DWR: Why recommend to stop elk management hunts?

[utswell]

There has been a lot of discussion about the Wildlife Board approving spike elk hunting on Monroe, Pahvant, Indian Peaks, etc...

What I don't understand it why the DWR wanted to discontinue the Management Elk hunts on these units? I've heard it said these hunts did not work. What was the problem?

I still think they were preferable to spike hunting. They reduced the bonus point pool and gave people another option for mature bulls.

Sorry, but I can't figure this one out.

 

[shotgunjim]

Because the 5 pt. bulls being killed were just busted up 6 and 7 pointers and not the true 5 pt. bulls that they wanted harvested.

 

[1highpeak]

+1 to that shotgunjim!

 

[apollosmith]

But they're positive management hunts are going to work wonderfully for deer. <rollseyes>

 

[swbuckmaster]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-07-08 AT 07:56AM (MST)[p]I don't know how the division comes up with their plans. They don't seem to think about what they propose and they don't look at history.

Spike hunts state wide doesn't over crowd. But state wide archery does?

Management elk tags in the rut don't work because tards don't know what a management bull looks like. But management tags in the rut will work for deer because tards can tell what a deer management buck looks like?


Both will work but the season dates needed to be changed so tards won't be shooting broken bucks/bulls.


Archery is a year round commitment!!

 

[slamdunk]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-07-08 AT 03:03PM (MST)[p]Not only do they kill broken "trophy bulls", a lot of young 5x5 bulls were being taken, not the big old mature 5x5 & 5x6's that the plan was intended for.
Management hunts flat don't work, the cows hold the bad gene too.

As far as spike hunts bing opened on the good LE units, i have mixed feelings on this.
It doesn't "wipe out" the future bulls by any means.
They already know that at least 10% of the spike bulls survive the hunts. Has it ruined the Wasatch and Manti units?
Heck no, those herds have exploded to the point where they have to issue what most of feel are "to many tags" for big bulls because the herds are too big.
The herds on the other LE units in question are getting too big, but they don't want to issue more "mature bull" tags and shoot out the top end caliber of bulls it has grown.
So, you issue spike bull tags and more cow tags, keep the herds size numbers managed and they remain trophy areas.
What has ruined the Wasatch is too many mature bull tags and we have lost the "cream of the crop" bulls.
I'm just afraid this will eventually happen on the other LE units as well.

Ok critics....hammer me. ;-)

 

[out4elk]

+1 Slam

Same has happened on the Manti killing most of the top end bulls and limiting its trophy potential

?Here?s to the hero's that Git-R-Done!!?

 

[swbuckmaster]

Slam the management tags were never really meant to get bad genes out of the pool. They were just used to allow more mature bulls/bucks to be killed. They were made for people to spend their points and get out of the way relieving the bonus point butt plug. If it so happens to help clean some of the gene pool up then that would just be a bonus.

In my mind I could care less if people/tards killed a broken bull because it was a bull someone else didn't want and they had to use their points. I just don't see the reason for people to kill spikes for free.




Archery is a year round commitment!!

 

[slamdunk]

SWbucky-
I can totally agree with the first part of your statement.

But only beleive your second to be partially true, IMO.
Not every trophy bull gets looked over by a hunter that MAY have killed that bull prior to him breaking a point or two off.
Anyone in their right mind would not pass on a 400" bull in hopes of a 420, that's just plain greed or ignorance of what they are actually looking at (for lack of a better words).

Then that bull goes off and get's smoked by a management tag hunter after he breaks a beam........that's just plain wrong (IMO) and a "responsible hunter" should know and realize this.

But, as we all know.....it doesn't always happen like this and opinions are just simply that.

 

[JDC]

I was one that was at the RAC and the Board recommending the continuation of the management hunts as well as expanding them to all areas that needed to reduce the bull component of the bull/cow ratios. The logic behind this was that a controlled number of permits was a better solution than what is essentially an uncontrolled hunt. Spike only hunting will not likely destroy the trophy potential on the limited entry units as a sufficient number of spikes do survive each year. However, there was an opportunity to give more people the opportunity to hunt something other than a spike. This would also run more people through the point system bettering the odds for everyone. There were almost 800 applicants for the 4 management hunts this past year. Increase the number of hunts available (possibly even adding weapon choices) this could have drawn more than 5,000 applicants out of the trophy draws. That is better than 10% of the total applicants.

The management hunts that had been in place for the past 2 years were intended to target the "genetically inferior" bulls. This wasn't working because people were taking the first legal bull they could find. Even the DWR said that the average age of the bulls harvested was very low. I believe that it was around 3-4 years. My question was: What is the difference between taking an unlimited number of spikes or a controlled number of 3-4 year old branch antlered bulls? It is still reducing the bull/cow ratio's and they both have the potential of becoming a trophy bull given the time to grow. Spikes would still be taken as would some of the big ?genetically inferior? bulls. We even proposed running the season earlier, hunting before they got all busted up, thus protecting the older bulls.

Obviously it wasn't a good enough proposal. Was I up in the night???

Jon
www.HuntersTrailhead.com

 

[slamdunk]

Jon-
EXCELLENT post!!

I was just discussing this very issue this morning about moving the management tags earlier to keep people from killing "busted up trophy bulls". (two thumbs up from me!)

I also would be in favor of an online educational course for those successful at drawing these permits, to give them a crash course on what a "true" management bull is.

 

[BBB]

Jon,

I, as well, have wondered why the UDWR would open up spike tags on LE units and do away with the management concept. Why would you allow spike hunters, that are buying OTC tags, to manage the bulls on Utah's LE elk units without any spike quota per unit, in lieu of setting a limited amount of tags to target branch-antlered management bulls? I understand most management hunters weren't killing genetically inferior bulls as intended; however, these hunters made the decision to use up their numerous bonus points to draw a management tag. The overall goal was accomplished, to balance the bull:cow ratio.

I wonder what will happen to certain units, such as Monroe, where it is fairly easy to find the large herds of elk. Those spikes are gonna get hammered!

My .02...

 

[slamdunk]

3B-
There's no way to set a "quota" on the spikes because they don't even come close to harvesting them all.

They know that at LEAST 10% survive the hunts.

I totally beleive this estimate because when i have gone on the winter range of the wasatch or the manti, it's amazing how many spike bulls are still alive.

 

[bragabit]

How many of you guys worried about killing all of the spikes have ever tried the spike only hunt? It certainly is not drive around and shoot a spike out of a herd of cows. The mature bulls have the spikes chased out of the herds. It would be alot easier to kill a 300" bull rather than a spike.

 

[slamdunk]

>How many of you guys worried
>about killing all of the
>spikes have ever tried the
>spike only hunt? It
>certainly is not drive around
>and shoot a spike out
>of a herd of cows.
> The mature bulls have
>the spikes chased out of
>the herds. It would
>be alot easier to kill
>a 300" bull rather than
>a spike.

Totally true statement.
Spike hunting is more like trophy hunting, you have so sift through so many bulls before you find a "shooter".

 

[BBB]

I hunted Utah spike hunts for years before I moved out of state. I never said the general season spike hunt was an easy hunt; however, I think there will be quite a few more spikes killed off of LE units during the general season spike hunt than there would be branched bulls killed on management hunts...don't you?

I think it makes sense to harvest that animal when it is a little bit bigger than a yearling to provide more opportunity in Utah to harvest a branch-antlered bull. I'm aware spike bulls get pushed out of herds during the rut, but generally drift back in with the cows in October.

One large herd of elk in a meadow + 5 OTC spike tags in a pickup = yikes...

 

[bragabit]

BBB,
Yes I think there will be more spikes killed during the spike only hunt than would be during a management hunt. But only because there will be more tags issued. If you offered 100 spike tags, or 100 branch antlered tags there would be more branch antlered bulls killed. The first week of Oct. you will be hard pressed to find a spike in a herd of cows with the number of mature bulls on the LE units. You are right the spikes do drift back into the herds after the pressure forces the big bulls to leave the cows. The muzzleloader hunt is when you will find the bulls with cows.

 

[BBB]

I know its much easier to kill a branch bull than it is a spike bull in Utah. If they offered this same OTC tag for branch bulls it would be a slaughter because there are obviously more branch bulls than 1 1/2 year olds in the population.

Why not give a guy the chance to burn his years of points on a branch-antlered bull management hunt? The benefits to this sort of hunt are:
-It gives the guys that are looking for a fun big bull hunt but don't care if it scores in the upper 300's the chance to score with a few less points than what it takes to draw a coveted tag.
-It balances out bull:cow ratios
-It shuffles applicants through the draw system much faster
-Provides more opportunity for older-class bulls
-Helps cull some genetically inferior bulls that weren't being targeted otherwise. (I know not everyone targeted these mgmt. bulls)

Please, someone explain the advantages of the OTC spike hunts on LE units?

Thanks for listening...just one guy's perspective.

 

[Cam@strawberry]

bbb the reason that management hunts were scrapped is cause they sucked. Your reasons are exactly the same as the divisions and they didnt work.

True if they kill the bulls that they are supposed to the threes fours and fives then its a hunky dory and jim dandy hunt and great idea. The prob is they werent, they were killin off the broken up mature bulls. So instead of it bein a management hunt it was a trophy hunt for a broken bull that met the criteria. change this hunt to an earlier date and you might have better success but it still doesnt do the job its supposed to cause what bull are you gonnna hunt for?? the five point, its sheerly human to want the biggest you can get. So instead of spikes gettin killed you have up and coming mature bulls gettin slaughtered and less and less future.

Not a fan of spike hunts, but they are effective just not as good as could be done i think.

If there were a way to break up the tags to certain ages or bulls, ex: spikes and two points, three and four points, and five points finally. Maybe having a seperate season for all and on a lottery system that involved nothing but luck, no points no seniority just luck. Go to a five day season and squeeze them all in during october and push the deer hunt back a week or so. Im no expert but to me what this does, is, with some intelligence involved evens out the kill over all ages of bulls allows more tags to be issued and, if your lucky gives you an opportunity at a decent bull.

The CO's would have a tougher time for sure but with seperate seasons it wouldnt be impossible. Guys couldnt take a five point in a spike and two point season, too obvious the biggest problem would be spike hunters waitin for the five point season to sneak one. Stiffer penalties and enforcement of these laws would deter most, and some good game checking stations could possibly handle the problem.

Like i said im no expert but too me it does seem like a feasible possibility and with some promising results.

Wildlife population control specialist

 

[bragabit]

BBB,
I actually like idea of the management hunt. I am dissapointed they gave up on it so soon. Having the hunt the first week in Oct. when they will have the spike hunt would be alot more effective. Than mid Nov. I would have like them to use dedicated hunter hours to help people find the older 5's . I would have loved to help. It would help to move bonus points also.

 

[inline]

The division has a history of not giving a plan time to even make a difference or collect enough data to make an educated decision.

Take out more than you brought in!

 

[JakeH]

>>>>"""True if they kill the bulls that they are supposed to the threes fours and fives then its a hunky dory and jim dandy hunt and great idea. The prob is they werent, they were killin off the broken up mature bulls. So instead of it bein a management hunt it was a trophy hunt for a broken bull that met the criteria. change this hunt to an earlier date and you might have better success but it still doesnt do the job its supposed to cause what bull are you gonnna hunt for?? the five point, its sheerly human to want the biggest you can get. So instead of spikes gettin killed you have up and coming mature bulls gettin slaughtered and less and less future.

Not a fan of spike hunts, but they are effective just not as good as could be done i think."""<<<<

Berry, you said "so instead of spikes getting killed killed you have up and comeing mature bulls getting slaughtered and less and less future."

What do you think a spike is, its an up and comeing mature bull thats getting slautered. I agree they sould move the managment hunt up, (I think they should have it at the same time as the sept rifle hunt) Its better to move people through the system and still accomplish the end goal, than have a sh!t load of spike hunters that dose nothing for the points system.


You know what maybe they should have all of the above, BUT set specific numbers for each one, obivosly the bull to cow ratio is out of wack and they need to get it in check by killing a few more bulls, they should give out there big bull tags, give out a few managment bull tags, and give out a few spike bull tags, But they need to allot a set number of tags for each. You dont have control if you let people go where ever they want to go.

There is a way that they can do this if they try, but I dont think they are putting in the effort to get it right wiich is sad.

Thats my oppion.


Jake H. MM Member since 1999.

 

[bragabit]

So tell me this, how can they only be killing off the mature broken bulls during the management hunt. Yet, the average age of bulls killed on the management hunt is around 4 years old. A four year old is not very mature in my opinion.

 

[Cam@strawberry]

Sorry jake i shoulda elaborated a little more. The point of that idea was not to kill off a full generation of bulls like spikes or the five points it was to space it out. Take half the spikes the twos three's four's and five's. This makes for more tags and a better bull to cow ratio but instead of 10-20% of just the spikes makin it thru to the next year. you have about half of the bulls in place makin it.

Like i said im no expert but just an idea. Im one of those back seat biologists thats thinks they know better than the educated individuals lol

Wildlife population control specialist

 

[rodsroost]

I agree with you inline.Dont know for sure but be willing to bet that the spike hunt too will be gone in a couple of years,dont want to fight,just my thought.(ROD)

 

[Daxter]

Whether you kill the bull as a spike or as a branch antlered bull shouldn't matter if your goal is to balance the bull to cow ratios on a unit. The management bull tags had several benefits, they helped with point creep and pulled applicants out of the trophy bull pool. Also, the tag numbers could be managed on a unit by unit basis, unlike the spike hunt that theoretically could allow all 12,500 spike hunters to hunt one unit, maybe the Monroe BBB?! I liked the management bull hunt, but it was the uber-trophy oriented public and several vocal opponents (some on the RAC's and Board) that felt they weren't working because "genetically inferior" animals weren't targeted like they had hoped. Now the bulls will be removed as spikes. The spike hunt will give lots of opportunity, but is harder to control on individual units. People had such a hard time with 2-4 year old bulls being shot with management tags, but you have to realize that even 400" bulls may have been a spike at one time too. Now spike hunting can take the fall for years of elk management that was geared towards producing huge bulls and didn't address long term sustainability or herd health.

 

[swbuckmaster]

BBB and Jon get it. I just can't see why the rest of you don't.

When it comes to the bulls in a bull to cow ratio it doesn't matter if you kill them when they are spikes or when they are young 3-4 year old bulls. If you want to fix or minimize the problem with people killing a broken bull than move the hunt earlier in the season.

The reason a management hunt works better than a lame spike hunt is.
1. It gets people through the point system butt plug.
2. People have to use their points and they get to decide if they want to kill a 5x6 or 5x5.
3. Some people will ultimately decide if they only want to kill a trophy and then it takes longer for them to draw but it is their choice.
4. We already had enough spike hunts, cow hunts, doe hunts, cow moose hunts for people to want to hunt for meat we don't need anymore of them. So let the guys that have points for elk actually have a chance to hunt them some day.


The only real difference between a spike bull and a management bull is you had to use your points and the other you stole from the point pool before it got a chance to become someone?s trophy.




Archery is a year round commitment!!

 

[Cam@strawberry]

Oh i get it SW but killin spikes is not the answer look at the wasatch that ought to be proof enough its a great unit, but the chances of killin a B&C bull is much less than on say the san juan, SW Desert, or Pahvant. Management hunts wont work that late in the year for obvious reasons. Even if they are moved up to an earlier date its a race to kill all of the five points right?? break it up thru the whole herd thru all the ages give more tags, and yet maintain a better bull to cow ratio because there is more all around opportunity.

I just cant understand how killing one certain age of bull is gonna help maintain a bull to cow ratio because it leaves the rest of the bulls in place. Its a CO's worst nightmare but it does seem more rational to me.

Wildlife population control specialist

 

[proutdoors]

The problem with using the 'averages' for the management is they only have ONE years data. And that ONE year was when you got to keep your points if you killed a 'legal' bull. I called this morning, they STILL don't have the numbers for the management bulls killed in 2008, so how do we know how effective the idea was? Talk about a knee jerk reaction from the DWR.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.

 

[gznokes]

Ok, I'm going to weigh in with an idea I haven't totally thought through. I'll probably get roasted but I'll throw it out anyway.

Has the DWR thought about allowing people to use their bonus points for a spike hunt? If there was a spike hunt with very high success--maybe even in the late season when the snow is flying, I could see some people being willing to burn a couple points. The benefit would be a lot of people having to wait 5 years to reapply. The downside would be more people going into the deer and antelope draws.

 

[out4elk]

+1 Brag

There is no way I would kill a spike elk in most of the places I saw them on the Dutton the last two years. Just not worth it.

I have also passed a good handful of spikes on the Manti in years past because I didn't want to deal with a SPIKE in that area.

Spike elk might be young uns but they are seldom stupid, they know how to lessen the odds of getting shot nearly as well as the old ones.

?Here?s to the hero's that Git-R-Done!!?