Anyone remember that one time back in the good ole days? The year was...

[deadibob]

1993. I went to a DWR meeting in St. George. I believe they had not yet started to call them RAC meetings. Anyways those boys in brown were trying to sell us on the next great idea. THE POINT SYSTEM!

I still remember how they tried to convince us (do you guys want to hunt little bulls every year or big mature bull elk every five years? ) Most folks in the room weren't buying it even back then. If we had a crystal ball in the room and could see what it is like now I'm pretty sure there would have been a bunch of brown pinatas swinging from the ceiling.

BIG BULLS EVERY FIVE YEARS! and they said it with a straight face! I think the only lies i've ever heard even close to this are the ones I tell my wife and she doesn't even believe those ones.

I kept the handouts from that meeting for about 20 years but somewhere along the way they disappeared and I don't think it was an accident How about it, does anyone still happen to have the papers they handed out to us? Does anyone else recall those meetings? I could use a good laugh about now. Lying Baztards!

Nobody wanted it then but they forced it on us anyway.

 

[elkassassin]

You've heard Me Say It Many Times!

I Told Everybody This System That Was DREMPT Up Would Not Work!

They Argued & Said Yes It Would Work!

I Said:

You'll Think It's Working For A While!

What'Ya Gonna Do When We Get Down The Road 20-30 Years?

I Also Asked How It Would Be Fair To Future Generations Of Youth Hunters?

I Never Got An Answer From Anybody On That One!

Well!

Here The HELL We Are!

How Y'All Liking The Points System Just About Now?

I've Heard Joe Blow Hunters Say:

You'll Have To Give Your Points Up & Start Over!

HINT:

I Ain't Giving My F'N Points Up!

 

[Mtngoat690]

1993. I went to a DWR meeting in St. George. I believe they had not yet started to call them RAC meetings. Anyways those boys in brown were trying to sell us on the next great idea. THE POINT SYSTEM!

I still remember how they tried to convince us (do you guys want to hunt little bulls every year or big mature bull elk every five years? ) Most folks in the room weren't buying it even back then. If we had a crystal ball in the room and could see what it is like now I'm pretty sure there would have been a bunch of brown pinatas swinging from the ceiling.

BIG BULLS EVERY FIVE YEARS! and they said it with a straight face! I think the only lies i've ever heard even close to this are the ones I tell my wife and she doesn't even believe those ones.

I kept the handouts from that meeting for about 20 years but somewhere along the way they disappeared and I don't think it was an accident How about it, does anyone still happen to have the papers they handed out to us? Does anyone else recall those meetings? I could use a good laugh about now. Lying Baztards!

Nobody wanted it then but they forced it on us anyway.

I remember it well. In our northern meeting, we had a statistics specialist come in and explain why it would not work with fancy graphs and numbers. Ill bet his projections were way closer than the ones from the sales pitch pamplet.

I might still have those handouts somewhere. If I do I'll try and post them. I may have trashed them a few years ago.

 

[BeDawg]

The problem isn’t points, it’s the amount of applications for the dwindling resource.

 

[elkassassin]

And Once Again!

What All Is Being Done To Improve Deer Numbers?

I Almost Forgot!

A Whole Bunch Of More STUPID SSHHIT In The Brewing!

The problem isn’t points, it’s the amount of applications for the dwindling resource.

 

[Muley_Hntr]

And Once Again!

What All Is Being Done To Improve Deer Numbers?

I Almost Forgot!

A Whole Bunch Of More STUPID SSHHIT In The Brewing!

Not trying to start a fight,

You seem to be very convinced that the DWR is "lost at sea" so to speak with the management of our wildlife. I don't usually chime in all that much and try to sit back and read to view what others opinions are and try to see where their prospective lies.

But I've noticed your always on the Utah forum basically talking smack on our system. Trust me I don't think our system is flawless and perfect, but it seems nothing they do or try to do is correct in your eyes.

So if you would, please tell me how the system should work. How should tags be allocated, when should tag numbers be increased, and decreased. How would you manage the social component of quality over opportunity. When does a pronghorn actually reach maturity, is it 5 years 8 years, because you claim its not 2-3 years as the division and their biologists research suggest. What point system would you use for applicants, and if no system what would you do. How are you going to grow giant animals, and still give hunters numerous opportunity? Also, with the choice you make, how are you then going to fund the DWR budget, Habitat restoration? Mule deer tracking collars and research?

 

[Betterluckythangood]

I’ll say it again!!’

I am just razzin Deadi and EA

Were you two for all random back then? What was your position at that time?

 

[2lumpy]

I attended most of those pubic meetings, north and south, east and west.

The spike only elk management plan was growing mature bulls across the State of Utah.

After 60 years of killing 80-90 percent of the bull elk every fall, hunters were wanting to hunt and shoot older bulls, with larger antlers. The bureaucrats were listening and sent Dwight Bunnell and Grant Jense to the State of Washington to evaluate the spike only management concepts and see for themselves what was going on with the elk age classes as a result of spike only management. They liked what they saw and believed it would satisfy the Utah elk hunters that were complaining about the quality of the Utah elk herds. Spike only hunting was implemented.

After 4 or 5 years, the result was a lot of units had older, mature bulls with large antlers. Hunter satisfaction went up exponentially…….. however, there weren’t enough elk tags to go around. In order not to decimate the bull elk, both the young bulls as well as the older bulls, the bureaucrats had to put a limit on the number of tags, and the draw system was born, out of an honest effort to protect the elk bull population. The bureaucrats went to a random draw system. That caused another problem in that some people were drawing a tag ever other year while others never ever drew a mature elk tag. Bang……. they solved one problem and caused another one. Their solution to help distribute the mature bulls more evenally amongst hunter was to implement a point system to allow unlucky random draw hunters to eventually get a mature bull tag.

At the same time, with mature bulls on most units, mule deer hunters found a new interest in hunting elk and the demand for tags went up every year. As elk populations increased the tolerance for expanding populations of elk caused more conflict with agriculture and private land owners, until the bureaucrats started reducing elk populations, which then caused the increasing in demand by hunters, wanting more, in more conflict with others who were demanded less elk.

The conflicts then (the 1990’s) as they still are today, are limited supply for an increasing demand………… coupled with a conflict between any male of a species harvest vs mature male of a species.

The draw systems, the point systems etc. are and will continue to be a divisive issue as demand and supply is the reality of all economic systems. Guns or butter……. is as real as it ever has been.

My observations, for what they are worth.

 

[twopointdn]

2004, 2005, 2006, 2014, 2015, 2018, 2021, etc. was good to me. No complaints from me about the current hunting conditions. The good old days are what you make out of today.

 

[elkassassin]

Well CW!

You Need to Pay More Attention!

I'm Not Gonna Repost 24-25 Years Worth Of What I've Posted Already & Umpteen times!

I Made A Proposal A Couple Months Back But Of Course The OPPOR-F'N-TUNISTS Didn't Like It!

It Had something For Everybody & Every Kind Of Hunter!

If The DWR Generates Some Better Quality Bucks & Bulls They Could Name Their Price On Them Permits!

The 2-3 Year Old Antelope deal Must Of PISSED You Off?

Read What yote said about After I Posted What I Said!

I'm Not BS'ING Anybody & Neither Is He!

If 16-18 BUCKS Per 100 DOES Management Doesn't Work Do You Really Think 5 Bucks Per 100 Does BS Management Is Gonna Work?

Let's Start Doing Something Smart Like Doing Things To Increase Deer Numbers,You Hear That?

Yes,The DWR Needs To Make Money!

What Will Bring More Money In Than Anything?

Quality Animals Of All Big Game Species!

Yea,Keep Some PISSCUTTER & OPPORTUNIST Units Going,But After They Destroy Them Units Don't Come A BAWLING!

And In Them 3-4 PISSCUTTER/OPPORTUNIST Units Sell The Tags Un-Limited Over The Counter,Sell 2 Permits To Each Hunter If You Want To,IDRGAF!

The List Goes On & On!

When You Realize There Are 50+ Issues With The Deer Herd You Then Know Why Trying One STUPID Thing To Fix It Ain't Gonna Work!

I Could Go On & On But I'm Not Going To!

Not trying to start A Fight Either!

Let's Do Something SMART Just Once!

Not trying to start a fight,

You seem to be very convinced that the DWR is "lost at sea" so to speak with the management of our wildlife. I don't usually chime in all that much and try to sit back and read to view what others opinions are and try to see where their prospective lies.

But I've noticed your always on the Utah forum basically talking smack on our system. Trust me I don't think our system is flawless and perfect, but it seems nothing they do or try to do is correct in your eyes.

So if you would, please tell me how the system should work. How should tags be allocated, when should tag numbers be increased, and decreased. How would you manage the social component of quality over opportunity. When does a pronghorn actually reach maturity, is it 5 years 8 years, because you claim its not 2-3 years as the division and their biologists research suggest. What point system would you use for applicants, and if no system what would you do. How are you going to grow giant animals, and still give hunters numerous opportunity? Also, with the choice you make, how are you then going to fund the DWR budget, Habitat restoration? Mule deer tracking collars and research?

 

[2lumpy]

Well CW!

You Need to Pay More Attention!

I'm Not Gonna Repost 24-25 Years Worth Of What I've Posted Already & Umpteen times!

I Made A Proposal A Couple Months Back But Of Course The OPPOR-F'N-TUNISTS Didn't Like It!

It Had something For Everybody & Every Kind Of Hunter!

If The DWR Generates Some Better Quality Bucks & Bulls They Could Name Their Price On Them Permits!

The 2-3 Year Old Antelope deal Must Of PISSED You Off?

Read What yote said about After I Posted What I Said!

I'm Not BS'ING Anybody & Neither Is He!

If 16-18 BUCKS Per 100 DOES Management Doesn't Work Do You Really Think 5 Bucks Per 100 Does BS Management Is Gonna Work?

Let's Start Doing Something Smart Like Doing Things To Increase Deer Numbers,You Hear That?

Yes,The DWR Needs To Make Money!

What Will Bring More Money In Than Anything?

Quality Animals Of All Big Game Species!

Yea,Keep Some PISSCUTTER & OPPORTUNIST Units Going,But After They Destroy Them Units Don't Come A BAWLING!

And In Them 3-4 PISSCUTTER/OPPORTUNIST Units Sell The Tags Un-Limited Over The Counter,Sell 2 Permits To Each Hunter If You Want To,IDRGAF!

The List Goes On & On!

When You Realize There Are 50+ Issues With The Deer Herd You Then Know Why Trying One STUPID Thing To Fix It Ain't Gonna Work!

I Could Go On & On But I'm Not Going To!

Not trying to start A Fight Either!

Let's Do Something SMART Just Once!

Yes you have Bobcat……… you’ve championed mule deer……. for sport hunting…….. longer and louder than anyone else on this Forum. To no avail, unfortunately.

 

[elkassassin]

So Lumpy?

Now it's My Fault?

And My Fault Again?

Yes you have Bobcat……… you’ve championed mule deer……. for sport hunting…….. longer and louder than anyone else on this Forum. To no avail, unfortunately.

 

[elkassassin]

Sport hunting?

Now That's LAUGHABLE!

 

[2lumpy]

So Lumpy?

Now it's My Fault?

And My Fault Again?

If it’s your fault it hasn’t been for your lack of trying. Your passion has never wavered, in spite of the constant criticism that’s been directed your way.

 

[middlefork]

@2lumpy I tend to agree with your first post.

1990 DEER HUNT IS GETTING MIXED REPORTS

The Utah deer hunt is always cloaked in questions and this year is no different. This year's hunt could be anything from good to poor, and at this point nothing more is certain.

www.deseret.com

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2840&context=gbn

40% OF PRIVATE LAND WAS OPENED FOR FEE HUNTING IN '86, SURVEY SAYS

Of the 3.3 million acres of private land in Utah, 40 percent was available for fee hunting for deer and elk in 1986, according to a recently released Utah State University survey. While fee hunting took place in 20 of the 29 counties in the state, most hunting for elk and deer took place...

www.deseret.com

 

[hossblur]

I remember the northern meeting. I was 19 at the time.

My first thought was there sure were a lot of old guys. Old dudes bitching.

Which, and not by accident, because the math didn't change, is why the system we have favors old guys.

 

[elkassassin]

Ya!

My Dad went to his Grave with MAX Sheep Points!

As I Tried Telling people,The System Wouldn't Work!

So hossy?

If You Were In At 19 You're Lumped In To The OLD GUYS Pool,Right?

I Sound Like A Broken Record But I'll Say It One More Time:

I Asked What You Gonna Do When You Get Down The Road 25-30 Years & It's Really Not Working?

Well Here The Hell We Are!

I Also Asked About Upcoming Generations Of Hunters Telling Them This Was A BIG Problem & it wouldn't Be Fair To Them!

But Nobody Listened!

How's This Points System Treating Everybody Just About Now?

Most Youth Will Say F'It!

I'm Not Entering 28-30+ Points Down!

And If Dad Isn't Doing Their Paperwork Most Of Them Ain't Much Gonna Care One Way Or The Other!

I Heard Guys Say They'll Just Have To Zero Your Points Out & Start Over!

F'That!

Nobody Is Taking My Points!

So To All The Brain-Storms Out There:

Go Ahead & Make A Fair Fix!

I'll Be waiting!

I remember the northern meeting. I was 19 at the time.

My first thought was there sure were a lot of old guys. Old dudes bitching.

Which, and not by accident, because the math didn't change, is why the system we have favors old guys.

 

[hossblur]

How would I fix it?

Outside of elimination of points schemes?

I'd eliminate point schemes.

This isn't hard. The dudes who fight the hardest, are the oldest.

There are no young dudes on the RAC. No young dudes on the WB.

A resource held in trust by the citizens, is dominated by the oldest among us.


It was super obvious when these schemes started that the screw job came 5 years down the road and it was going to be in the youngest of us.

Young guys looking at 40 years for top tier unit, are fine playing random draw without a point scheme.

It's the old guys that want a guarantee in the next few years.

 

[elkassassin]

Well Hossy!

They Might Want A Guarantee But Guess What?

Not All Of Them Will Get One!

How You Gonna Make It Fair When You Start YANKING Points?

If You Played The Game That I Said Wasn't Gonna Be Fair Before It Was Started,You Either:

Have a Fair Amount Of Points Built Up?

Or You've Drawed A Couple Tags?

Or Maybe You Didn't Play The Game?

Of Course It's Not Fair To The Younger Generations Of Hunters Wanting To Play!

Is It Fair To YANK Points From The PLAYERS? Or Should I Have Said: OLD GUYS?

Don't Even Try It!

 

[hossblur]

Fair?

Random draw is fair.

Everyone has an equal chance to draw.

There's zero fairness otherwise.


As to "points". The majority of points are from being unsuccessful.

The rest are "bought"(you own nothing).


We call that an app fee. Poof, they are gone and we actually do FAIR.

 

[elkassassin]

Fair?

Random draw is fair.

You Sure About That?

The SFW (Who We Know You Love!) Draw Is Random,Or Is It?

Everyone has an equal chance to draw.

There's zero fairness otherwise.


As to "points". The majority of points are from being unsuccessful.

The rest are "bought"(you own nothing).


We call that an app fee. Poof, they are gone and we actually do FAIR.

It Should Be FAIR!

But As you Already Know,It Hasn't Been!

 

[hossblur]

You don't get guaranteed win in the lotto be ause you've played it longer.

Tag lotto should be no different

 

[SlowElk]

My 2 cents.... Stop selling points, allocate 20% of all tags to current point holders, remaining 80% to random. After you draw and expend your points, you are back in random. After 5-10 years, all point holders either draw or die off, those 20 % go back to random. Allows for point holders to use their points, until all points have been used, then it goes to straight random draw.
Edit: I have no dog in this fight, I live in Arizona, I would like Arizona to go this way also.

 

[elkassassin]

But you Didn't Answer My Question!

I Heard If They Eventually Go Back To A Random Drawing Someway,Somehow The SFW Has Dibbs On Running That Draw!

You Gonna Be OK With That?

You don't get guaranteed win in the lotto be ause you've played it longer.

Tag lotto should be no different

 

[elkhunter81]

Ah the "fair" word. There is nothing fair in this life. I think the best way to help draw odds is if everyone who thought it isn't fair quit applying. Get out of the game. Buy a camera save some vacation. Take the kids and grandkids on a vacation.

 

[elkassassin]

Time For A Song!

Again!

 

[nmbighorn]

I remember NM started a points system...lasted only 5 years!!!

 

[Simpleton]

My 2 cents.... Stop selling points, allocate 20% of all tags to current point holders, remaining 80% to random. After you draw and expend your points, you are back in random. After 5-10 years, all point holders either draw or die off, those 20 % go back to random. Allows for point holders to use their points, until all points have been used, then it goes to straight random draw.
Edit: I have no dog in this fight, I live in Arizona, I would like Arizona to go this way also.

Other than it would take much, much longer than 5-10 years to burn though all point holders. A 33 year old can have 20 points and be multiple decades away from drawing many OIL tags. A 23 year old can have 10 points and be twice as far out with the creep. Longer by 2.5x if you reduce the split from 50% to 20%. There isn’t a perfect solution that everyone (or even most) will like, let alone agree on. If it existed, it would have been brought up by now.

 

[elkassassin]

They Told Me It Would Work!

I Told Em It Wouldn't!

Here We Are!

I Guess I'm One Of Them OLD BASTARDS That BITTCHES That Hossy Speaks Of!

Other than it would take much, much longer than 5-10 years to burn though all point holders. A 33 year old can have 20 points and be multiple decades away from drawing many OIL tags. A 23 year old can have 10 points and be twice as far out with the creep. Longer by 2.5x if you reduce the split from 50% to 20%. There isn’t a perfect solution that everyone (or even most) will like, let alone agree on. If it existed, it would have been brought up by now.

 

[BearBait49]

We all know life isn't fair and there certainly isn't a "fair" way to "fix" the Utah system if it even needs fixing. But here's an idea on the Random side of the allocations. Make it completely Random. Every applicant that didn't draw in the reserved pool gets 1 name in the Random hat. As it stands now there are big differences in the chances an applicant has at a random tag based on individual bonus points. If everyone was just in one Time it would be"fair". I think this makes a lot of sense especially where the younger generation of hunters come in to play. For hunts that only offer 1 tag I would say go straight random without regard to points on those as well

 

[2lumpy]

Time For A Song!

Again!

Great rhythm and lyrics. You can tell these guys were getting older……… A lot of us still have something say.

"End Of The Line"

Well it's all right, riding around in the breeze
Well it's all right, if you live the life you please
Well it's all right, doing the best you can
Well it's all right, as long as you lend a hand

You can sit around and wait for the phone to ring (End of the Line)
Waiting for someone to tell you everything (End of the Line)
Sit around and wonder what tomorrow will bring (End of the Line)
Maybe a diamond ring

Well it's all right, even if they say you're wrong
Well it's all right, sometimes you gotta be strong
Well it's all right, As long as you got somewhere to lay
Well it's all right, everyday is Judgment Day

Maybe somewhere down the road aways (End of the Line)
You'll think of me, wonder where I am these days (End of the Line)
Maybe somewhere down the road when somebody plays (End of the Line)
Purple haze

Well it's all right, even when push comes to shove
Well it's all right, if you got someone to love
Well it's all right, everything'll work out fine
Well it's all right, we're going to the end of the line

Don't have to be ashamed of the car I drive (End of the Line)
I'm just glad to be here, happy to be alive (End of the Line)
It don't matter if you're by my side (End of the Line)
I'm satisfied

Well it's all right, even if you're old and gray
Well it's all right, you still got something to say
Well it's all right, remember to live and let live
Well it's all right, the best you can do is forgive

Well it's all right, riding around in the breeze
Well it's all right, if you live the life you please
Well it's all right, even if the sun don't shine
Well it's all right, we're going to the end of the line

Thanks for sharing BC!

 

[elkassassin]

Hey Lumpy!

I Need To Re-Write It & Make An MM Version Of The Song!

Great rhythm and lyrics. You can tell these guys were getting older……… A lot of us still have something say.

"End Of The Line"

Well it's all right, riding around in the breeze
Well it's all right, if you live the life you please
Well it's all right, doing the best you can
Well it's all right, as long as you lend a hand

You can sit around and wait for the phone to ring (End of the Line)
Waiting for someone to tell you everything (End of the Line)
Sit around and wonder what tomorrow will bring (End of the Line)
Maybe a diamond ring

Well it's all right, even if they say you're wrong
Well it's all right, sometimes you gotta be strong
Well it's all right, As long as you got somewhere to lay
Well it's all right, everyday is Judgment Day

Maybe somewhere down the road aways (End of the Line)
You'll think of me, wonder where I am these days (End of the Line)
Maybe somewhere down the road when somebody plays (End of the Line)
Purple haze

Well it's all right, even when push comes to shove
Well it's all right, if you got someone to love
Well it's all right, everything'll work out fine
Well it's all right, we're going to the end of the line

Don't have to be ashamed of the car I drive (End of the Line)
I'm just glad to be here, happy to be alive (End of the Line)
It don't matter if you're by my side (End of the Line)
I'm satisfied

Well it's all right, even if you're old and gray
Well it's all right, you still got something to say
Well it's all right, remember to live and let live
Well it's all right, the best you can do is forgive

Well it's all right, riding around in the breeze
Well it's all right, if you live the life you please
Well it's all right, even if the sun don't shine
Well it's all right, we're going to the end of the line

Thanks for sharing BC!

 

[2lumpy]

Hey Lumpy!

I Need To Re-Write It & Make An MM Version Of The Song!

In truth, it is almost a perfect MM version already. If Harrison, Perry, Lynne, Dylan and Orbison where twenty years older, all grey haired, wrinkled up, wearing faded Wranglers, plaid shirts, and setting around a hot coals campfire…….. singing this song…… that’s all it would take.

Lots of folks have played this at their funeral………. hint, hint……. You’ve earned it my friend……. It pretty much tells the story of your life. (But…… don’t get in a hurry.)

 

[MrShane]

We all know life isn't fair and there certainly isn't a "fair" way to "fix" the Utah system if it even needs fixing. But here's an idea on the Random side of the allocations. Make it completely Random. Every applicant that didn't draw in the reserved pool gets 1 name in the Random hat. As it stands now there are big differences in the chances an applicant has at a random tag based on individual bonus points. If everyone was just in one Time it would be"fair". I think this makes a lot of sense especially where the younger generation of hunters come in to play. For hunts that only offer 1 tag I would say go straight random without regard to points on those as well

Utah is already the most fair of all the systems.
50% of the tags for those who patiently wait in line.
50% for random.
Our areas with only one tag are only in a full random draw.

 

[BearBait49]

.

Utah is already the most fair of all the systems.
50% of the tags for those who patiently wait in line.
50% for random.
Our areas with only one tag are only in a full random draw.

Im from Utah and know how our system works. And I agree with you on that Utah does have the best points system of any state that has them . But if we made some tweaks on the random draw (not giving applicants an extra name in the hat for every bonus point they have accrued) I wouldn't be opposed. Food for thought is all