ID input survey on-line

S

Salmonfg

Guest
IDFG is asking for input on several issues: a proposed bonus point system; Landowner Appreciation Program rules; upland game regulations; and some miscellaneous rules, including use of sabots for muzzleloader seasons.

The link is:
http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/apps/surveys/10PublicInput/

There are also several open houses or public meetings scheduled around the state (see http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/cms/public/publicmeetings.cfm)

As always, input on these issues is very important to agency recommendations to the Commission and the Commission members as they deliberate rule changes.

Tom Keegan
IDFG Salmon Region Wildlife Manager
 
Tom,
Though I do not wish to see a point system put in place, Thank you for making this available to us here.
 
I am against it as well, but good to see they got it out for comment.

Looks like it will go through. I can't believe Idaho is going to go down this road.
 
I am and have been very much for it. Thank God they have finally came to their senses and now they should be able to raise enough $$ to start doing whats right for the game instead of the F&Gs bottom line. With the declining populations due to mis-management, Wolves, etc.. the raising of non-res fees last year was doomed to fail from the start. I feel the $$ raised from a point system along with reducing wolf populations is the only way things will be able to improve for our herds. And the fact that I have not drawn a controlled hunt tag in 11+ years now (and I don't put in for tough draws) I'm ready to play the points game.
 
Well good luck with the points Moosey, now maybe you'll draw ONCE in your life time for sure instead of having an EQUAL CHANCE EVERY YEAR -- Think about it before you wish to hard.
 
the problem is, if its optional and you dont apply for points, you will NEVER draw. you almost have to apply/purchase them if you want a fighting chance. even though i rarely draw, i realize there is no conspiracy and i have an EQUAL chance just like everyone else. such is life. i dont understand why people think this is the cure-all, i'll draw every year solution. guess again people, its NOT.

how about this. focus on the quality of our herds, turn more general hunt units into TROPHY units while still keeping them general. tell me one advantage of a two point unit...other than you get to destroy the potential of quality hunting. if you want a two point, shoot a damn doe. seriously, what is an advantage? why not make them a 4 or even 3 point unit.
 
deepforks- I couldn't agree more with your first paragraph.

"turn more general hunt units into TROPHY units while still keeping them general."
I agree but I think it should be done by making a general archery season and making the rifle hunt a draw only. IMO a general archery hunt will; force people to become better hunters and reduce harvest number while still offering opportunity.
 
No Pts but make the waiting periods longer if you do draw. Quit being so greedy wanting the license fee each year from people who just drew a tag.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-17-10 AT 12:22PM (MST)[p]I forgot to note that this survey has a fairly short window. Responses are needed by the end of the month (June).

Tom Keegan
IDFG Salmon Region Wildlife Manager
 
I know if I were an Idaho resident I would not be in favor of a point system at all. However as a non resident I am kind of for it though I would like a prefernce point option better. I am young enough that if I apply in ID for a sheep tag and it takes me 20-30 years to get the tag I will still be younger then the average age of sheep hunters today. It would be nice to get in on the ground floor of a point system for once, I was to young when they started it in Wyoming and in a lot of other states that I apply in as well. Im sure a ID point system is probably going to be a done deal at least for non-res anyways. Time will soon tell
 
As much as I hate it, I would pay more money again to offset revenues from the point system, if they stayed away from it. However, this attitude eventually turns it into a rich mans game, which I'm not. It appears, with this proposal, that there may be no segregation between "Trophy Species" and other big game. In other words you will be able to apply or earn points for both in the same year. If that happens, you will see a minimum of four times as many applicants for those trophy species tags. That's not going to increase your odds. If you want to see a great example of a point system, look no further than Washington. My permits before this year cost about $33. This year $52... and my odds of drawing in most instances went down due to the restructure to gain additional revenue. There are lots of people here in Washington with max points who are still waiting to draw a tag. Which shows, if your unlucky in the draws, the points aint gonna matter!
 
>I know if I were an
>Idaho resident I would not
>be in favor of a
>point system at all.
>However as a non resident
>I am kind of for
>it though I would like
>a prefernce point option better.
> I am young enough
>that if I apply in
>ID for a sheep tag
>and it takes me 20-30
>years to get the tag
>I will still be younger
>then the average age of
>sheep hunters today. It
>would be nice to get
>in on the ground floor
>of a point system for
>once, I was to young
>when they started it in
>Wyoming and in a lot
>of other states that I
>apply in as well.
>Im sure a ID point
>system is probably going to
>be a done deal at
>least for non-res anyways.
>Time will soon tell


At least you are honest about being Greedy and Not caring about future Generations WYO, it is all about YOUR sheep tag! Most of the guys just argue about themselves and what THEY are OWED because they never got their tag as a reason for ponints... IF more folks would be honest about it like WYO is, there is not a chance in heck that there would be points systems in any state. Because like WYO said it is improving HIS/HER odds at the expence of ALL those who come after him..
What's that Toby Keith song? All about ME, ME, me, me.....

Thank's for being honest WYO, it is very rare in this argument.
 
It's good you are asking for input, but an online survey might not give real data..anyone can do it as often as they wish, like the ballot box:)

I'm think the real reason behind the points is to make nonresidents feel they have to buy the license and applications each and every year and take in a lot of money for nothing real returned...Set the hook harder and take in more money by allowing points only for species combinations can't apply for. I heard OR actually made money this year on their nearly doubling nonresident license fees because too many felt were hooked by their points. ID lost last year on a 20% increase, yet offers a 10% nonresident cap on the draw, 4X that OR has after the tags are cherry picked in the guide draw.
 
If I didnt buy OTC deer tags every year, theres no way in hell I would give Id $150 just to put in for the draw.
 
The agency and commission recognize there are potential biases in any nonrandom survey tool. It's my understanding the survey response system is set up to recognize/allow only 1 response per ISP address, which theoretically limits stuffing the ballot box.

The original survey back in 2005 or 2006 was based on a random sample and was the basis for the Commission action at the time (selecting a squared bonus point system and some other factors). The current survey is designed to ask about some potential "tweaks" to such a system, like allowing people to opt out, allowing bonus point only applications for multiple species (as opposed to curent limitations on only applying for one of moose, sheep, goat tags) and during a wait period, how long one can retain points without applying, etc.

Tom Keegan
IDFG Salmon Region Wildlife Manager
 
It's pretty apparent by most of your replies against the Bonus Point sysyem, you have no idea how it works.

Points will be squared. You can draw five years into this with 1 point even after being behind. Look at Nevada's system which Idaho's is modeled after with a few tweaks. You can draw in Nevada with far less than max points for a hunt and many with max don't draw.

This is not a preference point system Like Arizona's and Colorado's. Do you even understand the difference? Apparently not.

I'd rather have a point system so F$G can raise some additional funds. Maybe, just maybe they'll do a better job managing big game herds in this state with the additional money raised per application.
 
So pretty much all they want is more $money$ and still I don't draw? Yes they need more money to drive there gov. trucks around with more authority than a state trooper? Besides that, so what you are saying is you can draw with max points and draw without max points? So everyone is going to draw? Its a no win cituation, lotto style or points style someone is not going to draw but now I have to spend more money for the same results, ya its only $6.00 for every specy? Deer, Elk, Big Horn, Moose Mt. Goat, Antelope? So thats 6 X $6.00= $32.00 each year oh ya I have three boys 12, 10, and 8. Now its $32 X 3. $96.00 just for them. Plus me.

Enough of my soap box. Because of the Wolves eating every Elk and Deer in the state the F $ G need to find other ways to raise money I understand.

TREE HUGGERS ARE COSTING IDAHOANS OUR ELK & DEER HEARDS!!! THATS ALL I'M GOINT TO SAY ABOUT THAT.
 
I think it's easy to decide if points are needed or Not,
WHAT is the average age of the hunter for ID if they are 30 and under points makes sense for them, if they average age is closer to 50 then points aren't a good thing because you will run out of life and money before you draw a great tag.
points is for the younger hunters period. IMO


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
It will be $12.50 to apply for a point ($21 for non-residents), $6.25 ($14.75 for non-residents) for the application, and $6.25 to participate in the point game. That's $75 for 6 species ($300 if you have 3 kids), and you never get a guaranteed tag, just slightly improved odds. Non-resident costs are higher

Just leave it as is...random draw. Everyone has the same chance! What in the heck is wrong with that???????
 
it is apparent to me u also dont know how IF&G works !! its all about the $$ thats why we have 2 units now that according to history & B&C & P&Y were trophy units but they are forked horn only hunts now !!! Eistein theory of rebuilding the tropht status KILL all the small ones ???? thats why we have way more tags available in the so called trophy units unit 40 is one of them they shoot the hell out of forkies for 2 weeks straight killing over a thousand a year & yet it is one of the hardest to draw so called trophy units in the state 195 tags {5 outfitter tags} why not try & manage the declining herds we still have left instead of trying to figure out how much more $$ & how many more people they please ??? split the seasons like colorado does open archery & muzzy only hunts in these units shorten the general seasons there are a bunch of better reasons than having a points system
 
Guys,

The system proposed by F&G will make odds worse (terrible) for anyone other than those who get in on the ground floor. We have spend the past 4-5 days running models on different systems, as well as modeling what the odds of different hunts would be with the Nevada-style system, and it isn't pretty. We don't support bonus points, but knowing that we will have them next year, we've proposed a bonus point system that will favor those with more points without completely (statistically) excluding new hunters and youth who aren't able to get in on the ground floor. Those in favor of the Nevada-style draw are not looking ahead to the next generation of hunters...

Please take a look at the Proposal and make any comments you'd like to see incorporated. Once the draft is finalized, we'll be submitting it to F&G and would ask for support from everyone to push for it over the F&G proposed system. Odds for all systems are shown in the proposal and can be viewed here:

http://elk101.com/2010/06/idaho-bonus-point-proposal-part-2/

There is also a downloadable PDF there that you can e-mail to your friends.

Thanks,
Corey
 
>Guys,
>
>The system proposed by F&G will
>make odds worse (terrible) for
>anyone other than those who
>get in on the ground
>floor. We have spend the
>past 4-5 days running models
>on different systems, as well
>as modeling what the odds
>of different hunts would be
>with the Nevada-style system, and
>it isn't pretty. We don't
>support bonus points, but knowing
>that we will have them
>next year, we've proposed a
>bonus point system that will
>favor those with more points
>without completely (statistically) excluding new
>hunters and youth who aren't
>able to get in on
>the ground floor. Those in
>favor of the Nevada-style draw
>are not looking ahead to
>the next generation of hunters...
>
>
>Please take a look at the
>Proposal and make any comments
>you'd like to see incorporated.
>Once the draft is finalized,
>we'll be submitting it to
>F&G and would ask for
>support from everyone to push
>for it over the F&G
>proposed system. Odds for all
>systems are shown in the
>proposal and can be viewed
>here:
>
>http://elk101.com/2010/06/idaho-bonus-point-proposal-part-2/
>
>There is also a downloadable PDF
>there that you can e-mail
>to your friends.
>
>Thanks,
>Corey

Been telling the points chasers this from the start. They ain't gonna listen.

the artist formerly known as "gemstatejake".
 
Gator, points do not favor the younger generation; just those young enough when points are implemented.

A 12 year old in Utah will be 84 years old by the time he statistically draws San Juan Elk, and will be 144 years old by the time he draws Henry's deer.

And all because he was not alive 15 years ago when points were started. Terrible

Grizzly
 
>deepforks- I couldn't agree more
>with your first paragraph.
>
>"turn more general hunt units into
>TROPHY units while still keeping
>them general."
>I agree but I think it
>should be done by making
>a general archery season and
>making the rifle hunt a
>draw only. IMO a
>general archery hunt will; force
>people to become better hunters
>and reduce harvest number while
>still offering opportunity.

Bonus point ain't even reality yet and look what the MM crowd wants to do. As I predicted......open the door a crack and the antis in the guise of "conservationists" try to kick it down.

"better hunters" thats a joke. You mean force people right out of hunting, right? Keep restricting $hit more and more and watch what happens.



the artist formerly known as "gemstatejake".
 
GSJ,

Telling the point chasers isn't who any of us need to be telling. We need to be writing the commissioners and attending the public scope meetings. The F&G has a valid survey in their hands from 2005 that states that the majority of hunters in Idaho actually favor a point system. It is absolutely a reality and at this point it will take a HUGE effort to get the points system shut down. Our stance first and foremost is to oppose the points system, but if/when it is implemented, we have a proposal of what we feel is the best way to run a BP system in Idaho...increasing chances for those with more points without drastically killing the chances of those with less, or no, points.

I'd urge everyone to take the survey at F&G's website and leave comments on your thoughts and opinions. A well-written, intelligent comment will go a long ways. Also, send an e-mail to the commissioners and explain to them why you oppose the system.

Corey
 
You guys got it nailed. Most folks want a point system because they are frustrated. Ignorance is bliss. Most have no idea what it will actually do to the odds.
 
One point none of the anti-point folks talk about much is the main reason F&G is implementing a point system in the first place, $$$$! If a point system was not a cash cow IDFG would not even be considering starting one just because people are frustrated with not drawing. And as I have said several times on here before I have seen Idaho's game herds decline quite a bit in the last 2 decades, and I primarily hunt the southern part of the state where wolves are not as big of a presence as other areas. The state has been managed for the dollar and not our animals. So I am hopeful that a point system will finally allow for better game management by being able to reduce the revenue dependence on OTC tags. Not eliminating them like some have speculated just having more limited quota OTC tags that can be adjusted from time to time to meet the needs of the herd #s. And I have not drawn a controlled hunt tag in 11 years now (and once again I dont apply for high demand hunts) so I am fine with paying an extra $6.25 a year so I have a better chance to finally draw a tag in the next 11 years.
 
How so you tell Joe Texan or Bob in Cali to spend a $150 on nothing? What do they get for a huntin licence? Zero I see both sides of the argument. I buy ota tags if I dont draw which I never have. I just hate to see a guy get three tags in a row and the next guy nothing because the waiting periods are only one year. F@G needs quit being so greedy for the licence fee and extend the waiting period.
 
What do they get? wtf? THEY GET TO GO HUNTING!!!!!!

Isn't that what a hunting license is for?????

I guess not according to Nevada! They gave me a stoopid fugging "point" in lieu of a hunting trip! HA!

Hey, maybe if i get 190 of them, B&C will recognize them and put me in the all time point collecter book! I could mount them on my wall right next to all the good bucks I killed with a GENERAL FUGGING TAG right here in good ol' IDAHO!

you points chasers routinely out think yourselves!








the artist formerly known as "gemstatejake".
 
In light of BUGLELK's analysis of Idaho's plan and reviewing their two proposals it is clear that Moosey69's point that F&G is doing this solely for $$ must be correct as it seems clear that none of these plans really improves anyones chances at drawing a good tag.

Currently our system gives everyone a fair chance every year. We shouldn't change that just cause some guy feels unlucky. Hell that guy probably feels the same way about being divorced three times, but that isn't my fault either.
 
We need to take away the 25% of the tags that are alotted to the landowners and give that percentage to the out of state hunters and the landowners can fight over the 10%.Why shouldnt we the license buyers get a chance for those tags, in return getting more revenue for F&G instead of the same landowners year after year selling them to the same people year after year and they dont even have to wait a year like the general public.The point system is obviously going through no matter what most of us like.When the legislature votes and passes it its a done deal.Dont forget to voice your opinion on F&Gs Landowner Appreciation Program.Hell lets take all the tags back and they can leave Idaho if they dont like it. OUR tags should not be for $ale.
 
I go back and forth on points or no points. But the one thing that I would really like to see is longer waiting periods after being drawn. Say a five year wait before you can apply for that animal again.
 
Tagsoup the dwr wants the $150 for license fees. Thats why the short waiting period, I agree the wait needs to be 3 years at least.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-23-10 AT 01:44PM (MST)[p]I agree on the longer waiting period.

BUGLELK- Corey, can you post your math of how you came with your statistical model on your website? I agree that either of your proposals would be better than what F&G is proposing. Basically because they don't make the applicant pool grow exponentially the way bonus points squared would. And your proposals would still allow the F&G to generate all that extra revenue which I think is as the root of all this anyway. People are highly critical of F&G's efforts to raise revenue, but if it means they can hire more people or acquire more resources to help them BETTER MANAGE THE GAME HERDS, then I'm all for it. The question is how well they use that revenue?

Jason
 
Jason,

I'll work on cleaning it up so it can be followed, but it's very basic statistics based upon the number of applicants in 2009...

Also, I'm all for generating revenue that will be appropriately used for wildlife. However, F&G's track record for generating revenue isn't exactly stellar, neither is the amount of actual revenue they put back into wildlife. Look at last years attempt to raise NR license/tag fees, which was estimated to generate $1.5M??? They lost more than they hoped to gain...

They'll be able to grab a bunch of cash with their proposal, but there will be not benefit to wildlife or hunters, other than those who are able to jump in on the ground floor...

Corey
 
Corey,
Thanks for the information, I appreciate people spending their time and effort to promote their position in a logical way. Keep up the good work. I also noticed that you are attempting to inform folks without attacking those that might oppose your point of view.
Sportsmen could use more of this IMO.
Thanks again.
CB08
 
After a decade of not being able to draw anything as a resident in Idaho, I'm now a huge advocate of a point system. I don't even put in for tags with extremely difficult odds, yet I continually get skunked. I will gladly take one tag in my life if it means I can get at least one tag. The way things look I will be guaranteed several tags in Colorado and Wyoming, elk in Utah and Arizona, plus the chance of a tag in Nevada, all before I get a single tag in my home state. Bring on the points!!!
 
A final note that the on-line survey is scheduled to close 30 June.

Tom Keegan
IDFG Salmon Region Wildlife Manager
 

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