Help for daughters

[huntingjlc]

Ok, here is the scoop. I have 4 daughters, all right handed. Two of them are left eye dominant. Those two are ages 10 1/2 and 7. All of my daughters love to shoot, fish and just be in the outdoors. The 10 1/2 year old is the oldest.

When trying to shoot right handed, she is always putting her head clear over the stock and trying to use the left eye. I have had her shooting left handed and she gets frustrated because it doesn't feel natural and takes her so long that her arms get tired. (I guess now would be a good time to point out that the trhee older ones have B.B. guns and shoot often, it is when I am trying to help them shoot .22's that they get tired)

So the advice I am looking for is, do I keep trying them to shoot left handed, or get a patch (or something) and see if they can train their right eyes to take over when shooting?

Thanks in advance for any input.

 

[REDDOG]

patch their dominate eye. Also have them practice closing the dominate eye, keeping the other one open, when they learn to do that, they should be able to overcome the problem.

 

[Boskee]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-28-10 AT 09:08AM (MST)[p]In order for them to actually get better they need to shoot left handed. You can't overcome what mother nature has dealt them without a lot of work. Remember you're dealing with young girls and while the eye patch idea can work over time most girls won't buy into it for modesty and you may actually drive them away from shooting. I highly suggest you get them a left handed gun and teach them the right way because they'll adjust pretty quick if given the right equiptment or continue to have them shoot off a bench until they get accustomed to shooting L/H. Nothing builds confidence more than letting them see how well they're progressing at something until you step it up to off hand shooting. Repetitions and consistancy builds confidence. Savage and Remington have some good youth models at a reasonable cost.

Many southpaws use R/H guns today to shoot with but in order to teach them proper form and function a L/H model should be in their future especially with a bolt action. If they're using a semi auto type .22 just keep at it with the left hand because they're learning from their natural side. They adjust quicker than you think when they have to master a L/H weapon as long as you get them comfortable shooting from their dominate side and learn the proper fundamentals. Making them shoot from the wrong side is handcapping them as much as it would be for you to pick up a gun and shoot it from the wrong side. Have them shoot those BB guns from the left side to develop their skills to allow for a more seamless progression in the future. They'll get the hang of it quicker than you think and then it becomes natural and they make lever guns in good calibers so it's an easy transition for them to step it up or make the transition to a l/h bolt.

 

[Hardway]

http://www.mpistocks.com/newproducts.htm

MPI will build an "offset" stock, but they are uglier than sin and its a bandaid for a bigger problem. I like boskee's idea better.

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

 

[huntingjlc]

Thanks for the replies. They do shoot the bb guns as much as they can. The oldest one gets mad because her 9 year old sister out shoots her. I guess I will look into getting left handed guns. I let them mostly shoot a henry lever in .22, although the 9 yr old shoots a bolt or 10-22.

 

[REDDOG]

Boskee, I am far from a shooting instructor, but I dealt with left eye dominance when I started shooting (I'm right handed).
I am not sure that the "right" way is to learn to shoot lefty??

They dont need a patch, they just need to practice closing the left eye, keeping the right one open. they may have to hold one shut and one open with their hands while watching TV or something until they get the muscles trained, they should get to where they can close each eye individually (something the strong one eye dominate can not do, without practice).


I dont recall it being that hard to overcome, just takes a little time.

 

[Boskee]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-29-10 AT 00:12AM (MST)[p]Reddog each situation is different But I can tell you that statistics show that for the majority of shooters your better off having them shoot on the proper side for their dominate eye especially with a long gun. When we were growing up L/h guns were in shorter supply than they are today so why go thru the grief? I've taught a lot of kids & adults to shoot and it's easier to deal with success than failure. I'm not saying that it can't be done but I've seen a lot of kids never reach their potential or drop out of shooting because it's not comfortable for them with a gun or a bow. In quite a few instances they use the other (dominate) eye because they actually have much better visual acuity in that eye and many kids can't close their other non dominate eye individually like you said. Now think about this, your in a hunting situation and you have to get on an animal quickly you actually have to think (concentrate) to control what you're about to do rather than react and 99% of the time you use your dominate eye more for everyday vision. Your not being fair to the kid in the long run. I'm right handed but learned to shoot from the left side in a very short time and based on my career path and everything else in my competitive days it was the right move. I've watched too many kids struggle with it because somebody thinks they know better than mother nature and the fact is they're usually wrong.

Yes it can be taught but opposing what comes naturally usually is making things more difficult than they need to be especially when it's supposed to be fun. Having trouble aiming because you want to use the wrong eye isn't fun especially when your siblings are beating you. It's far easier to train your shooting muscles to learn something than it is to train your eyes when 99% of the time you're using the other eye as your dominate eye because it is every day. That's my $.02 and it certainly isn't the only way.

PS one other big advantage by shooting L/H when you are right handed and left eye dominate is that you are supporting the heaviest part of your bow or rifle with your strong arm and that can make you steadier and facilitate better shot placement in off hand situations.

 

[Boskee]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-29-10 AT 08:15AM (MST)[p]Huntingjlc, Your going about it the right way just have them shoot L/H and keep it fun. A little shooting bench work with them initially can go a long way to making them confident and once they start to hit L/H it takes care of itself. I suggest the bench because the gun is supported and they will concentrate more on shooting rather than holding the gun at this point especially with the .22. Let them shoot the BB guns left handed & off hand and watch how quickly they progress once they learn to use their muscles. Semi auto's and lever guns don't pose much of an issue because they can be shot either way.

Shooting a r/h bolt gun isn't an issue either in a single shot capacity. But cycling the bolt can pose some issues on down the line. But there are lots of L/H shooters that shoot R/H guns and can cycle the bolt pretty well but it takes an extra step or two on follow up shots. Remember that they may be off a bit on a scoped gun because their eye may/may not be looking thru the scope at the same angle as a r/h shooter. Teach them how to compensate to be competitive with their siblings or shoot for groups and measure those because it's the smallest group wins, and watch the fun begin. You don't have to buy them a gun until they're ready for it and don't be surprised if they can outshoot their old man when they're ready. Kids like to break things and balloons are cheap and you can buy a big bag at the dollar store and have some fun with that in a group. Hope these suggestions help give you some ideas.

 

[huntingjlc]

Boskee,
Thanks for the info and the encouragement. I do think that I need to get them shooting off the bench more. They have mostly shot off hand so far so I can imagine shooting from the bench and actually hitting more things will sure help.

 

[400bull]

Huntingjlc,

I could not agree with Boskee more. When my oldest boy started shooting his BB gun I noticed that he was doing the same thing your daughter is doing. He would lean clear over his BB gun so that he could use his left eye to shoot with. The poor kid could not hit the side of a barn shooting like this. I had him try shooting left handed for a while. I could not believe how quickly he picked it up and how much better he started shooting. It was like day and night.

If your daughter gets frusterated shooting left handed because her siblings can out shoot her you may want to have a couple one on one sessions with her untill she gets the hange of things. It may take two or three shooting sessions before she starts to feel comfotable shooting lefthanded. I think in the long run both you and her will be glade that you switched thing over.

Good luck and let us know how things turn out.

400bull

 

[Califelkslayer]

I think both REDDOG and BOSKEE are right. Like RED, I'm left eye dominate and grew up shootin right handed. If I had insisted on shooting lefthanded my dad wasn't gonna buy me no new gun. I always shot hand me downs.

And in the 60's nobody cared what eye was dominate anyways.

I actually shot a recurve bow left handed as a teenager but at 16, when I went to buy my own bow, I bought a righthanded one because the selection was better.

And I shoot a shotgun better than all but one of my huntin partners, have shot in the 90's on occasion on Sportin Clays courses so I guess I adjusted. Scoped rifles doesn't matter much IMO.

All that bein said, my daughter is lefthanded, right eye dominate. I taught her right handed. She picked it up quickly and this was a no-brainer for me since she'd be using her dominate eye and would have access to tons a guns.

My second wife had never held a gun. She's left handed and left eye dominate. Another no-brainer. Bought her left handed rifle, gave her an over/under. She learned quickly since it was her natural way.

If I was teachin a new shooter to shoot, I'd go with their dominate eye. If someone has years of experience I feel changin em to use their dominate eye will set them back. If they are only an average shooter, they may improve in the long run but they have to be committed to shootin tons to overcome their old habits and gain new muscle memory.

 

[ELKOHOLIC]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-02-10 AT 07:35PM (MST)[p]I disagree that you can't overcome it. I've seen several people who struggle with this overcome it in a matter of a few weeks. A piece of tape on a pair of shooting glasses on your dominate eye will help if your willing to put in a little time with it and practice with your sight picture. Yeah it might look funny, but it works.

huntingjlc, They are young and don't have a lot of experience. I think this is the perfect time and opportunity to cure this. If it feels natural for them to shoot right handed I would encourage them to do that.

 

[REDDOG]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-02-10 AT 11:01PM (MST)[p]With respect to Boskee's experience, for the life of me I cannot figure out why learning to shoot left handed is easier than training the dominate eye to stay closed. "nature" decided the dominate arm just as much as it did the dominate eye, changing either is doable, so why not address the actual problem?

Both should take about the same time, but when you are done training the eye, you will have addressed the actual problem, and will have ambidextrous eyes (for lack of the proper term).something that can be a desirable trait in various shooting activities.

I learned to shoot lefty with a shotgun for the heck of it..I'd much rather train my eye again.I think people who have never delt with it blow it way out of proportion..it aint that hard to fix, but it does take a bit of dedication.

I guess if the shooter doesn't really care one way or another if they ever shoot again, it will be tuff to overcome (sayin those that cant do it, just dont want to.)

 

[ce61]

i am left eye dominant and shoot right handed with a rifle or shotgun, but switched to left shooting bow and would never go back. sure is nice to shoot with both eyes open. wish when i was a kid someone would have got me straightened out to shoot left handed. still think that learning to shoot with your dominant eye would be best. ce61

 

[Boskee]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-03-10 AT 00:00AM (MST)[p]How many kids are really dedicated to anything? The girls frustrated right now because her sisters are beating her. For all we know she can't see as well out of the other eye, that's usually the reason why your body picks the one it does. Here's a father that wants his kids to enjoy shooting and wants her to participate. You don't slap a pice of tape on her glasses or put an eye patch on that. You sit down and spend some quality time with her and make her feel comfortable and be supportive and in a matter of a couple of sessions she'll be shooting with her siblings and won't look back. You let her use what comes naturally not try to teach her to RETRAIN her eyes. Which eye is she going to use as her dominate eye 24/7 when she's not shooting with your method... the other eye. Shes going to want to aim with the wrong eye every single time she puts that gun to her shoulder unless she makes a concerted effort not to do so. Why not take advantage of that and build on it. Think what you want but there's less frustration and grief doing it the way I suggested especially with a child. It's supposed to be fun but I think you both may have lost sight of that fact.

It's a different era boys and the old ways aren't necessarily the only way. You guys made the committment and spent the time overcoming the issue because that was probably expected. Do either of you shoot a bow with a sight? She's a young lady and if she was a young man I'd be telling her parents exactly the same thing. You think it's harder to learn my way but ask a few instructors out there and you'll probably find they'll tell you to shoot left handed. It's easier than you think and I've done it enough times to to know it's not as hard as your trying to make it appear especially if she decides to pick up a bow later and the sights out in front of her extended arm. The good thing about advice is you can take it of leave it. Reddog you know i respect your line of thinking too.

 

[REDDOG]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-03-10 AT 01:26AM (MST)[p]Yes I do shoot a bow..often why?

Like I said, I aint no instructor, so if thats what the kids are doing now days, carry on..

I really didnt think it was a big deal to overcome.

This wouldn't be a scam to get more lefty's into shooting would it Boskee? getting the attention of rifle makers to produce port side bolts

Edit to say,from now if a guy asked me how to deal with this problem, I will mention switching shoulders. If the results say it works, its hard to argue with.

 

[Boskee]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-03-10 AT 08:19AM (MST)[p]Reddog I think you caught me!!! humor me I'm going to tell you a little story. I never said your way wouldn't work at all. Methods and thinking change over time look how different they coach people in many sports today as opposed to when we were young. I have a friend that's a hell of a shot with a bow and shot with the wrong eye and side for 20 years. He went to a high profile archery coach and the guy watched him shoot his way and said what I'm going to tell you to do isn't going to make you happy. If you want me to coach you you're going to have to listen and do what I say. This coach is that good and can pick and choose his students. He said you don't question what I'm going to teach you and if I don't make you a better shot I'll refund 1/2 your money but you have to pay up front for 1/2 the lessons. But you will sign a letter and do it my way. This guy was good but always just a few points short of winning on so many occassions it was sad. He agreed and signed. The coach went down and got a stick bow out to check his draw both sides for consistancy he said. He said that's all for today I'll see you next week.

When he got there the next week the coach said I want your bow let me see it. He said I've got a new model I want you to try, I think it will make you better and I know it will improve your scores. He handed him a fully set up left handed bow and said this is where we begin. The guy about crapped. It was hard but he did it and started to learn to shoot L/H. frustration set in but he listened to his coach and kept working. He wasn't allowed to shoot any competiton until his coach said he's ready. After about 6 months of practice and lessons the coach took him out to a range and had him shoot a bit in his venue and he struggled. The coach showed him some things he didn't know about archery that he never thought of and judging distance etc. he listened and saw that the coachs methods had some value that might help him. Later that year the guy shot in a his first tournament and won his class shooting a higher score than he had ever shot in his life. As the year progressed his scores were more consistant and yet showed some improvement. He won 8 more tournaments before the end of that year. Then he went to a national competition and finished in the top 10 and he'd never been even close to that in the past.

He's still shooting his bow left handed today and I know he won't switch arms for anything in fact he laughs about it. The coach told him archery and shooting are so dependent on hand eye coordination that you needed to be on level ground with people that shoot with their dominate eye. I made you do that and knew from experience that you'd actually have an advantage using your strong arm to hold your bow as opposed to a much larger majority of shooters that don't. You were able to shoot from a much stronger shooting platform and we turned a negative into a positive for you. In archery like all shooting sports at stationary targets being able to hold steadier will improve your score.

Do you think this guy thinks his coach was wrong? You and I both know the answer to that. He never asked his coach for a refund... just how good was his coach good enough to coach a few olympic archery teams that won gold medals and good enough to get this guy shooting the best scores he ever shot in his life well past his prime, just because he learned to shoot the right way. Sometimes you have natural tendencies to things and don't know it and when you put them to good use they can become an advantage. Coaches in many sports develop those and they wind up giving their athlete an advantage and that's all this coach did with this guy too, but his advantage turned into a winning advantage and that's why we want to start them out right if we can. Nature gave them the absolute best possible natural advantage by being able to support their weapon with their strongest most coordinated side and use their stongest eye to see with. That's as solid a foundation as you will ever get to build on and that's why they advocate teaching it that way today in firearms and archery. Regards, CA

 

[REDDOG]

interesting story.

 

[Boskee]

reddog sent you a pm and you hit the bullseye on that one!

 

[ELKOHOLIC]

Boskee, You have always been one of the more knowledgeable people on this forum. I'm not saying that you are wrong, but I can tell you this technique works and is being used by rangemasters that are teaching LEO's to shoot. I've seen it work on people that have shot there whole life to a female that had never picked up a gun. I guess I'm saying I don't think it's any harder to do this than to learn to shoot with your other hand.

By the way, I shoot my bow right handed. I feel more comfortable shooting rifles and shotguns left, but I shoot ok right-handed. It sounds like you have your mind made up so I guess this is more for the sake of argument, but something think about.

 

[Boskee]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-04-10 AT 09:45AM (MST)[p]Elkoholic I did say your method would work if you read my posts. But I did try to explain why there are advantages to the other method and why many have rethought the old ways. Anybody can over come just about anything if they set their mind to it, but when you are lucky enough to wind up with a natural advantage you may want to use it. I understand why you feel the way you do but I'm left eye dominate and right handed like you. An observant NRA instructor figured it out when I was getting my hunter safety card as a kid and suggested I change and I did. My wife and I both shoot left handed but are right handed and we have shot in the past for Hoyt, High Country, Mathews and Jennings archery companies at different levels. I used to work in the firearms business and let's just say that I've probably shot more rounds in 6 months than most will shoot in their entire lives. That doesn't make me a better shot then anyone else but it did give me a lot more experience shooting than most, and I spent time on the range almost every day.


I speak from first hand practical experience about how effective it can be not just because it's the only way. You and I know it's certainly not the only way, but it's certainly something every parent that wants their kid to shoot should consider if they have what some percieve to be "the problem" when in reality it's an advantage. Most individuals don't think about things in those kinds of terms because they don't think about the mechanics of off hand shooting and realize that using your strong arm can be beneficial in some venues. It's a gift in some ways and a curse in others as you know, in the shooting world it can be a gift but you have to know what it is in order to use it. You're 100% correct in that in can be done both ways, but the "the curse" isn't all that bad no matter which method you use to overcome it, afterall we both worked it out. The important thing is to work with the child and find a method that works for them.

 

[ELKOHOLIC]

Fair enough. In all honesty I wish I felt as comfortable shooting righty as I do lefty. Sounds like I could have worked it out. Most of my guns are right handed hand me downs anyway. I still by right handed bolt actions because they are cheaper, I'm used to operating them, and I want my kids to have them some day.

 

[Boskee]

Elkoholic, I've shot far more right handed guns in qualifying them by a huge margin than I have left handed guns. The odds are that your kids are probably right handed anyway so you planned ahead.

 

[DesertDiesel2500]

I started shooting seriously when I joined the Marine Corps. There I received excellent instruction regarding marksmanship. I later transferred to the US Army and attended sniper school. While in the Army I was an (18B) Weapons Sgt and I taught shooting and tactics to soldiers all over the Middle East and SE Asia. I'm no longer in the Army, but I am working for a local Police Department where I served as a sniper for 6 years and a firearms instructor for over 10 years. I also attended the Phoenix Police Departments sniper school.

What I can tell you is that each and every school I attended taught that if you are left eye dominant. Shoot left handed. PERIOD! NO IFS ANDS OR BUTS ABOUT IT!

I have a son that is 14. He is right handed and left eye dominant. He has never and I repeat, never shot a rifle right handed. The first thing I ever did with him, prior to allowing him to shoot was test his eye dominance. I then forced him to shoot left handed. With practice, he has become a pretty darn good shot.

 

[Huntnfever]

I have a uncle that was a marksmen in the army shot right handed left eye dominant, and a cousin in the air force shoots left handed right eye dominant...dont ask me how they do it but they can shoot...maybe you might just let them shoot how they want and is comfortable for them..

has anyone seen my kittie

 

[Califelkslayer]

I'll try to sum this up. IMO it's better to use your dominate eye. Since I don't I know you naturally overcome by closing your dominate eye. After shooting 1,000s of rounds a year for 30+ years I feel I could learn to mount and shoot lefthanded in a couple of weeks of shootin daily BUT most of my guns are autoloaders and I ain't gonna replace them.

I do know that before lasik surgery my right eye was startin to really hinder me. Now, there is very little difference so i feel the disadvantage isn't that great BUT I've never been able to shoot with both eyes open so I really don't know.