Desert Bighorn Sheep in the "San Juan, South Area".

[TUT]

Desert Bighorn Sheep in the San Juan, South Area.
My question is I have been putting in for Desert Bighorn Sheep in the San Juan, South area for the past few years, and I was wondering if anyone knows anything or anybody that knows about the bighorns in that area.
Any info you could pass on would be grateful. Yes I have been doing my home work like map study, water, feed, recon trips, and so on and posting this blog is just part of that.
The one thing I have found out about this area the sheep act/do things different and are harder to find (not that it is easy any ware else) then any other place that I have seen and that is why I am doing something I have never done before on an hunt, by reaching out for more out side info. No Outfitter referrals please, I'm just a blue collar DIY type.

I have been scouting and putting in for 29 years now. I should of drawn in 2006 but because of a little screw up I only have 17 points as of this year,
so it should only be next year or so.

Thanks,.

 

[Zeke]

So you might draw next year? Correct?

With 17 points you really should have drawn this year. We'll see when the stats come out.

You should have plenty of time to research the unit and there's help out there for a semi-DIY guy.

I have a new MM friend (I sound like a school-boy with a new pen-pal) who drew the tag this year. I think he'd be willing to share some info when the dust settles. I put him in touch with an old friend who knows the unit well. I would guess they both would come through for you once you have a tag in your pocket.

Let us know when you draw and some help can be on the way.

Zeke

PS, my son should draw next year in one of the units. I never know where he'll apply since it seems he changes from year to year.

 

[TUT]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-08-11 AT 01:43PM (MST)[p]
Thanks Zeke,
I have not used a blog before and was not sure if anyone would even respond.
I had 16 points for 2011, I have now 17 after this years draw. The early years I had put in for "Rocky" and "Desert" before I had figured out their point system. To me back then a Sheep tag was a Sheep tag. So I have a "Rocky" point. My luck that will make me about 110 years old or so when/if I get the Rocky tag.
p.s. I am old school so I am not sure what MM means sorry.
Please keep me in mind and I will do the same.
Thanks, TUT

 

[TOPGUN]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-08-11 AT 11:11AM (MST)[p]Good luck on drawing your tag next year TUT. I'm in Michigan and can't really give you any help other than telling you that the MM Zeke mentioned in his response is short for this website, MonsterMuleys, and welcome!!!

 

[TUT]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-08-11 AT 11:36AM (MST)[p]>LAST EDITED ON Jun-08-11
>AT 11:11?AM (MST)
>
>Good luck on drawing your tag
>next year TUT. I'm
>in Michigan and can't really
>give you any help other
>than telling you that the
>MM Zeke mentioned in his
>response is short for this
>website, MonsterMuleys, and welcome!!!

Well Silly Me,,...
Like I said Im new at this Blog thing, Hopefully someone got a kick out of that...
Thanks.

 

[Zeke]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-09-11 AT 12:28PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jun-09-11 AT 12:26?PM (MST)

TUT,
You're talking to a couple old-timers here too (me and topgun).
We all have to learn the "MM" slang and I'm still learning. It's proof that an old dog can learn a new trick or two!

I'm sure folks have got a kick out of some of the stupid things I've said. Yours wasn't that bad.

You are right in there on points and you SHOULD have a permit in one of the units next year, depending on a few factors.

I've spent some time on the South unit but it's far from my most experienced unit. It's a good one though and when you have permit in hand we will chat. I have sheep firends who know the unit well. Until then, have a great time dreaming about big desert sheep!

To keep you dreaming, look at my daughters desert ram which was posted in Nov 2009. (archived posts on MM site. Titled: Desert ram for Jessica.... something like that)
***I just looked the old post up. Click on archived and #82. That's the page it's on.***

Zeke

 

[Skippy]

I drew the unit in 1988 (the year before they closed it for several years) did manage to kill a decent ram.
I have a deer tag this year for Elk Ridge and will be doing a lot of scouting.

If Tut draws I will help him all I can.

I would like to PM Zeke. I would like to talk to his friend that drew. Maybe we could help each other out.

Thanks................Skippy

 

[Zeke]

Skippy,
What type of Elk Ridge weapon type do you have?

We drove through the country several times on our way to hunt sheep on the Dark Canyon Plateau and saw tons of deer. It was closed to deer hunting at that time (1980).

I deer hunted there in 1984, I think, and rifle a good buck. The night before the opener it snowed an honest foot! The deer pulled off the tops and it took us a few days to re-find them.

Good luck with your tag!

Zeke

 

[Skippy]

Zeke, I have a rifle tag. The years you are telling me you hunted down there, It sounds like you are in the same club I am. The over 50 club.

Skippy

 

[TUT]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-13-11 AT 02:28PM (MST)[p]OOUPS..
Tried to send a picture of the sign.
I will keep working on it........

 

[TUT]

Desert Bighorn Sheep in the "San Juan, South Area". ROAD CLOSURE(S)

LAST EDITED ON Jun-13-11 AT 04:03PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jun-13-11 AT 02:30?PM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Jun-13-11 AT 02:25?PM (MST)

C:\Program Files\Qualcomm\Eudora\attach\P10006521.JPG

ROAD CLOSURE(S) "San Juan, South Area"."

Has anyone ever seen a sign like this, It is a first for me.
If you get a Once In A Life Time Tag can they really close the access to hunt the area.?

Sign, Road's Closed: FROM 4-1 TO 7-15 AND 10-15 TO 12-31.
To Motorized Travel Off County Roads To Protect Crucial Desert Bighorn Sheep Lambing And Rutting Areas.

The BLM or someone has been posting/closing the roads in the area and it is getting harder to get in to the area to scout.
Some roads are marked or only have a blank fiberglass post put in the middle of the road, and some just have debris dragged in to block them.
That is why I am not sure if it is the BLM or just who it maybe.
They closed the road going up to Jacob, and through most of Red C. now you have to hike in just to look around, check, or service the guzzler.
Not sure how they expect you to service the guzzler when they close the road(s) to get to it.
I am not talking about a 4x4 road or a atv track, this is/was a full blown automobile grated road that now have wood posts in the road marked CLOSED.

It was open and "graded" last year spring (2010), and now closed sometime summer/fall of (2010).
If they keep this up you will have to park out on the pavement and walk in 20 to 30 miles just to "start scouting".
One road is apx. 36 miles to the lake and is now posted closed FROM 4-1 TO 7-15 AND 10-15 TO 12-31.
That is 30 to 36 miles on foot just to START LOOKING for the sheep in that area.

So most the roads in this unit are closed for most or the best time to hunt sheep.
I guess my biggest hart burn is it takes you up to your hole life to draw a tag and now they close down your access to get in to hunt.
Now add to this what age and health you are/may be in by the time you get a tag.

I know we hear this happening everywhere but from what I know and have seen of this area it shuts most of it down for access,
and one of the reasons I started looking for info on this blog. It scares me that when I finally get a tag that I can't even get into the area to hunt it...

I have been thinking of looking into other units because this.

Just my 2 cents.

TUT

Thanks Zeke, Your Daughters Ram is bruiser. Nice mass...

 

[Skippy]

RE: Desert Bighorn Sheep in the "San Juan, South Area". ROAD CLOSURE(S)

Tut, This is bad news, I was planning on scouting red canyon and other areas south of highway 95. Let me know what is going on. Like I said the last time I was down there was 1988, we drove all over the area scouting back then. If you can't access red canyon that shuts you down on alot of excellent sheep country. Keep me informed.

Thanks.....................Skippy

 

[TUT]

ROAD CLOSURE(S) "San Juan, South Area".

I have talked with the BLM office planner (Brian) he was a nice guy. Acted like he did'ent know what I was talking about but said he would look into it. I have not heard back from him but I think I will, or I will follow up. He said he know of some closures but not the ones I asked him about.

Another thing to note:
Just about every time I have been down I have seen a white passenger Van, "Colorado license plates" loaded with kid's and gear(late teens early 20's)camping in tents, said to be work groups.
I asked one what they where doing, she said it was a work project,,???. I asked where they were from, she said Colorado.
What the H_ll is Colorado youth work groups doing in Utah dragging debris across roads and old camp sites for...?????

This is what the BLM was going to get back with me on.
That is why I am not sure what is "really closed" or "NOT".

BLM Contact:
Brian Quigley
Lead Recreation Planner
Monticello Field Office
Bureau of Land Management
435-587-1503

 

[bighornbob]

RE: Desert Bighorn Sheep in the "San Juan, South Area". ROAD CLOSURE(S)

Not familiar at all with the area but to me it reads that you cant go offroad from April 1 (4-1) to July 15 (7-15) then again from From Oct 15 (10-15) to Dec 31 (12-31) to protect lambing and rutting areas.

To me basically you could use all the roads (especially if it was graded) but cant go offroad with a quad or dirt bike or other motorized vehicle.

Sounds to me there may be offroad issues with guys on quads and dirt bikes going all over hell and half acre and distubing sheep unknowningly.

Like I said if the sign is placed on a graded road, then it is for information only to let people know that off road travel is prohibited. But the roads will remain open.

We have similar places like that here in BC, where you are allowed to use a few main roads to get into the country but are not allowed a motorized vehicle off of it. Lets face it the quads and dirt bikes can and will pretty much go anywhere now a days.

BHB

 

[Zeke]

RE: Desert Bighorn Sheep in the "San Juan, South Area". ROAD CLOSURE(S)

Yup. It looks like you're ok on the county roads but other off-county travel is restricted to travel other than mortorized.

 

[NVMDF]

PM sent.

NVMDF

 

[TUT]

RE: "San Juan, South Area". ROAD CLOSURE(S)

LAST EDITED ON Jun-21-11 AT 04:27PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jun-21-11 AT 04:23?PM (MST)

Weekend Update, 6/18/11: BLM Road Closure Sign.

I went to the Bighorn Sheep Watch on June 18. Trying to meet anyone from the DNR or DWR to find out information on why or what there doing down on the San Juan, South Area.
I met with the sheep biologist over the area and showed him the BLM Road Closure sign picture. He was to my surprise, Surprised to see it. He said he has never seen a sign specified quite like that. He has seen closure for lambing and fawning, But Never for Rutting OR Closures dates during a hunt.
To my pleasant surprise the first words out of his mouth was "Well Just How Do They Expect You To Hunt" and "That Is The Best Time To Locate a Ram".
With his answer I just about jumped in his arms and hugged him. I told him "that is my question, and that is why I made the trip, and why I am here".

He said he was puzzled, and that usually the DNR and BLM work together very well and have meetings before they make animal management decisions like this.
He then (to my surprise again), got on this cell phone trying to make contact to someone down there to find out why.
It was Saturday late afternoon and he did not make contact with anyone at that time.
Told me he just did not have an answer at this time. I gave him a copy (and he wanted one) of the now "infamous" Road Closure sign and he said he would look into it and was sorry he did not have a answer at that time.
We swapped info/e-mail and he said he would look into it. He seamed genuinely puzzled and concerned about the postings in the area and said he would get back to me. So at this time I have two agency's that will hopefully get back, one BLM, and one from the DNR.
Interesting Note: One of the other DNR personal told me that they hire collages students (for the summer) working on their degree and may have improperly posted the wrong roads/signs. I guess will see.

TUT

 

[TUT]

ROAD CLOSURE(S) "San Juan, South Area".

Hi Guys,

Here is a "LITTLE BIT" of correspondence that I thought I would pass on and share with you.
I cant believe how much "confusion" there is about this area, and who is doing what, when, or where.
Still have not even found out who has put up "ANY" of the signage.

Puzzling, I started looking into this last November 2010 after coming a crossed the "wooden posts in the middle of the county road", and after talking to the two main government agency (BLM, DNR) for that area no one knows (yet) who approved the postings / closures.

I have still not received any solid answers regarding this, but hopefully I have not been blown off and I will get one someday.
You know how slow government wheels can turn.

It does appears to have some outside interference from organizations from the state of Colorado.
Will keep you up dated if you like.

On another note, This maybe part of the other thing we talked about on the youth groups or someone else.

I received an e-mail responds saying:
" TUT, So what Wayne found out some animal group out of Colorado is putting up the signs and blocking roads and someone needs to know and take them OUT ".
This maybe part of the other thing we talked about on the youth groups or someone else coming in and doing this.
Things may be heating up on this.

 

[BlueGoat]

RE: ROAD CLOSURE(S) "San Juan, South Area".

Just to give you a little more information. Started scouting the South San Juan three years ago. The signs were in place then. I asked the same questions to the same organizations three years ago. Neither seemed to know anything about the signs, or could give any information about who might have placed them.

Since it has been three years, you could be talking with new people.

I didn't see any sign of the youth groups or anything placed across the roads.

Hope you have better luck than I did. Eventually just let the issue drop when I decided switch units.

Good luck

 

[TUT]

RE: ROAD CLOSURE(S) "San Juan, South Area".

LAST EDITED ON Jun-28-11 AT 09:14AM (MST)[p]Another Update, but still no answer.

ROAD CLOSURE(S) FROM 4-1 TO 7-15 AND 10-15 TO 12-31.
Note: I have not asked for permission to use contact names of the agency contacts yet, or if I need to, so I will just use the first letter of their name till then.

***********************

TUT,

I have done a little digging, but I am still waiting to hear back from some folks. It only closes it to the side canyons off the county road. Also, the DWR does not have the authority to close/open roads on BLM or county owned properties. We do have a good working relationship with the Monticello BLM, and I will continue to work through the issue with them. As soon as I hear back from them, I will email you.

It was good to meet you at the bighorn sheep watch. Talking sheep is one of the highlights of my job, so thank you.

J
Wildlife Program Manager
Southeast Region
Utah Division of Wildlife Resources


****************************************

Good morning J, and thanks for getting back to me.
Re:"wooden posts in the middle of the road"
I also need to clarify, in our short conversation I was jumping around talking about different roads/areas in that unit.
The graded county road that I seen closed with the "wooden posts in the middle of the road" was on the east side of highway 95.
I was told it had all ways been maintained, so I am assuming it was the county running the grader. The grader is usually parked along highway 95.
As far as R Canyon goes my understanding is that the county only maintains it from F Canyon over the loop to R Canyon. From that part of the loop at R Canyon to the lake is about 26 to 28 miles that looks to be effected to this closer, From my map In that 26 to 28 miles there is about 6 or 7 Canyons that run from about 8 to 15 miles deep/long from the R Canyon road, that looks to be effected to this closer.
That one posting immediately takes out about 1/3 of the hunting opportunity to the unit on the closures date.

If you use the Lambing date then the closures can be good, but no one can (by road) or is even getting close to the lambing areas anyway.
If you use the closures date for "Rutting Area" time of the hunt that is ludicrous to me and you may as well shut the area down for the hunt.
Note, this is happening on both sides of highway 95 witch makes it extremely limited on your access on hunting the unit.

On another note, This maybe part of the other thing we talked about on the youth groups or someone else.
I received an e-mail responds saying:
" TUT, So what Wayne found out some animal group out of Colorado is putting up the signs and blocking roads and someone needs to know and take them OUT ".
This maybe part of the other thing we talked about on the youth groups or someone else.
Things may be heating up on this.

This may be part of the problem, noted below.
Interesting Note: One of the other DNR personal told me that they hire collages students (for the summer) working on their degree and may have improperly posted the wrong roads/signs. I guess will see.

Good luck J and please keep in touch,.
TUT...

************************

p.s. J from the DNR said he has never heard of anyone closing a hunting unit down (roads) during the hunting dates...!
No one else that I have talked to has either.

I just may have to do the same BlueGoat, Thanks for your input.
It looks like they closed J chair also, there was "wooden posts in the middle of the road" there also...

 

[TUT]

RE: ROAD CLOSURE(S) "San Juan, South Area".

Let's look at it this way,
You have been waiting all these years and finally drew your early season bugle hunt Trophy Bull Tag.
But when you get to the bottom of the mountain and off the pavement there is a sign posting,
"Roads Closed" 09-1 TO 12-31 To Protect Elk Rutting Areas".
Would you feel like, what the H_ll are they talking about, this is why they give out these Limited-Entry Tags at that time of year.

Now think about putting in for 30 years on a "Once In A Life Time Tag",. and there is only two tags given out for the whole unit.
Leaving you with only 1/3 of the unit accessible and your quarry does not really inhabit the accessible part of the 1/3.

Remember to keep in mind, the area is "Not Closed" in the summer when it is most popular for anyone to go any ware 4 wheeling, ATV'ing, etc; or to do what ever.
I would think the tag holder would feel a little discriminated.

I may just have to go along with BlueGoat.
Just my 2 cents.

 

[TSX]

RE: ROAD CLOSURE(S) "San Juan, South Area".

PM SENT

 

[TUT]

RE: ROAD CLOSURE(S) "San Juan, South Area".

Just thought I would throw out an update.
I have not given up on trying to find out more info from the authorities yet,. Regarding Road Closure(s).
After many e-mails and phone calls "meaning massages left" I finally received a call back from the DNR guy.
He had been out because his wife had a baby, so congratulation to him.
So with that being said, he had not heard back from anyone when he said he would "do a little digging", he said that the BLM had been dealing with some fires down in that region and have not got back to him as of yet and that may be part of the reason.
I think it kind of funny (not in the humorous way) that after over a month not even the DNR guy can get a answer.
I just hope that, that is not the last answer I get.
Keep in mind I have been working on this "Quest" for three years now, not just since I started this post.
Its like the Bermuda Triangle of Utah, you can send stuff in, but nothing comes out.
I have been asked to keep some of you updated, so I will...

TUT

 

[TUT]

RE: ROAD CLOSURE(S) "San Juan, South Area".

LAST EDITED ON Aug-22-11 AT 02:53PM (MST)[p]Here is two little guys I ran into on one of my trips.

 

[elkantlers]

RE: ROAD CLOSURE(S) "San Juan, South Area".

Sounds to me like if no one knows where the signs came from, no one will care if they disappear... Just saying.

 

[TUT]

RE: ROAD CLOSURE(S) "San Juan, South Area".

LAST EDITED ON Aug-25-11 AT 11:19AM (MST)[p]JFYI
May have found part of why I cannot receive an answer from any government official down there. They just don't want to give one at this time.

*** Coming to your Favorite Rural County. ***

This maybe Kane County, But it is wright next to San Juan County.

Read More at:
www.deseretnews.com
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/...-plays-out-in-federal-court.html?s_cid=rss-14

Kane County roads dispute plays out in federal court,.

SALT LAKE CITY NEWS:? They are roads traveled by ranchers, by rural country truckers, deer hunters and maintained by county road construction crews. In the Civil War era, these narrow roads in Kane County rose up out of? Deseret News?


"These roads are part of a county system of transportation heavily relied upon for business, recreation, for purposes of all sorts," said Kane County Commission Chairman Doug Heaton in a telephone interview. "In order to access that, we have to keep these roads open."
When the trial concludes next week, it will be up to Judge Clark Waddoups to decide the scope of the access among tangling parties ? a decision that could set the tone for similar disputed RS2477 road claims throughout Utah.

 

[TUT]

"San Juan County". ROAD CLOSURE(S)

LAST EDITED ON Sep-13-11 AT 01:08PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Sep-13-11 AT 09:06?AM (MST)

"San Juan County". ROAD CLOSURE(S)

Made another trip down to the south San Juan area and I
was fortunate enough to find out a grate deal of information on the road closures on this trip.

Not from the BLM (they would never get back with me), not from the DNR, not from the DWR, but from the "Park Service".
And finally received some good information from the right personal this time in the San Juan County office based in the Monticello.
Not sure wear to start because I could go on for at least ten pages on this.

So what it came down to on what I was told from several people (some in uniform) for last few years or so, was a BLM employee based out of the Hans Flat Ranger Station that took it upon herself to post every non-county road and camp site in a very large area.
From the "new" map that I seen/received (dated 2007) on county maintained roads marked in green.
When the green line ended on the map she posted it.
"Not when the road ended", but when the "green line on the road map ended".

Therefor posting, Or putting up wooden posts and or sings in the
middle or side of the road.
Even if they where well travailed or the road maintenance continued on.
She posted working mines at their gates. She posted privet property mine road's and gates.
She even put up a post in the middle of a guys driveway going up to his house.
Now that guy was really pissed.
I am not making this up and have witnessed most of it.

This all came from the Park Service, County personal, Land and mine owners.
Everyone had the same comment about her being crazy and "self serving attitude" to shut it all down to save the planet.

The County personal said that "this is turning into a real war" with the BLM on road closures.
County personal said they get daily or at least weekly complaints on this.

What I was told is that she was finally fired. Another report said that she was not fired but transferred to another location.

Another thing that I was told (that really surprised me from "them") that when I come a crossed any of these obvious "stupid postings" to just get rid of them. and that no one in there right mind would post "Camp sites and Main Roads".

Looks like the San Juan County is/are doing battle on this, the County asked for help by sending photos and (GPS) locations so they can go out and take them down, or "contest them" with the BLM.
One County guy said they get dozens of "pulled signs" dropped off on their back porch about once a month or so, (a midnight drop I guess).
Chief Deputy Assessor
435-587-3221 ext. 4131
[email protected]

The funny thing is the public is asked by an agency to do there homework, make sure they know wear they are, and what the Regs; say for what they are doing.
Then an "agency" will not even respond to a question.
I understand they maybe a little embarrassed by a bad individual but you still should get some kind of descent responds back.

This has been a "three year quest" to do the right thing and to get the proper information, and after every thing I have done to be on the up & up guess who would still get the ticket for being on the wrong road or camp. LOL

Well there you have it.
Hope you are not having the same problem in your area.

TUT

 

[broomd]

RE: "San Juan County". ROAD CLOSURE(S)

Absolutely predictable!!!

I went through this same scenario a couple years ago with my California bighorn hunt here in Idaho.
I could not get an honest answer out of the Idaho BLM head about 'new' road closures in my unit and posted 'no vehicle' signs in the middle of the roads--not even bicycles allowed!!

I called him several times to ask him to get me a new map (I would pay for) that outlined the newly passed roadless parameters.
He never sent it. Why? Because the roadless areas were PROPOSED and not passed at that time! I walked 30 miles in desert conditions because of these phuking idiots. I literally walked next to a well-established two track road while my wheeler sat in my truck.
I got a great ram, but will never trust any of those people.

Do what you have to do, go in and have a great hunt.

 

[broomd]

RE: "San Juan County". ROAD CLOSURE(S)

>LAST EDITED ON Sep-13-11
>AT 09:06?AM (MST)
>
>"San Juan County". ROAD CLOSURE(S)
>
>
>Made another trip down to the
>south San Juan area and
>I
>was fortunate enough to find out
>a grate deal of information
>on the road closures on
>this trip.
>
>Not from the BLM (they would
>never get back with me),
>not from the DNR, not
>from the DWR, but from
>the "Park Service".
>And finally received some good information
>from the right personal this
>time in the San Juan
>County based in the Monticello
>office.
>Not sure ware to start because
>I could go on for
>at least ten pages on
>this.
>
>So what it came down to
>on what I was told
>from several people (some in
>uniform) for last few years
>or so,was a BLM employee
>based out of the Hans
>Flat Ranger Station that took
>it upon herself to post
>every non-county road and camp
>site in a very large
>area.
>From the "new" map that I
>seen/received (dated 2007) on county
>maintained roads marked in green.
>
>When the green line ended on
>the map she posted it.
>
>"Not when the road ended", but
>when the "green line on
>the road ended".
>
>Therefor posting, Or putting up wooden
>posts and or sings in
>the
>middle or side of the road.
>
>Even if they where well travailed
>or the road maintenance continued
>on.
>She posted working mines at their
>gates. She posted privet property
>mine road's and gates.
>She even put up a post
>in the middle of a
>guys driveway going up to
>his house.
>Now that guy was really pissed.
>
>I am not making this up
>and have witnessed most of
>it.
>
>This all came from the Park
>Service, County personal, Land and
>mine owners.
>Everyone had the same comment about
>her being crazy and "self
>serving attitude" to shut it
>all down to save the
>planet.
>
>The County personal said that "this
>is turning into a real
>war" with the BLM on
>road closures.
>County personal said they get daily
>or at least weekly complaints
>on this.
>
>What I was told is that
>she was finally fired. Another
>report said that she was
>not fired but transferred to
>another location.
>
>Another thing that I was told
>(that really surprised me from
>"them") that when I come
>a crossed any of these
>obvious "stupid postings" to just
>get rid of them. and
>that no one in there
>right mind would post "Camp
>sites and Main Roads".
>
>Looks like the San Juan County
>is/are doing battle on this,
>they asked to send photos
>and (GPS) locations so they
>can go out and take
>them down, or contest them
>with the BLM. One County
>guy said they get dozens
>of "pulled signs" dropped off
>on their back porch about
>once a month, (a midnight
>drop I guess).
>Chief Deputy Assessor
>435-587-3221 ext. 4131
>[email protected]
>
>The funny thing is the public
>is asked by an agency
>to do there homework, make
>sure they know ware they
>are, and what the Regs;
>say for what they are
>doing.
>Then an "agency" will not even
>respond to a question.
>I understand they maybe a little
>embarrassed by a bad individual
>but you still should get
>some kind of descent responds
>back.
>
>This has been a "three year
>quest" to do the right
>thing and to get the
>proper information, and after every
>thing I have done to
>be on the up &
>up guess who would still
>get the ticket for being
>on the wrong road. LOL
>
>
>Well there you have it.
>Hope you are not having the
>same problem in you area.
>
>
>TUT



Post these findings everywhere! Use the opinion page of the paper and every other medium. Let's rat these people out for the gestopo tactics these employ.

 

[TUT]

RE: "San Juan County". ROAD CLOSURE(S)

Received an answer from the DNR guy,
Though I would pass it on.
p.s. Sorry this is so long, but it is a good inform-able read.

********

J:
Just sending you an update from another trip down to the South County San Juan area.

One thing that I keep running into (with not asking about) in that five people have now told me that the DWR or someone has trapped and removed Desert Bighorn Sheep from this unit. I heard it from two different people just his last weekend.
Doesn't anyone know what is going on in the south County San Juan area.
I have been told by to locals that they have not seen any sheep since they did this.
One guy said they where going it when he was on his sheep hunt in the unit.
I know, I know, just like trying to find out info from the BLM I will never get a straight answer if at all right LOL...

Please keep in touch
TUT.

***************************

TUT,
In 2008, the DWR captured 19 bighorn sheep from Hite and released them in John's Canyon (both in the San Juan Unit). That same year, we moved 11 more sheep from the Potash unit to the South San Juan.
So yes, we have been capturing sheep, but it has equated to
an increase of bighorns on the San Juan unit, not a decrease.

J
Wildlife Program Manager
Southeast Region
Utah Division of Wildlife Resources
Office (435) 613-3708

*******************************

Hi J,
Thanks for getting back to me.
Hate to burst the bubble but John's Canyon is not in the San Juan "Unit".
It is in the San Juan "County" down by the Indian reservation but not the "Hunt Unit".
Or am I some how terribly mistaken.
Not sure were the 11 sheep from the Potash unit went in the "County" or "Unit".
The Potash unit needs a transplant (In the unit) for better genetics, they are the smallest sheep in the state as far as body and horn size.
I have even heard of people saying the Potash unit has a dwarf sheep problem, or dwarf-isem, have you heard of that about sheep.?.

The hunter that said he seen them catching sheep during the hunt
seamed upset it was going on during his hunt, any truth in that.?.
If so, why cant they wait till after the "once in a life time hunt" to do a transplant project.

One last question J,
What do you think of the information I found out stated below.
and did you find out anything about the BLM closing sheep areas off during the rut/hunt.

Hope you and your family, and the new little one are doing well.
Please keep in touch.
TUT...

p.s. Sorry J one more question,
Do you know if there is a handicap access pass of some kind to get into closed roads that can be issued by the DWR. Remember what I told you about my accident, it is getting harder every year for me to get around.
I am afraid that when or if I ever get a tag I may not be
able to fill it...

Thanks again,
TUT...

*************************************

TUT,

You are not bursting my bubble. Most bighorn sheep biologists agree that it is better to have a meta-population structure for bighorn sheep as opposed to having all sheep clumped in the same area. Range expansion is healthy for the entire population regardless if they are in the hunt unit or out of the unit. If these smaller populations on the fringe of the unit end up growing, than they may be included in the hunt unit in the future. The literature shows that this is a better management strategy than throwing transplant after transplant into the same area. Sheep are poor colonizers/explorers and are susceptible to density dependent issues; thus, we are comfortable with our management strategy of augmenting populations in areas where we want range expansion.

Additionally, the DWR does not capture bighorn sheep during hunts (don't believe everything you here). We generally wait to trap sheep in January because that is when it is the coldest. The internal temperature of bighorn sheep rises quickly when they are handled, and it is better to do this on the coldest days possible (not in October).

Regarding the road closures, the BLM recently updated their Resource Management Plan (RMP), and it does not call for road closures during the hunts. The BLM has since taken down those signs, which were put in place on an interim basis until the Travel Plan portion of the RMP was completed. Again, we support the idea of closing areas in critical lambing habitat during the spring, but I still am unsure why they were closed in the fall for the rut.


Finally, the DWR cannot give handicap access passes on public lands managed by the FS or BLM. They manage the land and access, and we manage the wildlife. You may want to contact them to see what they can do for you.

Thanks,
J
Wildlife Program Manager
Southeast Region
Utah Division of Wildlife Resources
Office (435) 613-3708

***************************

J,

Thank you for you time,
I agree with you on your answer(s) meta-population structure, and time of the year to trap sheep in January,.
I was aware of internal temperature and stress on the sheep, that's why it did not make any sense in November during the hunt.
The hunter said it was the first week in November in witch is the last week of the hunt, but your answer sounds allot more creditably for reasons stated.

Your contact has been very inform-able and helpful and you are very much appreciated and you have my thanks.
I just wish that the BLM would be more help.

The funny thing is the public is asked by an agency to do there homework, make sure they know wear they are, and what the Regs; say for what they are doing. Then an "agency" will not even respond to a question. I understand they maybe a little embarrassed by a bad individual but you still should get some kind of descent responds back like the one you gave me regarding "BLM recently updated their Resource Management Plan (RMP)" at a minimum you would think.
This has been a "three year quest" to do the right thing and to get the proper information, and after every thing I have done to be on the up guess who would still get the ticket for being on the wrong road. LOL

Once again thank you,

p.s. I would like to keep in contact with you if I could and hope the Lambing information in R. Canyon helped.
I may need to pick your brain if I get my sheep tag, I have 17 points. I also would take any advice on the best place to put in on a good ram with good accessibly.
I just may be a little burned out on this Unit now...

Thanks again,
TUT

 

[dkpeay]

RE: "San Juan County". ROAD CLOSURE(S)

In my opinion, this whole argument about closing roads to protect lambing areas or rutting areas is PURE BS.

Don't make such a lame excuse.

They don't want oil and gas development with one well every 40 acres - to much disturbance. yet deer run around our neighboorhood in Bountiful, Utah with dogs barking 24 7, cars 24/7 and the deer can navigate between houses on half acre lots.

kind of figure out one well per 40 acres with an occasional truck is OK.

If we didn't need gas to drive to hunt, i guess we could be opposed to drilling. If we don't think America needs to develop its own energy, i guess we don't need to worry about our $14 trillion debt that is causing massive layoffs and un employment.

Now for wild sheep, perhaps the most high density lambing and rutting area for sheep in the west is along the Green River Cooridor, where hundreds of sheep rut. it is a real treat to drive up and down that river for 15 miles and see all the sheep, many times, right on the road. For some reason, those sheep don't seem to mind people or cars for the last 20 years.

I love wild places and wild things, and love to hike into remote places.

however, it just shows how far out of touch our government folks have gotten.

Close a road for lambing and rutting areas, come on, get serious.

In the end, if we allow this to happen, there will be a substantial political backlash against wild sheep, if the Guberment uses them to stop any reasonable travel and energy development. IF allowed to be used as weapons of the extremists, elected officials will oppose any expansion of wild sheep populations.

Don

 

[bowhunt]

RE: "San Juan County". ROAD CLOSURE(S)

So have you hunted yet? Have you seen any Rams?

 

[TUT]

RE: "San Juan County". ROAD CLOSURE(S)

Thanks for your reply Don,
What I think that is amassing about this whole thing is our own Utah BLM.
I was not looking for a argument or a fight or trying to make someone look bad.
I was just trying to do my part to gather the proper information.
"And no one seamed to know or have it".
I have talked to several BLM personal on the phone or stopping by regional office(s).
They have all been nice, but would always say that they would "get back to me".

To this date the Utah BLM has never responded to any of my email(s) (other then they had received them), and not one phone call has ever been returned.
The interesting thing is that I did have responds come back from a "Colorado BLM" person.
He tired to find out, and did on a few things, but still did not have an answer for why the Utah BLM was doing what they are/were doing, (like posting rutting areas during the hunt).

Thanks for your in-put.
TUT

 

[TUT]

RE: "San Juan County". ROAD CLOSURE(S)

No not yet. Still working on getting a tag in the next year or two.
I have not seen many sheep in this unit in the last few years.

 

[TUT]

RE: "San Juan County". ROAD CLOSURE(S)

JFYI
"San Juan County Investigates the BLM"

And so it continues?

Looks like they are very quietly closing down and locking us out of our public lands.

In Today's Paper (deseretnews.com)

"Juan County launches criminal investigation of BLM"
http://www.deseretnews.com
Type/look under San Juan County Investigates the BLM.

 

[treedagain]

RE: "San Juan County". ROAD CLOSURE(S)

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/...nches-criminal-investigation-of-BLM.html?pg=1