You're wrong Bess. Some won't give any.Remember Wiffy!
ALL Are Gonna Give Some!
Some Are Not Gonna GIVE ALL!
You're wrong Bess. Some won't give any.
These changes won't help? Interesting. Care to expound?These won’t help Elk is right 50+ other things also
Drought I have been saying that for years.So when all this chit doesn’t work and numbers are in the hole still, then what? Option 2 was going to be our saving grace. We were promised by $FW and the powers that be, our herds would rebound with that management plan if we all were willing to sacrifice a little, and we did. We gave up a lot actually. And we are sitting with less tags now than we did when we started that practice. Cut us back to rocks and spears as far as technology goes, and when that doesn’t help, what’s the plan then? Stop hunting all together? Sounds like that’s the end goal for some of you. I really want to hear what’s next on your list of ‘fixes’ when all this crying doesn’t fix the issues we have at all. A LOT of Habitat projects have been completed and hasn’t fixed the problem. Carefully selected guzzler build locations Now have water and hasnt fixed the problem. Highway fencing hasn’t fixed the problem. Collaring and studies hasnt fixed the problem. Predator management hasn’t fixed the problem. Tag cuts hasnt fixed the problem. New management models hasnt fixed the problem. Deer relocation/transplants hasnt fixed the problem. The list goes on forever. Nothing has worked. But banning scopes, bait, trail cams and range finders are going to be what starts trending populations upwards? Yeah right. The end game with recent suggestions and bans is selfishly attempting to put bigger deer on the mountain for you to kill. That’s it. It doesn’t create more deer. It’s an attempt to create bigger deer. Which is a bandaid on an axe wound. It does nothing. Limiting opportunity isn’t creating any more opportunity.
There are 50 other things winter range, highway mortality, climate or drought just to pick on 1 or 2 things doesn’t make sense. I just bought a rangefinder last year and I used it and killed an elk where I have killed my last 25 or so this time I just knew exactly how far it was. Most knuckleheads couldn’t kill with a muzzle regardless of sight and if we hit muzzle we better cut up bow tech as well. Same guys will kill regardless of the rules. I just think if we narrowed the scope these are not the top 3 in the ParetoThese changes won't help? Interesting. Care to expound?
But you were in favor of the other tech ban and bait ban. Why are you singing a different tune now?Why stop there. go back to flintlocks, recurves, and 30-30's. That's where a few buck might survive another year. Can you let me know what were changing to every year so I can be ahead of the curve and sale all my useless equipment though? Or maybe you could just hunt harder?
My thoughts exactly!!!So when all this chit doesn’t work and numbers are in the hole still, then what? Option 2 was going to be our saving grace. We were promised by $FW and the powers that be, our herds would rebound with that management plan if we all were willing to sacrifice a little, and we did. We gave up a lot actually. And we are sitting with less tags now than we did when we started that practice. Cut us back to rocks and spears as far as technology goes, and when that doesn’t help, what’s the plan then? Stop hunting all together? Sounds like that’s the end goal for some of you. I really want to hear what’s next on your list of ‘fixes’ when all this crying doesn’t fix the issues we have at all. A LOT of Habitat projects have been completed and hasn’t fixed the problem. Carefully selected guzzler build locations Now have water and hasnt fixed the problem. Highway fencing hasn’t fixed the problem. Collaring and studies hasnt fixed the problem. Predator management hasn’t fixed the problem. Tag cuts hasnt fixed the problem. New management models hasnt fixed the problem. Deer relocation/transplants hasnt fixed the problem. The list goes on forever. Nothing has worked. But banning scopes, bait, trail cams and range finders are going to be what starts trending populations upwards? Yeah right. The end game with recent suggestions and bans is selfishly attempting to put bigger deer on the mountain for you to kill. That’s it. It doesn’t create more deer. It’s an attempt to create bigger deer. Which is a bandaid on an axe wound. It does nothing. Limiting opportunity isn’t creating any more opportunity.
I for one was not in favor of the previous bans and understand it will not help. There were several on here preaching that the restrictions are not meant to help herds. My question to them is, what the hell is the point of making changes and adding more restrictions if not for the sake of the herds?I'm surprised a lot of you guys that were in favor of the previous bans aren't in favor of this ban? You say this ban won't help?
Let me guess, you’re probably not a muzzleloader hunter so you could care less?I support no scopes on muzzys because they are supposed to be a primitive weapon, I do not support banning rangefinders because the only thing that would do is increase wounded animals.
Yeah right! I’m calling BS on that one.Some would say your proposal goes too far! I say, your proposal doesn't go too far enough! Rifled barrels need to be outlawed, and no rifled slugs either. Smooth bore muskets, with real black powder only! This will bring back the glory days of hunting before you know it!!!
Geez it seems like the majority of you so called hunters are members of PETA. Wake up, these changes will have 0 effect on herd numbers. Fix the drought and range on the landscape and then we’ll talk.HAMS hunts already exist. Make all units HAMS only with current general season dates.
Because as humans we are typically idiots, some take it further than others. We have to keep ourselves in check every now and thenI for one was not in favor of the previous bans and understand it will not help. There were several on here preaching that the restrictions are not meant to help herds. My question to them is, what the hell is the point of making changes and adding more restrictions if not for the sake of the herds?
Isn’t a bow supposed to be a primitive weapon too?I support no scopes on muzzys because they are supposed to be a primitive weapon, I do not support banning rangefinders because the only thing that would do is increase wounded animals.
Show me one place where the state of utah has defined a muzzleloader as a ‘primitive weapon’.I support no scopes on muzzys because they are supposed to be a primitive weapon, I do not support banning rangefinders because the only thing that would do is increase wounded animals.
How will that bring back DEER numbers? Does make bucks. Bucks don’t make bucks. Saving bucks doesn’t increase deer numbers! Why do people struggle with that conceptSome would say your proposal goes too far! I say, your proposal doesn't go too far enough! Rifled barrels need to be outlawed, and no rifled slugs either. Smooth bore muskets, with real black powder only! This will bring back the glory days of hunting before you know it!!!
Better 50 than 53These won’t help Elk is right 50+ other things also
100% agree with you Zeke. I don't want anymore restrictions or BS bans, but I will say we started on the wrong end of this ban beast. You are an excellent example of someone who can confidently and regularly put a bullet through an animal at 700+ yards. You and many like you are lethal with your custom built rifles and muzzys. Is that hunting or marksmanship? I say it's both, but probably more keen on the marksmanship side. A fat guy in a wheelchair can get 700 yards from any animal. The hypocrisy comes from guys whining about trail cams and baiting and how it isn't hunting, but are happy to snipe an animal from another zip code and call it "fair" chase. It is a slippery slope, but we've all been put on it if we like it or not.Oh, you're a clever one BigWiffy.
It's get-even time for you now since you lost your cams and bait during hunting season.
Remember this, some of us didn't support the earlier bans at all because we knew better than to think it's a cure-all for the struggling deer herds but yet there are those who now want to scorch the earth to make everyone pay.
There's always a way to make hunting work for me and you so whatever it looks like after the unprovoked invasion by the ban-crowd, it'll be just fine.
We're headed down a slippery slope when we blame only technology and fail to look at the real issues that are causing the decline.
Bless your heart,
Zeke
What are we debating?These changes won't help? Interesting. Care to expound?
Woooosh!Yeah right! I’m calling BS on that one.
Wooooooosh!How will that bring back DEER numbers? Does make bucks. Bucks don’t make bucks. Saving bucks doesn’t increase deer numbers! Why do people struggle with that concept
Show me one place where the state of utah has defined a muzzleloader as a ‘primitive weapon’.
You’ll search for days because they never have. A muzzleloader is a muzzleloader in utah. That’s the seasonal weapon, a muzzleloader and that has been defined by the state of utah. Want a primitive weapon hunt? Then push for one or go
Hunt Idaho. But here, we do not have a defined primitive weapon hunt
I don’t need to show you, JakeH already did. What’s the point of muzzy and archery hunts if they are not supposed to be more primitive than a rifle?Show me one place where the state of utah has defined a muzzleloader as a ‘primitive weapon’.
You’ll search for days because they never have. A muzzleloader is a muzzleloader in utah. That’s the seasonal weapon, a muzzleloader and that has been defined by the state of utah. Want a primitive weapon hunt? Then push for one or go
Hunt Idaho. But here, we do not have a defined primitive weapon hunt
Yes and it is. I’m not saying it’s as primitive as it could be or as they used to be the but it’s BY FAR more primitive than a rifle and even a muzzy.Isn’t a bow supposed to be a primitive weapon too?
??3 pin fixed sight on bow's
4x scope on muzzleloaders
No change on rifle but cut tags for this season in half and evenly distribute to other seasons. ( no tag cut )
Keep rangefinders
Change the late season LE elk hunts from any weapon to HAMS. leave the early muzzleloader elk season to 4x scopes.
Absolutely change rifles, why is it that you feel there should be changes to archery and muzzleloader but not to rifles? Hypocrisy?3 pin fixed sight on bow's
4x scope on muzzleloaders
No change on rifle but cut tags for this season in half and evenly distribute to other seasons. ( no tag cut )
Keep rangefinders
Change the late season LE elk hunts from any weapon to HAMS. leave the early muzzleloader elk season to 4x scopes.
It's easier to change archery and Muzzy's as people are willing to make some sacrifices there. Rifles are a different animal. They are made to kill things easily. Even limiting them to 6X scopes would not do anything substantial in their killing efficiency.Absolutely change rifles, why is it that you feel there should be changes to archery and muzzleloader but not to rifles? Hypocrisy?
Spending more money on a 6x scope? Why would it cause you to spend more on a non resident hunt?I voted No because why do I want to have to go $pend more wasted $$ on New rules and for those of us that hunt a lot of Non-Ressy tags/states would have to $pend more for those hunts?
Lame Idea for sure
Robb
Probably because he'd have to run out buy another scope...you know swap out scopes on his rifle. This is fun to get everybody's opinion on things and stir debate. But nothing is ever going to change on the regular rifle hunts...ever. Muzzle, archery and HAMS hunts sure. Progress moves forward not backwards...less tags maybe but that's already in the cards anyways as population grows. Next you'll have us using clubs, spears and rocks as atlatls are too advanced to be used...lol!!!Spending more money on a 6x scope? Why would it cause you to spend more on a non resident hunt?
granted this is elk.It's easier to change archery and Muzzy's as people are willing to make some sacrifices there. Rifles are a different animal. They are made to kill things easily. Even limiting them to 6X scopes would not do anything substantial in their killing efficiency.
So everything else will be limited, banned, governed, regulated, taxed, but rifle hunters will be able to continue to do as they please? I don't think you are wrong, but is there something wrong with that?Probably because he'd have to run out buy another scope...you know swap out scopes on his rifle. This is fun to get everybody's opinion on things and stir debate. But nothing is ever going to change on the regular rifle hunts...ever. Muzzle, archery and HAMS hunts sure. Progress moves forward not backwards...less tags maybe but that's already in the cards anyways as population grows. Next you'll have us using clubs, spears and rocks as atlatls are too advanced to be used...lol!!!
After looking at that as far as elk goes. YES there is something wrong. Elk hunt during the Rut with our most effective weapon.So everything else will be limited, banned, governed, regulated, taxed, but rifle hunters will be able to continue to do as they please? I don't think you are wrong, but is there something wrong with that?
If you give out 53,000 archery elk tags in Utah you would have <10% success.granted this is elk.
I don't think they need to sacrifice anything stats don't lie.
So 2020 annual report shows.
The average days of archers hunted was around 14 days this is all Le units combined
They offer 775 LE archery tags state wide
They harvested 203 bulls
That is 26% success rate
This is actual data
There was one unit that stuck out
The book cliffs archery
for 2020 they issued 32 tags and only 3 harvested
Now the Muzzleloader hunters
They offer 500 LE elk
They harvested 358
That's 71% success
This is actual data
Now the LE rifle Elk this is Early/mid/late combined.
So the average Rifle hunters hunted around 5 days
They offer 1,576 tags for rifle.
They harvested 1,229 bulls
That's 77% success rate
This is actual data
I found this one on Colorado's.
Remember they get to hunt threw the whole month of September with 9 days of Muzzleloader overlapping them.
2020 archery .
Colorado total tags 53,426
total harvest 5,366
That's 10% harvest success.
After looking at that as far as elk goes. YES there is something wrong. Elk hunt during the Rut with our most effective weapon.
Mind you I love archery/rifle/muzzle-loader hunting.
But from what i see over the actual data I put out. We could easily double archery tags and still stay below 30% harvest rate.
With the 5 year waiting period. There will hardly be anyone in the archery pool, I will bet you would have Muzzleloader and rifle hunters switch over to archery, not all of them but i bet you would be surprised on how many would.
We will eventually be limited to less tags and we'll have more pressure for those tags from the long range muzzy guys that don't want to change their setups. You could really get carried away with the HAMS hunts for example or you could have primitive no sights and recurve/longbow seasons along with regular archery seasons but I doubt you'd want extra rifle, muzzle and archery seasons added on. Montana doesn't do anything we do in regards to special muzzy hunts and wyoming only has a few in non-prime areas. Why aren't we hearing about that...gotta have the game...hard to do being the king state of conservation tags handed out on top of the CWMU tags so people don't have to stand in line...oh wait separate subject there that needs fixed too. Lots to fix but no progress ever gets made. I just hunt out of state each year unless I draw one of those wait 20-25 year limited tags.So everything else will be limited, banned, governed, regulated, taxed, but rifle hunters will be able to continue to do as they please? I don't think you are wrong, but is there something wrong with that?
That's not the point here.If you give out 53,000 archery elk tags in Utah you would have <10% success.
When someone draws an early LE elk tag during the rut they can use any weapon they choose. In this instance you are drawing the best possible days to hunt elk, The rut. If you want to hunt bugling bulls on September 20th with a bow or muzzleloader all you need to do is draw an early tag.
That's not the point here.
I never said add 53,000 elk tags in Utah what did I say? ( We could easily double archery tags and still stay below 30% harvest rate.) So that said they could add easily add 775 more tags to it and it would only be 26 to 30% successful. not 70% like rifle and muzzleloader.
I'm showing success rate only 10% harvested out of 53,000 for archery. in Colorado during the rut.
Archery success is way low why in the heck would they give up any technology.
What weapon's is more effective here.
The proof is there black and white clear as day.
As far as the Early season LE rifle elk hunt. why do we need to hunt bugling bulls during the rut with are most effective weapon's.
We moved the muzzleloader deer hunt out of November for a reason.
176 yards? ??Because archers are shooting farther than ever. I know of a guy that shot an elk at 115 yards and shot at a deer at 176.
These are the guys that we need to target with archery technology restrictions.
That would be like me trying to hit a deer in the vitals with a M203 grenade launcher back in the day...lol!!!176 yards? ??
It may be bull, but that's what he told me.176 yards? ??
That was a long Muzzleloader shot 30 years ago.That would be like me trying to hit a deer in the vitals with a M203 grenade launcher back in the day...lol!!!
Haha so he told you he "shot at" a deer at 176 yards and missed it by how far? 100 yards? A guy told me once he killed a caribou in Idaho at 365 yards with his bow he must have been telling the truth. We need to regulate these guys, actually let's ban them! What's his name?It may be bull, but that's what he told me.
That was a long Muzzleloader shot 30 years ago.
I'm certainly not condoning this. I want it stopped. If regulating bow sights will stop this, I'm all for it.
Absolutely.And what about the rifle guys taking 1000 plus yard shots? Do you guys wanna restrict these guys too?
I'm all about that deal. I'll Even give up my rocket propelled arrows in addition. Patented of course.Ok I'll give you the sliders, take them, ban them, throw them in the trash! In return give up your 32x scopes and go to a fixed 6x. You can even keep your rangefinders that are good out to 400 yards. You willing to give up anything???
I'm showing you real data why the Archers wont just hand everything over.Because archers are shooting farther than ever. I know of a guy that shot an elk at 115 yards and shot at a deer at 176.
These are the guys that we need to target with archery technology restrictions.
What has had the biggest technological advances in the last 50 years, bows or rifles?I'm showing you real data why the Archers wont just hand everything over.
The Actual data that i just showed everyone.
shows exactly who needs an over haul and it's not archers.
what's your fixation with 6x scopes? Is it because that's your shirt size?Ok I'll give you the sliders, take them, ban them, throw them in the trash! In return give up your 32x scopes and go to a fixed 6x. You can even keep your rangefinders that are good out to 400 yards. You willing to give up anything???
Actually 8x is my shirt size. 6x for scope because I know anything less you would cry about. You should be banned for being mean.what's your fixation with 6x scopes? Is it because that's your shirt size?
What has?that’s easy optics and Ammo that is the biggest change.What has had the biggest technological advances in the last 50 years, bows or rifles?
I can take a 50 year old rifle and a 6x scope and kill an elk at 600 yards all day. I can't take a 50 year old bow and shoot an elk at 115 yards.
Are there any differences in legal archery equipment between UT and CO?I found this one on Colorado's.
Remember they get to hunt threw the whole month of September with 9 days of Muzzleloader overlapping them.
2020 archery .
Colorado total tags 53,426
total harvest 5,366
That's 10% harvest success.
I really like this idea. you need to run a pole on this idea and see what hunter feed back on this is, on MM and all the Facebook forums.If we are trying to limit harvest, why don’t we set up a system where hunters have to report a harvest at the end of the season. Similar to the DH program, you take your unused tag in after the season. If you harvest an animal you have a waiting period and are not eligible to apply for a specified amount of time. I think you would see more hunters be willing to pass animals.
I think there are more ways to limit harvest than by restricting weapons. Maybe something like this would be more effective than weapon restrictions? At the rate we are going we’ll all be hunting with a slingshot before too long.
Yes it looks like you can't have a electronic range finder on your bow. everything else is the same as Utah.Are there any differences in legal archery equipment between UT and CO?
IMO, the poor success rate reflects more on the pathetic populations that result from ridiculous uncontrolled hunting pressure.
Two things kill animals - nature and man. If you are going to increase natures bag limit, it stands to reason that you need to reduce man’s if you want to sustain populations.
Argue all you want about how. I find these threads very entertaining.
#backfillbadgerholes
It's been said that 10% of the hunters do 90% of the killing. If they put a waiting period on successful hunters that would help keep the 10% from killing every year.If we are trying to limit harvest, why don’t we set up a system where hunters have to report a harvest at the end of the season. Similar to the DH program, you take your unused tag in after the season. If you harvest an animal you have a waiting period and are not eligible to apply for a specified amount of time. I think you would see more hunters be willing to pass animals.
I think there are more ways to limit harvest than by restricting weapons. Maybe something like this would be more effective than weapon restrictions? At the rate we are going we’ll all be hunting with a slingshot before too long.
Isn't getting more people hunting a good thing?Let me see if I am following with all that is going on. Trail cam Ban, Bait Ban, Outfitter Posse Ban, Weaponry restrictions. Mostly tools to save some trophy bucks on LE's. Now with these restrictions we want to put double the amount of people in the field ?? Doesn't that counteract the restrictions and get the same amount of bucks killed ? Do this and next year's topic will be How over crowding is killing the herds. I support the Trail Cam Ban, the Bait Ban and especially the Outfitter babysitter ban. Until the HERDS especially Does can rebound, it doesnt matter how we are killing them. We are still going to kill them.
Yes. It is. However, I personally do not see how you can add more hunters to a herd that is shrinking and create a formula that sustains the resource.Isn't getting more people hunting a good thing?
Yes. It is. However, I personally do not see how you can add more hunters to a herd that is shrinking and create a formula that sustains the resource.
Maybe I am not reading this correctly, but doesn't your formula still equate with the same amount of critters being killed ? Just takes more people to do it . I thought all these limitations were to allow for a few more critters to survive ?By limiting some technology and practices that make it too easy to kill critters.
This is the way....
By limiting some technology and practices that make it too easy to kill critters.
This is the way....
More hunters and less success is what the DWR wants.Maybe I am not reading this correctly, but doesn't your formula still equate with the same amount of critters being killed ? Just takes more people to do it . I thought all these limitations were to allow for a few more critters to survive ?
They are not going restrict rifles in any way. That would open a huge hornets nest that they don't want to deal with.Just not rifles...... the weapon with the highest kill rate..... only bows and muzzloaders.....makes total sense.
The DWR is not the ones driving this bus.More hunters and less success is what the DWR wants.
Big money is driving the bus that's labeled DWRThe DWR is not the ones driving this bus.
Because arguing with people on the internet is apparently more fun and hunters aren't really after problem solving conversations. Instead they want to ask how we can stomp out ways of hunting we don't like.
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