Best Black Powder Substitute?

crazyelk · Sep 18, 2008

I have messing with my T/C Renegade .54 cal with 777. Some shots go off fine. However, with some I get some pretty good hang fires. This is driving me nuts. I am normally using #11 caps with at a hot nipple for T/C. I even tried a musket nipple with musket caps. Still had some hangers.

Since it is real hard to find plain old black powder, I am stuck with using the substitutes. Are any of them better than others for traditional muzzleloaders? Was planning to try pyrodex rs next. Will this stuff ignite bette than 777? Any advise let me know. Thanks.....

APBT · Sep 18, 2008

Switch to either 3f 777 or pyrodex p as its much finer and will fill under the nipple better.

www.GandersPowerbeltForu.Powerguild.net

Sagebrush1 · Sep 19, 2008

LAST EDITED ON Sep-19-08 AT 06:33AM (MST)[p]not sure were you live Smith and Edwards in Ogden has goex, I was getting good results with pryodex rs out of my traditional. I switched over to goex to get the tighter groups.

as for finding goex you can buy it on line and the hazmat fees are included in the price. best way to buy is bulk. go to goex web site and look under dealers. or go here, they have the best prices on the Internet.
http://www.powderinc.com/catalog/order.htm

hntbambi · Sep 19, 2008

In a traditional percussion gun I would definately use Pyrodex P. It is a lot easier to ignite than T7. In a flintlock Pyrodex RS was not that great, but with a cap its ok. Or, you can bite the bullet and pay the hazmat charges and mail order Goex.

Frontier · Sep 19, 2008

LAST EDITED ON Sep-19-08 AT 03:02PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Sep-19-08 AT 02:59?PM (MST)

Of course make sure you're using a magnum cap. The first thing I do is dry fire a couple of caps after a cleaning and before the gun is loaded. I then dump in 10 grains of Goex then the rest of my triple 7 load. After the first shot of this combination I use 100% triple 7. If the gun is thorougly cleaned then I go back to the 10 grains of Goex and the T7. Have never had a mis-fire or hang fire doing this, but I suppose theres always a first time.
I do mainly hunt and target shoot with traditionals. Another thing to remember is T7 shelf life is not that good, older stuff is more prone to hang fires and mis fires.

Brine · Sep 20, 2008

I have a 32" - 1/28" twist Green Mountain barrel. This is a custom made traditional Hawkin using the #11 cap. I am shooting a knight 260 Grain sabot bullet.

I can drive nails with regular black powder, but using triple seven, clean shot, or pyrodex I am lucky to hit the outside edge of a large target. I am going to the pauns. this year and would like to find a substitute that will not require cleaning after every shot.

Any suggestions out there?

Sagebrush1 · Sep 20, 2008

how many shots does it take to kill a deer? If you say that you can drive nails with black powder then I guess that is what I would be using, unless you do not have any confidence in yourself.

OwnMoreBone · Sep 20, 2008

Brine,
I just switched to the New BlackHorn 209 powder and I will never go back to black. 20 to 30 shots between cleaning and easy loading every time.
OMB

There's room for all of God's creatures, right next to the mashed taters and gravy.

Brine · Sep 20, 2008

Ownmorebone,

Thanks for your response. The lingering question is if it will ignite with a #11 cap.

It is not a question of my capablities to hit a deer. I've shot many bucks (and elk) with a ML (and some with a 62 cal. flintlock to boot), but with these modern gun I thought some of you out there might have an easy clean solution for that second/forth shot, that would group, should there be a heat of a chase.

Back to the question: Do you think the regular nipple is enough for good ignition?

hntbambi · Sep 21, 2008

Nope, a #11 is not hot enought to ingite BH209. It takes a full 209 primer to get it to go off. Even the reduced power 209 primers designed for Triple 7 are not good enough for consistent ignition.

Stick with Pyrodex. Yeah, its a bit nasty, but a spit patch and dy patch is all that is needed between shots for good accuracy and consistency.

I would feel the need to swab between shots even more so with T7 than Pyrodex. Once that crud ring gets going, it's a bear to seat the next bullet. Maybe it is not forming with the #11 cap though.

Brine · Sep 21, 2008

Pyrodex will not group in my gun. I can get a 3" group, not sand bagged in and no scope at 100 yards with regular black powder. now that's not too bad. Guess I'm stuck with the old stuff, cleaning after each shot.

Do any of you have any other ideas for a deer hunting situation where I may need a second or third shot?

hntbambi · Sep 21, 2008

What's the big deal with swabbing between shots? When I hunted Virginia, we could shoot 2 deer per day. Often I shot one, swabbed, reloaded, then shot another within 2-3 minutes. I keep a cleaning jag on my ramrod and some patches in my pocket.

Brine · Sep 21, 2008

>What's the big deal with swabbing
>between shots? When I
>hunted Virginia, we could shoot
>2 deer per day.
>Often I shot one, swabbed,
>reloaded, then shot another within
>2-3 minutes. I keep
>a cleaning jag on my
>ramrod and some patches in
>my pocket.

No big deal when you're in a tree stand shooting a deer at 25 yards and really it's not a big deal anyway, but if I'm going to hold out for a 180 class deer and could be shooting 150 to 200 yards I need the best of the best when it comes to accuracy and fast loading. This is not an average four point hunt(ten point your count with the browtines).

By the way I'll be lucky to get one shot in 9 days being that selective and one must take all of the variables out of the equation so that if the deer is down it stays down.

hntbambi · Sep 21, 2008

It does not matter what size the deer is, a kill shot is a kill shot. Swabbing and reloading is the same if you are in a treestand shooting short range or here in the west shooting 250 yards. Make the first shot count, and anchor the deer, oh, and hope that Founder is not behind you.

Brine · Sep 21, 2008

I'm really not here to debate a kill shot, we all know what you say to be true. I'm just trying to find a better option for a fast reload. When you are out walking, or the environment is not exactly ideal, or the deer moves as your shot goes off, or even if you pull a shot. I've been on the Paunsaugunt plenty of times for myself or others and I'm here to tell you, a big buck is harder to bring down than a small one. I've seen several that took another shot to finish the job.

txhunter58 · Sep 23, 2008

Blackhorn is out.

That leaves 777 and pyrodex as your best options (IMO).

I did a couple of things to eliminated hangfires in my renegade. First, use the magnum primers or the musket caps. Second, use the finer powder (like 3f 777). Third, pour in aprox. 10-15 grains first and bump your rifle to get them to settle into the channel from the nipple to the barrel using gavity. And lastly, I have always loaded for the hunt, then unscrewed the nipple and poured a few grains in from the back , then replaced the nipple. I have never had a hangfire, missfire in the field.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

Brine · Sep 23, 2008

Thanks 58,

I don't think I was ever getting hangfires, but the 3-F powder is worth trying. Triple Seven would not even hit a 4 ft square target two out of five shots at 100 yards. Pyrodex was not much better. All five shots of black powder was in the bullseye - FIGURE IT? Remember this is a regular authentic looking Hawken rifle except for the fast twist barrel.

I'll try it!! Any other suggestions?

400bull · Sep 24, 2008

Brine,

In reading your posts it sounds like you have done your homework on powder. You have tried Black Powder, Pyrodex, and 3-T with Black being the only one that gives you the accuracy that you are looking for. In my limited exsperiance I have found that changing bullets can have just as much effect on accuracy as changing powder. If you can not find a load that works with your current bullet selection you may want to consider trying a different bullet.

400bull

Brine · Sep 24, 2008

I have tried one other different sabot slug with no difference. I think I will try some others. Thanks for the suggestion.

It is beyond me to understand why the completely absurd difference from bullseye consistency to not even hitting the target just thru change of powder.

I made a Hawken 58 cal. for my son-in-law with a slow twist barrel and the triple-seven made absolutely no difference in his gun over the black powder.

The ignition of the different powder seemed the same, but I just wonder if that is the problem.

The facts are as I have stated them and there should be some of you target-shooting buffs out there that have come across this problem. Input Please?

400bull · Sep 25, 2008

Each rifle has its own personality, just like you and I do. Your rifle apparently loves the current powder/bullet combination that you are using. That may be the only combination that it will like, more then likely with a little experimentation you should be able to find a new bullet/powder combination that your rifle likes. If not I guess your stuck with using black powder.

Couple other suggestion that you may want to try. I noticed that you are using a 260 grain Knight bullet. You may want to up that to 300 grains or more. I have noticed in my Knight MK-85 with a 1/28 twist barrel that it prefers to shoot lugs 300+ grains. I keep trying lower weight bullets to get the better trajectory but I sacrifice accuracy in doing so. I also have not seen where you mentioned your charge volume. If you have not already done so try adjusting you charge in 5 grain increments from 70 grains up to 100 grains.

400bull

Brine · Sep 25, 2008

Just got back from the shooting range. Went to 3F (triple seven) powder and a 300 grain bullet. tried several different quantities of powder. Couldn't group worth a darn with any of the substitutes, but I do appreciate all of the suggestions. It sure was nice to be able to load the gun without cleaning after each shot.

I will tell you this - if it was required to use black powder only for hunting, there would be some frustrated inliners out there.

The last shots were with black powder and the group was back, but I had to clean between shots. I'm still looking for suggestions, but at this point it's back to the good ol' black powder - BETTER PUT EM DOWN THE FIRST SHOT.

Hawkeye · Sep 26, 2008

I sent a pm.

Brine · Sep 26, 2008

I finally got a 6" group using a 295 gr. copper powerbelt and 80 Gr. of 3F tripple seven powder. Not quite as good as the 3" group with regular black powder, but most was probably my shooting. I just had the gun over a bucket and was shooting at 100 yards.

I now have two more questions: First being for you who shoot a lot. Some have told me that substitute powders loose a lot of accuracy in cold weather. Is that true? Do you notice any difference?

I did not get a chance to shoot at 200 yards. What approximate drop can I expect with the above load.