Ending landowner tag abuse

M

m_freeman

Active Member
Messages
410
Why does a connected and protected firm and private party get to sell a public asset? The land owner tags should be in with the rest of the public tags as it is a public asset being hunted. The public interest in the asset on the private property needs to be fairly considered in the solution for the trespass fee. The way it is now, ripoff the public, hoooray for the salesman and the landowner, just not right. Has this issue of public interest being sold by private persons ever been tested in the courts? If you go to a National Park and take photos for postcards you have to compensate the public because you are utilizing a public asset. I think we could change this situation for the better with a couple of strategic lawsuits.
If the landowner doesn't want to participate in some kind of *fair* trespass compensation great. In a few years the landowner will be asking DFG to create cull hunts. If anyone knows of legal precedent on this issue please post.
 
Now correct me if I'm wrong. I am under the impression that the Landowner tags (at least here in NV) are given to the Landowner to sell (or do what they want with them i.e. use them themselves, burn them, give them away?) to compensate for the public?s animal feeding on their cultivated property. I believe it is a way for the landowner to cover the loss/damage of crops caused by the Public?s animals.

With that said, I have no problem with the landowner tags here in Nevada.
 
For clarification; Please define a "fair" trespass fee. Will the price be set by YOU? The DWR set price or the landowner market value prices?

Just a thought, but if the landowner sets the trespass fee we would end up without cwmu's and some of the public would be unable to hunt for free. All would pay a fee! I'm pretty sure it will NOT be $20!

Would the "fee" be based from the quality of the animals? Or will it be based solely on what the market will bear?

I will have to be a bit more convinced to sign on to your deal.
Not interested in your program yet. It could be a big can of worms.

Zeke
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-14-11 AT 01:44PM (MST)[p]WHAT AN AZZ!....You want to feed the animals, repair the fences, replace crop loss, pay the property taxes, insurance premiums, etc, etc, etc?

If you don't like the system, buy yourself a ranch and then use the animals/tags however you think is better.

Better yet, lets pay for fences to keep wildlife off private property in the first place,......that should reduce tag costs (?)

EDIT: IN MY OPINION.....you need a solid kick in the nutsack for even suggesting the word "lawsuit" on a hunting forum!


"whackin' a surly bartender ain't much of a crime"
 
NV4Life well, where is the fair compensation? Looks like some of these outfits and owners are making well over $100k per year on selling public assets. So elk and deer eat $100k of shrubs that would otherwise have no value! If the landowner is having a problem with his property it is his responsibilty, put up a fence. The game is not his property it belongs to the public, just like BLM lands belong to the public. Every one of us has to be responsible for our property, but when it comes to land owner tags it's a different story, it's just not right. I would think if the damage was so bad caused by a public asset there would be lawsuits flying at the State. Anyway, I have never heard of a class action suit against the State, Landowners and Outfitters for this practice. Considering the existing legal precedent set on all the other public assets, we stand a good chance to change this to a situation where there are more public tags and still *fairly* compensate landowners.Point being some guy owns 10,000 acres and he is making $200k selling
tags for $5k each, contributing nothing to the public asset other than useless shrubs. Yet the tax paying public can't even get drawn it's just not right.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-14-11 AT 02:02PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jun-14-11 AT 01:58?PM (MST)

let me ask this, why is it that some pay $20.00 to hunt on private land and others pay $6,500.00? If $20.00 is sufficient and I think this is more the reality of it and what I would like to see more of. Fair compensation would be real impact costs. Not the cost of the impact of the game because the property is the responsibility of the owner, if he doesn't want them there then fence it off. What I am suggesting is expanding these $20.00 fee hunts to ALL land owner tags and they be drawn like the rest. Go to Yosemite NP and bring the camera crew see how much you will have to compensate for the use of a public asset! Landowners and outfitters are milking the gravy train big time.
 
"WHAT AN AZZ!...." ha ha, a class action lawsuit would be the perfect way to increase the availble and affordable tags for the public. Like I said the land owner has to be responsible for his own property just everyone else.
 
I don't know of any landowner that is making $100k off landowner tags, though I am only familiar with what goes on in Nevada. At the most I've seen several LO's make ~$30k off of selling several elk tags when they were going for top dollar (9-10k). As far as the damage to the useless "shrubs", I believe alfalfa wouldn't be considered a useless shrub now would it? I know in NV you are only compensated with landowner tags if you have CULTIVATED (look it up in the dictionary) land and the tags are based off of how many "Public Animal's" are counted on your CULTIVATED land. How much time have you spent on active ranch/farm? Ever see the damage a herd of elk can do to fences or fields? But it's an easy fix right...just build a fence out to keep those pesky animals off your property, ever priced out how much it would be to build an 8' fence around a couple 100 acres?
 
m_freeman, can you clarify something for me? When you are saying these places are making 100?s of thousands of dollars off of landowner tags are you talking about landowner/ranches that include guide/outfitting type operations on their land or just the landowner that sells the tags only? Because there is a big difference between the two. If you are talking about an operation that sells package deals and has guaranteed private hunts for X amount of money the tag is only a fraction of the price.
 
So when i feed my cows i feed 50 head 1.5 ton of hay per day. Lets say you have 50 head of elk eating on your feild for 60 days. That comes out to around 90 tons of hay. This year hay is high heard of some cow hay selling for 240.00 a ton the other day. Lets just say the hay is worth 220.00 a ton. That comes out to 19800.00. The state gives you one tag to do what you want with and you sell it for ten to twelve thousand. Still darn near a ten thousand dollar loss. Not making a killing if you ask me.
 
nvthrt - you better take that kind of logic elsewhere. See your one of those greedy ranchers thats using up the public property and taking food away from so many mouths... If it wasn't for you greedy ranchers everyone would be able to draw a tag every year and we would all be able to hunt for free on the land your family has maintained over the years? Why should the public compensate you for feeding OUR Elk or Deer, you should just do it for the warm fuzzy feeling you get when you have to dip into your bank account to cover the loss/damages accrued by the publics animals? And I'm sure you guys don't pay any taxes on those tags you sell; you probably know the secret republican handshake that all the millionaires use with the IRS that lets you gets away with not paying taxes?
 
this is a classic case of someone being jealous of the people that have money to buy these tags and they themselves can't. These animals belong to the state. The state has raised property taxes to a point where a lot of family ranches can't afford them. Guess what happens? The family has to sell the ranch to a developer to releave themselves of the financle burden that the place has become.

So you would want to file a lawsuit to make these ranchers pay the state taxes on the property, then pay to feed the state's animals too? Can't you see that everyone would lose in that situation. I know a couple difference ranch owners and they only use the money from thier landowner tags to help pay the cost of the property tax and it still doesn't cover all of them.

As far as the landowners using the tag brokers....can you blame them? They are not salesman/marketing gurus who want to spend thier time posting adds and getting calls at 11:00pm from some random person.

Let the ranchers feed the deer and elk in the winter for us. The feed on thier fields is what really helps when the winters are bad. And yes, they should be able to get something for doing so..


oakbrush
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-14-11 AT 04:35PM (MST)[p]really the thing to do is take all this into a courtroom and have a look at the facts, make it right. So I guess no one around here knows if this is settled law?

"this is a classic case of someone being jealous of the people that have money to buy these tags and they themselves can't."

that's an assumption! Just not right that the public has to pay trespass fees to get to their own landlocked lands and I am sure in many cases, there is more than fair compensation to landowners.
 
If you are feeding 1.5 ton a day off your feilds NV you have alot more land than you are saying and i bet its alot more than just one landowner tag that you are getting!

If a landowner gets 4-5 tags a year sell them for X amout of cash why dont they put all that money into building a fence around what they are getting the tags for? PROBLEM SOLVED!
 
Common sense would tell you that there would have to be some form of legal document between the state and the ranchers. And I believe that would be a hard fought case to try to step between them with some sort of "raping the public by profiting of our animals/deer tags for everyone/public access to private land" case.

Don't forget that a lot of these ranches have been around longer then there have been laws on the books.
 
4-5 tags a year would be a big big ranch. I know the biggest ranches in ely get maybe 2-3 a year, and the price of those is in the gutter now-a-days.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Jun-14-11
>AT 04:35?PM (MST)
>
>really the thing to do is
>take all this into a
>courtroom and have a look
>at the facts, make it
>right. So I guess no
>one around here knows if
>this is settled law?
>
>"this is a classic case of
>someone being jealous of the
>people that have money to
>buy these tags and they
>themselves can't."
>
>that's an assumption! Just not right
>that the public has to
>pay trespass fees to get
>to their own landlocked lands
>and I am sure in
>many cases, there is more
>than fair compensation to landowners.


Now landlocking public land is a whole other issue. Wasn't your origional post on LO tags? Because your response to mine has nothing to do with my "assumption" Have you switched topics halfway through the argument? I thought only my wife could do that.

oakbrush
 
I think we should simply all start suing everyone...... oh, we already do that! LMAO

We all know a few landowners. If you push too hard, they'll just close the doors to everyone but their private quests. This will exclude you in every way, shape and form.

Bad ideas springeth forth from time to time. This is one of those times.

Zeke
 
In Kali, some landowners get landowner tags, but there is a hitch. The landowner has to maintain and improve the habitat on their land for wildlife. It's kind of a way for F&G to manage habitat. It's a heck of a good deal IMO. Otherwise some landowners could care less about wildlife habitat. We need all the good wildlife land we can hang onto.

How good would the hunting be if the landowner just plowed it all under? Or burned all the underbrush and planted pine trees?

Eel
 
If you dont want the elk feeding in your fields there are ways of keeping them out,but your not going to do that ARE YOU?
 
>If you are feeding 1.5 ton
>a day off your feilds
>NV you have alot more
>land than you are saying
>and i bet its alot
>more than just one landowner
>tag that you are getting!

I was just going off the feed 50 head of cows go through because 50 is how many animals it takes to get a tag in nevada. The tags are gave out by the number of wildlife in your field when the dow comes to count here in nevada anyway. The more animals eating the more the damage so more tags to sell. But more tags means there was more amimals doing more damage so the cost of the damage goes up too. As for me i don't have any using my property so i don't need to worry about it. But if i did i would want some kind of compensation.
 
Wow, that's all I have to say. Your preception of the facts and the true reality of the landowner tag system is certainly skewed. If you look at the Colorado statistics and how many tags are available to the Priority Landowner Draw you would retract from your stance on the whole system. It typically takes landowners in Colorado longer to draw LOV's than it does for a non-resident to draw, bet you didn't know that..... Back off the landowners, they are allowed a percentage as well.

Robert
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-14-11 AT 06:42PM (MST)[p]How about free tags for those not lucky enough to inherit big chunks of land covered with elk/deer,when do those come out?
 
For some reason I always felt the Land Owner tags should have two specific rules.

1-Unit wide if the landowner keeps the tag for himself.

2-Ranch property only if he sells the tag.

Reason for 1 is most guys cannot even hunt as it takes a long time to draw a tag in their home unit and this way they could hunt yearly.

Reason for 2 is that if the tag is for compensation from wildlife using their prperty---then let the sale of the tag be for getting the animals off the property --- kind of like a 2 f'er....money raise from the sale + compensation and having the hunt with in the ranch boudaries to help run the wildlife back onto public ground like depredation hunts do now..

Robb
 
Fencing off land and making it unavailable to the game isn't a very good solution.....Duh! Any system gets abused...but giving landowners a financial reason to make their land game friendly is a good idea. As far as making them good only on the land...often the animals don't come there till after the season... I suppose you could raise license prices and compensate with money, rather than tags to sell, but think enough people want to raise prices that much?
 
Mfreeman. If you want to jerk landowners around we can kiss hunting Bucks private property goodbye and the DWR will resort to whacking Doe's for crop loss to the landowner. Holy hell this has to be one of the top stupidest ideas ever posted. Sue property owners? Yah that will get our deer population somewhere in about ten thousand years. I guess your all for whackin a $hitload of Doe's. Why are some tags more than others? A well you see there's a thing called big bucks and little bucks big bucks require more cash! Little bucks not so sought after it's like comparing a Saturn to a Beamer which one costs more?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-15-11 AT 12:07PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jun-15-11 AT 12:06?PM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Jun-15-11 AT 12:05?PM (MST)

>Mfreeman. If you want to jerk
>landowners around we can kiss
>hunting Bucks private property goodbye
>and the DWR will resort
>to whacking Doe's for crop
>loss to the landowner. Holy
>hell this has to be
>one of the top stupidest
>ideas ever posted. Sue property
>owners? Yah that will get
>our deer population somewhere in
>about ten thousand years. I
>guess your all for whackin
>a $hitload of Doe's. Why
>are some tags more than
>others? A well you see
>there's a thing called big
>bucks and little bucks big
>bucks require more cash! Little
>bucks not so sought after
>it's like comparing a Saturn
>to a Beamer which one
>costs more?
privatize and we will have plenty of bucks.

Lowcountry you miss my point entirely. The idea is to not pick on landowners but to bring some kind of eguity to the situation and I think in a court with all the info on the table this could be done. If landowners that are responsible for their own land and they take a business risk when buying a ranch are indeed being abused, then fine, compensate them, if the previously mentioned conditions are considered. On the other hand average Joe Public is not getting fair access to the landowner tags. I think the landowner tags should be the same price and same opportunity to draw as all the other tags. The reason why, and this is important, is because the game is a public asset, just like BLM lands and NP. Try and make a film in a NP and see how much you have to compensate the Public. Not sure exactly how AZ is set up, I do know they have ranches there and I don't see brokers making six figures a year selling public assets in AZ. My agenda is not against any group in particular, it is fair access to public assets for the Public. Someone mentioned loss of herds the solution for that is privatization. Since there is such a demand and market for trophies, just look at some of those fees, and if the wildlife is such a problem then privatize viable situations. I don't think a State Legislature or the back room of a Game Commissioners Office is an honest and fair venue to review all the facts. There is one guy out there selling landowner tags with the sales pitch, "this tag will get you into thousands of acres of landlocked public lands". It's just not right.
 
There you go talking about restricting access to public land, which is a completely different issue all together.

You are saying they are abusing public assets, what about the public animals abusing the rancher?s assets? Double edged sword?

How many landowner tags do you think these ranches are getting? Do you think the public would be happy with having several more tags available in the draw? Do you think the ranchers will be happy to have to let people to access THEIR property for such a small fee? Have you ever seen how people treat public property? Let alone private land that isn't their own and only had to pay a small fee to enter? Do you think the Ranchers will want to deal with the mess and hassle of more people on their property that don't have any respect because it's not theirs? One way to guarantee you keep out the trash is have higher prices, this is a proven fact.

It is simple, landowner tags are there to compensate for damage/crop loss caused by the public animals. This is an agreement between the state and the landowners. It is up to the landowner to set the price (market value) or do whatever they want with them. The value the state gets out of this deal is cultivated and maintained habitat (fields, waterholes, etc?) for the public?s animals, do you understand how much this helps the herds in droughts and harsh winters?

Like someone stated earlier, the gov is harsh on ranches in today?s green, liberal society. The hoops ranches have to jump through today are getting crazy and pretty soon they are going to have to weigh their options and possibly sell the land to developers. Then what happens to the access to the land, what happens to the habitat when houses are built on it, can't hunt in residential areas now can you? So now you went from some access for a price, to not being able to hunt at all.

So keep pushing the Landowners they will restrict all access to their lands (except family and friends) and you will be out opportunity.
 
>There you go talking about restricting
>access to public land, which
>is a completely different issue
>all together.
>
No, No, you didn't read the entire post, there are brokers selling land owner tags "as access to thousands of acres of landlocked public lands". They are indeed on the same table for discussion because they are using the land owner tag.

It's the responsibility of property owners to care for their own land and when operating a business, they take on the risk.
AZ seems to be doing quite well without brokers using public assets to sell access to public lands and private landowners benefitting from public assets. Maybe ranchers could prove that they are providing more than 50% of the support for a herd of wildlife then that herd can become the private property of the rancher, then he can have all the private hunts he wants. Private property, private herds, private regulations as well, fine with me. Just keep the public and private seperate and when it comes to public assets let the public have equal access. If they privatize herds we will have much more opportunities to hunt.
 
EVILNR - your right landowner tags are an entitlement program of sorts. The Landowners have a contract with the state that says they are ENTITLED to fair compensation for having X amount of public animals on their cultivated ground.

I have a feeling that if the landowners weren't allowed to sell the tags nobody would have any issues. But because the landowners are able to sell the tags legaly the people who can't afford to buy landowner tags will always cry foul; "Its not fair because they can afford the luxury and I can't"..."I know lets sue, then we'll show those greedy ranchers and landowner tag buyers." Haves vs Have Nots...clear as day.

If you have a problem with the way some of the brokers are selling the tags or blocking public access thats fine. But the system works and landowner tags have their place and aren't going anywhere soon.
 
If the animals truly belong to the state, they should be offered to the public as the rest are. Just because I own a bunch of land doesnt entitle me to freebies. I feel the same for farm subsidies, If you're in the corn or cattle business, doesnt matter. You know there are risks, you know the weather may not cooperate and the elk may eat your hay. Deal with it!!! Ranchers are more than compensated by the ridiculous grazing rights they get, amd what about all the vegetation the cattle take away from the state (public's) wildlife?. I wish I could lease hunting rights for the same sweet deal ranchers get for grazing their cattle.
It's an absolute crime.
Gimme a break!!!
 
m-freeman,
I see your point, however, I think you're off-base with this whole line of thinking. The landowners need this type in incentive to keep the game on their land! If we remove the incentive, the populations will decline, thus, affection the contiguous public property as well.
The net "gain", in your line of thinking, would be fewer tags for all... forever! I can't wrap my brain around what the gain would be..... except fot the attorneys!

Respectfully,
Zeke
 
freeman. ther is no landowner abuse with out cwmu which i am guessing your refering to is on private land without it you would not have a shot at hunting it. get over it thats how it is. i dont blame them for it, would you want someone coming all over your property and doing as they pleae? landwowners owe you nothing and i think it pretty fair that the cwmu program works like it does it give people a chance to hunt otherwise locked ourt property to only a select few just get over it
 
>We're turning into Europe.

Not until the Feds sell off about 99% of the public property!

Private property does lock some out, no doubt, but it also can provide great hunting for the average joe like me. Look at Kansas, it's all private and I've been able to hunt there for little or no money! Same goes for some spots in Wyo and MT.

Just a thought,
Zeke
 
Are there LO's who abuse the system?Sure there are! However, I believe the bulk of them are rightly compensated for feeding a public land resource. We could pay them in cash for crop damage, but that would cost sportsman exponentially. We could build big fences or start a class action law suit but we all know sportsman and wildlife would come out on the losing side. Giving LO's a public resource like LO tags to sell for reimbursment is a win win solution. Deer and Elk are struggling as it is. The last thing we need to do is piss off the LO's and have them retailiate by whack'n and stack'n trophy deer and elk in December like cord wood. This issue has been batted around for a decade with no better solutions than the current one. I think LO tags will be around for quite awhile!
 
>Are there LO's who abuse the
>system?Sure there are! However, I
>believe the bulk of them
>are rightly compensated for feeding
>a public land resource. We
>could pay them in cash
>for crop damage, but that
>would cost sportsman exponentially. We
>could build big fences or
>start a class action law
>suit but we all know
>sportsman and wildlife would come
>out on the losing side.
>Giving LO's a public resource
>like LO tags to sell
>for reimbursment is a win
>win solution. Deer and Elk
>are struggling as it is.
>The last thing we need
>to do is piss off
>the LO's and have them
>retailiate by whack'n and stack'n
>trophy deer and elk in
>December like cord wood. This
>issue has been batted around
>for a decade with no
>better solutions than the current
>one. I think LO tags
>will be around for quite
>awhile!


actually if the LO privatized the herds on their land the herds would do better, as with all private property. Just stop screwing average Joe Public.
 
"On the other hand average Joe Public is not getting fair access to the landowner tags. I think the landowner tags should be the same price and same opportunity to draw as all the other tags."

Everything has to be "Fair" gimmie a break...where does it end? Hellooo....this is AMERICA! the greatest free country on the planet. Every person has the same opportunities as the next guy. Whether or not you are willing to apply yourself or blame someone else for your lack of opportunity is your choice. We ALL have the opportunity to purchase these tags if we desire...seems pretty "fair" to me.

Frankly I think the "Greedy Ranchers" do WAY more for the land and wildlife via food and mineral sources, water development, predator control etc. than most of the Average Joe Public, Who think they are somehow OWED something from the fruits of the landowners labors...what a joke.
 
I havent posted here in sometime..but this is way to obvious.

If you dont like the LO tag prices..dont buy them.. It is all supply and demand..

If I wanted to buy one I would find a way to make the money to buy one. But I dont..so I wont.

Dont let the goverment controll everything.

Leave the land owners alone
 
"We ALL have the opportunity to purchase these tags if we desire...seems pretty "fair" to me."

We all have the opportunity to work hard, become successful and buy land too.....I remembner as a kid all you had to remember about hunting private land was leave the gates the way you found them and stay on the roads...... People couldn't even follow those simple requests.... Couple that up with livestock getting mistaken for deer or Elk and a round or two through water tanks or the Farmer / Ranchers wall and you are locked out......Access was always a priveledge, not a right..... No entitlements........ Terry
 
It may come as a shock, but only about 25% of compensated landowners are currently comfortable with the program as it is. And it ain't the money issue alone.

Most of them hate the hassle of HAVING to babysit wildlife thru the winter, regardless of compensation. It is a pain in the azz, altogether!

Dead and frozen elk don't eat the scarce available feed and do little damage to fences.

Reading some of these comments, I don't blame anti hunting landowners at all. THEY OWN THE LAND...

If you wanted to be a farmer or rancher, you should have paid more attention in school.

Or maybe your family should have had the balls to move West and fought for some of the available Western wilderness.

It didn't work out for you? Tough chit! Get over it! Frickin' hankie yankers!

As a disabled Veteran, these issues of trampling on private property owners rights, piss me off big time.

I think you whiners are chickenchit little pussies, whose mantra is, "I don't have to EARN a living, I'll just sue someone for it, till I get what I want!"

By the way, I don't own a square foot of ranchland.

Have a nice day!

"whackin' a surly bartender ain't much of a crime"
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-15-11 AT 07:52PM (MST)[p]So mfreeman since I missed your point entirely you think you have a right to tromp, drive, and piss all over another mans property to hunt a buck. I don't think a court would be so accepting to that ideology. You think that tags should all cost thirty five bucks I'm fine with that but that's utopia. You give that same landowner thirty-five bucks when he normally got 5000 per tag. Where in all this great thinking does the the other 4965 dollars come from again? If it's Joe taxpayer that's utopia too. I have to agree with nickman.
 
When I was younger I had the opportunity to hunt a private ranch. The rancher hated the elk eating his hay so what did he do he allowed all the hunters that wanted to hunt his property do so. Elk would pass through but they wouldn't eat the tons of hay that they are capable of doing. The last couple of years this rancher was alive his sons took over the ranch and closed the ranch to hunting, which they had every right to do. We would still visit this rancher and even hunt the surrounding public land. Guess where the elk would go, to the ranch. So now this ranch had elk eating there hay. The last year I was there I remember sitting on a hill and watching a herd of about 50 elk come out to feed in the fields at night. So to me it seems obvious what ranchers would need to do if they didn't want them there. If they don't mind them there than great just don't expect compensation from the public for that decision.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-16-11 AT 08:13AM (MST)[p]Yep sue those greedy ranchers and farmers, Most states have a law on what those ranchers can do to the wildlife that is causing them problem it having the Fish & Game shoot them or they shoot them,(SD you can shoot them but can't pick them up) But if they aren't making money(like we all try to do) there will be no deer and elk in those fields. Here a idea lets sue everyone who has a business that is charging money for a service because they have to be overcharging us if they are making money from us.

My brothers farm in SD and the problem there is WT deer eating $7 dollar bushels of corn now 3-4 deer isn't bad but a herd of 75 while that a deer of a different color, Those 75 deer would die pretty quick if he was losing 80-100 dollars a day in feed and lost that amount to $100,00 and up now add in all those pheasants,duck,geese.If those farmers and ranchers was feeding these animals WHERE do you think they would be feeding at,Guess we should sue him for protecting his farm and livihood. You want what they have have roll the dice like they did and buy yourself some debt, Hell a section of land sells for around $1.4 million so jump on in there.
This last winter my nephew feed a load of silage to 75 head of deer every week, Now so AZZ would like to sue him because they don't own a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out.
Get a clue.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
I have no problem with a man closing off his land to hunting. I don't buy much of the damage argument because I talked to NM G&F a few years ago and they told me that 80% of the LO cow tags went unused. Cows eat just as much as bulls. If you have no private tags then the rancher that has a problem can open his ranch to hunting and you can bet the problem will be solved. I feel for the landowners that suffer damage from idiot hunters but I think the fence and crop damage issue is overblown.
 
they're raising and selling deer and elk just like they are those black angus. If the damage was that bad they would be begging hunters to shoot them, not selling high dollar tags.
Or, they could just shoot them and let 'em lay. But they wont do that, they're too valuable. I suspect more so than a black angus bull.

Get a clue? yeah, I've got a few clues.
 
So if a piece of Private Property has oil or gold on it...should the owner have to open a gas station or a jewelry shop and give the "assets" away to the public?

"If you're in the corn or cattle business, doesn't matter. You know there are risks, you know the weather may not cooperate and the elk may eat your hay. Deal with it!!!"

You are correct...there are risk! BUTTT on the flip side there are also rewards!!

One should be rewarded for "dealing with it"...giving a landowner a couple tags that they can sell...who cares? The water and feed that they cultivate and supply out of their own pockets benefits the "public property" buck does fawns bulls cows and calve...they all win

What about guides? They are using public property to make a profit, and there is that guy who gives jeep tours on public property...entrepreneurship is great ain't it!!
 
this thred is f**k'n comedy,

the root of all evil is MONEY.....period


"better to go ugly early before the good ugly one's are gone"
 
>this thred is f**k'n comedy,
>
>the root of all evil is
>MONEY.....period
>
>
>"better to go ugly early before
>the good ugly one's are
>gone"

I think it is the love of money. I've never seen my billfold walk off to engage in shenanigins.


4abc76ff29b26fc1.jpg
 
>this thred is f**k'n comedy,
>
>the root of all evil is
>MONEY.....period
>
>
>"better to go ugly early before
>the good ugly one's are
>gone"


I concur! Let's file a lawsuit against money...
 
>>this thred is f**k'n comedy,
>>
>>the root of all evil is
>>MONEY.....period
>>
>>
>>"better to go ugly early before
>>the good ugly one's are
>>gone"
>
>
>I concur! Let's file a lawsuit
>against money...


lets do it,but how???? i gotta go to A.A. in the morn but i'll check back....j/f/w/ya pard.its still funny sh!t imoa
 
Perhaps when you quit nippin the bottle we can come up with a plan ;)

I think it is entertaining as hell...Hypocrisy at its finest...there are thousands of tags and millions of acre available for the public to hunt on...but nope...thats not good enough for some...they want the private property too?...So really? Who are the greedy ones? LOL To each his own I reckon...Cheers!
 
"Who are the Greedy Ones?"

Well I'm not the one getting free tags (which belong to the public) and selling them for thousands$$$$$
Just another form of welfare.

Cheers
 
Not welfare my friend. Solid capitalism. To tromp and piss all over another mans land doing as you please falls more toward socialism since you need your eqaulity which is intertwined with welfare.
 
Being on the gov't dole has nothing to do with capitalism.
quite the contrary actually. Justify it however you want,
you might as well be selling govt welfare cheese.And I never said anything about tromping on private land, only that the tags belonged to the public, not private cattle corporations.
 
Evilnr, how can you compare ranchers to welfare people. Ranchers worker their azzes off from sun up to sun down. I don't know where your from, but I don't see to many welfare cases doing anything other than whine and sit around all day. Sounds like you might be a welfare case.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-17-11 AT 10:38AM (MST)[p]There will always be "have's" & "have-nots". Some of the "have-nots" are the ones who will spend all their time whining about the "have's" and mis-quoting money issues to make themselves feel better.

"The LOVE of money is the root of all evil"..... whether you have money or not!

I see a bunch of folks without money who definately love it too much! Actually, some of the folks without money love it the most. Therein lies the problem. Worrying about hunting on someone elses land is just a manifestation of an age-old problem.

There's my 2 cents for free! Don't we all feel better?

Zeke

edit; damn spelling!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-17-11 AT 10:49AM (MST)[p]Let's do this throughout this thread. Replace the word "Land" with the word "money"

as in; He has some "money" and I don't! I want to use his "money"! It's not fair that the rancher makes money from his "money".

It's a classic case of "He has it and I want it! If I can't have it I'll sue"

Some of you kids need to grow up and grow a pair!

Love, Zeke

PS; NO! I don't own a ranch but I have a brain!
 
My family owns 2 ranch's and i still think its BS,wtf should we be given something because we already have something?
 
Who gets to decide what's fair? Me? You? Them?

As long as they don't mess with me they can do whatever they want to do with the critters on their ranch. Maybe I'll get off my azz, get to work, make some money and buy their ranch (or at least hunt on it). Oh.....you still can't hunt it!

Sorry but this is America, the home of the free, where we can buy things and call them our own and other folks can't have them!

BS you say? I don't think so. Sorry nonyamt but that's life. Enjoy it.

Zeke
 
Here's an idea; lets all head over to m_freeman's place, give him a couple bucks, eat him out of house and home, settle down in the backyard and have a big bbque, leave our trash and beer cans everywhere make sure we drive through said such back yard and tear it up good, make as many trails through his house as we can, them maybe just maybe he'll understand why some private landowners just don't want visitors.
 
So evilnr you think they should not have the tag. Ok fine then they will start to piss and moan about the deer eating their and it is their cattle forage I.e. Private land. Then the dwr starts a doe shoot to appease the landowner what part dont you get? Keep em happy with a few $5000 tags for a buck tag to offset their loss.
 
I will say I liked it better before the CWMU days. The dates were equal and logistically they did not have two months of time to space out guided hunts. Trespass hunts were much more affordable. The CWMU days brought a pretty lopsided cost benefit factor in favor of the landowner no question about it. On the other side of the coin, if you're lucky enough to draw one of the 15% public tags you're getting a pretty good deal too.
4abc76ff29b26fc1.jpg
 
Bottom line is whether it's a block of cheese or an elk tag its WELFARE, as in FREE FROM the GOVT!!!!!!!!! It's wrong!!!!!!
All tags should go into the draw, period. If a ranch wants to sell guided hunts or tresspass fees then so be it. Thats capitalism. Not selling free tags/cheese, thats just plain theft!!!
And what's up with Zekester thinking we who dont agree with giving freebies to private entities dont have anything? Do your research Zeke!!! I'm done with this post as I have a brown bear hunt to prepare for.

Reap it!
 
>Evilnr, how can you compare ranchers
>to welfare people. Ranchers worker
>their azzes off from sun
>up to sun down. I
>don't know where your from,
>but I don't see to
>many welfare cases doing anything
>other than whine and sit
>around all day. Sounds
>like you might be a
>welfare case.
Most ranchers/farmers I know are constantly looking for a handout,govt subsidies,ect.
 
+1 And this is especially true in Nevada. Unbelieveable how much product gets chewed up every year.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-17-11 AT 06:53PM (MST)[p]EVILNR, I have enjoyed the sparring concerning the subject of Land Owner Vouchers. Know that you are busy preparing for the bear hunt but please take some time out and educate me about how the system works for cattlemen in Colorado..... I mean how do they draw U.S. Government subsidies for raising beef cattle? Do hog farmers get this money? What about horse ranch operators? Just wondering how the system works concerning ranchers getting U.S. Gov't money for raising cattle? I am sure you are correct because you wouldn't have said it if it wasn't true. Please explain the system. Thanks, Cowtag
 
70% of the replies on this discussion missed my point entirely, hope they shoot better than their reading comprehension is :D
 
'YO -COW

If you would re-read my posts you will see I was also referring to farmers in general, ie; corn,wheat,whatever.
and let's not get started on ethanol.


Never once said a cattle rancher got subsidized, at least not the same way as a dirt farmer. But I really dont see much difference in the two. Free elk,lope,deer tags are just another subsidy when you really get down to it. Wouldnt you say?
The only difference I see is having to go to the trouble of converting that tag to cash.

I see no justification for free hand-outs just because someone owns land. It all comes down to money, politics,
padded wallets, scratch my back, etc.....In the meantime
Avg Joe hunter loses out.

I have nothing but respect for farmers/ranchers. thank you all
for the food you all provide.But the hand outs are just wrong.
Also, nobody would be in the cattle or corn business if it wasnt
profitable. And what other business can I get paid not to farm?
(CRP)?

Am I wrong when I suggested that a Bull elk tag was probably worth more than the typical Angus bull ready for slaughter?
Or maybe a mule deer tag there in Colorado.

I havent heard one farmer/rancher on here willing to say that they derive significant income, or that its not at least a sweet deal, to receive free tags from the state and sell them.
I mean the tag is free, and the animals are wild and pretty0 much take care of themselves. The net gain has to be triple that of a dumb-arse steer. The best I ever got was $1250.00
for a 1200lb charolais.

I'm through rambling , dual survival is on, I'm gone, done!!!

No hard feelings towards ANYONE, just stating my opinions,

Oh, dont mess with me man. I eat raw pop tarts before daylight.
 
EVILNR, thank you for the prompt reply. Well said. Appreciate your explanation. I understand about the CRP, subsidies to cropland farmers/ranchers, and other $ deals in that department. Just was wondering if beef farmers/ranchers got $ like cropland farmers receive. I was not messing you one bit and thanks for the straight answer. I plan on using the ole smoke pole rifle this September sommers in Colorado. Cowtag
 
"Never argue with a fool, they will always win,they will drag you down to their level and beat ya with experience"

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
Good luck Cowtag. I hope to make it out to CO. one day for a mulie. I might even do it with patch/roundball.
 
>Hey nonya, Your family get their
>handout? mtmuley
We all WORK for a living,the ranching brings enough money to keep the property taxs paid.Did your family get their handout?AKA Welfare check?
 
NONYA is a funny guy. No welfare here. I just wondered how you know most farmers and ranchers are constantly looking for a handout of some sort. If they are in your part of the country, just figured maybe you were looking too. I find quite the contrary to be true in these parts. Although you've assured me the Root is full of liars, rich pricks and $hit talkers. My family farms on the Hi-Line. No handouts asked for up there either. Too many beers before posting NONYA? mtmuley
 
Cool enough. Lets go back to 1960.

Don't pay ranchers and farmers for any damage. Bullets are the cheapest form of control. Shoot a cow with a fresh calf and you eliminate 2 animals.

Shoot a bull in the nutsack with a shotgun, and even if it don't die, it won't make any more calves.

That's how it worked back when and my guess is that, in some places it still does.

Crop loss and fence damage is easy to just blow off, especially if it ain't "your ox that is being gored"!

Applies to wild horses also.

"whackin' a surly bartender ain't much of a crime"
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-18-11 AT 11:43PM (MST)[p]>NONYA is a funny guy. No
>welfare here. I just wondered
>how you know most farmers
>and ranchers are constantly looking
>for a handout of some
>sort. If they are in
>your part of the country,
>just figured maybe you were
>looking too. I find quite
>the contrary to be true
>in these parts. Although you've
>assured me the Root is
>full of liars, rich pricks
>and $hit talkers. My family
>farms on the Hi-Line. No
>handouts asked for up there
>either. Too many beers before
>posting NONYA? mtmuley
A farmer on the highline that doesn't receive some form of govt subsidies like getting paid NOT to farm or put crop land into CRP?What do they farm Marijuana?Must be the same crap your smoking!You better check again,whether its a straight up govt check or a tax credit they are getting some form of Govt handout,thats how farming works these days.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-19-11 AT 00:06AM (MST)[p]I guess you haven't heard that the CRP program is losing more land (huge amounts)due to Corn and Wheat prices,so soon you wouldn't have to worry about the GOOD that the crp program has done for wildlife that use the same great habitat. Do you think getting $58 a acre to not plant say 300 ac $58 X 300= $174,000,tell me how that beats beats 100 bushels of corn a acre at $7 a bushel 100 X 300 =300,00 bushel X $7=$210,00. So now you can see how that farmer is getting rich by enrolling in the crp program right. If the Farmer doesn't give the land a rest, it will burn out and he will have to use more and more chemicals to farm where do you think the runoff ends up.
Sure glad some of you bright shining lights aren't farmers.
Sure can tell who the city boys are. LOL

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-19-11 AT 06:58AM (MST)[p]Gator---There's a lot bigger gap than what you just posted because 300 x $58 = $17,400, which is a substantial difference than if the land was worked in your scenario! I wonder how old Nonya is because he sure has a weird slant on most things when he posts here!!!

Hey Nonya---Are you in your 20s yet? You know you have to be at least into your 20s to be an expert on everything like you seem to try to come across on these Forums, LOL!!!
 
These guys think CRP makes the land payment, They have NO CLUE what it takes to keep the farm/ranch in the black and not owned by the bank like the thousands of homes out there.


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
In my family's case, the farm is owned outright. As are most of the farms in the area that have been owned by the same folks for generations. The people I know bust their ass and live and die by the luck of the draw concerning weather, crop disease etc. You're right Gator, the uninformed think that some farmers are getting rich off of subsidies. While I am sure there is abuse, to make a blanket statement that all farmers have their hand out is assinine. mtmuley
 
A couple thoughts.

m_freeman - you don't really believe that deciding anything in court is a good idea do you? Take a look around. Imagine a jury of your peers deciding this issue. Or better yet some judge, who you have no way of choosing idealogies deciding this (or any issue). There's a crap shoot I don't want any part of. Been there done that too many times.

It is usually easiest to talk the most about an issue which you have no idea what you're talking about. The facts don't mess up your thinking that way. m_fer, nonyamt and evilnr prove this point.

This thread is purely about socialism vs capitalism. Jealousy pure and simple.

nickman - you are a funny man with a lot of great wisdom at times.

NONYAMT, EVILNR, m_fer - please list your occuptions so we can decide if you or your employer (and therefore yourself) are exempt from criticism. I bet not.
 
the reason I think a court would give more justice is because all the facts could be laid out in the open. Some broker selling a land owner tag using the sales pitch, "this tag will get you access to thousands of acres of landlocked public lands" is clearly in violation of the intention of the creation of our public lands and the LO voucher system. The back room of the game commissioners office and the back rooms of the State Legislatures is not a transparent venue. I am not suggesting seeking damages of any kind, just stop the abuses where they occur. I think there is a solution to be found by privatization of the herds if the landowners contribute that much to them.
If the wildlife is a public asset then let the public have a fair shot at getting the tag, otherwise completey privatize the landowner tag system. That means they LO owns the elk/deer herd on his property just like his cattle and he has to be completely responsible for them and he can sell all the hunts he wants at market prices. Why should the public be forced to give up their assets to private firms because they voluntarily chose to contribute to the herds and they don't fence off their land? Everyone else has to be responsible for their own property. In the case of landlocked private lands I think that since the landowners get exclusive use of public lands they should pay for their use, or create an easement for public access. I say keep things seperate public is public private is private. For some reason some of you guys think I am a libtard because I suggest privatizaton and seperation of herd status.
I have been self-employed my entire life I create every single job I get.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-19-11 AT 01:42PM (MST)[p]>If the wildlife is a public
>asset then let the public
>have a fair shot at
>getting the tag, otherwise completey
>privatize the landowner tag system.

Fair shot? You have just as fair of a shot as anyone just go buy a damn tag! Anyone can buy one!!

I can't afford one either but i am not sitting here crying about it!
 
M-Freeman
I just wish the People in NM would quit shooting my federal deer and elk on my federal lands without a federal hunting license,What give The State of NM the right to sell tags and vouchers for the land that not theirs and for the animals that roam on said lands.

I guess it must be the same law that gives landowners the right to sell LO vouchers to hunts for deer and elk that NM calls theirs.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
>M-Freeman
>I just wish the People in
>NM would quit shooting my
>federal deer and elk on
>my federal lands without a
>federal hunting license,What give The
>State of NM the right
>to sell tags and vouchers
>for the land that not
>theirs and for the animals
>that roam on said lands.
>
>
>I guess it must be the
>same law that gives landowners
>the right to sell LO
>vouchers to hunts for deer
>and elk that NM calls
>theirs.
>
>"I have found if you go
>the extra mile it's Never
>crowded".


Yeah, that makes alot of sense.
And I feel more like I do now than I did earlier.
 
I can't believe I read all 96 post in this thread. Every year you see the same basic topic on here. And what I think it comes down to is guys being mad that they didn't draw a tag. Maybe not but i'm not going to argue about it.

On a side note I did read a really good post in this thread.

From TopGun
"Hey Nonya---Are you in your 20s yet? You know you have to be at least into your 20s to be an expert on everything like you seem to try to come across on these Forums, LOL!!!"
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-19-11 AT 06:27PM (MST)[p]It my OPINION,if you cant handle it dont read my posts.You must be real important to be able to tell people they arnt allowed one?BTW nobody said they get rich off subsidies,they have become dependent on them though and they get them in one form or another.
 

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