention is the exchange of $ or goods for a service related to wildlife. I believe that is where there is a fine line between what's legal and what's not! If Founder had a guide's license through an outfitter this likely wouldn't be an issue?


A lot of what is said in the above posts are speculation! It will be interesting to read the actual wording of the reg and what transpires!
 
>Curious if you tie down the
>giant bucks in the exact
>location where you seen the
>buck when scouting? Seriously, how
>many clients and bucks are
>killed per year by founder
>and his clients?
>
>Sounds like a bunch of penis
>envy here.


I could not agree more.
 
Look at all the cheerleaders! I wonder how many went and got an autograph from Founder at the expo.

Penis envy? Now that's funny coming from someone who....well let's just says doesn't care for them.

I will say it again. Outfitters and what founder is doing will be the downfall of our sport/heritage. Neither should be allowed on our national/state lands. Lots of lazy hunters not wanting to do what is necessary to kill a big deer. They are blinded by people like Founder killing big deer and want one too, but can't get it done on their own. Half of these guys/gals wouldn't even be in the back country if they didn't have directions to a trophy deer.
 
I encourage all of you to keep the various scenarios coming as to how Founder can be legal. Seems to me it's pretty obvious someone is watching these forums.
 
>Look at all the cheerleaders! I
>wonder how many went and
>got an autograph from Founder
>at the expo.
>
>Penis envy? Now that's funny coming
>from someone who....well let's just
>says doesn't care for them.
>
>
>I will say it again. Outfitters
>and what founder is doing
>will be the downfall of
>our sport/heritage. Neither should be
>allowed on our national/state lands.
>Lots of lazy hunters not
>wanting to do what is
>necessary to kill a big
>deer. They are blinded by
>people like Founder killing big
>deer and want one too,
>but can't get it done
>on their own. Half of
>these guys/gals wouldn't even be
>in the back country if
>they didn't have directions to
>a trophy deer.

+1

I love the short sightedness. "How many deer has founders sight lead to be killed"? Probably not more than a few. How many will Roby Dennings site get killed? How about the next dude who sees Founder at $1400 so he charges $1200 and a guarantee. Then the next guy who charges $1000 and supplies real time locations? Then the next guy who charges $900 and will GPS tag one. Then......

How many guys had trail cams 15 yrs ago? 10? 5?

You guys think Founder is the only guy wanting to turn a profit?

How about LR? 15 YRS AGO? 10?

I Think founder got targeted 100%. Of course when you are as vocal and visible as he is, it makes sense. But he ain't the first, and we all know he won't be the last.


From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
Howdy y?all
My name is Joe big time buck hunter!
I spend a ton of time out in the wild lands scouting and videoing monster bucks in several different states. I can show you pics and give you locations of where these big boys are for a price. Or if you have extra bonus points I will take trades.

Not really but this is the thing they are trying to stop.
 
>Howdy y?all
> My name is Joe big
>time buck hunter!
> I spend a ton of
>time out in the wild
>lands scouting and videoing monster
>bucks in several different states.
>I can show you pics
>and give you locations of
>where these big boys are
>for a price. Or if
>you have extra bonus points
>I will take trades.
>

And I have a guides license so it makes it all good.

Rich
 
No guide license needed.

We could just say I'm selling you an old pair of Binoculars and giving you the info for free.

I got that idea from someone on an earlier post.

Come on y?all there's gold in them thar hills
 
The guy that advertised he had pref pts to sell on this website certainly raised a red flag to me! Who would have the cahooonas to do something like that...and honestly who the heck would SERIOUSLY ever try to sell pts? Can you say "set up"? Someone is definitely trying to make a mockery of this website....and possibly has a vendetta against someone?
 
This is hilarious! Nicely done. ???
>I look at it like this.
>Outfitters will say they aren't
>hiring guides to specifically scout.
>They are there to tend
>stock, cut firewood, etc. As
>a by product maybe they
>see a big buck and
>tell the outfitter about it.
>
>
>John Smith hires you to scout
>out a trail and water
>for a hunt he has
>in region XX for a
>weekend. You charge him $500
>a day for a total
>of $1k. While scouting out
>water on a ridge you
>just happen to see a
>monster 2x2 with a 7"
>outside spread. Basically a dream
>buck. You inform John Smith
>about access, trail issues, and
>water. And you inform him
>about the dream 2x2 you
>saw just as conversation filler.
>He isn't paying you for
>the location of specific wildlife.
>He is paying you for
>terrain info and you can
>freely share what you see
>while up there as you
>see fit.
>
>Or maybe you charge different tiers
>for the type of water
>you find? And if there
>happens to be wildlife in
>the area that you think
>you should warn your client
>about just so he takes
>precautions so he doesn't get
>attacked by a territorial deer
>in the area that is
>extremely thoughtful of you.
>
>Wouldn't it have been nice if
>the runner that was attacked
>by the mountain lion had
>been warned about lions when
>he bought a book about
>the trails on horse head?
>Just seems like common courtesy
>and it helps protect you
>from getting sued.
>
>You could sell camp locations and
>again if there happens to
>be wildlife in the area
>its really thoughtful of you
>to warn your customers about
>them.
>
>Seems like its going to be
>extremely hard to enforce unless
>they make it illegal to
>share the location of any
>wildlife. Or unless they make
>it illegal for an employee
>or contractor to share the
>location with whoever is paying
>them. But than you tell
>your employers brother and its
>legal.
>
>Anyway have fun selling packages this
>year Founder. I hope you
>put a client on every
>single buck that outfitters are
>surrounding... I mean hunting.


[font face="verdana" color="green"]
Jake Swensen
 
As long as you pay the state your $145 guide fee, all is good to sell information on where a deer lives???
But if you don't, then it's unethical and must be stopped!!
Give me break! I'll pay the state $280, then I'll be twice as ethical as the thousands of guides paying their $145, and 4 times more ethical than the ones paying the $70 temporary guide fee. ha ha

I have no problem paying a fee to share my knowledge, if such a thing existed.

You won't have me feeling bad about sharing my knowledge which is the same knowledge shared by dozens of guides every fall. Those bucks have a far greater chance of survival being pursued by the guys I help for 5-6 days versus the 3 weeks of multiple guides with their clients after them every day.
No feeling bad here.

I will abide by the law though. I'll stop selling what they want me to stop selling, and I'm fine with that.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
@mm_founder on Instagram
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-20-19 AT 06:16AM (MST)[p]>Those bucks have a
>far greater chance of survival
>being pursued by the guys
>I help for 5-6 days
>versus the 3 weeks of
>multiple guides with their clients
>after them every day.

How would a person ever know that to be true? You wont ever answer the questions that would allow us to know the impact of your service.

What percentage of your clients kill the target buck you set them up on? What percentage kill a different buck? What percentage go home empty handed?

At least most outfitters post up their past clients success rates.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Feb-20-19
>AT 06:16?AM (MST)
>
>>Those bucks have a
>>far greater chance of survival
>>being pursued by the guys
>>I help for 5-6 days
>>versus the 3 weeks of
>>multiple guides with their clients
>>after them every day.
>
>How would a person ever know
>that to be true?
>You wont ever answer the
>questions that would allow us
>to know the impact of
>your service.
>
>What percentage of your clients kill
>the target buck you set
>them up on? What
>percentage kill a different buck?
>What percentage go home empty
>handed?
>
>At least most outfitters post up
>their past clients success rates.
>

You got me there. I have no hard data to support my opinion, just common sense.
One Guy for 5-6 days VS Numerous Hunters and Guides for 22 days. ???
I'd bet them guides hunting a buck for 22 days have a much greater likelihood of success than a guy, who's likely never even hunted that high country before, equipped with my information who's hunting for 5-6 days tops.
Just my opinion though.

Based on my success rate and those I've helped, I believe the odds of harvesting a particular big buck is about 1 in 5 on a 5-7 day hunt.

I believe also that the overall success rate of the guys I help versus that of guided hunters is lower, for a few reasons.

I have nothing against guides. They?re definitely great for those who want a guide to help them out. It's just my opinion that hunters with guides helping them probably have a greater likelihood of success than a guy doing it on his own. Plus the guides are usually guiding new hunters every week, and are going back looking for those top end bucks all season long.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
@mm_founder on Instagram
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
>
>https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6kSHOoFVc1LN0xMR1FmalhhUnc/view?usp=drivesdk
>
>Seems its a little more costly
>to "share" for guides.
>
>They also have insurances, bonds, camps,
>etc.
>
>From a business standpoint its easy
>to see how they are
>irritated that they are paying
>big money to do what
>you do free of charge?
>
>
>But I'm fine with not allowing
>guiding on public land.
>
>From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN,
>PUBLIC LAND.


Educate yourself on "why" insurance, bonds, F.S. permits, etc. are required by the F.S.
And read above, I'd be happy to pay double the fee the state charges guides. Heck, I'd be fine paying what the outfitters pay the state, I'd just have to help more people.
My complaint has never been about paying a fee if one was required to sell a report filled with information.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
@mm_founder on Instagram
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
>I believe also that the overall
>success rate of the guys
>I help versus that of
>guided hunters is lower, for
>a few reasons.
>
>I have nothing against guides. They?re
>definitely great for those who
>want a guide to help
>them out. It's just my
>opinion that hunters with guides
>helping them probably have a
>greater likelihood of success than
>a guy doing it on
>his own. Plus the guides
>are usually guiding new hunters
>every week, and are going
>back looking for those top
>end bucks all season long.

Seems odd to me that you have no communication with your clients after the hunt. I thought you all became friends afterwards? Remember, what you do is just like telling a buddy at the coffee shop where you saw a big buck.

This data is from the MD Crisis rant by Robb Wiley so I am not positive of its accuracy. He claims that in 2016 in all of Region G there were 89 outfitted MD hunters. They took a total of 43 bucks, 48% total success rate.

In all of Region G in 2016 NR MD hunters had an overall success rate of 53%. Outfitted hunters are less than that at 48%. You think your clients are lower than even that?
 
>
>>I believe also that the overall
>>success rate of the guys
>>I help versus that of
>>guided hunters is lower, for
>>a few reasons.
>>
>>I have nothing against guides. They?re
>>definitely great for those who
>>want a guide to help
>>them out. It's just my
>>opinion that hunters with guides
>>helping them probably have a
>>greater likelihood of success than
>>a guy doing it on
>>his own. Plus the guides
>>are usually guiding new hunters
>>every week, and are going
>>back looking for those top
>>end bucks all season long.
>
>Seems odd to me that you
>have no communication with your
>clients after the hunt.
>I thought you all became
>friends afterwards? Remember, what
>you do is just like
>telling a buddy at the
>coffee shop where you saw
>a big buck.
>
>This data is from the MD
>Crisis rant by Robb Wiley
>so I am not positive
>of its accuracy. He
>claims that in 2016 in
>all of Region G there
>were 89 outfitted MD hunters.
> They took a total
>of 43 bucks, 48% total
>success rate.
>
>In all of Region G in
>2016 NR MD hunters had
>an overall success rate of
>53%. Outfitted hunters are
>less than that at 48%.
> You think your clients
>are lower than even that?
>

After adding it up, their success rate was about 50%. Success on the particular bucks I pointed them towards is about 20%, 1 in 5. That number would probably be higher for guys who can invest more time hunting a buck. There is no doubt my information is valuable, otherwise nobody would care. But overall success looks to be about the same as everyone else who hunts the area.
The impact of me selling information reports is negligible on overall buck numbers. And I also have the opinion that the effect on herd quality is also negligible, because not all big bucks are old and not all old bucks have big antlers. And, most of those bucks are harvested each year anyway by someone.
So there you go with more of my thoughts. Pick away.

Looks like the bill will pass, so I won't be sharing any wildlife geographic locations. But that's what they've wanted to outlaw, is selling GPS coordinates. I'll abide by the law.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
@mm_founder on Instagram
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 

Similar threads

runamuk
Idaho wildlife federation
Replies
10
Views
844
devobrodie
devobrodie
J
Colorado CPW Commissioner Debate!
Replies
36
Views
2k
jims
J
elkassassin
ANYBODY EVER DEAL WITH ANY PORCH PIRATES???
Replies
32
Views
1k
cbat
cbat

Member Gallery Photos and Videos!

114859F5-4CA4-4F3E-8EAE-C581C92F58E6.jpeg
249C187F-3902-43F5-9FA6-7EA11D15E76A.jpeg
50DC6E68-4416-4AB0-8800-DCC91D101699.png
IMG_6652.jpeg
IMG_2732.jpeg
IMG_1894.jpeg
Screenshot_20230903-225245_Gallery.jpg
Elk.jpg
HENRYS 1.jpg
F55C09AF-51E2-4A1C-AEFE-3D975BC7A5C3.jpeg
Elk1.jpg
Screenshot_20240117_040735_Instagram.jpg

Wyoming Hunting Guides & Outfitters

Badger Creek Outfitters

Offering elk, deer and pronghorn hunts on several privately owned ranches.

Urge 2 Hunt

We focus on trophy elk, mule deer, antelope and moose hunts and take B&C bucks most years.

J & J Outfitters

Offering quality fair-chase hunts for trophy mule deer, elk, and moose in Wyoming.


Yellowstone Horse Rentals - Western Wyoming Horses
Back
Top Bottom