Hate Wealth tags? - Vote with your dollars

LAST EDITED ON Jul-28-12 AT 12:41PM (MST)[p]"I know I had four wild elk come in last year from areas that aren't on your list there. I can guarantee you there are more elk in west texas now than there have been since statewide deregulation"

***Boy that sure shows that the elk are booming all over Texas, LOL! Yep, there are a few elk spread out all over and most of them have escaped from high fenced places like the small bunch I saw several years ago on my buddie's ranch that adjoins one near Rock Springs. Again, if there were so many all over the state and Texas considered them a game animal to make a profit from, it's funny they don't have a season on them, but instead consider them exotics to be shot year around for a minimal license fee, just like the fee charged to hunt hogs, etc., on private property.


"Looks like they produce revenue for wildlife, and projects for sportsmen if you ask me. Looks like they do more with less than any government agency could pull off. KETTLE MEET THE CRYSTAL!!
Come on its time for a little honesty. You can go buy an over the counter tag and go hunting. SFW won't stop you from doing that. So what is it you want? Please respond with an honest answer."

***They do get some revenue from those tags and there are projects for sportsmen. However, projects can be and are done all over the country by volunteers using their own resources without selling tags to the wealthy. How can you make the statement that they do more with less than a government agency when they won't even open their books for anyone to see what's going where? Answer---You can't and it's just another supposition on your part like everything else you're spouting. Add that to the tags taken from the draw and raffled off with the proceeds not even having to be accounted for and it's a pure crime. With your thinking, if your taxidermy businees starts to falter, just call Don Peay up and I'm sure he will have a nice postion for a person of your ilk!
 
"Again, if there were so many all over the state and Texas considered them a game animal to make a profit from, it's funny they don't have a season on them, but instead consider them exotics to be shot year around for a minimal license fee, just like the fee charged to hunt hogs, etc., on private property."

I think you missed the point. Texas does not consider them a game animal. Its funny that you brought up the pigs because they aren't a game animal either and their numbers are growing. Funny how critters do so well once decisions for their management are taken out of the state's hands. By the way the elk didn't come from Rocksprings. They came from a 608 section ranch way west of there that has never had a high fence on it. But I must be lying because the website didn't mention them.
 
"Come on its time for a little honesty. You can go buy an over the counter tag and go hunting. SFW won't stop you from doing that. So what is it you want? Please respond with an honest answer."

Wanna bet!!! I'm 47 have hunted deer since I was 16. Since 94 I've hunted exclusively with a bow. I don't have a deer tag this year for the first time. SFW and one family played a MAJOR role in this.

Wealth tags bring wealth tag management which is ANYTHING BUT SCIENTIFIC. Why do ya think most will wait upwards of 20 years to hunt a mature bull in Utah?? With all the habitat monies going on the ground why has Utah lost 70% of its deer hunters since these tags came in to effect?? Why??

So what do I want?? Good question. I want everybody to play by the same rules weather you have $100.00 in the bank or $1,000,000.00 in the bank. I want my herds managed by winter carrying capacity, and herd populations, not by inches of antler on their heads. I want private entities to stop taking from the public trust and using these monies to lobby against the public trust. I want herds managed using science not the latest mad dash in what one group thinks is the basket we should put all of our eggs in. Most of all tristate I want your kids and my kids to have the same experiences that I've had as a hunter and woodsman.
Following the path you support that ain't gonna happen.






2010 TOTALS
P.E.T.A. = 0 HUNTERS GONE
UTAH WILDLIFE BOARD = 13,000 HUNTERS GONE
 
Now you're reading comprehension is suffering and/or you're just posting more crap to stir the pot! I said they are not considered game animals and here is some information for you Mr. Fing expert on everything. The elk I saw were tagged with ear tags from the high fence place that borders my buddie's ranch. The tags were easy to see through my binos and there was a break in the fence from a flood a few days before that allowing them out. So much for your expertise on where they came from! Your other comment on hogs is absolute BS regarding management being taken from the state's hands. You haven't got a clue on most everything you are spouting off on and if the US is so screwed up and not to your liking, why the he** don't you get out of Dodge while the getting's good, LOL! I'm done with this because it's obvious you'll get in the last word, regardless of what it is just to have it, so belly up to the puter bucko!
 
The state of Texas has pretty much taken its hands off pig management. They have tried to remove as many legal perameters for mowing them down and told the private sector go for it if you like. As for the elk you saw I never argued that. I completely believe you saw elk with ear tags somewhere near rocksprings. I don't know why you are getting your panties in a twist there. Also can you post anywhere where I have stated the US is so screwed up and not to my liking? Because I haven't. In fact I think the only people bitching about things not being to your liking is everybody else on this thread. Yall are the ones complaining about the SFW, and the evil "wealth tags". I'm not. Quit being so emotional and actualy listen to what I am saying and quit just making up emotions and feelings out of thin air.
 
"Wanna bet!!! I'm 47 have hunted deer since I was 16. Since 94 I've hunted exclusively with a bow. I don't have a deer tag this year for the first time. SFW and one family played a MAJOR role in this."

So you are telling me you can not by an over the counter tag any where for anything and go hunting? Truthfully

" Wealth tags bring wealth tag management which is ANYTHING BUT SCIENTIFIC."

As much as you may disagree with it politicly that still doesn't mean science is not involved.

" Why do ya think most will wait upwards of 20 years to hunt a mature bull in Utah??"

The exact wellfare system I told you about is why.

"With all the habitat monies going on the ground why has Utah lost 70% of its deer hunters since these tags came in to effect?? Why??"

That is an excellent and very important question that probably has many different reasons that came together to cause that problem.

"So what do I want?? Good question. I want everybody to play by the same rules weather you have $100.00 in the bank or $1,000,000.00 in the bank."

If every tag in the state was auctioned wouldn't that mean absolutely everyone in the state was playing by the same rules regaurdless of income.

"I want my herds managed by winter carrying capacity, and herd populations, not by inches of antler on their heads."

Excellent idea. Nothing wrong with that. Don't be suprised if everyone doesn't feel the same and their vote is just as important as yours.

"I want private entities to stop taking from the public trust and using these monies to lobby against the public trust."

Again, why do you consider it against the public trust? They are the public trust also. Just because you don't like them or they have more funds or they are better organized does not mean we can say they are not part of the public trust.

"I want herds managed using science not the latest mad dash in what one group thinks is the basket we should put all of our eggs in. Most of all tristate I want your kids and my kids to have the same experiences that I've had as a hunter and woodsman.
Following the path you support that ain't gonna happen."

How would you know? Many places around the nation and the world have many different conservation models and some of those places are having more and more wildlife successes and some are losing. Right now you know the wildlife model for the western states is loosing. You know it. You can feel it in you bones. You don't need a website or a news real to tell you. You know it. Conservation is a dynamic situation. Its where science, politics, and sociology crash together like a head on train collision. We have been using the same wildlife model for the western states for about 40 years now. It is based on control and constantly tightening restriction. At some point the powers that be along with the public must become dynamic also and change the plan if they want the next generation to be afforded a hunting heritage. The landscape is changing, the herds are changing, and we can not go on staying the same.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-28-12 AT 01:54PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jul-28-12 AT 01:53?PM (MST)

wileywapiti,

I give you props for trying to talk sense into tristate...he's not "afforded" (pun there) the first clue about wildlife management, who is paying the bills, who has paid the bills, and obviously has no concern for anyone but the wealthy.

Thats cool...his business relies largely on the well-heeled trophy hunter. Hunting heritage will always take a very distant back seat to folks that rely on the publics resources for income. Its as predictable as the sun rising each day, see it daily.

The telling thing regarding all his posts...all trumped up BS with ZERO facts to back up a single thing he says. The only facts provided in this entire discussion are those that I provided.

Dont worry though, SFW and their line of thinking on conservation is headed down the drain. Their lack of accountability and tag theft is coming to end. Its too bad that SFW will ultimately drag down some otherwise good people that have fell into the SFW greed trap.

There is not a better model of wildlife conservation found anywhere than the NAM...FACT.

If there were a better one...tristate would be attempting to "tell us something". He hasnt provided anything close to single fact.
 
Buzz you are correct.. No logical replies or evidence from good old tri. He talks in so many circles he can probably look inside his back pocket.





2010 TOTALS
P.E.T.A. = 0 HUNTERS GONE
UTAH WILDLIFE BOARD = 13,000 HUNTERS GONE
 
Really buzz? you couldn't even fess up with a number I asked you to provide once you realized it proved you were spouting propaganda. So who is SFW stealing from? How do you steal from yourself? You can't get past the denial that a member of the SFW has just as much ownership of wildlife as you. As for whether NAM is the best that is an opinion. Many people enjoy hunting in other nations more than they like hunting here. But guess what? That's opinion too.
 
tristate,

Feel free to "prove" your point on the numbers I provided regarding how much is raised by Governors licenses in Wyoming. Its not insignificant money, but its not life-changing money in regard to Wyomings total wildlife budget either.

Theres a search function on this site...try it regarding SFW and you'll find answers to all your questions.

There is ample proof of many money issues regarding SFW, the expo tags, etc. The cat is barely out of the bag...and thats another fact.

Once again, you've totally failed to provide any proof of a more effective conservation model than the NAM.

Wonder why that is?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-28-12 AT 06:07PM (MST)[p]Buzzh and WW---I think tristate was schooled by Birdman, LOL! Why in haydes does he need a number when he's been shown that only 6% of the entire budget the G&F operates on comes from all taxpayers through the general fund and the other 94% from licenses and other fees, etc. all paid by the Average Joe Sportsman! It doesn't matter whether the operating budget is 100 million or 200 million because the percentage of how it is paid for stays the same, duh!
 
If I personally write a check for $7000 to help a few kids learn archery, could we throw all the auction tags back into the draw and sing koom by ya?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-28-12 AT 06:58PM (MST)[p]"Wealth tags bring wealth tag management which is ANYTHING BUT SCIENTIFIC. Why do ya think most will wait upwards of 20 years to hunt a mature bull in Utah?? With all the habitat monies going on the ground why has Utah lost 70% of its deer hunters since these tags came in to effect?? Why??

So what do I want?? Good question. I want everybody to play by the same rules weather you have $100.00 in the bank or $1,000,000.00 in the bank. I want my herds managed by winter carrying capacity, and herd populations, not by inches of antler on their heads. I want private entities to stop taking from the public trust and using these monies to lobby against the public trust. I want herds managed using science not the latest mad dash in what one group thinks is the basket we should put all of our eggs in. Most of all tristate I want your kids and my kids to have the same experiences that I've had as a hunter and woodsman.
Following the path you support that ain't gonna happen."





+1 - you read my mind and said it better than I could
 
Its funny that Tri you are trying to use the elk in TX as any kind of example! For 1 TX is 98% private land and the average hunter has no right to these lands or animals that inhabit them. And yes i have seen the elk that live in that country as i have a freind with a huge ranch near Alpine, TX thats just crawling with elk. The problem is that because they are an invasive species, the mule deer that once roamed the area are all but gone! My buddy hates the elk there and bitches about the state not taking care of them sooner.

Heres the problem though, since TX is ALL private the state cannot dictate to the land owner who or what is going to happen on their own land. Same problem with the hogs. In NM where i live the hogs are moving in and destroying everything! They are a huge problem, fun to shoot, but not good for native wildlife period!

Now why dont you start trying to answer some of these guys questions to you? Ive seen most of yours answered, and very well at that with facts and numbers. Might not be the numbers you wan t to hear but true ones non the less.

Here i'll start.......How much of the almost 8 million dollars that Utah SFW took in last year went back to "on the ground" projects in utah??????? How much of that money went into the pockets of SFW employee's??????

Putting our public resource into the hands of privatized orgs would be the worste mistake in history! All they truly see is the all mighty dollar and thats a fact!


I just call em as I see em!
 
You are dodging the question I asked you a long time ago on this thread. Instead you try to change the subject with some unanswerable bull. You want to analyze north American wildlife sounds great.
1. 3 subspecies of elk gone forever
2. Fewer mule deer than 40 years ago
3. Fewer sheep than when the formation of the sacred NAM including extinction of one of the bighorn subspecies along with the near extinction of the Sierra Nevada bighorn.
4 the north American bison.
5. The passenger pigeon
6. Extinction of three different wolf species
7 the jaguar
8. The eastern bobwhite quail gone from over %95 of its range.
9. The grizzly bear gone from %90 of its range in the lower 48 states

this little list took about two seconds. Take a bow
 
Buzz won't give the number because he knows it will prove the propaganda incorrect. Topgun hasn't proven anything except buzz is scared.
 
Like I said before put %100 of the tags on auction and everyone will have the exact same opportunity to buy one.
 
Actually horn hunter you couldn't be further from the truth. Texas parks and wildlife could re-instate the elk as a game species with the stroke of a pen. The state regulated their harvest for decades and could do it again. Also they are not invasive. They have always existed in west Texas and just because They are reclaiming old ranges that they had been pushed out of doesn't make them invasive. But thanks for making my point to Topgun that elk are making a fast comeback in Texas.

Also in regards to your question about where the money went with SFW I do not have an answer for you. If you go back and read my posts I agreed that SFW should have to have total disclosure to the public on their finances.
 
Yes they were introduced there just like they were in most of the western states that now have far greater numbers than TX. Why? Because of the wildlife agencies set up in each state.

Now just like you are trying to state that elk are making a comeback in TX and should be allowed to retake native ground. You stated earlier about the wolves being such a bad thing, but they ARE native to these areas. Why is it ok for elk but not wolves?


I just call em as I see em!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-28-12 AT 08:53PM (MST)[p]Tristate (63 posts)
Jul-28-12, 07:41 PM (MST)
117. "RE: Hate Wealth tags? - Vote with your dollars"
Like I said before put 100% of the tags on auction and everyone will have the exact same opportunity to buy one.

***I wonder how many people that have read this statement that you've put up several times have either laughed themselves to death or puked all over their computer! How can anyone that's been past the third grade make such a dumbass statement essentially saying that somebody making $20,000 a year has the same chance at an auction tag as a guy making $250,000 a year? That same basic statement, I believe, was made by an SFW official on a MM thread and it got laughed right off the Forums and now you come back with the same BS! As far as elk around Alpine and a few other areas in Texas, so what! Those areas don't represent more than 10 or 15 percent of the state as far as free ranging animals. Also, exactly what number do you want and I'll find it even though it's not needed because BuzzH and I have already refuted your stupid statements on G&F numbers too! For somebody that chastized me for being on the Forums so much and telling me to get a life, I would suggest you get off and do the same, since you've managed to make 63 posts with the majority on this one thread, in less than five days and not one friggin post has made any sense to anybody but yourself. Keep that up with all your pot stirring, ignorant BS and you'll pass me before I go on my fall trip to Wyoming, LOL! If you aren't an SFW employee, you definitely should give them a call, as I'm sure they could find a top spot for you in no time at all!!!
 
The wealth tag discussion always gets a little philosophical. The primary org sponsoring this expo is not going to do anything unless they are sufficiently moved to do so (just curious, is SFW now BGF or ??). When a reasonable debate was discussed between org leaders they bowed out. They have no incentive to crawl out of their cocoon. This thread is really more informational, maybe even practical. With 90,000ish deer hunters (draw tags) and 50,000ish elk hunters, a whole bunch of people are being impacted by the sad tag situation in Utah. If you estimate that AT LEAST 80% of Utah hunters are against wealth tags, and the elk and deer hunter population is AT LEAST 100,000 people. You have AT LEAST 80,000 potential customers in Utah alone that will be turned off by the stigma that participation at the expo would bring. When the Arizona tag theft attempt was happening I looked into the Utah expo and concluded it was a bad deal for vendors anyway. Here is an excerpt from some of my research from earlier this year.

************************************************

I went out to the "SFW" Western and Hunting Conservation Expo website and pulled down a list of their exhibitors from this year, I got the list from this link http://www.huntexpo....ibitorList.php. With all the talk about AZSFWC wanting an Expo in Phoenix, what better way to know what the impacts would be than to take a look at the exhibitors that participated in the SFW Salt Lake City Expo this year.

Many exhibitors had multiple booths in different parts of the Expo area. I counted companies rather than booths since counting booths would vastly overstate the actual corporate participation at the expo. After removing duplicates, there were 225 entities on the list to be classified by business type. Here are some interesting statistics.

- 48% (107) of the businesses/organizations at the Expo were guides/taxidermists (and there were only a handful of taxidermists). Of those, over 63% were either international (Canada 19%/Africa 17%/New Zealand 1%) or from Utah (15%) or Montana (11%). The largest outfitter presence was Mossback from Utah, they had a 1500 square foot booth next to the raffle stage.

- The (non-Utah) four corner states outfitters had a TOTAL of 8% of the guides at the SLC Expo (Arizona 3%, Colorado 4%, New Mexico 1%). Not much participation from Utah's neighbors.

- There were only 11 outdoor retailers, 8 were from Utah, 2 big ones from Alaska and a huge one from Nebraska (Cabelas). Outdoor retailers only comprised 5% of the groups at the expo.

-There were 6 non-outdoor retailers, they represented about 3% of the total organizations at the expo. These businesses sold anything from perfume to furniture. Kind of a swap meet kind of thing.

- There were 59 outdoor equipment manufacturing businesses at the expo, this represented about 26% of the orgs at the expo. Some big names include Christensen Arms, Hoyt, Browning, Remington. Of the 59 outdoor manufacturers, almost half (25) were from Utah. No other state had more than 6 manufacturing companies represented.

- There were 13 non-outdoor manufacturing companies at the expo, this represented 6% of the orgs represented. The products offered varied from artwork to dog food. Since art is produced and sold by the artist, I classified these businesses as a manufacturers.

- There were at least 8 groups directly linked to Sportsman For Wildlife (SFW) represented. They accounted for 4% of the total orgs represented but they had far more square footage allocated to them than anyone else.

- There were only 8 regular non-SFW related wildlife organizations represented, of this, 6 are based in Utah and only two were outside the state of Utah (Boone and Crockett in Montana and the North American Bear Association in Minnesota). I was surprised to see so few Conservation organizations outside of Utah participating at an Expo with Conservation in the title.

- There were twelve organizations that I classified as government. Some were state or federal government but others were native American tribal government. They represented 5% of the total overall orgs.

So after looking at this I have come to some conclusions and still have a few questions.

1. With nearly half the businesses represented being guides, why would a family pay money to attend an Expo like this? My kids would be bored in about 5 minutes if all they had to look at were grip and grin photos and stalking videos. I saw almost nothing for kids.

2. How does the state of Utah make money when over one third of the outfitters are actually located outside of the United States (and the majority of the others are outside the State of Utah) . I can see how the non-profit SFW profits by renting booth space, I just don't see how the State of Utah or wildlife benefits from outfitters being hired through this expo.

3. With only 8% of the organizations being "retail", how are people at the Expo going to spend money? Especially when almost half of the retail businesses are not even outdoor related. How many hotdogs, slushees, camo hats, and antler stickers can one person buy? Especially when there are at least a couple more similar Expos every year in the same city.

4. Why were there so few outdoor retailers at the SLC Expo and why were the few that attended from only 3 states (and one is Cabelas which doesn't really count, the others are from Utah and Alaska). Were outdoor retailers from other states even welcome? If so, why did they decide not to participate?

5. Why was so much floor space allocated for promotion of the groups that hosted the Expo (MDF/SFW)? Why didn't someone use this space for a fish tank or some other youth engagement activity?

6. Were the government booths provided for free in exchange for auction tags? It sure seemed like a bunch of government groups were there, some tribes even had two booths.

7. With 26% of the organizations being outdoor gear manufacturers (guns/gear/optics etc), how does all of this add to the bottom line for the State of Utah. I challenge the notion that consumers are more inclined to purchase a specific brand because they saw a sign for it at an Expo (full of other colorful signs). I view this as a ploy to artificially inflate the "impacts" to cities outside of where the actual Expo would be located.

8. Why did so few wildlife organizations choose to exhibit at the expo, with the exception of two (B&C and the Bear Org), all the rest are sponsored or affiliates of SFW? Aren't non-SFW wildlife organizations allowed to attend?

Bottom line, I do not see how the Expo makes money for anyone other than the SFW. The booths are expensive, space isn't allocated fairly, retail opportunities are of low quality and very limited. There is nothing to lure Average Joes or families. If anything, the raffle and subsequent "hunting license" verification only serves to pad the post-expo numbers for the Expo sponsor (which will then be used for more outrageous projections about economic benefits to the state for future Expos and more auction tags). The average amount generated by each raffle tag is less than $4,000, which isn't much more than the average value the State would have earned collecting over many years through the fair public drawing.

In my opinion, this Expo makes no sense at all. I don't even think the outfitters that pay big money for the booths are even getting a good deal out of it (since some of their competitors are being strategically placed to have better access to auction bidders). Speaking of auction bidders, most of the big dollar guys bid over the phone through an onsite proxy bidder, the rich guys aren't even onsite to throw their money around....AND...most of these guys have their guide BEFORE they even win the tag. Once again, everyone loses except the wealthy auction winner and the group sponsoring the expo.

*****************************************************

I wrote the stuff above about four or five months ago, I have seen nothing to change my opinion. Fot those wondering, Trisate is not some kind of plant we convinced to spew outrageous comments, I think he is actually a real person with real thoughts that seem to mirror those of some of the expo coordinaters. I agree with him on one thing though, the groups that sell these tags should share the financials, unfortunately up to this point the dog ate their homework. Alot of CUSTOMERS seem to agree this is unacceptable.

Ryan
 
Buzz and Topgun, People like this is why I believe that we need the average Joe paying the way of the Fish and Game. The 6% general fund in Wyoming would represent the general funds that the hunters and fishers spend out in the general public sector. Like motels food and lodging. Seems like he can't accept the fact of 6%. maybe I should do some math for him.

All of the schooling I have been taught you put the % after the number. So seventy percent is 70% not percent seventy %70.
 
The topic of so call "Wealth Tags" or conservation tags is a very heated debate. Here is my take on it, and the way it really does work. I agree some of the Organizations may use a little more money than they should, but the tags are a good thing for overall hunting in Utah. A certain percentage of the sale price has to go directly into wildlife conservation, and it does. Look around and see the various projects going on around the state that benefit wildlife. The "average" hunter in Utah sure as hell cannot afford one of these tags, but sell it to a wealthy guy, and we get a ton of his money, at the cost of "One" animal. The money benefits many more animals than it hurts! Therfore it benefits us all as hunters. Everyone is so distraught about the deer situation in the state, but its gonna take a ton of money to remedy it, and its not gonna get better by filling everyones freezer with deer meat. I'd like to see them up the number of conservation tags, and get more money to make things better for the rest of us. There are many wealthy people willing to buy tags for ridiculous amounts of money, and this is one thing that helps us a ton, without hurting a ton of game. Ill be the first to say that if fraudulent use of "OUR" money is going on we need to do something, but these organizations are really trying to help, the question we need to ask ourselves is are we doing our part or just bitching about everything?
 
Actually horn hunter I never stated it was ok for them to come back, I just stated it was happening. I know some landowners that do like it. I know the state in some areas are trying to drive them out.
 
Topgun you and buzz cited a quote on a website for your evidence. Site that on a academic paper and watch how fast you flunk out of school. Buzz proclaimed he had the numbers and I quote "to the penny". But when I told him to post one of them he has refused. Even he was smart enough to know when he looked at the numbers they don't add up to the propaganda.

As for elk in the state we never were covered up with them but the ones we have are doing pretty good. Don't get bitter just because your website picking blew up in your face again.

And yes regardless of income everyone has the same chance at an auction tag. All you have to do is either save money or make more money at a faster rate. This is America and I don't know of a single MAN that says his dreams are out of reach because of money. Hell, if I wanted to I could probably by a sheep tag. Might take 7 years of saving and sacrifice but that's better than the 30 years putting in for draw and never getting one. But like most people on a welfare system you don't like sacrifice do you Topgun.
 
lsorenso---I have no idea how you can say you want more of those tags when they obviously take more opportunity away from the average person like yourself. What good will it do if you triple your deer numbers if you can't get a tag to hunt? I also wonder if you have been following all the threads regarding how SFW/BGF will not show where ALL the money they take in goes. It's gullible people such as yourself that let these people take a lot of your hard earned money in the name of conservation and then put it in their pockets and to other uses, instead of where it's suppose to go. Why do you figure Utah needs to use this system or increase it when most of the other states have very few tags done this way and they all appear to be in better shape than Utah? It looks like if this SFW system of stealing from the average Joe was the great savior, that Utah would be leading the nation in numbers of animals and tag sales instead of taking 20+ years for most to even have a chance at a good tag!
 
Excavator, the more I type the more my self respect grows. Everytime the state sends you back a rejection letter but you spent the money on a license does your self respect diminish?
 
Well topgun you finally showed that people can survive without a brain. And I quote "What good will it do if you triple your deer numbers". If the deer triple in size the state has to release a lot more tags to manage their numbers. You are a short sighted fool that refuses to follow the trail of cause and effect. More deer means more tags, means more state income for more hunters and conservation projects, which means more deer and the cycle continues. But for you it's easier to just attack other hunters.
 
Tristate (68 posts)
Jul-29-12, 09:29 AM (MST)
126. "RE: Hate Wealth tags? - Vote with your dollars"
"Topgun you and buzz cited a quote on a website for your evidence. Site that on a academic paper and watch how fast you flunk out of school. Buzz proclaimed he had the numbers and I quote "to the penny". But when I told him to post one of them he has refused. Even he was smart enough to know when he looked at the numbers they don't add up to the propaganda."

***You still haven't stated what number you want when I asked for it so I could look it up. However, if our numbers are so off for you and are from accurate sources you won't accept, why don't you post some friggin numbers to refute them and tell us where you got yours and why they're so accurate and ours aren't? Dare ya! All you keep doing is responding with BS like that paragraph, which was a waste of time reading. Put up or STFU!

"As for elk in the state we never were covered up with them but the ones we have are doing pretty good. Don't get bitter just because your website picking blew up in your face again."

***Sounds like you're now backing off your earlier statements about how the elk are expolding in numbers all over Texas. Now they're just doing "pretty good", LOL!

"And yes regardless of income everyone has the same chance at an auction tag. All you have to do is either save money or make more money at a faster rate. This is America and I don't know of a single MAN that says his dreams are out of reach because of money. Hell, if I wanted to I could probably by a sheep tag. Might take 7 years of saving and sacrifice but that's better than the 30 years putting in for draw and never getting one. But like most people on a welfare system you don't like sacrifice do you Topgun."

*** That's one way to twist and turn and spin it around when the rich guy can buy one every year if he wants with his tax return money and us average Joes may have to scrimp for God knows how many years to maybe put enough together to buy one, LOL! Yep, that's really equal opportunity, LOL! NOT!!! That sounds about as legitimate as the one you made that most people's dreams of moving up are reachable! You are obviously just posting to be posting since nothing you say can be backed up with facts, but with the BS you keep spouting that was real easy to see about 60+ posts ago, LOL! The more you post the bigger azz you make of yourself with everyone reading this thread, but it's your choice, so just keep on keepin on. I won't call you a fool like you have some of us, even though the word fits perfectly! Now I'm going to have a peaceful day, watch a ballgame or two, and dream of all the hunts I'd like to go on that are out of my reach and also by everyone else, except by maybe 10% of the population!
 
Actually I did state the exact number I was looking for. What is the st ate budget for wildlife law enforcement? Buzz says he knows all the numbers in Wyoming down to the penny but the minute he has to post that figure he knows his entire argument crashes like your dreams of getting a welfare tag.

I also never claimed elk were everywhere. I told you they were exploding in west Texas which someone else on this forum seconded.

Why is it not equal opportunity. I have shown how I can do it. There is nothing I have done with my career that all of y'all could not do. Some maybe could even do it better.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-29-12 AT 02:25PM (MST)[p]You may have stated the number you were looking for, but I wasn't going back through all your posts to find it. I did notice you answered that question, but didn't give any of your own numbers when you've been asked repeatedly to do so to prove your point. I guess that means there are no numbers and you lose!
Then you also come back with this BS question again: "Why is it not equal opportunity."
Guess you still can't comprehend simple English and math when what you mention is a person trying to save to buy ONE license over a number of years at auction when the rich guy can buy one EVERY year and not even think twice about it. Your thoughts on it being equal opportunity are false, bogus and ludicrous! So if I find this total G&F budget number for you, what number are you going to reference that makes ours come "crashing down" as you put it? If you're talking about what the auction and raffle tag money represents compared to what the total budget comprises, it's a fraction of 1%. On the plus side, my Tigers won today 4-1!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-29-12 AT 03:20PM (MST)[p]Here ya go Mr. tristate. This is the latest data based on the way they handle their fiscal year. 94% of the money is obtained from license fees and other related stuff like stamps, PP fees, and others which were mentioned in a breakdown that BuzzH posted involving everyone participating in the outdoor sports, with the remaining 6% from the general fund from all taxpayers. Now what are you going to do with these numbers?

Total Wyoming Game and Fish Department Expenditures for FY 10:
$65,203,505

Division #FTEs* 2010 Annual Budget

Wildlife Division 157.9 $ 21,397,993

Fish Division 101.7 $ 11,918,414

Services Division 99.8 $ 14,049,873

Fiscal Division 51.9 $ 6,138,489

Office of the

Director 18.8 $ 3,149,576

Other** 55.3 $ 15,095,168

TOTAL 485.4 $ 71,749,510
 
Blablablablabla. Evil rich guy get tag me want. Hate rich people. How come your goverNment buddy buzz won't share the numbers he said he knows right down to the penny? You keep talking in the same circles hoping no one will notice buzz is holding out on the truth. Then in true clas warfare action you cry about rich people get to by more tags than you. Waaaaaaa! You live in a capitalist nation. What did you say earlier? Why don't you pack up and split if you are too much of a wimp to deal with the reality that money affords people more opportunity.
 
AND THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE!:7:7:7

Now go back and calculate the total figures provided by buzz who gave the numbers right down to the penny. I'll help you they totalled a little over 39million. Now I am sure you can calculate percentages but that leaves close to %40 that has to be sucked up by somebody. Plus you left the law enforcement budget off of that list which is what I requested in the beginning and will really drop your %6 figure in the bucket.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-29-12 AT 06:18PM (MST)[p]You twist more words into chit than anybody I've seen other than Obama, LOL! Nobody on here has said we hate rich people, so twist some more. All that has been said is that they shouldn't use their wealth to cut ahead of the average person by buying high priced tags that 95% of the hunting population can't afford year to year. How many expensive hunts has Denny Austad bought each year and prevented that tag from being in the draw where everyone would have a chance? Answer---Too many to count! Money and wealth should not afford people the opportunity to buy tags. If they want to buy an expensive hunt, then they can go out of the country or wait for a tag like everyone else and then spend a fortune paying for an outfitter/guide service like Mossback and let them take you around for almost a sure kill on a good animal that they've scouted all year.
Now back to your numbers game! The law enforcement budget is part of the Wildlife Division budget listed in that breakdown I posted above Mr. Smartazz expert! As stated in earlier posts, 94% of the total G&F budget is paid for directly by license fees and a whole bunch of other things that are direct from the outdoor users like PPs, Conservation Stamps, application fees, excise taxes from sports related equipment, ATV permits, etc. and way too many other friggin things for Buzz or myself to mention. That leaves only 6% that the general fund from all taxpayers pays for. The information is easy to find and yet all you can do is refute our evidence with nothing to back yourself up. You wouldn't be related to Birdman would you, as that's what's in every other one of his posts? He just knows, LOL! If you can't come up with any raw, irrefutable evidence to contradict the official numbers we've posted, then STFU and cease saying we've proved your point because the only point is on the top of your friggin head and the more you post the more pointed it is!!!
 
Tristate......really????

What are you....like 7 years old????

All you do is argue. Great, we understand that you have a strong opinion. So what. SHUT UP!

I'm tired, as well as others, of listening to you rant.
You need to except that you're never going to convince anyone on here who you're arguing with. So quit typing. Seriously. I can hear your key strokes as I type this post. It's giving me a headache. You probably do taxidermy work for a reason. Nobody wants to listen to you and I understand why.

Get a life
 
Hey math genius. %96+%6=%102. No wonder you can't figure out you are being lied to.

By the way you are incorrect in stating everybody would have a chance at the tag if it went back in the draw. Some people have more bonus points in the draw so they will get picked before others. But now we are back to doing math again and that's not really your deal is it.
 
Billy bob, I just want hunting opportunities for you and all else to improve, and segregating these hunters with class warfare does nothing to make that happen. The future of my business is heavily dependent on solving conservation issues that face ALL of us, so please don't be offended by someone that takes it a little more serious than you do. I hope your headache gets better.
 
Tristate...

Arguing back and forth on this website isn't getting much done for you or for all of us now is it? All the typing you've done on this thread, has it helped? Have things improved? NO! Also I think your comments such as the ones you've posted on this thread are more worrysome for your business than whether the state makes some changes or not. If you want to help make some changes then here you go. Did you sign the petition on change.org? That could be a quiet way for you to start helping.
BTW...I take this just as serious as any of the rest of you. The difference is that I know when I'm wasting my breath or if I'm actually doing some productive good for all hunters. You should have gotten a clue.
 
You did say and we did agree on one thing... that SFW should be more accountable and transparent with their funds so do us all a favor and sign the petition. I'll even give ya the link.

http://www.change.org/petitions#search/DWR utah

Good luck with your rants on this thread. Good luck finding the majority to agree with your ideas of ways to fix the system.
 
I do believe in total disclosure of the accounting but there are other attachments onto that petition I am unsure about. I will look more into it though.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-29-12 AT 06:25PM (MST)[p]BillyBob---I give up too when I make one little mistake hitting a 6 instead of a 4 and get nothing but more BS back about that and again nothing that I asked for to refute my numbers! I think the reason he's in the taxidermy business is exactly as you said because he couldn't make it out in the real world interacting with people. Dead animals don't talk back, so he wins every argument by default, LOL! I really wonder if he owns that taxidermy business or just gets paid to paste eyeballs in all day, seeing as how a little bit ago he said he had made his quota by 2PM, LOL! I guess I should be afforded one little typo since every post of his is filled with nothing but errors in spelling, etc. Yet, he's a smart college graduate!!! I quit because this could go on forever the way this guy is and I could kick myself for getting into a pissing match with him after I said I wouldn't. I do believe he has set a new site record for posts in a thread in such a short time and that's in his first week on the site! God knows what's to come!!!
 
If the Utah DWR needs these wealth tags to maintain operations they are a sad inefficient group that should all be fired. Management of funds is their job responsibility and selling off core public assets to bridge the gaps reflects very poor management skills. The wealth tag orgs running this expo have been cozy with the DWR for a long time and it is clear the relationship is making things worse.

Here a some cost saving suggestions for the DWR......

- Eliminate the CWMU tags - Average hunters certainly wont miss their 14% portion. It might actually allow you to simplify the number of draw guides that you have to produce....less CONSERVATION money needed huh? I tried to find some information on general tag numbers and was presented with like 6 guides on the website. Seemed like a deliberate attempt to confuse and a big waste of money.

- Better yet, simplify the whole Utah draw program all together. It is possible to publish one or two books and have it contain all of the hunt information and seasons for all species. I realize simplification would make it hard to hide the thinly veiled landowner and trophy premiums. It would also mean that new hunters might actually understand enough to apply for some of the good hunts without the need to hire a translation service to understand all that special lingo.

Thanks to Terry (stickflicker)for listing the expo exhibitors on this thread. My opinion on how to use this information during the fall spending season...

Bunt = Do not use the companies that choose to exhibit at the expo or at a minimum contact the vendors and express your reservations and concerns.

Base Hit = Tell family and friends to avoid certain companies listed as exhibitors. Maybe even print out a list out for them.

Homerun = Find a website or public forum to share the list and explain the impacts that supporting the companies listed could have on the future of hunting in the West.

Totally actionable and easy.....Feel free to respond to this thread and let everyone know how you did at the plate (bunt/base hit/homerun - no other details needed).

Ryan
 
Javi ok to get back on the topic here. The problem I see with what your wanting is that you want to penalize other business' for sfw's actions. This is America and as far as I can tell this is one of the biggest expo's in Utah right? These people are just trying to earn up some business here. Just because you don't like Chinese made products do you "ban" Walmart, that sells millions of American made products as well? No. I don't blame these other exhibitors for participating as this expo attracts millions of people, so if they don't go the business just goes to the guy that is there! I don't like Nikon but I shop at hundreds of stores that carries their products, does that make me a Nikon supporter? Sorry man but I think your hitting foul balls here lol


I just call em as I see em!
 
tristate,

I answered your question...Excellent now we can get some answers. Why don't you tell me to the exact penny how much money the governor's tags raised for Wyoming last year.

Like I stated earlier, I sit on the WGBGLC and I provided you with the exact dollar amount raised by Wyoming Governors Tag sales, to the penny. I answered your question...before you edited your post to include other figures you wanted.

Thats your problem.
 
This has been an interesting discussion. However, for those of you who really want to address the lack of transparency and accountability with regard to the 200 Convention Permits, you have an opportunity to be part of the solution on Thursday August 16th. See my thread regarding the Utah Wildlife Board Meeting. We need your help!

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
Buzz,

I haven't edited a single post on here. As for the total dollars from the governors tags, you allready answered that one. Why would I need to repost it?

Anyway you may want to jump to another thread. Someone has started a thread about all of your states deer tags becoming draw next year. Hopefully that is just a rumor because you said you have been doing such a good job making sure our kids are afforded the same opportunities we were. I know you think I am being a smartass but I am actually rooting for you on this one.
 
Jul-29-12, 10:33 PM (MST)
148. "RE: Hate Wealth tags? - Vote with your dollars"
This has been an interesting discussion. However, for those of you who really want to address the lack of transparency and accountability with regard to the 200 Convention Permits, you have an opportunity to be part of the solution on Thursday August 16th. See my thread regarding the Utah Wildlife Board Meeting. We need your help!
Hawkeye
Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD

***Yep, and it's amazing that the all knowing tristate, the guy that has been so much against us and for the tag programs, to the point of wanting 100% of the state tags to be sold at auction, is now asking a bunch of questions about the $5 application fee, etc. He also asked questions in regards to the UWC proposal when it's been well explained and posted for all to read and sign the petition, but he has a problem with some kind of an "attachment", which I have no idea what he's talking about. The petition appears to have been successful so far in at least getting the attention of the DWR to put discussion on the table for the meeting on 8/16. I hope all of you that are within proximity of the meeting place will fill it. All of us outstaters will have to do the email thing and pray that tons of people show up and get the attention of the DWR that this is a serious problem that needs to be corrected. Thanks to Hawkeye and Tye, as well as all the others who got this going and who signed the petition!
 
"***Yep, and it's amazing that the all knowing tristate, the guy that has been so much against us and for the tag programs, to the point of wanting 100% of the state tags to be sold at auction, is now asking a bunch of questions about the $5 application fee, etc. He also asked questions in regards to the UWC proposal when it's been well explained and posted for all to read and sign the petition, but he has a problem with some kind of an "attachment", which I have no idea what he's talking about. The petition appears to have been successful so far in at least getting the attention of the DWR to put discussion on the table for the meeting on 8/16. I hope all of you that are within proximity of the meeting place will fill it. All of us outstaters will have to do the email thing and pray that tons of people show up and get the attention of the DWR that this is a serious problem that needs to be corrected. Thanks to Hawkeye and Tye, as well as all the others who got this going and who signed the petition!"

I guess its way easier to act like a jackass than answer someones questions who is thinking about signing the petition?????
 
Robiland,

I had every intention of signing the petition if I could have gotten some clarity on the %90 of $5 attachment. I had stated since the beginning of this thread that I agreed the SFW should have totally open books. Just because your buddy Topgun has finaly become so revolting that I have proclaimed I am against you, don't make assumptions about what my intentions were from the beginning. The facts stand I AM NOT GOING TO SIGN THE PETITON NOW BECAUSE TOPGUN IS YOUR FRIEND AND HE HAS DECIDED TO SIGN THE PETITION! I can't make it anymore honest than that.
 
" I AM NOT GOING TO SIGN THE PETITON NOW BECAUSE TOPGUN IS YOUR FRIEND AND HE HAS DECIDED TO SIGN THE PETITION!"

I bet you were one of those kids who took their bat and ball and went home when you didn't get your way.Heck, from the sounds of it you still are...... Terry
 
Nope stickman, I took my bat and ball home because my daddy would whoop my ass if he caught me playing with garbage.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-30-12 AT 10:22AM (MST)[p]Tristate (81 posts)
Jul-28-12, 09:11 AM (MST)
79. "RE: Hate Wealth tags? - Vote with your dollars"
LAST EDITED ON Jul-28-12 AT 09:17 AM (MST)

Tristate (81 posts)
Jul-30-12, 06:25 AM (MST)
149. "RE: Hate Wealth tags? - Vote with your dollars"
Buzz,
I haven't edited a single post on here.


***You're full of chit and a liar, as the first one above is the one you edited that Buzz mentioned in his response several times. It's right on this thread and C/Pd here for your viewing pleasure, LOL! Now you make a post on Hawkeye's thread and try to hijack that one saying I'm the cause of you not signing the petition asking for SFW/BGF/MDF accountablitiy just because I signed it, which is more friggin BS! Your other posts are also getting so childish you really should take your bat and balls, if you have any, and get the he** off here for good as you've been outed again and again and now this time with a flat out lie! Go away troll!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-30-12 AT 11:01AM (MST)[p]I was talking about editing in some form of deception. Thats what Buzz was talking about and thats what I was addressing. I have gone back and edited a couple of posts on this thread. I think I have edited two mispellings, one bad punctuation, and not long ago I typed the word "will" twice in a row. But I never once went back and re-wrote something so Buzz would be decieved.

As for hi-jacking another thread I asked very serious questions I had about the petition. Nothing else. Then you showed up and started talking trash. That is the truth. Keep dressing it up any way you want.

How did you ever make it through life treating people this way?

Actually I just went back and read that post. It funny but I actually went back and edited that post to wish him luck on his sheep hunt I think. :7 I never knew that would make me a piece of "chit" and a liar. :7 By the way I am editing this post right now.
 
You might want to keep right on editing until you get it right, LOL! FYI the only people I talk to like I do you are ones like yourself that call people fools, and worse that disagree with them. When that happens the gloves come off!
 
Well I decided to go back and have a little look. Seems that one post later is when Buzz responded to one of my questions but not the other. So I restated the question for him in English I believe it was post 82 by me and there are no edits on that post so you know in no way have I gone back and try to decieve anyone. Regardless of that post Buzz posted several more times but never answered the question which he proclaimed he had the answer to. So buzz's and your arguement holds no water no matter how big of a liar you think I am. Really, go back and look.
 
"FYI the only people I talk to like I do you are ones like yourself that call people fools, and worse that disagree with them."

Little late to take the high road here don't you think. Funny to watch a man who thinks 96+6=100, and cusses at anyone who disagrees with him suddenly become self-righteous.
 
More of your smartazz BS when you have to talk about one little friggin typo I make as your comeback, compared to myriads of mistakes in every post you put up, LOL! I'll stay on the high road and maybe you should take the low road right off the site for good Mr. Troublemaker! You'd better get back to work or you won't get your eyeball quota made by 2PM today, LOL!
 
The little typo proved that you just mindlessly spit numbers out and do not think about the reality of whether they add up or not. I was trying to prove that the states and the conservation websites will use propoganda to keep hunters off their backs and arguing against each other and you proved it.
 
hornhunter247, I understand some of your concerns. And the answer is yes. If Walmart or any other business was selling a product or supporting values that were strongly counter to mine I would stop shopping there. If they were selling products that were putting the health or future interests of my family at risk I would go a step further and tell everyone I knew about it. Especially if I knew the business has a marketing machine that deliberately intends to mislead the public about the risks. I love to hunt, the best times of my life have been with close friends and family hunting. I do not want to look back twenty years from now and wish I would have done more to keep these opportunities possible for my kids. If a couple dozen businesses lose money or go belly up because they were too unsophisticated to pull out of the expo then so be it, with judgement like that they were probably bound to fail anyway.

One more thing, the expo charges like $1250 for a booth (very high priced). As I stated earlier, with almost half the exhibitors being outfitters I find it somewhat outrageous that they allow a premium spot next to the auction stage for one of the largest outiftters (the booth for this outfitter is 15 times the size as the rest of them). I see no reason for the little outfitters to subject themselves to this inequity unless there was some other factor in play. I suspect the raffle tags (conservation tags) have something to do with why some of the vendors are showing up. If raffle tickets are being handed out in return for booth rentals it would be an outrage (it would be providing an individual benefit to a person in exchange for a tax deductible business expense). I would also like to know what kind of bidding process is in place to ensure the businesses supporting the expo are being selected fairly and not part of some good old boy process with personal kickbacks and favors. Generally events that are supported by public assets and money have to conform to some standard in this area. I have no idea if this is happening but if anyone can direct me to documentation that proves one way or the other I would love to see it. Bottom line, the expo is a bad deal for everyone except the orgs that run it. Exhibitors would be doing themselves a favor to skip it.

Ryan
 

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