Idaho hunters, what's your opinion?

LAST EDITED ON Sep-08-05 AT 06:37PM (MST)[p]I would favor a bonus point system, but not a preference point system. If you don't get in on the bottom floor on a preference point system you basically have no chance of dawing the great units in your lifetime. This is not fair to younger hunters who aren't old enough to apply or have not developed into serious hunters. When I was 21, I was not too concerned, informed, or could afford building preference points. I like my state's (Nevada) method of squaring bonus points.
 
I DO NOT want bonus points.
It would be nice if I had built up points for not drawing deer, elk or antelope for the last 8 years but it wouldn't be worth it. It is just my opinion but I believe bonus points would encourage significantly more hunters to apply for tags every year. It is simple math. There are a limited number of tags. If more hunters apply for these tags my chance of drawing a tag decreases.
 
I like the luck of the draw deal we have here in Idaho. No tricks or gimmicks to it. If it is not broken...don't fix it.
 
I'm with COSA. Yes to bonus points no to preference points. I don't like the luck of the draw because I'm not lucky when it comes to that. Theoretically I would have drawn 2 to 3 tags by now if we had some type of point system. The elk tag I try for is 1in 7 odds and I haven't drawn in 17 years. That's my humble opinion.

IB
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-12-05 AT 06:27PM (MST)[p]I'm an Idaho native and have never lived anywhere else, nor have I hunted any other state for big game. Therefore, I have no experience with point systems or the advantages/disadvantages to each. I would like to see some very specific details about what each option is and all of the real facts - with no spin from anyone with an agenda.

From what I have heard of point systems, I tend to be in favor of leaving things as they are. As already pointed out, some systems put newer hunters at a major disadvantage and I could not support a system like that. On the other hand, I have been trying for an antelope tag for 10 years with no success, so I will keep an open mind for now, and hope for good information to base my opinion on.

There are so many things to consider - are all tags under the point systems or would some remain completely luck-of-the-draw? As BrianID pointed out, would more people apply every year to keep their point count growing? Any advantage given to young hunters? Resident/non-resident quotas? If problems arise from a new system, how easily could they be fixed?
 
I live in Idaho and like many of you put in for a lot of different states for tags. I think that the bonus point and preference point systems are a bad idea for Idaho. Right now whether you are a resident or non we have the best odds for moose, sheep, and goat. With that being said I realize there are some unlucky guys out there that do not draw tags under this system. Even if we went to bonus point system, kids born the year in which the system is instituted would be 12-15 years behind in points. I do not think this is good for future generations of hunters. I do not even have kids so I have nothing to gain by this opinion.

Some of you are going to say that with bonus points kids would still have a chance to draw. This is true, but would you like to be the person with 15 bonus points or zero?
 
I would be in favor of bonus points as long as there was still a chance for someone to draw with 0 points. I would also like to see some cost to have points, either buying a license or just paying for the points, which would help control a large spike in the numbers of people applying as BrianID is concerned with.

In Nevada it seems that even on high demand hunts, some people draw with very few pts and some don't draw with lots of pts.

At this point, Idaho still has over the counter tags for elk and deer and archery antelope, bonus points would be for premium controlled tags, so you could still hunt without being drawn.

It would just be nice to know that maybe you could draw a premium tag once before someone else gets it 3 or 4 times.

My wife put in for bull moose and drew a tag the very first time she applied. While hunting, we ran into a gentleman in his late 60's who had applied for bull moose 20 years+ without drawing. Finally bought a leftover cow moose tag just to go hunting. We felt bad and didn't tell him she drew the first time. Luck of the draw? You bet. Fair, well not really. Even though we benefitted (she harvested a 44" 9x10)we both agreed that guy who had put in for over 20 years should have had a better chance to draw than she did.

Just my 2 cents.
 
I have been afraid they would try that soon. I feel it would ruin the draw hunts. I am very much against any kind of point system. I like the luck of the draw. I have only drawn out 4 times in 14 years, but I still feel it is the best way.
IDhunter
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-15-05 AT 00:04AM (MST)[p]Personally I believe that bonus or preference points would not be a good thing. Sure the people who don't have great luck will get more points or chances, but so will a lot of other people. To me it seems like those "better odds" would apply to everyone and the only people to see a change in their odds would be kids and those people who just started putting in. I guess if it only affected a portion of the tags it might be ok. Of course according to the survey fish and game just sent my son they are also thinking about limiting the number of species you can put in for on some trophy hunts. I like the way things are now with everyone having the same chance every year. I know it sucks for some people. I've drawn a moose tag and 2 elk tags in 26years so I don't have the best luck either. Thanks for letting me rant.
 
I just got off the phone with the person at IDFG who is heading this project. He said the online survey will have some details on the proposal, and should be on the web site this week.

He also said the plan is based on or very similar to Nevada's setup. Here is the info from their site: http://www.ndow.org/hunt/applications/bonus.shtm

It is interesting to look at the draw stats of the winners' point counts. http://www.ndow.org/hunt/stats/bonus.shtm

I'll be doing a lot of reading. At this point I am not convinced we need to change.
 
Thanks for the link ID_Paul. The bonus point system that Nevada has is much better than the preference point systems in other states.
As others have mentioned kids loose when there is a point system. I still believe I will draw more tags over the next 30 years without a bonus point system. After I draw my first deer, elk and antelope tags with a bonus point system the future tags are going to be much more difficult to draw. After a point system has been in place for 15 years the average wait between drawing tags will become much larger than it is now. The only people that win in a point system are they ones that put in more often because there is a point system. I really think there are a lot of guys that would start applying for tags every year so they could build up their points.
Once a bonus point system is put in place there will be no going back. Just image if 15 years from now the F&G told guys that have 10+ points that their points are no longer good because the F&G is doing away with the point system.
Overall we do have it good in Idaho. Even though I have never drawn a tag for anything except X tags I still have some decent hunting opportunities every year.
 
ever wonder why they are considering a preference or bonus point system?

the answer is the extra $$$ it will generate for the F&G general fund. this can either be good or bad depending on how the "extra" $$$ are spent, but we all know "extra" $$$ are efficiently utilized in state government so it will be a good thing, right?.
 
>ever wonder why they are considering
>a preference or bonus point
>system?
>
>the answer is the extra $$$
>it will generate for the
>F&G general fund. this
>can either be good or
>bad depending on how the
>"extra" $$$ are spent, but
>we all know "extra" $$$
>are efficiently utilized in state
>government so it will be
>a good thing, right?.


I can see it being extra work, but how will it bring extra money? Just by people applying every year to gain points?

What I have heard is that some hunters have been demanding the department change the way things are done, so they are looking into the possibility.
 
Some good points. It does seem that the chance of drawing would drop when your points get reset to 0. A least the system they are considering would not completely cut you out, but it definitely does look like a disadvantage.

If this passes, I'd hope to see them put in an arrangement to give youth hunters an advantage - perhaps start all applicants with junior licenses with 2 points or something?

Currently we have to wait a year if we get drawn for an antlered tag. It seems simpler to extend the waiting period to 2 years (maybe 3 years on high-demand hunts?) to give all a better chance, rather than going to a point system. (Just some rambling thoughts, have not considered all the possible impacts)

I guess I'll just wait and see exactly what they propose.
 
If a person draws an antlered only deer, elk, or antelope tag they should have to wait 3-5 years before applying again. This would improve odds and still give everybody a decent chance of drawing a few times before they die.
 
I hope they keep the future of hunting in mind (youth)instead of just keeping the almighty $$$$$$$$$$$$ in sight.
 
ID_Paul,

About 5 years ago point systems sounded like a great idea to me because I wasn't able to draw a tag after applying for 3 years. After learned how the point systems are working in other states I'm glade that Idaho doesn't have one.

The F&G would generate extra cash by adding a point system. In their news releases the F&G said they would increase the application fee if a bonus point system were put in place. A bonus point system would also increase the number of nonresidents that would apply which increase the number of nonresident hunting licenses that the F&G sells.

If there were enough controlled hunt tags that one in three or four applicants would get a tag then I think a bonus point system would work quite well. After you have a large number of hunters with 10+ points it becomes very difficult to draw a tag for those that have few or no points. After a bonus point system is in place for 20 years there are going to be a very large number of hunters with 10+ points. If a point system does get put in place I hope they give youth hunters more "youth controlled hunts" and allow the kids to keep their points if they draw one of these "youth hunts".

I know a number of hunters that don't apply for controlled hunts very often. If there were a bonus point system put in place I would bet that most of them would apply every year. It would be interesting to find out how many more applicants start applying in other states after a point system was put in place. IMO a bonus point system in Idaho would cause at least 1/3 more applicants for deer and elk. The number of applicants for antelope might double or triple. I could certainly be wrong and I don't have any data to back it up but I really do believe I (and my kids) would draw more tags in Idaho over the next 30 years if there were no point system. If there is a point system I hope that the max point cap is really low like around 5 instead of 12 or 15.

Here's something the F&G said in part of their online survey that you might want to consider.

"In Idaho, a bonus point system should improve an applicant's chance of eventually drawing in most moose, pronghorn antelope, antlerless elk and deer controlled hunts, and low demand antlered elk and deer controlled hunts. The chance of drawing mountain goat, bighorn sheep, and high demand antlered elk and deer hunts would only improve slightly with a bonus point system."

The key word in this quote is ?eventually?. Unless someone can convince me that the number of applicants won't significantly increase then I don't want a bonus point system. Unless there are a lot of other Idaho hunters that think the same way I do Idaho will have a bonus point system soon. Make sure you start building up your points early. Once you get behind in the point game you are likely going to be in for a long wait before you draw a tag.
 
Did I say something that made you think I support the proposal? I am not at all convinced that it is a good thing.

I sent a lengthy comment in the survey expressing many of the same concerns you list above.

*IF* there was a system that would not disadvantage youth hunters, nor reduce drawing success long-term then I may be able to support it. I don't think such a system exists. Time will tell...
 
ID_Paul,

I wasn't trying to come across that way.

After taking the survey I could tell the F&G has some good ideas. In the survey the mentioned giving "extra" points to people that complete hunters ed. If we do end up with a point system in Idaho it at least looks like it would be better than the point systems in most states.
 
No, Points!!! I FInally drew a late 45 deer tag, last year but everyone had same chance as me to draw tag. If you don't buy points or miss a year of draw, you will always play catch up to someone!!
 
>No, Points!!! I FInally drew
>a late 45 deer tag,
>last year but everyone had
>same chance as me to
>draw tag. If you
>don't buy points or miss
>a year of draw,
>you will always play catch
>up to someone!!

Bonus points allow you to draw more computer generated numbers and the lowest one is used. If you miss a year or two you could still draw a tag ahead of someone with alot more points. You can draw every year still if your lucky enough. There are no set aside tags for hunters with the most points in a bonus point system.
Now Preference points are a whole different game. If you miss a year you can never catch up like in Colorado.

Idaho is talking about Bonus points.

I like Nevada's bonus point system. I drew every year as a resident with 0 points for Archery deer. I have friends who drew rifle deer tags 2 years in a row and 3 out of 5 years. I'm moving to Idaho in a few months I'd be all for a Bonus point system like they have in Nevada.

You guys still have OTC tags for Elk and Deer it's not like you can't hunt if you don't draw a controlled hunt tag.

The Bonus points system is not a bad thing and it will generate some more money for the Idaho F&G.
 
Why would you want to move to Idaho. People are rude, the smog is horrible, traffic is a beotch, fishing sucks, there are more wolves than elk and deer, we are neighbors to the utards...lets face it the best thing about idaho are the sheepherders. :)
 
Excaliber
In Idaho you can only draw a controled hunt for a given species every other year.

As far as the bonus points system, I am againts it. One of the proposals on the table is the option to purchase bonus points. I hate to see the hunting in prime areas go to the people with the most money. Some of you would say it's only $50.00 per point. For me and a lot of other people $50 bucks is hard to squeeze out of the budget. By the time you add the tag fee, the application fee, the elk tag, the deer tag, the combo license all times two (my son), I'm already looking at a couple a hundred bucks just to hunt resident. I consider it money well spent. But now add scouting and gas and all the incedentals, well you all know that this is not a inexpensive obsession. I just don't want to get priced out of the market. I'm not whining just venting. I like the idea of everyone being on the same playing field every year. No advantage to anyone.
 
Idabigbuck

Where does it say that you can draw a controlled hunt for a given species every two years??
 
Fowladdict,
Hunting regs, controlled hunt section, "eligibility"

"Any person whose name was drawn on an antlered deer controlled hunt may NOT apply for any other controlled antlered-only deer hunt for one year.........EXCEPT for leftover controlled hunt
drawings or sales.
The same thing applies to antlered only controlled elk hunts.
The regs are on line
 
Idabigbuck,

You had me worried there for a sec. I've drawn an antelope tag this year for the second straight year and I was unsure if maybe I shouldn't have been allowed to apply, but turns out antelope does not apply to this rule.
 
fowladdict,
You lucky dog. I'm going to start putting in for antelope next year. Good luck and lets see some pictures. I've got a late season buck hunt in unit 41. Right next door to unit 40, the "glamour girl" of Owyhee county. So I'm hoping some of those genes made it over to my unit. I do the math every year, figure the odds of drawing a tag and put in for those units. So far I'm drawing my buck tag about every 3 years!
 
Idabigbuck

I've put in for the late buck hunt in 41 for the last two years as well and have so far been unsuccessful. Maybe next year.

I start my antelope hunt this sunday, hopefully the rain hasn't moved them out of the areas that I've scouted so far.

Fowl
 
Hello, I'm a regional wildlife manager for IDFG. Good discussion about some of the pros and cons on potential changes to Idaho's drawing system.

I can't help but try to address some misperceptions and offer some explanations.

First, there are several "truths" that can't be changed.
1. You can't improve one person's chances in any draw system without decreasing chances for someone else.

2. Given a constant number of tags and applicants, the same number of people are unsuccessful every year. (100 applicants for 10 tags = 90 people don't draw).

3. Implementing a new system requires more computer programming and bookkeeping, so it will cost more money.

4. When demand if high enough, there is no way anyone can be guaranteed to draw a tag under any system.

One part of the current survey about "purchasing points" can be misconstrued. The question is really whether someone should be able to apply for a "ghost" hunt number. That is, submit a standard application fee and acquire a single point without actually applying for a hunt. The question was not meant to imply someone could just "buy" multiple points or more chances in the draw (such as Maine allows for moose). The logic behind allowing someone to apply for a single point is to give the hunter the ability to stay current in the point system when they know they won't be able to hunt that year (ever have a daughter set her wedding date right in the middle of hunt it just took you 10 years to draw?) or if they might draw more tags than they can effectively use. If people can't apply for a ghost number, some will pick out and apply for the hardest to draw tags, actually hoping they don't get it, so they can gain a point, and the result is even worse odds for high demand hunts.

There seems to be confusion about what different systems mean. Both systems can include set-asides for maximum point holders. Arizona currently sets 20% of tags aside for maximum BONUS point holders and the rest go into a standard bonus point draw among all applicants. In Oregon, 75% of tags are allocated to maximum PREFERENCE point holders and the remaining 25% go in to a completely random draw among all applicants. Those set-asides can be modified as much as hunters want to adjust advantage among applicants, but any way you slice it new hunters or those who drew the previous year (points reset to zero) go to "the back of the line" and will have reduced chances. The primary difference between bonus and preference point systems is predictability - it is easier to predict when you will be assured of drawing in a preference system. In a bonus system, you can still calculate your chances, but a very "unlucky" person may still never draw a tag. It is true that a strict preference point system (e.g, Colorado) severely penalizes anyone who enters the system after the start-up - many will never catch up for premium hunts.

An opinion - wait periods are not very effective at improving draw odds (but may keep them from getting worse). Why? Because the pool of applicants always seems to refill with new people. The best example is Idaho's moose hunts: bull moose tags are once in a lifetime if you harvest. Idaho has offered about 1,000 bull moose tags each year for the last 5 years and we have a harvest success rate of about 80%. So 800 people are permanently removed from the applicant pool every year. Starting with 5,000 applicants 5 years ago, there "should be" only 1,000 people left applying for moose. But the actual applicant pool has been very near 5,000 people EVERY YEAR for the last 5 years. Every year 800 "new" people apply for moose in Idaho, so the "ultimate" wait period does not improve odds (but it probably keeps them from getting worse).

Lastly, I hope all those giving opinions on this site will make those opinions known to the IDFG Commission through the on-line survey or a hard copy available at our offices. Each IDFG region has been asked to conduct a public meeting on the issue - check with you local office for details. The meeting in Salmon will October 5 at the regional office.

Sorry to be so long-winded, but it is a complex issue and I have only scratched the surface.
 
Salmonfg,

Thanks for jumping in here and saying what you did. that probably helped alot of people, myself included, see things from other points of view. Boy do I have about 4000 questions for you. I'll spare you and wait till the public meeting though.

Jaxon
 
Thank you for the information! Doesn't seem long-winded to me at all. Any chance of getting that type of information and more compiled and posted on the IDFG web site so people are better informed? (Or is it already there and I haven't found it?)

Your point about wait periods is interesting. Do you think the same would apply for elk & deer hunts? I know that personally, I have put off applying for moose since it is a one-time hunt.

IMO, it is things like "some will pick out and apply for the hardest to draw tags, actually hoping they don't get it, so they can gain a point, and the result is even worse odds for high demand hunts." that we all need to realize when making our decision on what to support. If public input is based primarily on rumor and ignorance of details, we may end up with a system that turns out badly. Granted, some prefer to base opinion on rumor than fact.

I sent a lengthy list of comments in with my survey and am going to try to speak directly with someone in the local IDFG office.

Paul
 
Thanks for the positive responses.

Apparently, the technical aspects of transferring current presentations to a web-friendly format are a problem. I have a presentation (in MS Powerpoint) I can try to e-mail to interested folks.

It's not difficult to mathematically predict how extended wait periods would impact deer and elk draw rates (assuming no chnage in the applicant pool), but it is extremely difficult to predict human responses. I look at it this way, if you saw the chance of drawing a premium buck or bull tag increasing as other hunters dropped out to the wait list, would you sit out and just keep buying a general tag or would you throw your name in the hat?

Cheers
 
Well, since this is an issue that interests me immensly I might as well put in my 2 cents worth also. Bonus points sound great to me. It is extremely frustrating to put in to draw year after year and never see any results. I have a little story to tell and I'm sure you have all heard similar ones before. My grandfather put in for moose for about ten years or so before he finally drew a couple of years ago. He was one unhappy old guy the year before he drew and very frustrated because of the situation. He's in his seventies now and who knows when he could be gone. And all the while he was trying to draw he couldn't put in for hunts with the rest of us. Now, how is it fair that a 15 year old kid who has 50 years of hunting in front of him(or more) that puts in and draws his first year gets to hunt when an older gentleman has been applying for who knows how many years doesn't? It's also frustrating to those that don't have quite so much mileage on them. Most kids would be very happy to shoot a doe or a 2 point. Why do they need the same opportunities as more seasoned hunters? What about some guy's girlfriend who just applys to go with her boyfriend because he wants her to go? I guess it all depends on your view of fair.
Also, the ghost points is a great idea. I'm an Idaho resident but am going to graduate school in Minnesota so I won't be able to hunt in Idaho this year unless it is for a late cow hunt. If the system is implemented I would be interested in the ghost points as would other future students who go to school out of state. Think these things over before you fill out that survey on the website. There's my two cents. Take it for what its worth.
 
I'm pretty sure that one thing you will learn as you go through life is that it is not fair. That being said what system could be more fair than everyone having exactly the same odds. If we go to a bonus system and the predictions are right about the increase in non-residents and people who usually only hunt a general tag putting in. How will increasing those numbers affect chances at a tag even with bonus points. The other thing to look at in the survey is where it discusses even more limitations on the number of species you can apply for. I think over the long run it will still be difficult to draw tags, but more expensive than ever.
 
Well, I guess my opinion of fair is "everybody that applies has the same chances of drawing as everybody else does". That is the way it is now, and Idaho has some great odds in drawing, allthough there are going to be a few that have "bad luck". Given that, there are going to be a few that have "good luck" too.

My own personal opinion is that I would like to see the deer/elk/antelope and bear controlled hunts stay as they are. No pref points, no bonus points, straight up everybody has the same odds. I wouldn't be opposed however to seeing a bonus point system implemented for "once in a lifetime" animals. No pref points period!!! Is there anybody that can answer if that is even a possiblity?? (salmonfg??) Or are they pretty much set on the fact that some type of system is on its way to Idaho, for all species, it's just a matter of what type of system it is going to be??

Jaxon
 
The direction for the Idaho draw system lies with the Fish and Game Commission (for those who don't know, the F&G Commissioners are the public's representation for fish and wildlife policy issues at the state level). The Commission "works" for the public in setting policy and approving rules. It was (and is) Commission direction, through previous public input, to investigate potential changes to Idaho's draw system. In other words, the concerns of some hunters prompted this process (the idea of did not originate within IDFG).

That said, public input (through the survey and other input) will play an important role in deciding whether changes are made and what those changes might be. As it stands now, the Commission will be briefed on results of the survey at their November meeting and we expect to receive direction from them on how to proceed. It could be leave things as they are, develop rules for a Nevada-style system, or anything in between. So yes, almost anything is possible. I cannot stress enough how important public input is on this, and any other issue, that goes before the Commission.

I would guess there would be resistance to including bighorn sheep and mountain goat in a point system because these systems are not particularly effective for very high demand hunts (i.e., less than 10% chance of drawing). What makes draw odds for once-in-a-lifetime species so high in Idaho compared to other states is the fact that applicants are limited to 1 application among those 3 species and can't apply for anything else. At this point moose are being considered for a system change because draw rates are moderate (average 20% for bull tags).
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-30-05 AT 00:20AM (MST)[p]Hey SalmonFG

I got a question for you. How come we don't make it, choose one weapon of choice to hunt with. Ya know, I think we give people too many chance of killing an animal. I'll take for example the hunt I hunt elk in. K..IDFG cut the cow permits in that unit from 300 to 150. And bulls from 100 to 75, because they said the didn't see the winter numbers that they usually do. K..so you elimated 175 controlled permit holders, that wouldn't be able to hunt begin November first. So now all of these people buy a general tag, they have with that tag 4 different chances to kill an elk. One an antleredless hunt with any weapon from Aug 1st to Aug 30th with one mile of cultivated land ( i think they really need to do away with these hunts, I haven't seen but about 10 elk in 15 years in a farmers field in this unit) k..then chance two archery hunt from Aug 30th to Sept 30th. Now we have regularly hunted this unit with bows as well as rifles and we have killed nearly 100 elk in our party from 92 to present, so we know this area and know where to find the elk. This year on the archery hunt, we seen more people than any year previous, and we seen less elk. But then we found the elk, with their tongues out headed for the border, because they had been run around so much. Seriously, they were more pressured on the archery hunt than the controlled hunts, that in years previous that had 400 tags!! Chance number three..a spike only hunt from Oct 15-31. And these spike hunts need to be done away with too...if you kill all the spikes, were are yur future bull crops gonna come from?? You want to see winter calf survival rates high, why so we can have open spike hunts?? I don't agree with open spike hunts or two point hunts for deer. But back to the weapon thing, you are give almost 3 full months to try and kill an elk. I think you should have to choose, am i going to archery hunt, rifle hunt, or muzzleloader hunt?? And get rid of all the open hunts and break them down to where each weapon of choice has so many permits...like say 70 archery tags from Sept 10th to the 30th...then say 200 cow tags and 50 bull tags from the 15th of Oct to the 30th...then maybe 100 any sex muzzy tags from Nov 1 to Nov 30. I think we get to many chances to tag an animal, and it would make us all better hunters if we didn't have so many chances at harvesting an animal.


snipersmilie.gif

one shot
 
Bonus point systems don't work. Simple as that. I'm from down here in AZ and I see some of the same people getting drawn for bull elk tags 7 out of 8 years, then I see guys putting in for the same hunts as the other guy for 12 years and not getting drawn. So you have guys with 1 or 2 points getting drawn every other year and guys with 12 points still waiting for a tag. I hope for you Idaho residents sake they don't do it, because you'll see yourselves getting drawn less and less as the years go by. If they do put a system in place, you'd better hope they don't offer a way of buying points and not actually putting in because that really screws things up.

Donnie
 
You all are talking out of you "southends" because you "northends" no better. Idaho's system sucks and needs to be revamped.
 
Elkster,

Just curious as to why you think that. Are you one of the unlucky that has had bad luck in the last few Idaho draws? Have you had good luck in other states with point systems?? Just curious as I was a little surprised to see sometbody just come out and flat out say "Idaho's system sucks". Everybody is entitled to their opinion so I am not going to knock yours, just curious as to why you have such a strong opinion toward changing it.

Jaxon
 
With regard to the last comment - applying for points only is a double-edged sword. AZ just recently allowed people to apply for points only (but you must purchase a non-refundable hunting license to do it). Without that option, some people may not apply and gain points but others will apply for hunts that are very difficult to draw and reduce draw chances for others. It happens - believe me - some people are putting in for premium Kaibab buck hunts just so they can build points for some other hunt (e.g., a late Coues hunt) in the future when they will have time/money to take that trip. The fact that nonresidents must buy a $113 license to keep their points is a fairly large disincentive for some. So you can either let people apply for hunts they don't really want and lower the draw odds for everyone else, or allow them to "buy" just a point for later use.
 

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