Fenced or pened animals

[Wantabee]

I am not trying to start a mess here. I was taking with my brother and the topic of fenced animals came up. We started talking about elk, I know that alot of people have a negative attitude about people raising and hunting farmed elk. Then we went to talking about people raising birds, (Phesants, quail, etc.) to hunt-shoot. I have not heard much negitive about raising birds. I have a hard time seeing the difference other than size of animal and cost. I would like to hear a few of your thoughts.

 

[sremim]

birds can fly away. elk can only jump so high.

 

[ismith]

and birds cant breed with wild elk..........

 

[MrB]

The way I see it is there is no difference. Birds can fly, but some pen raised ones don't like to. Just ask some pheasant hunters who have hunted pheasant clubs.

I always hear about farmed or high fence ranches spreading disease, but that is one of the reasons for the fences or pens. to keep the wild stock seperated from raised stock. I'm sure in some cases it protects the farmed stock from natural acuring illnesses that affect the wild stock.

Some make it sound like bird farms that raise their game birds to be released or sold to gun clubs to be a non-issue. These birds can fly away and easily breed with wild ones.

My whole point is always the same. Lets not split hairs, we are preditors, we eat meat, we kill animals, fish and birds if we don't want to be hipocrits we shouldn't complain about others that do the same as long as it is done with conservation in mind.

Sorry I just get very tired of double standards. My own teenaged daughter can't stand the thought of me killing a deer and eating it, but loves McDonalds hamburgers. Wow, you know that hurts me! I am the father of a hipocrit.

Mike

 

[257Tony]

I agree 100%. To me there is no difference between a pen raised Pheasant and a pen raised Elk. You call the Pheasant ranch, tell them you want 25 birds, they let em out of the pen, you go shoot them. Same exact deal with Elk. People hunt Pheasant farms because there is no good public land hunting in their area, some guys do the same on the Elk farms, they cant draw a tag anywhere, so go shoot a pen raised one, take home good meat, a big rack and some good pics. Just dont try and tell me you shot it in the wild and I wont have any problem with you.

 

[ismith]

Wonder why they call pheasants "chinese ringnecked pheasants"?.........maybe because they are native to china and not north america? So yeah, there is a great big diffence. Elk are NOT pheasants, although I dont shoot game farmed birds, which are little more than living clay pigions in my opinion, I dont see a problem with these "pheasant shooting operations". The problem, MRB, is that those pens dont always keep the penned critters contained. The risk of genetic contamination and the spread of disease is to great, responsible hunters should be disgusted that these operations are allowed to exist for the benifit of few, at the risk of all.

 

[Razaboo]

I have a question. What is the genetic difference between the pen raised elk and the wild elk? Aren't they all from North American elk? What about transplants from different parts of the country done by the fish and game?

Stan

 

[ismith]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-18-06 AT 04:38PM (MST)[p]http://www.bcwf.bc.ca/committees/gamefarming/elkprofit.html
http://www.rmef.org/pages/position_game.html

 

[MrB]

Wow! Ismith, so now you are against people that raise elk and let them run free. That is much different than I thought. It sounded like you were against high fenced ranches, now it appears you are just worried about "native animals" that people don't keep contained. You make it sound like the ranchers that raise these elk are idiots, not worried about their animal's genetics or health. The fact is they take very good care (in most cases) to insure their livelyhood is kept safe and away from people that feel the way you do.

Do you have facts that back up your disgust at the danger to the wild elk from these free roaming farm raised ones.

Poachers disgust me, not people killing animals that they paid to raise on their own property. Is it hunting, in some peoples mind it is not, but deffinately not wrong in mine.


Mike

 

[sremim]

Hey MrB,
One of the worst "facts" to the danger of wild elk from free roaminig farm raised ones is CWD. Look up some info on how devastating that disease is and what it is doing to mostly deer herds in a large number of states.

 

[eelgrass]

I don't think I would be totally against a pen raised, high fence wolf hunt.

Steve

 

[Tracker1]

I do not see a difference.

 

[driftersifter]

My thought is this, I think pen raised hunting is not hunting at all. It is shooting by a person not willing to sacrifice either time or energy to get an earned trophy. Whether that trophy is a cow a spike or ar a 6pt bull. Pen raised animals are not earned.
Driftersifter

 

[Dahlmer]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-19-06 AT 08:39AM (MST)[p]MrB please refer to sremim's post. CWD has been linked to pen raised animals. It is one of the biggest concerns going foward for big game animals.

As for the difference between the pen raised birds vs elk, there is really only one. Last I checked there was no B&C or P&Y record book for birds. Seems there is a lot more controversy when a record is at stake.

 

[202typical]

"My whole point is always the same. Lets not split hairs, we are preditors, we eat meat, we kill animals, fish and birds if we don't want to be hipocrits we shouldn't complain about others that do the same as long as it is done with conservation in mind."

Well said MrB

Driftersifter, you have a valip opinion yet I would not bash a guy for this type of hunting.

 

[driftersifter]

I don't feel that I'm a hipocrit and I'm not splitting hairs. there is no conservation in mind when someone shoots a pen raised animal. I feel there is more challenge to shooting barn pigeons than to shoot pen raised pheasants. I understand someone shooting a pen raised elk for food, Just don't tell me you hunted it.
Driftersifter

 

[MrB]

I looked up many articles on CWD. The first documented case of CWD was in 1967. The first case documented on a deer or elk farm wasn't until 1997. There has been nothing decided on or proved as to where or how it started, just many theories and guesses.
It has been found in the wild and on farms. It is very easy to test and quarantine animals on a farm, but impossible to do so in the wild.
You could just say that we don't like these operations. We don't need to blame them for all that threatens our sport. As far as people trying to pass off these animals as B/C entries, that is wrong. To my knowledge there have been many "wild" animals illegally taken and have been attempted to be entered and are probably are as well.
I don't think when I beat my daughter in a basketball game it should carry the same merit that beating someone better than myself. That is common sense. I own some sets of antlers that were given to me that are very impressive, but I didn't work for them. I would guess people that shoot a 400 class elk off a farm just like to be able to look up on the wall and see one every day. What are the chances of killing one in the wild? Just about .01% maybe.

Oh well, I don't think this discussion will end in my lifetime.
By the way, even though when I go hog hunting on our family ranch it's 100%, I still call it hunting.
Mike

 

[sremim]

You better redo some research on those articles about CWD. It came from a penned up elk that got out into the wild. It did not start in the wild and go to penned up animals. And trust me, it was found in farmed animals well before 1997.

 

[MrB]

http://www.cwd-info.org/index.php/fuseaction/about.faqDetail/ID/ed313ea17872d4dc90aedf94b341f0cc


This is one of many that reads the same, but maybe they are all wrong and you are right!
Mike

 

[sremim]

I'm not saying they are wrong, however I spent two years working exclusively on the testing and research for CWD in northern CO and WY. Why don't you call some of these researchers that actually do the research and have them tell you all about it.

 

[hntnhrd]

You could call 50 people "involved" in CWD research and get 50 different answers. CWD is in whitetail populations call the state of Wisconsin. They panicked and decemated three counties worth of population. Colorado has CWD in elk zones where they have done nothing that still hold thousands of elk. I have read quite a bit about this subject and nothing is set in stone on the facts of CWD. Was it first on the scene in 1967 or did we finally have the technology to discover it after it had been in wild herds for the past couple hundred years?
The biggest question is that we are divided on the hunting behind a high fence issue. The biggest danger is that we as hunters are voting against fellow hunters on this issue. The comments that" Killing animals behind a high fence hurts the image of hunting and hunters", sounds way to much like anti-hunting babble to me. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean the next guy shouldn't be allowed to do it. If you don't like bear hunting with dogs don't side with the anti's by outlawing it. We as a hunting communtiy need to look at the big picture before we jump on the small issue band wagon.

 

[B_F_E]

Simular question, as per finding female companionship...

Go to a bar & try to score,
or save time & get a hooker ?

simular costs yet consider;
Hooker may have better B&C measurements,
but the D.I.Y. hunt, is considered fair chase.

 

[BowHuntr]

The whole point of someone bringing up CWD as an issue, is because it originated via pen raised animals. So, yes pen raised animals do pose a risk, no matter how much someone tells you they don't. There are still a lot of unknowns when it comes to CWD, but it definitely is the most previlent in deer populations.

To me hunting is when you devote time and energy into WILD animals. Being out in the mountains, whether it's on foot (my preference) or in a truck, or on an annoying ATV. It's not spending money to shoot a pretty much "tame" animal. They should come up with a different name for it, not hunting.

BowHuntr

 

[B_F_E]

Yet another similarity tween pen raised animals & hookers.
They don't got CWD, however contribute all the same with STD.

 

[Pre64]

The difference is largely in the perception. This image of a majestic elk trying to escape the evil hunter, but can't because he is enclosed, draws much more ire than an area stocked with pen raised birds. So, it pisses more people off.

Does this mean that the hatchery raised salmon and steelhead I catch don't count because I wasn't really fishing???

Does this mean that game ranchers are really pimps?