Hunters Beware!

>NWF I went to there web
>page and I didn't see
>anything supporting hunting WHY?


***They are not a group formed for hunting rights per se. Please click on this link and read the entire page for what they stand for and in particular note the bold sentence where they state they are in this with sportsmen (a definition of a hunter for many of us, but maybe not for stoney, WH, or some others in their camp) and all others interested in conservation of wildlife and the betterment of habitat throughout the country. That does include all species, including the wolf that is pictured, so stoney can call them pro wolf if he'd like, just as he is calling us the same. However, there is a big difference in using that word like stoney is and lumping us all together like we are out to fill the west with wolves and ruin his way of life because it's just not accurate or we would not have fought for state rights to delist and get them under control, but rather to let them propagate and run rampant everywhere.


http://www.nwf.org/Who-We-Are.aspx
 
Topgun & 4100fps,

I never accused you guys of not helping in the delisting and the getting management by the State GF Dept's.

All I am accusing you of is plain old flat out ignorance of not knowing what the National Wildlife Federation is and has been doing for many many years. Just read down through the sit5e and see much of the hype, drivel and completely inaccurate or only telling part of the real story lies

For instance what about their blurb about how the Polar Bears are in a steep and never ending slide into oblivion. Pure BS and propaganda to get the little ole lady bird watcher, tree huger, bunny huger types to send them the money. Big money.

Then you have the state WF's being led around with a ring in their nose and they have fought the natural resource production industry from the get go and are alway on some left green radical mission. Last year the NMWF tried to get with the help of our US Senator earth firster Martin Heinrich to get a bill passed to make the Valles Caldera put into a National Monument status. It would have allowed hunting but with no clear guarantee that it would be for the long haul and do you realize that over the I think 465 National Monuments only 65 allow some type of hunting.

If I had the time or the inclination I could list a whole lot of reasons that the conservative hunter and anglers do not support the WF. The WF's hate public lands livestock grazing, logging , mining, oil development and fight private property owners at every opportunity.

But then it is hard to change the mind of a progressive and even if I ferreted out all of the info you seem to can't get a grasp on, it would do no good . Your minds are made up and that is all there is to it.

I know Randy has been a gentlemen for the most part and he stated he does not belong to any of these organizations that I have written about and that is great. A man in his shoes can't afford to be on one side or the other for the most part as he would lose his audience rather quickly it would seem.

For you to be in self denial about Ted Turner is absolutely mind boggling. God man just do even the tiniest bit of research into the Ted Turner Endangered Species Program and the Turner Foundation he mans and funds and you will soon connect the dots.

Oh well it is fun seeing how some of you guys are wired.

I am only lumping a select few of you whom are outnumbered badly when it comes down to basic conservative philosophy versus progressive philosophy.

You guys have to understand that I come from a long line of homesteader, freighter, rancher, guide, taxidermists and my family have taken four of the biggest muley bucks ever killed in Colorado to our credit. We were and are still good stewards of our land and the natural resource and it wildlife.If we hadn't been and still are, we would soon be out of business.

For me personally I don't make much money and I like what I do and I think I have the best job in the world and my office is out in the woods in The Gila Wilderness or the Aldo Leopold Wilderness or the Blue Range Wilderness areas in both NM and AZ and I hate four wheelers and don't own one or never will,

I'm damn sure not in it for the money. I do however like to keep the wolves away from my door literally and figuratively and pay my bills and support my wonderful family.

What I do not like are the progressive supposed benign conservation groups that are and have been a huge part of the problems in the west for many years.



.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-05-14 AT 06:54AM (MST)[p]Listen closely stoney. I did not say that I belonged to any of those organizations now did I? I also don't believe or remember any of the other members saying they did either! Also, for your information my opinion of Ted Turner leans much more to the negative side than you could ever imagine, so quit telling me what I belong to and what I believe in because you don't know me from a can of paint! Marrying Hanoi Jane is all you need to mention to get me started on Ted Turner! Yes, he and many others use their money for a lot of things that many of us don't care for, but it's America, so like it or not! If you don't like it, there are many ways other than getting on the internet and blasting away at all of us that may be in your camp and more than willing to help you if you didn't go off the deep end like you do and post like you're a nutcase! IMHO you lean as far or further to one side than all these organizations lean the other way and neither way is doing anyone any good. Get back to the middle more moderate scheme of things and work with all of us on what you cherish because it's the same things we do and your rants toward us aren't helping you one bit!
 
Everything is about you and your family stoney, The world is small and it stays the same and everyone is threatening to you.
I get it, I grew up in a town where that kind of thinking prevails.

Problem is some of your perceived threats are true, The world is changing fast, people are everywhere, recreation and resource extraction are competing for the land just like they always have. The west is shrinking, America is bigger than you could possibly imagine, And Catron County is changing.

I suggest therapy, and possibly group sessions with other folks who feel the same overwhelming pressures as you, PM me and I will tell some folks to contact in some other sagebrush rebellion holdouts.
 
Topgun,

I never said you belonged to these groups. What I did say you are in self denial or ignorant to what the mission of these groups are.

Piper,

I only bring my family and background into the pictures because some of you need to know whom some of the true conservationists were and are. It is not the green liberal progressive conservation groups. They operate on too much radical money supporting environmental causes by the likes of the Pew, Joyce, and Turner Foundations.

For you to deny this is short sighted at best and totally clinging to the sheeple's path down the trim rose path.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln.

As far as Catron County, NM goes we are holding our own pretty well and we will keep up the fight for what is right irregardless of the huge progressive sheeple alliances against us.

Thank you and have a very nice day.
 
Stoney,

Many of the groups your proclaiming to support are the very ones that are attacking your heritage. They are slipping in on this energy crisis among other things.

[




I wanted to take a scalp,but the kill was not mine.
 
4100fps,

I don't support the kinds of things in the above video. I feel for those ranchers in their suffering for what is taking place there.

Overall I think the US has cleaned up it's act a lot with the Clean Air and Water Act and with all of the EPA actions to rein in such abuses. I do not support the big industry giants whom rape the land. Evidently you have some crooked politicians on the take for those atrocities to be happening under their very noses.

The groups I support are SCI, NRA, RMEF part of the time, AZ/NM Coalition of Counties, Cattle Growers, Farm Bureau and so forth.

I think man with its Billions and growing population does have an effect on the climate but I don't agree with the extremists on boths sides of the spectrum, for instance Al Gore. Itseem one only has to follow the money on any issue and you will sonn get to the root of the problem.
 
I noticed those ranchers were driving newer gas guzzler trucks, using plastic buckets, food pellets, wearing synthetic clothes, metal roofs on their barns, steel fence posts and barbed wire. I wonder how they heat their house or where they get their electricity.

Eel
 
eelgrass,

I see many, many hunters driving $50,000 trucks pulling $35,000 camp trailers and their buddies are behind driving a $40,000 truck pulling a trailer loaded with four $10,000 four wheelers.

Here on Hwy. 180 in western NM during the hunts it is a steady stream of them.
 
Dear Modern hunter,

The hardest part of the whole wolf issue for me to understand is how a self proclaimed intelligent, modern hunter embraces (or steps aside and allows) wolves in their backyard. It is not clear to everyone the only place a wolf can exist without a bunch of conflict is in a huge, wild expanse of unpopulated wilderness, i.e. Alaska, Canada & Siberia. Wyoming, Idaho, Montana, Arizona, Utah, Colorado, Oregon, Washington and New Mexico do not have these types of habitats suitable for a wolf to live without lots of conflict and a large impact on ungulates and hunters. Why would you, the MH (Modern Hunter), simply say, "Well they (wolves) are here, so we are just going to have to live with them." Why are you willing to give up your healthy herd of ungulates to support a pack of wolves? Wolves you will probably never see with your own eye's. Why would you even attack other hunters who are fighting to get wolves down to the lowest numbers possible? Is it not clear to you that the people who want wolves are often the people who want YOU to give up your hunting to support wolves?

I always thought the wolf issue was going to be something hunters could unanimously agree on and stand together on. But, as it turns out, it is completely the opposite...WHY???

What is it that you, the MH, see that I am missing?
 
>Dear Modern hunter,
>
>The hardest part of the whole
>wolf issue for me to
>understand is how a self
>proclaimed intelligent, modern hunter embraces
>(or steps aside and allows)
>wolves in their backyard. It
>is not clear to everyone
>the only place a wolf
>can exist without a bunch
>of conflict is in a
>huge, wild expanse of unpopulated
>wilderness, i.e. Alaska, Canada &
>Siberia. Wyoming, Idaho, Montana,
>Arizona, Utah, Colorado, Oregon, Washington
>and New Mexico do not
>have these types of habitats
>suitable for a wolf to
>live without lots of conflict
>and a large impact on
>ungulates and hunters.
>Why would you, the MH
>(Modern Hunter), simply say, "Well
>they (wolves) are here, so
>we are just going to
>have to live with them."
>Why are you willing to
>give up your healthy herd
>of ungulates to support a
>pack of wolves? Wolves
>you will probably never see
>with your own eye's. Why
>would you even attack other
>hunters who are fighting to
>get wolves down to the
>lowest numbers possible? Is
>it not clear to you
>that the people who want
>wolves are often the people
>who want YOU to give
>up your hunting to support
>wolves?
>
>I always thought the wolf issue
>was going to be something
>hunters could unanimously agree on
>and stand together on.
>But, as it turns out,
>it is completely the opposite...WHY???
>
>
>What is it that you, the
>MH, see that I am
>missing?

***If you had any common sense you would know the one thing that you are missing is saying we need to get them to their lowest numbers because it would be violating the agreed upon numbers to keep them from being relisted on the ESA. The states must maintain at least the agreed upon minimum number of breeding pairs and total numbers so that they are not relisted under the ESA and allowed to get completely out of control like they were before delisting. Not once in any post that you've made, including this one, regarding wolves have you ever made one useful comment. Here is your chance. What would you do different within the law than what is now being done to control their numbers? We're all listening for a logical, meaningful post if you have it in you!
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-05-14 AT 11:26PM (MST)[p]Thanks for sharing the "Adopt A Wolf" link from the National Wildlife Federation website, quest. Hope some of the folks take time to read it. Everyone interested in this issue can read who's for and who's against.

I have to admit, I am thankful for all wild big games species and the lands it takes to support and sustain them, but each in it's best place, based on the world that we live in today. Wolves in the vast wilderness of the north are great, but even there, in that great and wild place, if left unattended, wolves will determine predator boom and bust cycles that I personally would rather see leveled out by man, rather than wolves. Have wolves in the far north? I'd vote yes, have wolves in the north, unmanaged by man, no thank you.

Regarding wolves in the lower 48, there are two issues, or so it seems to me.

1. States that don't have wolves.

2. States have wolves that now.

I prefer having no wolves in the lower 48, none. I can't see how they can exist without constant conflict and constant count battles, that cause harm to sportsmen, in time, money, and sharing "our" ungulates. It's better to have them gone. Can they be removed, now that they are here? Not immediately but I believe in time they will be, because I believe it's the logical thing to do. Should we stop trying because a Federal Bureaucracy wants wolves in the lower 48? Clearly some, for some reason, believe we should. Maybe these folks fear the Bureaucracy is too powerful and don't want to awaken or agitate it, maybe they actually want some wolves but would rather not come right out and say it, maybe they believe wolves are equal in rights to every other species including humans and fire ants. Who know's why different people want them, maybe they want to hunt wolves regardless of the consequences, others might want wolves in the National Parks, kind of like an open range zoo, where you can just go see wolves once in a while. I'd guess it's safe to say, "anyone that wants wolves in the lower 48 has there own reasons". Again, I don't want wolves in the lower 48 because they aren't extinct and they are too troublesome to have in the lower 48 with our limited wild places.

Now, for those States that do not yet have wolves, I believe those States should build a legal fence around their State to keep wolves out, those legal fences take time and money, but it takes less time and less money to "keep wolves out" than the time and money that it takes to "get wolves out" after their embedded. Some sportsmen have been very critical of State's spending money to keep wolves out, suggesting that it's a waste of money to try to keep them out when there aren't even any in those States to "get out yet". Therefore it's a waste of public funds.

Wouldn't it be interesting to compare the money States invest every year in "keeping wolves out" to what States that presently have wolves spend trying to manage them. Any guesses as to which States are spending more public money, the "have wolves States", or the "keeping wolves out States"?

We've even had folks lecture sportsmen for not getting involved ahead of the wolf introductions (suggesting sportsmen were apathetic, etc), yet......... these same folks seem to be very critical of those who are spending time and money (yes, public money too) for trying to do the very thing they lectured us about not doing, before wolves were re-established in those States that now have them. It just seems to make more sense to me to try to get ahead of wolves before they get ahead of you, like they seem have done in northern Idaho.

I understand and appreciate those individuals that continue to resist and fight for what I believe needs to be done. I am sure those on the opposite side plan to continue to fight for wolves, and they will fight for more wolves, such as the National Wildlife Federation, which is asking folks to donate money to "Adopt A Wolf" program, since I'm certain NWF that doesn't mean they'd like you to adopt a dead wolf.

WolfHunter, you should take a page out of National Wildlife Federation's book. Start your own, "Adopt A Wolf" program. "Adopt A Dead Wolf" program that is, where us less wealthy sportsmen could go out to schools and libraries and such and let children, that would like to grow up to be hunters and/or live stockmen, know how they could go home and have their parents send in a dollar or two (what ever NWF asks for in they're program) to Adopt A Dead Wolf. Then take the money you raise and give it to really good wolf hunters, to go kill a wolf for the donors. Their own dead wolf! Ownership! That's what we need! Everybody can help "get wolfs out" by Adopting A Dead Wolf. I believe you'd be surprise at how much you might raise in such a program.

DO NOT STOP PUSHING BACK.
DO NOT MEET IN THE MIDDLE , AS GREEN HUNTERS DO.
DO NOT SAY, "OH WELL, TOO LATE NOW".
DO NOT SCORN THOSE THAT FIGHT FOR YOUR BIG GAME ANIMALS.
DO NOT GIVE UP YOUR OUTDOOR LIFESTYLE.

DO NOT GIVE IN, IT IS "NOT A GOOD DAY TO DIE"

DC
 
2lumpy,

Very well said and I personally thank you for your bringing out those pointed remarks. You are the true sportsman/hunter in my book.

I have been sorely castigated on this thread by three or four individuals and knew that going into my starting this "Hunter Beware" thread.

Like I have told Buzz H I would debate him anywhere anytime and do it gladly if I thought it would make more hunters/sportsmen aware as to what these so called conservation organizations are promoting and have stuck it to us for so many years, even before wolves were conjured up to foist on the rural people of the west.

Maybe we could have this debate in some central location mutually agreeable to all of us and make it one big, share each others thoughts, and how we can begin to merge possibly into a united front against our enemies.

Since we are under the big gun in AZ and NM right now maybe set up a meeting and need a lot of help maybe have it in Salt Lake City, UT as that would be about a days drive for most of us from both north and south.

If interest BuzzH and guys let me know and I will start the ball rolling. I think it is necessary for us to get ahead of the curve in the bureaucratic drive to shove the wolves down our throats.

Thanks you guys for a great debate and everyone of you are sincere and we deserve each others respect and consideration.
 
My idea is to have a Western States Wolf Conference and have it set up with possibly four major diverse groups with their representatives on each panel.

Have the major conservation groups of The Wildlife Federation, TU, and TRCP and one or two more organizations of that philosophy.

Then have a group of sportsman organizations such as Wyoming Sportsmen for Fish & Wildlife or the Wyoming Sportsmen Alliance, and the SFW, and WF groups. Then have the RMEF, SCI and these on the ground hunter/sportsmen groups.

Then have a panel of livestock growers such as the State Cattle & Wool Growers Association along with county and state agencies with the Game Depts. from all affected states, and have the Feds USFWS included.

Have the groups whom represent the species/habitat issues such as the Biological Diversity Center, Western Watersheds, Wild Earth Guardians and those folks.

Then end up with a final panel of one representative from each group into a summary panel to interact and see if there is any consensus or if anything is possible for everyone to move forward into this far reaching movement that is upon all of us, on the citizens of the west.

I think we would have a huge turnout and would possibly stop much of the in fighting and help the American public to understand everyone's issues, wants and vision of how hunting will proceed into the next few decades.

Just my thouhgts. What do you guys think? I am willing to work hard and be instrumental in starting to see this project into fruition.
 
Well said 2lumpy... Some great ideas. Wolf control is extremely extremely expensive. Trapping is as well. Some of the guys who are killing wolves are really good at it. There is an unnamed family here who has killed 17....
 
Do you guys not realize that hunters and people living the life that stoney does are outnunbered by a ratio that is mind boggling here in our country? If you don't, you better wake up and smell the coffee because there are many millions of people across this country and not just the Feds that are behind this "push the wolf down our throats" that you guys are talking about! When this whole wolf introduction deal started way back in the late 80s/early 90s and came to fruition in the mid 90s with the first releases, do you know how many millions of people testified in favor of it, backed it, and still are compared to the number like us that were not? Gentlemen, you are in self denial and are in a losing battle if you think you are going to eliminate wolves completely from any one state where they are now and damn sure not from the lower 48 like you are wanting! The Utah taxpayer money spent by SFW was wasted and didn't do one thing because there is no way that wolves will not go from state to state and I hope the "fence talk" in that post was just that and not serious, LOL! Guys, the best we can do is to legally play the cards we were dealt and be happy that we now do have state control to attempt to bring their numbers down to agreed upon levels. If any of you think that we have the numbers to counter all the nonhunters that want wolves in the lower 48, it would have been done 20 years ago before the first one was introduced into the Rockies in the mid 90s. That is a fact that cannot be denied by any rational person!!!
 
Where were all the concerned hunters in 1986-1995?

Must have been playing rip van winkle for 9 years.

I guess not crawling out of the bunker has consequences.
 
Where were all the concerned hunters in 1986-1995?

Must have been playing rip van winkle for 9 years.

I guess not crawling out of the bunker has consequences.


Nothing we can do about the past now! Back then(1986-1995) most people thought they could trust the highly educated wildlife scientists, nobody thought they would be using their platform to push an anti-hunting agenda...

I guess we will just have to make sure we make up for that misplaced trust in the next nine years...
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-06-14 AT 01:24PM (MST)[p]stoney, like others have said on this forum, for this issue and others, one man can make a very big difference in what happens in the future. This proven by T. Roosevelt, Jacky Robinson, Martin Luther King, Mahatma Gandi, Nelson Mandella, Stalin, Churchill, and Lincohn, Reagan, Obama, and many, many others. One man is as the catalyst, the rest reacted to a single man/woman's actions.

Cast your bread on the water stony!

If your cause is worthy, if your timing is right, if you have the commitment and the depth of character, you can "CAUSE" change.

DO IT! START IT! IF IT HAS LEGS IT WILL RUN. PICK AN MESSAGE, PICK A TIME, PICK A LOCATION, INVITE THE FOLKS AND SEE WHERE YOU CAN MOVE IT.

You never shot a bull, nor roped a steer, setting on your front yard swing.

DC
 
Wolfhunter,

Good luck putting the genie back in the bottle...

And thanks for nothing between 1986-and delisting. Your "help" was greatly appreciated.
 
BuzzH,

Sounds like a lot of sour grapes to me.

I don't know where everybody was at up there but down here we have been in the trenches and battling with every thing we've got from the get go.

Topgun,

We know the average citizens were pro wolf for the most part but they don't have any8 skin in the game. Our Congressmen look at whom is affected and act accordingly. Look at the wolf delisting. Those of us whom were involved worked hard and got the necessary votes to pass it to the screams of bloody murder from the radicals.

We may be outnumbered but not out powered.

Education of the sheeple will turn the tide eventually but never win the poularity contest. We will win the war however, someway or another.
 
Topgun and BuzzH,

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful citizens can change the world. Indeed it is the only thing that ever has." Margaret Mead US Anthropologist

"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." William Pitt, Nov. 18, 1783.
 
Buzz,

I do not plan on putting the genie back in the bottle... I just plan on killing the genie and making a comforter out them. We all should just stick to what we do best!!!

My area will NEVER be over run with wolves...I am not alone in this mindset either. Lots of locals are investing in our own future. Our days of trusting in the "officials" are over!

If you really are for helping the the next generation of hunters, what will you be doing the next nine yearsBuzz?? Hopefully not wasting time and energy talking down to people and driving wedges...
 
stony, as you say, we can't undo who did what or when it was done from the past. We can be frustrated, disappointed, disheartened, or disillusioned with those that we're in the fray or those that weren't but the question now is, who will be standing in the gate, who will be throw pitches and who will be watching from the bleachers, the same as it has always been, in any struggle.

I'm with you.

Some seem to be saying they'll be watching, some will certainly be standing in the gate.

The true test will be how we each respond. Actions, not words, separate the three groups. Regardless of the inning, get in, get out, or take a seat.

DC
 
Exactly what I've been doing for the last 27 years...protecting wildlife resources, public lands, and hunting/fishing and making sure we maintain equal access to those resources to all citizens.

Annnnyyyything else?
 
BuzzH,

"Equal access to those resources"??? Does very restricted and limited hunting to non-resident hunters serve your idea of equal? Heck no. You are a hypocrite Buzz. Even the NAMWC says the wildlife belong to the public.

Also how did you help protect public lands? Are you part of the movement to rid most public lands livestock grazers from the west.The WF's have been working hard against public lands grazers for many years.

In fact much of the Endangered Species business is being used to do just that, the wolf being the primary vehicle to do it. Don't tell me I'm crazy because many of us in the industry can see what has happened and is happening. Too bad you've got your blinders on.
 
I would have to agree with you stoney. The NR takes it on the shin. BuzzH I just cant see going down this road your on. My brother always said we might have lost this battle but there always another day.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-07-14 AT 11:45AM (MST)[p]>BuzzH,
>
>"Equal access to those resources"???
>Does very restricted and limited
>hunting to non-resident hunters serve
>your idea of equal? Heck
>no. You are a
>hypocrite Buzz. Even the NAMWC
>says the wildlife belong to
>the public.
>
>Also how did you help protect
>public lands? Are you part
>of the movement to rid
>most public lands livestock grazers
>from the west.The WF's have
>been working hard against public
>lands grazers for many years.
>
>
>In fact much of the Endangered
>Species business is being used
>to do just that, the
>wolf being the primary vehicle
>to do it. Don't tell
>me I'm crazy because many
>of us in the industry
>can see what has happened
>and is happening. Too bad
>you've got your blinders on.
>


***Hey stoney! Seeing as your home state of NM has one of the worst NR tag setups in the western states with only 6% of the tags going to DIY folks and the bulk of tags going to landowners and set asides to outfitters like yourself, I have a question for you. How much fighting did YOU do on behalf of NR DIYers as an outfitter when NM screwed us royally several years ago with an even worse system than you already had in place?

PS: You may want to also look at the record BuzzH has in Wyoming before you spout off using the word hypocrite, as he is doing more to help the NRs as a resident of his state to keep NR access to tags decent and affordable than anyone else I know out there and that is another FACT you may know nothing about!
 
TOPGUN I'm not the one that wants Wolves back in the lower 48. I feel, helping those that want wolves back is a bad idea! I'm entitled to my opinion as you are. The cost of NR tags are high enough and I don't think they should go up anymore. My opinion has nothing to do with BuzzH or stoney. This isn't personal against either of them. Please don't send me any more PM's...especially when you don't understand where I'm coming from.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-07-14 AT 03:00PM (MST)[p]> TOPGUN I'm not the one
>that wants Wolves back in
>the lower 48. I feel,
>helping those that want wolves
>back is a bad idea!
>I'm entitled to my opinion
>as you are. The cost
>of NR tags are high
>enough and I don't think
>they should go up anymore.
>My opinion has nothing to
>do with BuzzH or stoney.
>This isn't personal against either
>of them. Please don't send
>me any more PM's...especially when
>you don't understand where I'm
>coming from.


**I didn't say anything about helping people that want the wolves back and neither has BuzzH in any post on this site that I've ever read. You agreed with stoney in your post and his post encompassed a number of things like his other long rants have, so its pretty difficult to know what you're agreeing or disagreeing with when you don't post anything more than what you did! I don't disagree that NRs pay a high price and good tags are difficult to draw, but we're all NRs in all but one state. You can read my other statements that are factual in the posts above and my PM was strictly trying to advise you that it sounded like you were agreeing with the BuzzH statement stoney made, which dang sure is not true. Thanks and sorry for any confusion on either of our parts!!!
 
Topgun,

Hypocrite: "One who pretends to be better than he really is, or to be pious, virtuous, etc. without really being so."

I've said this before but Buzz took advantage of the really good deal NM gives to non-residents by drawing a once in a life time Oryx tag and came down and got a really nice one this winter.

Those tags as well as Ibex and bighorn sheep are on an equal drawing basis for both non-resident and residenmt hunts. The NMWF is working very hard to do away with the "Terk Decision" and go to a 90/10.

So what I am saying is, your idol just blasphemed himself by taking advantage of our great states's many, many opportunities for non- resident hunters when he is helping promote taking away non-resident hunter opportunity.

I'm so glad Buzz his making a difference for the resident hunters of WY but I doubt his sincerity in helping non-resident hunters get what they truly deserve. deserve.
 
Now back to the gist of this "Hunter Beware" thread.

The NWF was instrumental in bringing wolves back to the lower 48 and continue to this very day supporting wolves and their west wide proliferation.

What happened to Idaho's great States rights issues of being able to control wolves? I understand the ID Game & Fish Dept. has got a new lawsuit against part of the hunting/trapping helicopter wolf control issues.

None of the western states are immune to this Government Sponsored Terrorism project. With the help of the NWF and the state WF's we are all in trouble and especially in the upcoming changing the goal posts by the USFWS in enlarging and expanding the hoped for designation of the Mexican Gray Wolf as a distinct population segment, to enable them to get the radical and not so radical conservation organization's dream of wolf proliferation throughout much of the SW.

I think the NAMWC is enabling or at least an excuse, for some of these conservation organizations to bring back the lower 48 into a well rounded eco wildlife panacea.

What is already being talked about and has been for years that if the wolves don't run the ranchers and hunters off the public land they will try to bring back the Grizzly's into the SW. Our SW Grizzly's were an very ornery species that were taken out just the same as the wolves . The last grizzly killed in the SW was taken out here in Catron County NM in I believe 1938. The last of the wolves were taken out in the early 1940's.
 
So it agreed that we NEVER wanted wolves to be induced in the Northern States, ID Wyo,MT. Seem Like Stoney is trying to stop them from making that same mistake in his neck of the woods.
He doesn't want to clean up someone else mess down the road.
I hope you get it done.
Ask all those hunters in the northern states if they could turn back the clock on the wolves being induced, Do you think they would say Hell ya. LOL

Those groups that are for inducting wolves in NM and AZ isn't a hunters friend.

If it a sportman minded group and they are saying they are staying neutral on the wolf issue they aren't a hunter friend either.
So where does NMWF stand.


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-08-14 AT 08:22AM (MST)[p]>Topgun,
>
>Hypocrite: "One who pretends to be
>better than he really is,
>or to be pious, virtuous,
>etc. without really being so."
>
>
>I've said this before but Buzz
>took advantage of the really
>good deal NM gives to
>non-residents by drawing a once
>in a life time Oryx
>tag and came down and
>got a really nice one
>this winter.
>
>Those tags as well as Ibex
>and bighorn sheep are on
>an equal drawing basis for
>both non-resident and residenmt hunts.
>The NMWF is working very
>hard to do away with
>the "Terk Decision" and go
>to a 90/10.
>
>So what I am saying is,
>your idol just blasphemed himself
>by taking advantage of our
>great states's many, many opportunities
>for non- resident hunters when
>he is helping promote taking
> away non-resident hunter opportunity.
>
>
>I'm so glad Buzz his making
>a difference for the resident
>hunters of WY but I
>doubt his sincerity in helping
>non-resident hunters get what they
>truly deserve. deserve.


***Judas Jenny stoney, you are a real dousy as your analogies and statements are completely off base and ridiculous! Why shouldn't BuzzH or any other NR put in for those NM tags?
They are there for everyone to apply for and BuzzH certainly didn't do anything illegal or immoral to get them did he? He is not my idol and your statement about him taking away NR hunting opportunities is about as twisted as a lot of the other gibberish and garbage you post! How did he do what you are stating? You obviously have no idea in your rants and ramblings what he has done on the legislative front to help NRs, so either find out facts because you open your mouth or STHU!!! Finally, you didn't answer my question of what you did as an outfitter to help the NRs be treated fairly on NM tag draws when we got screwed a couple years ago even worse than we had been before they went to the 6% DIY max! Are you going to answer legitimate questions or just keep up with your BS and negative crap towards everyone that may disagree with your extremist views?
 
>So it agreed that we NEVER
>wanted wolves to be induced
>in the Northern States, ID
>Wyo,MT. Seem Like Stoney is
>trying to stop them from
>making that same mistake in
>his neck of the woods.
>
>He doesn't want to clean up
>someone else mess down the
>road.
>I hope you get it done.
>
>Ask all those hunters in the
>northern states if they could
>turn back the clock on
>the wolves being induced, Do
>you think they would say
>Hell ya. LOL
>
>Those groups that are for inducting
>wolves in NM and AZ
>isn't a hunters friend.
>
>If it a sportman minded group
>and they are saying they
>are staying neutral on the
>wolf issue they aren't a
>hunter friend either.
>So where does NMWF stand.


***Nobody on here has said that we disagree with stoney and his right to fight to keep the Mexican wolf from proliferating all over the southwest! I,for one, hope that not a single one makes it out of the retention pens that Ted Turner and others have them in awaiting release! BigFin even stated that he was willing to help stoney if he would just come down off his high horse and try to work with all of us instead of denigrating everyone for past problems and ones he feels still exist. We have been far outnumbered in the battles with the huggers and wolf lovers for a long time and were from the beginning when millions from all over the country commented in favor of introducing wolves in the Rockies. The Feds may have been the ones that did the actual releases, but it may not have happened if all the posple affected out west, includimg all hunters, had been as active as the pro wolf people! At least we have finallly fought a good fight and won our rights for each state to get them down to the agreed upon levels and still keep them off the ESA. This is really a states rights issue and it ties in exactly with everything else that the Federal Liberal agenda is trying to force down our throats state by state. You can see that just from the fights that AZ has had on border crossings, traffic stops, etc., as well as Obamacare that was forced on us even though over 60% of the populace stated they didn't want it. Sure it's easy to look back with your "turn back the clock" statements, but it isn't going to happen and we will have to learn from our previous mistakesand try not to repeat them. With that statement I wil reiterate that I'm 100% in stoney's corner in his battle with those smaller four-legged Mexican critters!
 
Topgun,

Buzz is on record as to how he basically hates and badmouths NM's landowner permit system and how he hates the outfitter pool of licenses and basically hates NM's whole wildlife management system and then he takes advantage our our great management system for non-residents by drawing the coveted tag he drew in NM this winter. He absolutely must hate the way NM manages our game species from his few rants on MM. He is pure and through a hypocrite. Plain and simple! You of all posters on here are the one whom should find out your facts before giving a shill a blank check.

The New Mexico Council of Outftters and Guides NMCOG helped institute the original 22% non-resident draw, with 10% to DIY non-residents and 12% to the outfitter pool. This was instituted when NM outfitters were first started being regulated and licensed by the NMGFD. This took a lot of negotiation on the part of the NMCOG.I was there from the get go as SW Director of the NMCOG and have been ever since. It took a lot of hard work and we got a good deal for non-resident hunters, and lasted for a few years.

Then enter NMWF, about four years ago they got State Senator George Munoz from Gallup to sponsor Senate Bill 196 which tried to undo the original 22%./ We worked hard and finally had to compromise at 6% DIY non resident to 10% outfitted resident and non-resident in the outfitter pool of licenses. All cow elk public draw tags were set aside for resident hunters. All NMGFD Wildlife Areas were set aside for resident hunters only.

I have been in Santa Fe many, many times on this issue and a handful of us older outfitters have fought the battle big time. We are still in the trenches with the NMWF and they are going for broke with their big team of 6 full time employees most, of it paid for by grant monies from the big enviro foundations.

The NMWF is working hard to limit non-residents to 10% and 90% for residents and they also want to do away with our landowner authorization system for both elk and antelope and this program has enabled out wildlife to flourish with especially elk and deer being now managed by the private landowners because they are seen as a value rather than a subtraction from their land.

NMWF has the same exact philosophy as BuzzH does so that is where the main rub between him and myself.

As far as Big Fin he hasn't formally reciprocated either. I would gladly like his help but will for sure have to get a better feel for his overall philosophy in the progressive eco conservation organizations. I feel he has more at stake overall with those groups than he does with an outfitter from NM.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-09-14 AT 09:05AM (MST)[p]>Topgun,
>
>Buzz is on record as to
>how he basically hates and
>badmouths NM's landowner permit system
>and how he hates the
>outfitter pool of licenses and
>basically hates NM's whole wildlife
>management system and then he
>takes advantage our our great
>management system for non-residents by
>drawing the coveted tag he
>drew in NM this winter.
>He absolutely must hate the
>way NM manages our game
>species from his few rants
>on MM. He is pure
>and through a hypocrite. Plain
>and simple! You of all
>posters on here are the
>one whom should find out
>your facts before giving a
>shill a blank check.

***What the heck does him hunting your state legally have anything to do with him not liking the way NM has allocated most of their game tags? Answer---Not a dang thing because you will find very few hunters that don't feel the same way, including myself, but they still put in for tags because NRs can't change your system. You'd be out of business if everyone boycotted NM for the way the tag system is set up in case you haven't thought about things from that angle and that sounds like what you think BuzzH and the rest of us NRs should do that thinks the NM system sucks the big weenie!! NM has some great areas IF a NR can draw them. I've hunted the Gila in 2010 BEFORE that last tag grab and have accompanied a buddy into 2b two of the last three years for mulies when he lucked out and drew a tag. I guess that makes me and the rest of the NR hunters who hate the system and have to live within it hypocrits too, LOL! You sure have a penchant for lumping people into categories and then hating them for eveything under the sun that you can come up with!

>The New Mexico Council of Outftters
>and Guides NMCOG helped institute
>the original 22% non-resident draw,
>with 10% to DIY non-residents
>and 12% to the outfitter
>pool. This was instituted when
>NM outfitters were first started
>being regulated and licensed by
>the NMGFD. This took a
>lot of negotiation on the
>part of the NMCOG.I was
>there from the get go
>as SW Director of the
>NMCOG and have been ever
>since. It took a lot
>of hard work and we
>got a good deal for
>non-resident hunters, and lasted for
>a few years.
>
>Then enter NMWF, about four years
>ago they got State Senator
>George Munoz from Gallup to
>sponsor Senate Bill 196 which
>tried to undo the original
>22%./ We worked hard and
>finally had to compromise at
>6% DIY non resident to
>10% outfitted resident and non-resident
>in the outfitter pool of
>licenses. All cow elk public
>draw tags were set aside
>for resident hunters. All NMGFD
>Wildlife Areas were set aside
>for resident hunters only.
>
>I have been in Santa Fe
>many, many times on this
>issue and a handful of
>us older outfitters have fought
>the battle big time. We
>are still in the trenches
>with the NMWF and they
>are going for broke with
>their big team of 6
>full time employees most, of
>it paid for by grant
>monies from the big enviro
>foundations.
>
>The NMWF is working hard to
>limit non-residents to 10% and
>90% for residents and they
>also want to do away
>with our landowner authorization system
>for both elk and antelope
>and this program has enabled
>out wildlife to flourish with
>especially elk and deer being
>now managed by the private
>landowners because they are seen
>as a value rather than
>a subtraction from their land.
>
>
>NMWF has the same exact philosophy
>as BuzzH does so that
>is where the main rub
>between him and myself.
>
>As far as Big Fin he
>hasn't formally reciprocated either. I
>would gladly like his help
>but will for sure have
>to get a better feel
>for his overall philosophy in
>the progressive eco conservation organizations.
>I feel he has more
>at stake overall with those
>groups than he does with
>an outfitter from NM.

***Just keep up with your extremist views and rants that present few actual facts and I can guarantee you won't be getting any outside help no matter what the fuggin issues are, including your Mexican wolf battle! In case you haven't noticed, you've only had one other extremist agreeing with everything you've stated since you started this thread and one other member that made a positive comment on one NR tag thought of yours. That tells me you need to sit back, regroup, and come up with something more than negative rants against everyone and change the many statements you make which are false, or you might as well hang it up and continue to fight a one man battle! Have a good day and I'm done with this thread because it's obvious that if you can't even acknowledge all the positive things BigFin has done for the hunting community you're a hopeless cause!
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-09-14 AT 08:49AM (MST)[p] Just wait a second stoney, Where were you when NMCOG successfully pushed to force ALL nonresidents to hire guides on big game hunts in MN?

IT was heavy pushback from other sources that caused the bill to be rescinded and created the compromise you now claim NMCOG instituted.

You don't want to talk about that do you? kind of like how wolfhunter doesn't want to talk about the Montana cow hunt slaughters.

Be honest stoney, tell us about the outfitters and how they successfully lobbied to make all nonresidents hire an outfitter in Mew Mexico.
This selective memory stuff doesn't work with some of us.
 
> Just wait a second stoney,
> Where were you when
>NMCOG successfully pushed to force
>ALL nonresidents to hire guides
>on big game hunts in
>NM?
>
>IT was heavy pushback from other
>sources that caused the bill
>to be rescinded and created
>the compromise you now claim
>NMCOG instituted.
>
>You don't want to talk about
>that do you? kind
>of like how wolfhunter doesn't
>want to talk about the
>Montana cow hunt slaughters.
>
>Be honest stoney, tell us about
>the outfitters and how they
>successfully lobbied to make
>all nonresidents hire an outfitter
>in Mew Mexico.
> This selective memory stuff doesn't
>work with some of us.
>


***Yep, and then he has the balls to talk about "self-serving hypocrit" like BuzzH, LOL! Now I'm done!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-09-14 AT 09:51AM (MST)[p]Piper & Topgun,

I was right there. The WF guys wanted to do 90/10 and the Game Dept. Director Marachinni (now is a board member of NMWF) hated outfitters and several other factors trying to absolutely hammer us and we were the one's whom offered up to be regulated by the state and NMGFD because we wanted to try and clean up the outfitter situation in NM. We had to bargain for the best deal. As a bargaining chip and leverage we said well fine, if we can't get a fair deal then we said make all non-resident hunters required to hire an outfitter. We knew exactly what we were doing and it worked big time. The phones rang off the hook to the legislators and Game Dept. It worked great and we never, never intended to make all non-resident hunters guided. We got a 10% non-resident non outfitted and 12% non-residnet outfitted. That is 22% for non-residents. Where in the west could a non-residnet get such a good deal? Nowhere. We weren't that damn dumb! We like DIY non-residents a lot because we still get a lot of drop camps and packing business from them. The legislators soon realized how much income the outfitting industry brought into the state's economy and level heads prevailed.

Now enter NMWF. What a bunch of clowns, always have always will be. Liberal greenie type hunters. You and Topgun aren't dealing with some dummy here buddy.although every post you try to bad mouth me. Well sir you don't even know what we have been thgough in dealing with these clowns and trying to work hard to keep non-resident hunters with the very best we can. We damn sure don't get any help in that Dept. from the NMWF. They cling to the NAMWC excuse as they thing all of the wildlife belongs solely to them and the non-residents can have a small token or pittance of what their selfish and greedy mind set would maybe allow them. This is Mr. Buzz Hetticks sole goal in life. Yet he takes advantage of the wide open draw (which he dearly hates and lobbies against)on Oryx when he probably wouldn't have every drawn under a 90/10 split. Hypocrite. Understand that guys? Pretty darned simple.

Get a life Piper and understand the issue before you pipe off again. I don't care if you hunted in NM twenty times (you keep coming back) we still have the very best system of Wildlife management in any western state as well as more opportunity for everyone including non-residents but the NMWF is working very hard against us.

Now is that so darned hard to understand?

Oh, and Trout Unlimited works hard against the industry at every chance they get and have been a thorn in our sides for many years here in NM and yet Big Fin sticks up for them. What does he stand for? I want to hear where he stands on conservative conservation issues versus liberal radical eco conservation groups and their agenda and issues, and especially how he views the WF's even though he claims he belongs to none. Let him take a stand. I think he a great person but we are talking some serious issues that are confronting our industry and there are some of these big conservation groups that are not necessarily our friends.
 
I understand the issue, and you trying to put a smiley face on it doesn't work.
The 22% bill came about because of those phone calls and Emails from regular people and nonresident tourists, it wasn't designed by the outfitter industry.
The recent cut in nonresident tags was related to pressure from the 12% excess given to outfitters.

Get a life stony, get a real job and contribute, then see through the eyes of real people what the lobbyists and commercial pressures are doing to the sport of big game hunting.

Its about a much loved recreation and sport for most of us, not a commercial enterprise designed for a few to make money.
Those two interests have always been against each other, there is no win-win on that, we are dealing with a shrinking finite resource here.
 
piper---I'm glad you're still in this responding to him because after reading that last BS post he put up all I could do is shake my head and chuckle. How in the haydes he could think anyone reading it that knows anything about what really went on would believe the outfitters pushed for that NR ripoff because they knew it would backfire and get us more opportunity is unreal, LOL! Also, if he thinks NM is what he says when it's now noted by most as being near the top of the western states for lack of NR opportunity is also mind boggling! Just let him take this thread and talk to himself from here on out because it's no use when he posts horse manure like that last one that tops all the rest of what he's been putting up!
 
Stoney's a real saint. At least for those that make money off the wildlife resource. I certainly hope your there standing up for that resource when the ranching community wants to limit the amount of wildlife that compete with their livestock, or when there's a place to relocate other species of game, like Big Horn sheep.

Usually Outfitters are only trying to increase NR licenses so they can make a buck off of them. Not because of any "FAIR"issues.

BTW, Montana Wildlife Federation get no money's from the National crew.


I wanted to take a scalp,but the kill was not mine.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-09-14 AT 02:06PM (MST)[p]But it's ok for the gas station, grocery store, and sporting goods guy to make money off them but not the guy that got the hunters there in the first place?
 
What exactly does that mean Bob?
Sportsmen are the ones that brought big game back into the picture in the west, ever look at history?

I hope motel owners, grocery stores, gas stations, auto repair places, and lots of people make money off the residents and nonresidents during the annual hunting seasons.
When have those businesses taken anything away from the actual resource we all care about?
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-09-14 AT 01:24PM (MST)[p]Stoney,

The more I read your posts, the more I realize just how little you know about much of anything.

Since you hop around misquoting and never waste an opporunity to misrepresent the truth, how about we start at the START.

There are many court cases on the books, that clearly define ownership, if you will, of wildlife.

From the ancient and feudal laws, the American case law of the 1800?s, and many cases that have followed, the Public Trust Doctrine rests on these three principles (from Horner, 2001):

? Wildlife can be owned by no individual but is held by the state in trust for all the people

? As trustee, the state has no power to delegate its trust duties and no freedom to transfer trust ownership or management of assets to private concerns

? The state has the affirmative duty to fulfill trust responsibilities ? i.e. it cannot sit by idly while trust resources are depleted or wasted.

Now, before you go off on the "all the people" part....time to insert the fall-out of the Taulman/USO crap that went on regarding the commerce clause...S.339

Now would be a good time to take off the tinfoil hat, and put the thinking cap on if you can find it:

This is what 339 does:


Allowing states to distinguish and/or discriminate between residents and non-residents ensures the protection of state wildlife and protects resident hunting and fishing opportunities.

Protecting the public interest of individual states? conservation efforts. Sportsmen and local organizations are extremely active in the conservation of fish and game. They support wildlife conservation through taxes, fees, and locally led non-profit conservation efforts.

Respecting the traditional authority of individual states. The regulation of wildlife has traditionally been within a state?s purview. It is in the best interest of the state and federal governments to ensure that states retain the authority to regulate wildlife.

So, with that in mind, just how do you propose that I, as a NR, demand the state of New Mexico, to allow ALL Non-Resident hunters an equal chance at all the available tags in New Mexico?

What I MUST do as a Non Resident of your state is respect the LAW, and the AUTHORITY granted your states citizens to manage as they see fit.

The only recourse I have is to either apply for what the State allows me to apply for, or I can simply throw my sucker in the dirt and stomp my feet.

Like I've stated numerous times, I am not a hypocrite by applying for and drawing a tag that the Citizens of New Mexico allowed me to draw. Their wildlife, they set the rules, and thats via several hundred years of case law regarding the Public Trust Doctrine.

If you feel like fighting that, well, more power to you, and good luck with that, you'll need it. The laws are pretty clear in who owns the wildlife, the States right to discriminate against NR hunters, and there isnt jack chit that you or I can do about that. Further, I happen to agree with each State deciding who should have access to their States wildlife resources, and to what level they feel is appropriate to share with the NR hunters.

Now, as to you trying to make the NM oufitters look like the good guys, thats crap. If you truly believed that the NR's were being discriminated against, why did you bargain away 78% of the tags the first go-round? Further, if you really cared about NR DIY hunters, why did you not make it 11% to guided, 11% to DIYers? Better yet, why not ONE NR tag allocation of 22% to NR's and let each hunter decide if they want to hire an outfitter or not.

I know you wont answer that question, since you havent been man enough to answer a single question posed to you yet on this entire thread.

As to the last round of BS that went on with tag percentages in New Mexico, I asked some questions of several of those involved in that prior to the NR's losing a pretty healthy chunk of their 22%.

I dont blame the Resident hunters of New Mexico for asking for a bigger chunk of the antlered game there. I can tell you that throwing 100% of the antlerless tags to them as "compromise" is akin to only getting kicked on one side of your sack.

What I recommended to Robert Espanoza and several others, is instead of cutting the 22% of tags, why not reduce the number of transferable landowner tags and give those tags BACK to the Resident hunters. I also made a suggestion that if tag numbers were to be cut from the 22%, leave the percentage of DIY tags alone and make the cut from the outfitter pool.

As per always, the biggest cut was to the DIY NR's and the smallest cut in tag allocations was taken from the Outfitter pool. I know, that comes as real "shock"...right?

WOW, I'm sure glad that the outfitters in New Mexico were looking out for the average DIY NR hunter.

If you really cared about EITHER the RESIDENTS or the DIY NONRESIDENTS, you would have taken a closer look at your landowner tag give-away (that outfitters benefit hugely from), and started asking why people that own 10 acres of land are being given transferable bull permits.

BTW, Wyoming, Montana, Idaho, and Colorado, all are much more generous than New Mexico in regard to NR hunters. If you had the first clue about what you were talking about, you'd realize those states are much more generous to NR hunters.

If I were a Resident of New Mexico, I'd be in favor of dithcing the entire outfitter tag pools and transferable tag programs. It would be a win-win for Residents and Non-Residents. As a NR I'd gladly take a 90-10 split if the outfitter pools and transferable landowner tags were stopped. Both R and NR would have more available tags.

You're a joke, and couldnt make a sane arguement, even if you were.
 
As usual BuzzH has comes up with FACTS and it will be loads of fun to see, what, if anything, the OP comes back with to counteract those FACTS! I'm sure it will be interesting and real factual, LOL!
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-10-14 AT 06:10AM (MST)[p]#1. We all recognize and even the outfitters, that the landowner authorization allocation program needs a huge modification and you are very right many of the smaller landowners are getting valuable tags that other wise could go to the resident drawing pool. I have stated this on at least two or three occasions on my last 100 posts on MM. I and our board are working with the Game Dept to make this happen and working with the Pres. of the NMBH on this issue. I am working with our local Game Warden on some ideas and as stated earlier we think the SCR landowners would be based on not occasional use by elk but by estimated AUM of grazing including water, riparian, crop land and etc.

We are working on this issue as we speak. You are right, the landowner program is a big business to many of the bigger ranchers and the outfitters they lease to or hire to outfit their land. It could also mean many more tags to go back into the public drawing pool. I do not use the landowner system only on rare occasion as I am a public lands wilderness type hunter and hate the roads and the ATV's.

Now to the public draw system.

Were you there Mr. smarty pants Buzz? Hell no!

I was there during all negotiations the very first time and the last time with SB. 196. If I and my compatriots don't look after our businesses no one else will/ So guess what we go there well organized and with our allies to help us get the best possible deal we can for not only our selves but to get the maximum number of tags for non-residents.

Oh, and the Taulman AZ suit. All of us NM outfitters advised George not to do it but he didn't listen to me in a personal conversation with him and he didn't listen to anyone. I told George it would do more harm than good and it darn sure turned out that way. Things are just now getting back to normal in AZ for non-resident hunters.

I have been involved from the get go. When we (NM outfitters)decided to try and clean up our industry (very small at the time) by becoming regulated the NMGFD didn't want to handle or deal with it. Anyway between the State Legislators and finally the NMGFD they decide to regulate outfitters and guides. We went to NM Legislature that winter and went through a big round of negotiations between all interested parties.

The outfitters used as our goal of 30% flat out (no outfitter preference) to NR and 70% to residents.

We knew that wasn't going to happen but we used that as a starting point.

In the intense negotiations the opposition wanted and were stuck on 15%. No body would budge.

As the session went on the fireworks got lit and in the intense negotiations we said fine if is going to be a low ball percentage then we think maybe they should be all outfitted.

This was our game plan and you take it or leave it as I can get affidavits from several outfitters and others whom were there. When we proposed this the word got out and the phones absolutely rang off the hook to the NMGFD and the state legislators. It didn't take along for the other side to cave in to a 22% total 10% to DIY NR and 12% into the outfitted non-resident pool.

Does all of this make the New Mexico outfitters a bunch of low life no goods as some of you want other to believe. Heck no. Believe you me, there are a few lowlife no good outfitters operating out there though.

We proved beyond a doubt to the NM State Legislators how much our industry brings into the state of New Mexico and it is tremendous. We go to shows, advertise and bring in outside sportsmen along with their money that is vital and necessary for our local economies and also our state coffers with the 5.625% gross receipts tax we pay.

Am I a bad guy for wanting to see my local businesses prosper? I bring in much needed revenue to my state and my community.

I am not in the business to make lots of money and if I break even every year I am happy. I offer a wilderness experience and provide a service to mainly non-resident sportsmen but some residents as well. I offer one of the best horseback/mule pactrip wall tent hunts of anywhere in the western US and my good reputation speaks for it self Go to www.huntinginnewmexico to see some of what I do.

I am a proud man and take pride in my business and my conservative associations. I however fight hard against the liberal conservation movement.

I do not want to hear that all of this and everything I bring to this forum is BS and don't know what I am doing crap, Buzz, Piper, 4100, Topgun. You guys probably will never be conservative in your thinking so it is like for me to be talking to a brick wall with you.

The truth really hurts doens't it guys. You can't defend your beloved WF's and other liberal greenie conservation groups whom are doing the hunters more harm than good.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-10-14 AT 08:03AM (MST)[p]stoney: "I was there during all negotiations the very first time and the last time with SB. 196. If I and my compatriots don't look after our businesses no one else will/ So guess what we go there well organized and with our allies to help us get the best possible deal we can for not only our selves but to get the maximum number of tags for non-residents."

***Yep, and why do you want to get the maximum number of tags for NRs? Answer---Because a good percentage will probably seek a guided hunt or maybe a drop camp with an outfitter, DUH!

Stoney: "You guys probably will never be conservative in your thinking so it is like for me to be talking to a brick wall with you."

***Substitute the words "never be conservative" with "never be an extremist" and you've got us all pegged stoney, LOL!

stoney: "I am a proud man and take pride in my business and my conservative associations. I however fight hard against the liberal conservation movement"

Really?! We would have never guessed!
 
So what's your argument Topgun? Outfitters shouldn't try to cater to non-residents?

Either you are liberal, extremist, middle of the road, or what ever? All of your posts tend to the liberal progressive extremist side of any issue. Maybe I am wrong but thats the way you come off to me with your replys. I know I'm pretty hard headed but if you fill my shoes and have been where I have been and fought the battles that I have fought and are still fighting then maybe you could understand. I've tried to explain some of these battles but all you guys ever compliment me with is wearing a tin foil hat, being dumb and wrong on all of these issues.

Well mr. topgunner you better check out my history before you make unfounded accusations as to my being.

Like I said several times I would debate face to face with mr. Buzz anyday of the week and that goes for you and 4100fps, piper and yourself.

You guys don't even have a clue it seems, to the overall picture that this wolf program is all about and how it started and how it is being continually shoved down our throats by our USFWS and their backers, The NWF, TU and others as well as their money sources whom are the real players in this battle to change the way the west was won by our hardworking settlers.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Mar-10-14
>AT 06:10?AM (MST)
We
>go to shows, advertise and
>bring in outside sportsmen along
>with their money that is
>vital and necessary for our
>local economies and also our
>state coffers with the 5.625%
>gross receipts tax we pay.
>
>
>Am I a bad guy for
>wanting to see my local
>businesses prosper? I bring in
>much needed revenue to my
>state and my community.
>

That's a load of crap. Every one of those tags would be used each fall even if you and your outfitting buddies weren't in business. In actuality, more money would be filtered through the local economies if you had DIY hunters reserving rooms at local hotels and eating at local restaurants rather than paying someone to take them hunting especially when many of those outfitters and guides aren't even full-time residents of New Mexico.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-10-14 AT 09:24AM (MST)[p]>So what's your argument Topgun? Outfitters
>shouldn't try to cater to
>non-residents?

***My argument is that you are over the top on everything you post and extremely slanted in your favor on everything you state with absolutely no facts to back yourself up with! Nobody has said that you should or shouldn't cater to NRs, but when outfitters do it solely for their benefit with complete disregard to the DIY folks, it's pretty plain to see who you favor and it's nobody but yourselves!


>Either you are liberal, extremist, middle
>of the road, or what
>ever? All of your posts
>tend to the liberal progressive
>extremist side of any issue.
>Maybe I am wrong but
>thats the way you come
>off to me with your
>replys. I know I'm pretty
>hard headed but if you
>fill my shoes and have
>been where I have been
>and fought the battles that
>I have fought and are
>still fighting then maybe you
>could understand. I've tried to
>explain some of these battles
>but all you guys ever
>compliment me with is wearing
>a tin foil hat, being
>dumb and wrong on all
>of these issues.

>Well mr. topgunner you better check
>out my history before you
>make unfounded accusations as to
>my being.

***Nobody is making unfounded accusations against you and your ideas on me are not correct. BigFin and BuzzH have both sized you up for what you are with more facts than anyone needs to see. Your rants and ideas show you to be an extreme conservative that will not listen to anyone and to that you appear to readily admit. FYI, I lean to the conservative side on some things, but try to take a more moderate conservative stance in most discussions and I'm dang sure no Liberal, LOL! One thing I can assure you is that going off the deep end like you do on everything you post will get you nowhere fast!


>Like I said several times I
>would debate face to face
>with mr. Buzz anyday of
>the week and that goes
>for you and 4100fps, piper
>and yourself.

***What do you call what you're doing right now and not getting any support at all on this site, other than by another extremist in that of WH? You've been sized up pretty well by both BuzzH and BigFin with nothing in the way of facts to refute their statements. I'd bet that probably 99% of all hunters are not happy with the wolf situation, including what you're fighting down where you live regarding the introduction of those smaller critters. If you would come down off your high horse and quit criticizing everyone with a broad paintbrush, you'd find some pretty good allies for your fight, but not the way you are going about it on this thread Sir!!!


>You guys don't even have a
>clue it seems, to the
>overall picture that this wolf
>program is all about and
>how it started and how
>it is being continually shoved
>down our throats by our
>USFWS and their backers, The
>NWF, TU and others as
>well as their money sources
>whom are the real players
>in this battle to change
>the way the west was
>won by our hardworking settlers.


***I would have to disagree and say that most of us know one he** of a lot more than you'll ever give us credit for. That is your whole problem with the way you denigrate us, instead of reaching out for help without putting us and groups that could help you in your fight in the toilet!
 
>I am not in the business
>to make lots of money
>and if I break even
>every year I am happy.
>I offer a wilderness experience
>and provide a service to
>mainly non-resident sportsmen but some
>residents as well.

I don't think I ever heard a business owner state that they are happy to just break even. Perhaps the problem lies not in the way you argue the case against wolves but in the entire thought process of running an outfitting business and being happy to just break even. Most conservative thinkers believe profit is a good thing and that the profit motive is what drives a business not striving to break even. Sound more like you are running a charity based on a public resource.

I have no heart burn about it just seems odd for somebody to claim to be the greatest conservative since Ronald Reagan but you are proud to not profit from your business. Breaking even is a great way to go out of business.

Carry on

Nemont
 
Stoney,

Why should I have been at a negotation regarding wildlife resources, something that, by law, is delegated to the Residents of New Mexico?

I did make some phone calls to a few of the people involved during the S196 debate.

Also, if what you say is true, that you and your outfitter buddies wanted equal access to tags by both NR and R hunters, I wouldnt call what you did an "intense negotiation".

Frankly, I wouldnt want you representing a junior high speech and debate team.

You gave away the farm with your "intense negotiation", losing 78% of the tags right out of the gate. You really expect me to believe that the outfitters in New Mexico were not out for an outfitter pool right from the get-go? I KNOW you were, you were looking out for your business at the expense of everyone else, just the same thing that happens in every other Western State.

Then, in the second round of "intense negotiations", NR DIYers lost another 4%, while outfitters only lost 2%. Glad to see you "intesively negotiated" for the average DIY hunters, reducing their total permits to 6%.

I've negotiated things a lot more important than tags, and sat across the table from some of the best in the business. From the sounds of it, I'd really enjoy negotiating with your "best" in the outfitter lobby. Your "best" gave away the farm and you got pounded FLAT in the "intense negotiations". You lost big...and yet still call that doing your "best"?

WOW!

For such a strong outfitter lobby, sounds to me like the Resident hunters took you to the woodshed. Good for them, and I hope they continue to take control of THEIR PUBLIC WILDLIFE.

Congratulations?
 
I think were losing From the ancient and feudal laws, the American case law of the 1800?s, and many cases that have followed, the Public Trust Doctrine rests on these three principles (from Horner, 2001):

? Wildlife can be owned by no individual but is held by the state in trust for all the people

? As trustee, the state has no power to delegate its trust duties and no freedom to transfer trust ownership or management of assets to private concerns

? The state has the affirmative duty to fulfill trust responsibilities ? i.e. it cannot sit by idly while trust resources are depleted or wasted.
http://www.alliancewv.org/deer_farming.html
 
Sure I need to make a profit but many on here castigate and throw stones at outfitters because they think we are just out to get rich and do it on the so called "state's wildlife". Quite to the contrary I and many of my associates provide a service for the non-residents and residents alike for the license they hold to hunt the wildlife in question. We do not get the licenses, our clients do. We provide a service. Pretty plain once you stop and think about it.

All I'm trying to say is that I love what I do in helping my clients get access to and take in many cases the dream hunt of a life.

Do you belong to SCI Buzz? Maybe that would be a start in helping hunters of all walks of life.

Bring it on Buzz, I wouldn't even have you mow my lawn let alone
have you represent me with your puffed up ego. I've tried to compliment you for your hard work for hunters in yur states and it goes on deaf ears. You leave Big Fin out of the picture as he is highly capable of defending himself.

Answer me this Buzz, does the NWF serve your needs in the hunting world?

Did the NWF promote wolves before and after the Northern Rockies proliferation?
 
I don't have a dog in this fight but after reading 150+ posts above, my favorite quote was the following from Stoner: "As a bargaining chip and leverage we said well fine, if we can't get a fair deal then we said make all non-resident hunters required to hire an outfitter. We knew exactly what we were doing and it worked big time. The phones rang off the hook to the legislators and Game Dept. It worked great and we never, never intended to make all non-resident hunters guided."

I find it laughable that the NM guides and outfitters advocated that 100% non-residents should have to be guided. Now, Stoney has revealed that this was merely a negotiation tactic that was actually meant to help and protect non-resident DIY hunters "and it worked big time." It had nothing to do with the the guides and outfitters' desires to line their own pockets at the expense of the little guy. If anyone questions the motives of NM guides and outfitters, Stoner can get an affidavit from a fellow NM outfitter who was present at the negotiations -- and who coincidentally would have greatly benefited from such a requirement.

Sounds like revisionist history at its best.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
 
>Sure I need to make a
>profit but many on here
>castigate and throw stones at
>outfitters because they think we
>are just out to get
>rich and do it on
>the so called "state's wildlife".
>Quite to the contrary I
>and many of my associates
>provide a service for the
>non-residents and residents alike for
>the license they hold to
>hunt the wildlife in question.
>We do not get the
>licenses, our clients do. We
>provide a service. Pretty plain
>once you stop and think
>about it.


***I seriously doubt that anyone thinks people are trying or going to get rich as an outfitter! What we do think and know with facts to back us up is that outfitters are tying up land and the bulk of NR licenses in many areas, thus making it much harder for the DIY guy to have a hunt on lands that used to be open without being overrun by the masses like a lot of public ground we're left with. Your tag grab, and that's exactly what it was, served nobody other than outfitters and residents when it was pushed through and your claims of doing that first run on them to help NRs gain a better share was about as hard to believe and ridiculous as it gets, LOL!

>All I'm trying to say is
>that I love what I
>do in helping my clients
>get access to and take
>in many cases the dream
>hunt of a life.

>Do you belong to SCI Buzz?
>Maybe that would be a
>start in helping hunters of
>all walks of life.

***Funny you mention SCI because it's now about the biggest farce of an organization at the top with it's "Trophy Books", including pen raised "estate" animals that are put out for slaughter in tight quarters and are not even fair chase elligible. They do a lot of good, but again thay have one he** of a clique at the top running the whole organization and all they are is a bunch of "good old boys" trying to see who has the bigger wang! Look into it closer like you keep asking if we're doing on the organizations you're dissing in your posts hereand you'll find thousands of memebr and nonmember s across the country that aren't happy with the way it's run!

>Bring it on Buzz, I wouldn't
>even have you mow my
>lawn let alone
>have you represent me with your
>puffed up ego. I've tried
>to compliment you for your
>hard work for hunters in
>yur states and it goes
>on deaf ears. You leave
>Big Fin out of the
>picture as he is highly
>capable of defending himself.

***Yep, there's another good one to get us on your side, LOL!

>Answer me this Buzz, does the
>NWF serve your needs in
>the hunting world?
>
>Did the NWF promote wolves before
>and after the Northern Rockies
>proliferation?
 
Hawkeye---Glad you caught that one because it may have been the biggiest piece of garbage he threw out at us amongst all the rest of the BS we've endured, LOL!
 
Since NM took all those diy tags away from NR, I could care less if they transplant wolf's there. Matter of fact, I might just write your legislature saying how this is a great idea.
 
>Since NM took all those diy
>tags away from NR, I
>could care less if they
>transplant wolf's there. Matter
>of fact, I might just
>write your legislature saying how
>this is a great idea.
>


REALLY... pot belly (grosventre) you sound like a spoiled little b!tch... While you are at it you should call Obama and tell him your to stupid to own guns while your at it. That is probably the most self centered anti hunter post on this thread!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-10-14 AT 06:07PM (MST)[p]Good eye Hawkeye, I was thinking the exact same thing. No wonder I can't draw a NM elk tag,and no I don't want to go guided.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-10-14 AT 04:42PM (MST)[p]Another question I've always had, is if the right leaning guides and outfitters, are of such strong moral code and "conservative".

Why then the need to interfere with the "free markets" and push for a set aside of tags that must be applied for through an outfitter?

I dont know a single "conservative" that wants the .gov to be regulating their "free markets".

Apparently, many of the "conservatives" only have conservative, free market ideals, when it doesnt line their own pockets.

Government regulation is fine when they benefit from same...if anyone else does, they're welfare recipients.

Funny stuff...
 
Hey you new Mexico guys should know a little about being self centered. I bet with hardcore "wolfhunter" like you the wolf's wont have a chance in New Mexico. When are you and stoney getting married by the way?
 
Pot Belly,

I am from the cowboy state. I do my wolf killing in your back yard...YOUR WELCOME!!!

You should really think about your statement. Your starting to sound like some of the other guys on this forum who run over every Outfitter, Rancher, Logger or Miner who makes a living off of the land. I guess people have been sucking on the government tit so long they have forgotten how a living is made in the west.
 
How'd we get here from this?

This is an old on going problem but is getting worse everyday. That is the undue influence the western states' Wildlife Federations are perpetrating on the unsuspecting sportsmen and hunters of all the western states as well as across the nation.

These state organizations, while promoting their brand of conservation, are powered and financed substantially by the National Wildlife Federation and the huge grants they receive from the likes of the Turner Endangered Species Foundation, Pew Charitable Trust, Joyce Foundation and many others. They have almost unlimited funds to push their very green agenda.

The MTWF and the WYWF were two of the main movers and shakers to allow and perpetrate the Northern Rocky Mountains Wolf Recovery movement that has turned the Game Dept's of Idaho, Montana and Wyoming upside down. It has forever changed the landscape of the west. They have a mission and it is not to save the wolves, only to use them as a pawn to stop all consumptive uses on the public land ans well as private lands. The NMWF is doing the same for the Mexican Gray Wolf programs in NM & AZ.

Along with these green to the gills organizations they were aided and abetted by the Teddy Roosevelt Conservation Partnership and Trout Unlimited among other radical environmental groups whom all operate under the guise of the North American Wildlife Conservation principles. They use the NAMWC as a cover for their mission.

These groups are no friend of the true and average sportsmen and conservationist.

These groups have duped the average joe hunter for many years, and continue to infect and poison true conservation efforts with their real mission to remove ranchers, hunters, loggers, miners and recreationist from the western landscape.
 
I have a question or two for you 4100fps... Are you from Montana? What occupation are you in that gives you such a hate for Outfitters and Ranchers???
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-10-14 AT 09:21PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-10-14 AT 09:17?PM (MST)

You don't have to thank me I have made a good living of the government tit, but making an even better living off your moms #####. You havent killed anything in my backyard except maybe my boner, an please come back because you did a great job last time. Where are all the pics of your wolf killing? Your friends are pretty funny too, how many screen names do you have?
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-10-14 AT 10:02PM (MST)[p]As I said about a dozen or so times, I have great friends that are Ranchers, and work to keep them free (to a point) of predators, and help on depredation issues all I can. We fence haystacks, build fence, and come calving time we help there also. These are pretty big operations. I have family that own large Ranches in Eastern Montana, and those are large as well.

You never see those people bitching about predators in public. They have better things to do with their time.

Outfitters are a different story. I don't have a beef with those that outfit on public lands, so long as they aren't looking for government subsidies. Nobody should be guaranteed a job.I'm not.

I'm a general contractor in Western Montana. I'm a sportsman, and I trap. I'm also working to keep trapping from being banned in our state right now.

What do you do for a living? What have you done other than SSS for Wildlife?

Why do you hate resident sportsman so much?

Why do you hate all predators so much?

Do you have trouble killing elk?

Do you have any pictures of wolves you've killed. If you do maybe we could PM back and forth.

Why don't you put your real name on top so others can see who you are?

Do you have ED?



I wanted to take a scalp,but the kill was not mine.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-10-14 AT 10:22PM (MST)[p] Wolfhunter---Im not 4100, but I will ask you why should people like outfitters who hammer the guts out of trophy wildlife for money? Outfitters who carve illegal horse trails all over the backcountry, Outfitters who by their very nature take opportunity away from regular recreational hunters, should we love Outfitters who lobby for tags that otherwise would be available in the general draws?

Should people like ranchers who lobby for and cause wildlife populations to decline and shrink? What do you think cow elk slaughter hunts are about? test and slaughter programs? Even many doe deer kill offs.

Did I tell you that there are 13 thousand elk in the state of Nevada? The BLM and forest service say there could probably be three times that many elk and it wouldn't degrade habitat, Don't kid yourself, the habitat is there, I mean there are 470 thousand cattle grazing there every year, there must be habitat. Did you know a rancher once sued the government because elk drank water out of ditches on public land that he had the adjudicated water rights to?
Guess why they keep having tag galore cow elk slaughters in Nevada?
I won't even get into domestic sheep and wild sheep, the loss on that is mind numbing.
No hate here, but it is what it is, and you have to support your interests, You would have to be dumb to support those that are against your interests.
 
2lumpy,

Thanks for stating the reason for this thread. It is about the real enemy that is against us and yet, a few short minded posters here refuse to even dig in and look as to what is going on and when I did posted up some links with damning and critical information about these groups, primarily the NWF, all I get is my sources are tainted and no good, and a ration of ##it.

Piper, 4100fps,

As far as outfitters go you have a very slanted, one sided view and throw all outfitters under the bus because they are taking away some of your selfish , greedy little opportunity to hunt trophy big game. There are damn sure abuses but most of my outfitter friends provide a needed service to our clients and we naturally protect their opportunity and interest.

Do you know in most states the average resident hunter can hunt each and every year for either deer or elk and the rub comes because the better trophy units are hard to draw and that is all they want is the trophy units, not just to be able to hunt. I hear it all the time.

Buzz,

Where are your answers to my two important questions regarding the theme of this thread?
 
Somebody's signature on MM once said, (paraphrase)

"If you want an argument, express an opinion on MM and wait".

Here's the deal stony and wolfhunter. No matter what your interest in the hunt and fishing outdoor outdoor lifestyle is, some one has an ax to grind against your style or interest.

If your a wealth man who hunts with a guide, somebody takes offense.

If your a poor man who contributes nothing but the money to buy an elk tag, somebody takes offense.

If your a two day a year hunter, somebody takes offense.

If your a 180 day a year hunter, somebody takes offense.

If your a do it your self hunter, somebody takes offense.

If your an outfitter, somebody takes offense.

If your a hunter land owner, somebody takes offense.

If your a passive hunter, somebody takes offense.

If your an aggressive outspoken hunter, somebody takes offense.

If you use wildlife to raise money for wildlife, somebody takes offense.

If your a politican, somebody takes offense.

If you mind your own business, somebody takes offense.

And, on and on, and on.

stony / wolfhunter, and others, do what you do, understand others will do the same, make your points, ignore their responses, inform your audience, let the watcher decide who's path they will follow. Use these forum to inform rather than argue.

stony, you had a point to make about green hunter organizations and how harmful they are, you made the point well, but you let those you offended get you mired in an entirely different discussion that took you off your important and original message and turned the discussion away from the green hunter organizations.

Don't argue, inform. Don't discuss, share. Don't respond, ignore the responders.

Make your point and let the readers and the watcher decide if your concerns are valid or not. If you want opinions, ask, you'll get plenty and most likely you'll get them from those you've offended, not those who agree with you, make sense?

DC
 
Good point! We need to work together. Now I'm planning on a Antelope hunt in Wyoming this year and might be able to swing over to H if I can hunt Wolves. By Sept. will they already be listed as predators?
 
2lumpy,

Great advise. I will try to do a better job. It always bugs me when the few whom don't agree with anything I say no matter what.

What is taking place here and you have it nailed is they always change the subject and Buzz still is dancing around the issue.

I have tried to present facts and they throw a slobbering fit when you point out the truth and whole story to them.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-11-14 AT 04:47PM (MST)[p]>2lumpy,
>
>Great advise. I will try to
>do a better job. It
>always bugs me when the
>few whom don't agree with
>anything I say no matter
>what.
>
>What is taking place here and
>you have it nailed is
>they always change the subject
>and Buzz still is dancing
>around the issue.
>
>I have tried to present facts
>and they throw a slobbering
>fit when you point out
>the truth and whole story
>to them.


***Geez, it couldn't be that's because hardly a single thing you've ranted about is valid, and there have been a number of things and not just one topic, now could it? Just one alone that stands out the most amongst all the BS that's been put out in your posts is that one about you outfitters getting us NRs a better deal by getting a law passed that everyone is required to be guided by an outfitter because you knew it would be reversed and you can show us another outfitter affidavit to prove it, LOL! That one right there finished you and this thread off for much meaningful conversation!
 
Your okay stony, here's the thing, some folks make a living (so to speak) defending a position or turning away a discussion. You're far from the first one they've debated the issue with, they've heard every possible piece of logic, opinion or fact from previous debates they've been in, long, long long before you came along. They have "developed" answers and techniques to divert or confuse any question, opinion or fact that you could possible present. Sometimes it's volumes of counter opinion, counter facts, or counter experiences, but they are well prepared for anything you might offer because they've heard it all before and they know exactly how to respond. If they can't do that then they change the subject so they can make you look wrong or misinformed, or self serving on a different issue, so they can say that your wrong on the other issue too, in other words, because you don't know anything about B you must therefore be wrong A as well.

You will never, ever, on never, win any of these arguments with these folks, there is no point in trying and you will become exhausted chasing them around the oak tree. Keep making you case, keep pounding the rock, ignore the guys telling you it won't work, just let them bark, do not get distracted, let them get exhausted, not you. Don't quit letting people know what's going on and what you'd like them to do, just quit responding to the folks telling you your wrong or self motivated, or foolish, or what ever. Keep your eyes on the target.

DC
 
stoney from what I've read I think most here including BuzzH are the same page. Some have a different approach to whats taking place and how to handle it. I'm more concerned about the groups in your first post. If its true are we be used for there cause.......?
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-11-14 AT 03:52PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-11-14 AT 03:48?PM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Mar-11-14 AT 03:44?PM (MST)

Quest,

Exactly, these groups have been using the hopeful and truly sincere resident hunters from the western states' Wildlife Federations. Just go to the NWF site and then go to see where they get their funding and you will be amazed I think at how they are at odds with the true sportsmen, consumptive users such as the livestock grazers, loggers, miners, energy production and etc.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-11-14 AT 06:14PM (MST)[p]>Your okay stony, here's the thing,
>some folks make a living
>(so to speak) defending a
>position or turning away a
>discussion. You're far from
>the first one they've debated
>the issue with, they've heard
>every possible piece of logic,
>opinion or fact from previous
>debates they've been in, long,
>long long before you came
>along. They have "developed"
>answers and techniques to divert
>or confuse any question, opinion
>or fact that you could
>possible present. Sometimes it's
>volumes of counter opinion, counter
>facts, or counter experiences, but
>they are well prepared for
>anything you might offer because
>they've heard it all before
>and they know exactly how
>to respond. If they
>can't do that then they
>change the subject so they
>can make you look wrong
>or misinformed, or self serving
>on a different issue, so
>they can say that your
>wrong on the other issue
>too, in other words, because
>you don't know anything about
>B you must therefore be
>wrong A as well.
>
>You will never, ever, on never,
>win any of these arguments
>with these folks, there is
>no point in trying and
>you will become exhausted chasing
>them around the oak tree.
> Keep making you case,
>keep pounding the rock, ignore
>the guys telling you it
>won't work, just let them
>bark, do not get distracted,
>let them get exhausted, not
>you. Don't quit letting
>people know what's going on
>and what you'd like them
>to do, just quit responding
>to the folks telling you
>your wrong or self motivated,
>or foolish, or what ever.
> Keep your eyes on
>the target.
>
>DC


***Not surprising to read that post DC, as it sounds just like what SFW and all the koolaid drinkers also do!
 
You really think posting up garbage from this organization supports any beliefs of your as FACTs?

See post 62 above, I've already pointed out what this tool is.

Thats like asking Defenders of Wildlife if hunting and trapping are viable methods for management of game animals.


I wanted to take a scalp,but the kill was not mine.
 
>You really think posting up garbage
>from this organization supports any
>beliefs of your as FACTs?
>
>
>See post 62 above, I've already
>pointed out what this tool
>is.
>
>Thats like asking Defenders of Wildlife
>if hunting and trapping are
>viable methods for management of
>game animals.


***Or getting an affidavit from his outfitter friend to prove he's right, LOL!
 
2lumpy,

Great post above... Spoken like a real veteran!

Stoney,

Keep bringing the message, like 2lumpy said, "the people who you want to inform are listening". It is important for all of us to look under the hood of these groups.
 
When are you going to answer some of those questions I asked? I answered everyone you asked, you've not reciprocated.

How about a wolf picture? I'm willing to trade.

Why no profile name? What are you afraid of.

Go ahead and look under the hood, but in doing so, make sure that agent giving out that info has been checked out too.

Propaganda is just that.


I wanted to take a scalp,but the kill was not mine.
 
I looked up both those groups... the MTWF and WYWF. I didn't see anything on either of those sites that would suggest they were against hunting. Now National Wildlife Federation was a different story... when I went to that site I didn't like what I read about the Wolf Recovery movement. I checked out this web page too http://www.greendecoys.com/decoys/trout-unlimited/ That didn't look good either. If your first post stoney is correct it doesn't look good for the sportsman but then there's the credibility on this guy http://www.bermanexposed.org/facts..... Your title says it all... Hunters Beware!
 
Quest,

The state WF's mostly claim to not be like or really go along with their mother organization the National Wildlife Federation. Take the New Mexico Wildlife Federation for example, they tried to distance themselves from the NWF pro wolf policy but couldn't really defend their position other than a couple of the board members personally did't want the wolves. This group of liberals have alway fought the conservative sportsmen in NM for years. Now the last about 6 years they have become funded through and with the help of the mother organization NWF with grant monies from the green Foundations and now have 6 full time paid employees with a CEO, Publication/Media guy, Administrative Assistant and three field men.

They put out a really nice news paper with a lot of glitzy and well done habitat and conservation projects they are doing but intertwined into this very well done and professional paper, is their propaganda in trying to win over the main stream sportsmen, fisherman in the state into their liberal camp and they have done a very good job of it. They fight my industry, the ranching industry (private landowners also), extractive industry and are on the liberal wrong side of most political issues such as trying to turn the Valles Caldera back to the Gov. and make it a National Monument. They were backing our very liberal Senator, Martin Heinrich D, whom sponsored the bill and whom used to belong to the most radical environmental terrorist group in US history Earth First.

On many issues here in NM the Trout Unlimited guys always jump right in and support the WF and they work hand in hand against the conservative sportsmen and anglers.

These groups it seems would like to have the lions share of all wildlife hunting opportunities and have unfettered access to all and any land or streams and want more land to go back to the US Gov. into public lands for their own playgrounds.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-12-14 AT 09:24AM (MST)[p]That last paragraph of yours says it all stoney.

EVERYONE read that last paragraph of stoneys and try to understand why he is upset, stoney says those groups are evil because of that, they are evil because they fight for the average sportsman.

Your lost in your own little world stoney, we should all fight for conservation and preserving the publics resource for the public, fighting extractive industry and the moneyed interests is an old and ongoing battle, but it must be done for the future of wildlife.

Because of you I'm going to join trout unlimited, I always liked the group anyway. Thanks for the wakeup call.
 
Stoney I've read your first post and others on here. If its true I'm sure there are sportsman out there that are looking into this.
 
With the dozens and dozens of environmental organizations out there, and the hundreds of millions of dollars they collect every year, if they were so pro hunting, why is almost every State Game and Fish Departments underfunded?

I would much rather make a financial contribution to buy extra Migratory Bird Hunting Stamps (all of which goes to support Wildlife Refuges) or State Upland Game stamps, or 100 other things you can purchase or donate to support our G&F Departments. I know they're pro hunting/fishing. (Well OK, California may be the exception:))
 
Why do you believe everything greendecoys.com says and nothing what the other people have for input.

Greendecoys.com is about as pure as the LA City Air.

11022012_Berman-kr-01.png
 

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