elkassassin
Long Time Member
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That’s true. We don’t want to hear it though. I bet just about everyone here over 40 remembers what deer were like as a kid with predators and fire and permits and everything else that impacts them and what it looks like in those areas now. It’s easy for us to pin it on predators, permits and just about everything else except the things that we do to contribute to the loss of habitat to homes, roads or wind and solar. I go on the satellite view of a lot of places to see how screwed up it is and if you are able go back to different years and compare the location from past to present, it’s pretty convincing we are the problem.Biggest damn problem the mule deer has in my eyes is ……….people ! In general !
That’s true. We don’t want to hear it though. I bet just about everyone here over 40 remembers what deer were like as a kid with predators and fire and permits and everything else that impacts them and what it looks like in those areas now. It’s easy for us to pin it on predators, permits and just about everything else except the things that we do to contribute to the loss of habitat to homes, roads or wind and solar. I go on the satellite view of a lot of places to see how screwed up it is and if you are able go back to different years and compare the location from past to present, it’s pretty convincing we are the problem.
We’re not interested in fixing it if it involves us changing our attitude or behavior. It sounds better to blame predators and fires. Passing blame has been our thing for a few decades now. It’s not fashionable to think we have anything to do with something going wrong.Yes!
We Are The Problem!
We Were Dumb Enough To F'It Up!
But Are We Smart Enough To Fix It?
Na!
We Ain't That Smart!
It would certainly help if permit numbers were cut way back or off for a long period of time.
The Beaver unit is a perfect example. The feed in that area is fine. The deer herd has declined greatly both bucks and does. So when it gets to the point it is now where there is just no deer what does the mule deer plan say we should do?
Complete extinction- I dont see that happening. But extinction of trophy caliber bucks ? Yeah for sure that’s already happening all over. Here in Colorado when they went to a total draw I believe in 1999 after a few years later we had a great run for a long time, but with alot of factors it’s been in a down ward spiral . Sucks for the public land hunter. I can see big private ranches being able to manage better ( if it’s managed right) but already big big money for a quality buck and that’s only going to get worse as the monster Muley so to speak becomes more like the dinosaur. It Sucks-it’s my favorite animal to hunt.They Say:
Let's Keep Over Hunting Them!
They MIGHT Have CWD!
Bucks Don't Have Fawns!
So Let's Keep Shooting Does!
Let's Keep Turning Deer We Don't Have In To $$$.
Where are they shooting does?They Say:
Let's Keep Over Hunting Them!
They MIGHT Have CWD!
Bucks Don't Have Fawns!
So Let's Keep Shooting Does!
Let's Keep Turning Deer We Don't Have In To $$$!
Where are they shooting does?
If you say it enough I guess people will believe you.
How many endangered or going extinct animals could you say that about….One More thing notdon!
You Could Get Yourself A Damned Two Doe Permit!
How many endangered or going extinct animals could you say that about….
Again. It’s hilarious when people don’t know what words mean. Look up endangered species much less brink of extinction species.That Would Happen To Be The Species We Are Talking About Pickett!
Again. It’s hilarious when people don’t know what words mean. Look up endangered species much less brink of extinction species.
Let’s all push the narrative though. You want mule deer hunting to come to an end, get them listed in the endangered species act. That’ll do it
As a personal exemption even though it is my thread, I didn't title it.Again. It’s hilarious when people don’t know what words mean. Look up endangered species much less brink of extinction species.
Let’s all push the narrative though. You want mule deer hunting to come to an end, get them listed in the endangered species act. That’ll do it
You literally stated in the post I quoted “ the species were talking about” in regards to being an endangered speciesYou Might Wanna Do Some Research Of What I've Been Screaming For Years!
JFYI!
It Isn't Me Wanting Them To Become Endangered Or Extinct!
You literally stated in the post I quoted “ the species were talking about” in regards to being an endangered species
That might be the most un informed thing I’ve ever read.
In no way shape or form could mule deer on the North American continent be considered endangered or in danger of extinction
You don’t call it extinct thats for sure. Unless of course you’re looking for clicks, web traffic or getting utards all in a panic. Then I guess you call it thatI don’t know what you call it when hunters go out in the hills and come back not seeing deer? I don’t know what you call it when landowners once had 100’s of deer in there fields (myself being one of these) and now lucky to see one or two. I don’t know what you call it when winter grounds along parowan and cedar city, Panguitch, Circleville were once full of deer and now it is alarming to see the decline. I don’t know what you call local butchers say they hardly get a deer brought in anymore?
This may not be the definition of extinct or endangered but it for sure is a cause of great concern. I know a deer when I see one and I can tell you extinct or not, I am not seeing deer.
You literally stated in the post I quoted “ the species were talking about” in regards to being an endangered species
That might be the most un informed thing I’ve ever read.
In no way shape or form could mule deer on the North American continent be considered endangered or in danger of extinction
Nice try, but re read the article title. Not “could” but “are” it’s a nuance that may be over your head, but it kinda mattersThe conversation is could mule deer go extinct
Never said that. Said if they were endangered there would be zero tags. You know like how you can’t buy a grizzly tag.I Didn't Say They Were Endangered Yet!
In Your Eyes Just Because The UDWR Sells 2 Doe Permits You Think We've Got An Over Abundance Of Deer!
You Are Wrong!
Never said that. Said if they were endangered there would be zero tags. You know like how you can’t buy a grizzly tag.
That I completely agree with and have the same opinion to my state. But that opinion is not in anyway formed out of worry for an extinction eventThere Shouldn't Be One F'N Doe Tag In This State Already!
That I completely agree with and have the same opinion to my state. But that opinion is not in anyway formed out of worry for an extinction event
Nice try, but re read the article title. Not “could” but “are” it’s a nuance that may be over your head, but it kinda matters
Try againThe question mark turns "are" into a "could". it's a question not a statement.
You can work on your punctuation comprehension after you master simple basic math. you skipped that question.
No seriously. Tell me again how this “ legitimate subject” about being “ well on the way” is then realize how stupid you sound and tell me it’s a “could happen” because anything “could happen”is a legitimate subject, especially if you're a hunter. and extinction normally doesn't happen overnight, but we're well on the way
I honestly thought there was only some doe hunts that were allowed because of ag land problems and city problems.WOW!
notdon You're More Secluded Than I Thought You Were!
HINT:
They Are Hunting Does Right Now Around Here In One Of The Poorest Units Around!
Utah Hunt Planner -- Utah Division of Wildlife Resources
The Utah Division of Wildlife Resources' Utah Hunt Planner is an interactive map designed to help hunters research hunting units. The Utah Hunt Planner also provides the legal hunting boundaries approved by the Utah Wildlife Board. Research hunts and units before you apply in the big game...dwrapps.utah.gov
That still doesn't equate for the non hunted doe areas around the state where overall deer numbers are still declining, doe hunts are isolated.I honestly thought there was only some doe hunts that were allowed because of ag land problems and city problems.
My apologies bessy
Predators are the overall biggest reason why deer numbers are held down and not able to recover in many areas.That’s true. We don’t want to hear it though. I bet just about everyone here over 40 remembers what deer were like as a kid with predators and fire and permits and everything else that impacts them and what it looks like in those areas now. It’s easy for us to pin it on predators, permits and just about everything else except the things that we do to contribute to the loss of habitat to homes, roads or wind and solar. I go on the satellite view of a lot of places to see how screwed up it is and if you are able go back to different years and compare the location from past to present, it’s pretty convincing we are the problem.
Yeah two legged predators. And winters. And habitat loss. But yeah blame predatorsPredators are the overall biggest reason why deer numbers are held down and not able to recover in many areas.
Don't give any mind to you know who, he just has a tree hugger/liberal mentality. Watch him try to say something to me and I'll just ignore him as always. Really pisses him off.Predators are the overall biggest reason why deer numbers are held down and not able to recover in many areas.
Scary you’re a principal at a school. And you’re even a bigger fool if you think I care about anything you say or do.Don't give any mind to you know who, he just has a tree hugger/liberal mentality. Watch him try to say something to me and I'll just ignore him as always. Really pisses him off.
Yeah two legged predators. And winters. And habitat loss. But yeah blame predators
All of them. Limit utards to two kids. Protect winter range. All of it is possible. But yeah that’s difficult and the most work so let’s just blame predators!How many of those factors you list can we realistically impact through policy?
People are saying predators are a factor because they are, not because it's "easy". We now have studies that prove it. Those other factors also kill plenty of deer. If we wiped out 80 percent of ALL predators across the west. I'm betting we would see a big rebound in herd numbers in just about every unit within 3 -5 years.All of them. Limit utards to two kids. Protect winter range. All of it is possible. But yeah that’s difficult and the most work so let’s just blame predators!
He's not capable of understanding that, Ridge.People are saying predators are a factor because they are, not because it's "easy". We now have studies that prove it. Those other factors also kill plenty of deer. If we wiped out 80 percent of ALL predators across the west. I'm betting we would see a big rebound in herd numbers in just about every unit within 3 -5 years.
Wolves don’t even make the top 10 on the highlight reel of what’s impacting mule deer populations. Hint, if you look in the mirror you’ll see atleast 8 of the top 10I think with the introduction of wolves in some intermountain states as well as packs coming into areas where they never really were before, we are going to see losses. Case in point, last winter was a MF'r in my neck of the woods. We lost a lot of deer just to the snow. Now put wolves in the mix and even the healthiest of deer in any given winter are going to be affected.
All of them. Limit utards to two kids. Protect winter range. All of it is possible. But yeah that’s difficult and the most work so let’s just blame predators!
Killing off your prime breeding age class deer??So could anyone think of a theory that is really just common sense knowledge about mule deer that could be wrong and hurting mule deer?
Come on fellas. It gets mentioned on almost every mule deer thread and has been mentioned here.
Do you watch intently on TV as well?In 2016 utah had the best deer herd in history according to DWR.
Hey, somebody give Rie Bread some butta!Killing off your prime breeding age class deer??
Of course predators are a factor but to say they are the main reason is total BS. Do you group hunters in with the predators? 80%? Ok pull numbers out of your ass.People are saying predators are a factor because they are, not because it's "easy". We now have studies that prove it. Those other factors also kill plenty of deer. If we wiped out 80 percent of ALL predators across the west. I'm betting we would see a big rebound in herd numbers in just about every unit within 3 -5 years.
Where did I say it was an Utah issue MR MULE DEER? Can’t wait for you to show me…He's not capable of understanding that, Ridge.
He can't even comprehend this isn't an Utah issue.
Ranchers don’t use 1-2year old steers to breed their herd….Hey, somebody give Rie Bread some butta!
Maybe a handful of 1 and 2 year old bucks can't breed all those doe.
Steers don't breed anything.Ranchers don’t use 1-2year old steers to breed their herd….
You can have some butter tooSteers don't breed anything.
No but sherl man use 1-2 year old ramsRanchers don’t use 1-2year old steers to breed their herd….
And they'll stay as two points their whole lives.....Hey, somebody give Rie Bread some butta!
Maybe a handful of 1 and 2 year old bucks can't breed all those doe.
Not at all. There is a huge difference between frequent wildfires that are allowed to burn and the massive fire suppression we currently do. Sorry but he has a point. Even the natives knew the importance of fire and they would often light entire areas on fire in the fall as they left for winter grounds etc.The west has been burning up the last couple decades, if you lived here you'd know that. and the deer numbers continue to fall.
I
Not if they go to DP nutrition!And they'll stay as two points their whole lives.....
Esxactly. Imagine what it would or could be like if that area did not burn? There is a reason why the animals find the burns and the "newer" habitat. Research out of Colorado Oil and Gas fields showed that mechanical habitat treatments were a huge benefit to the deer. The deer in areas that burned or were mechanically harvested had higher body scores in late winter, were more likely to have viable twins in the spring, they also tended to have fawns later in life, etc.Over 2/3 of the Custer forest in SE Montana has burned since 2000, some of it multiple times. No amount of benefit from the fires can over come five weeks of OTC rut hunting and enough doe tags to fill the back of your truck.
Careful, Buzz will be here to tell you you are wrong but won't actually tell anyone why. He just likes talking about people.Not at all. There is a huge difference between frequent wildfires that are allowed to burn and the massive fire suppression we currently do. Sorry but he has a point. Even the natives knew the importance of fire and they would often light entire areas on fire in the fall as they left for winter grounds etc.
The fires we have today are nothing like the important fire we had historically.
It's not safe to say.So speaking of fires and their importance.
I think it's safe to say there are more fires today than ever before simply because human negligence.
Yet here we are, more burn scars and still declining deer numbers.
Perhaps the human caused fire locations are irrelevant to being beneficial?
I really can't tell what you mean.And they'll stay as two points their whole lives.....
To a certain point yes. On the flip side think of the hundreds possibly thousands of wild fires put out every single year before they even get started... When I worked for the Forest Service there were days where our single Ranger District would extinguish 50-60 fires in a 24 hour period. Would all of them been a full fledge fire? Likely not but on the flipside you get one storm come through and create several lightning strikes it would create way more fires. Sure you hear about man caused fires because they are big news and big money, but what you don't hear about at all are all the small ones extinguished because they are close to oil and gas, or near a power line or... There is no way to say for certain there are more, but I am certain that there a ton of wildfires extinguished every year before they ever get started.So speaking of fires and their importance.
I think it's safe to say there are more fires today than ever before simply because human negligence.
Yet here we are, more burn scars and still declining deer numbers.
Perhaps the human caused fire locations are irrelevant to being beneficial?
This is not a thread on utah.This should be fairly easy to verify, in as much as somewhere in the Utah DWR records is the study they did on coyote control on the Monroe Unit about 8 years ago. It was published and available on line for a while after the study was complete. I believe the study was done by the Biological scientists at Utah State and Brigham Young Universities.
As I recall, without perfect memory, the Unit was divided into north and south halves, 3 or 4 years of treatment on the north so they could compare the effective of the treatment to the untreated south half.
As I recall, the Unit was estimated at about 5,500 mule deer at the start of the study. The first year over 100 coyotes were removed from the northern half, by helicopter hunting/killing. Fewer were removed in the following years. As I recall by the 4th year the mule deer population on the Unit had increased to an estimated 7,500 mule deer.
Since the study ended and the helicopter hunting/killing stopped, the population drop back to the mid 5,000 again.
If interested you may wish to search out that study and draw your own conclusions on the predator impact on mule deer in Utah.
Here’s one of the Scientists report. It nothing else, scroll to the bottom and find his final paragraph or conclusion.
Is this Utah? Well then Slamdunk says that’s not relevant.Reduction of lions in our area has made a big difference to our mule deer population. When the DWR issued harvest objective permits for 86 lions to be taken on the east side of our valley 3 years ago, we saw more than double the number of deer the next winter. So far, it's been holding steady with a slight increase every year since. Now that there isn't an actual lion hunt, trappers will need to step it up if they want to continue to see deer numbers rise.
Actually rancher do use a lot of 1 and 2 year old bulls to do the breeding, along with older bulls.Ranchers don’t use 1-2year old steers to breed their herd….
Edit- bulls not steers, was being to generalized.
Yeah they do but the ability to breed X number of cows is higher with older bulls. So if you have your optimum buck to doe ratio filled with spikes and forks there can’t be nearly the insemination as with older age classesActually rancher do use a lot of 1 and 2 year old bulls to do the breeding, along with older bulls.
The difference with the bulls the ranches use is that the bulls have had to survive several selection cuts for desirable genetics before they ever make the bull sale and see a cow. We do the opposite with mule deer. With deer the bucks with the best genetics are targeted at a young age and to ones with poor genes survive to breed more does.
It's a facetious comment, one that an amazing amount of people think is the true case.I really can't tell what you mean.
The hunting and the deer herd was exponentially better before the big fires started in 2000. Is the habitat better in the fires, yes, is there more feed for deer in the burns, yes. The deer herd took it in the shorts because the fires removed nearly all the security cover. Now those same deer are much more easy to kill and when you hunt them for OTC for five weeks during the rut and hand out enough doe tags to fill the back of your truck any benefit the fires provided in the from of more food was over come by the lack of a place to hide.Esxactly. Imagine what it would or could be like if that area did not burn? There is a reason why the animals find the burns and the "newer" habitat. Research out of Colorado Oil and Gas fields showed that mechanical habitat treatments were a huge benefit to the deer. The deer in areas that burned or were mechanically harvested had higher body scores in late winter, were more likely to have viable twins in the spring, they also tended to have fawns later in life, etc.
Forest rejuvenation and habitat treatments have a very real impact on food forage and predators.
I turn out about 1 bull to 25 cows, depending in the pasture. With heifers we only use young bulls as older bulls are just too big. They get the job done. I am sure younger buck can get the job done too. The issue is it is a crap shoot with what you get with young deer. Might be a healthy buck that will if given time turn into a 200 inch survivor, or it might be a buck that will never grow much for antlers and have difficulty with adversity. Ideally we would want older bucks that have proven there worth by surviving a few bad winters, droughts and predators for at least five years doing the bulk of the breeding.Yeah they do but the ability to breed X number of cows is higher with older bulls. So if you have your optimum buck to doe ratio filled with spikes and forks there can’t be nearly the insemination as with older age classes
that’s a big word for you.It's a facetious comment, one that an amazing amount of people think is the true case.
Yeah I’m just making assumptions between cows and deer based off of what my family did ranching and age of their bulls. So I’m sure a young buck(pun intended) can do the job just but might take more time?I turn out about 1 bull to 25 cows, depending in the pasture. With heifers we only use young bulls as older bulls are just too big. They get the job done. I am sure younger buck can get the job done too. The issue is it is a crap shoot with what you get with young deer. Might be a healthy buck that will if given time turn into a 200 inch survivor, or it might be a buck that will never grow much for antlers and have difficulty with adversity. Ideally we would want older bucks that have proven there worth by surviving a few bad winters, droughts and predators for at least five years doing the bulk of the breeding.
Exaggerations and liesThe hunting and the deer herd was exponentially better before the big fires started in 2000. Is the habitat better in the fires, yes, is there more feed for deer in the burns, yes. The deer herd took it in the shorts because the fires removed nearly all the security cover. Now those same deer are much more easy to kill and when you hunt them for OTC for five weeks during the rut and hand out enough doe tags to fill the back of your truck any benefit the fires provided in the from of more food was over come by the lack of a place to hide
Piss off. When antlerradar takes the time to write something you would be wise to listen. Feel free to tell us where he’s exaggerating and I bet he will back it up.Exaggerations and lies
It’s too expensive. Well, let me restate that.If the killing of more predators showed signs of working, why is that not a priority in helping the deer herd increase?
But.....just because a 200" bucks breeds a doe, that doesn't ensure his fawn buck will be a 200" in his prime.I turn out about 1 bull to 25 cows, depending in the pasture. With heifers we only use young bulls as older bulls are just too big. They get the job done. I am sure younger buck can get the job done too. The issue is it is a crap shoot with what you get with young deer. Might be a healthy buck that will if given time turn into a 200 inch survivor, or it might be a buck that will never grow much for antlers and have difficulty with adversity. Ideally we would want older bucks that have proven there worth by surviving a few bad winters, droughts and predators for at least five years doing the bulk of the breeding.
That is true, but if I were to select for the best quality cows and treat my bull herd like we select for bucks. (send the best bulls to market at age two and keep the poor ones to do the bulk of the breeding) It would not be long and I would have very few quality cows to choose from.But.....just because a 200" bucks breeds a doe, that doesn't ensure his fawn buck will be a 200" in his prime.
Those genetics all vary due to what the doe has to offer.
Just like humans.
I am 6' tall, my only son is 5'6" at 33 years old.
His mother is 5'4".
I honestly thought there was only some doe hunts that were allowed because of ag land problems and city problems.
My apologies bessy
That is true, but if I were to select for the best quality cows and treat my bull herd like we select for bucks. (send the best bulls to market at age two and keep the poor ones to do the bulk of the breeding) It would not be long and I would have very few quality cows to choose from.
I need to apologize to antlerradar for claiming he lied, I have no ideas if he did.
But exaggerations yes I believe he did exaggerate when he made the statement "the deer herd was exponentially better before the big fires of 2000" "deer have no place to hide"
The Oak Creeks is probably one of the best examples you can have of how fire has helped a unit.
For 40 plus years the Oak Creek has been a draw and until the big fires of I believe 2010 the Oak Creek unit was nothing to brag upon and now it might be the best unit in the state, you can go back and find a post I did earlier about my experience with the Oak Creek.