It's a done deal !!

snowman22250

Active Member
Messages
324
Warning....NOW that bill 141 has passed, and the GOV did NOT VETO it. Say goodbye to fishing all those wonderful public rivers in Utah. I.E, Weber, Ogden, Provo, Diamond Fork, Duchesne, etc, etc. You can no longer walk the rivers in, and on private property. It is now illegal to enter rivers that travel through private property. "without permission first".
THIS F___IN SUCKS>>>>>>
Public Roads through private property is next!!!Watch and see.

Snowman
 
personally I'm favor of landowner rights. I see both sides of the issue but if I owned some pristine acreage with a nice stream running through it, I wouldn't appreciate it being littered with beer cans and torn up by people who have no respect for other peoples property.

Face it, if everyone treated a place like it was their own, we wouldn't have no trespassing signs everywhere. There was a time when just about anyone would allow access if it was asked for properly. Too many bad apples have squandered that away. I think that is obvious to most of us.
 
To me this is a non issue. I never took advantage of public access on private waters. So I wont miss it. On the other hand I can speak from personal experience that befriending landowners to gain access has provided me with top notch fishing away from the crowds for decades. So if fishing private land is paramount to you then get out and make some friends. It's not that competitive out there and every landowner I have had the privilege of using their land has been happy to see me use it. Responsibly of coarse.
 
That list must invlude any "navigable rivers"?

Ya know, I understand the public access issues but there is that pesky thing about where the private landowners PAID for the land. Maybe instead of just expecting access and complaining a better approach might be some form of conservation easement. Just a thought.
 
>Warning....NOW that bill 141 has passed,
>and the GOV did NOT
>VETO it. Say goodbye to
>fishing all those wonderful public
>rivers in Utah. I.E, Weber,
>Ogden, Provo, Diamond Fork, Duchesne,
>etc, etc. You can no
>longer walk the rivers in,
>and on private property. It
>is now illegal to enter
>rivers that travel through private
>property. "without permission first".
>THIS F___IN SUCKS>>>>>>
>Public Roads through private property is
>next!!!Watch and see.
>
>Snowman

GOOD!!
 
So what is wrong with getting permission? If you are a nice guy who will respect someone's private property then why wouldn't people let you fish.

Dont attack landowners. You need to make them your friends.
 
This sucks ass! Landowners are not willing to let you on to do anything, At least 90% will not let you. This is a joke.
 
Rob--

Honsetly how can you say that, if anything the bill clarifies more and gives more rights to trespass then pre Conaster decision.

Come one dude you are way mis informed, have you even read the bill or should i say law?

PLEASE people read the law, you will still be able to fish the provo, weber, and all the other major flotable rivers.

Todd Black
BTO
 
BB,
Have you read Conatser? If so, how can you not see this law completely ignores the ruling? You keep telling people to read the bill. Before you do that, read Conatser(which was a unanimous decision by the Court). "Clarifying" the ruling to only include waters that had 10 consecutive years of public access beginning in 1982 is ridiculous. So now every land owner has a year to declare that their property did not have 10 consecutive years of public access. Please explain to me how this clarifies Conatser? If anything, it will just go to the courts to be struck down.
 
GOOD!!!!

I think it is crazy to think you can just go where ever you want to!!! If you want to fish private property....then make friends and ask (nicely will help) if not...it is NOT your god given right to fish wherever you damn well please! STAY OFF! I am glad this went through! I get sick of those out there that use loopholes and other crap to trespass!!!
 
With a little more background than a headline and a few words from a newspaper article, this issue is not nearly as cut and dry as some may think. Please understand I'm in favor of private property rights as much as anyone. Private property rights is the loudest and most effective drum to pound, so that's the angle it was played. But understand just as there are private rights there are public rights. The Utah constitution clearly identifies rivers and streams as public property, repeat PUBLIC, regardless if the water crosses private land or public land, the water is PUBLIC. That fact was never in question or disputed by either side, its understood, that's the way it is.

What was questioned was whether the PUBLIC should have access to PUBLIC water when it crosses private land. Again this is about the WATER only. No question what so ever about the land.

So a couple years ago a guy gets a ticket for trespassing while standing in public water (Weber River) that runs across private land. The guy fights it, and the issue goes all the way to the supreme court. The Utah supreme court looks at the case, looks at the constitution and rules UNANIMOUSLY that the public has a RIGHT to recreate in THEIR PUBLIC water. Mind you this is the Utah supreme court, arguably the most conservative court in the nation, that ruled unanimously that there is a public right to recreate in the public rivers and to do so they do have the right to touch the private streambed under the water.

So along comes two bills this legislative session, both to add some needed clarity to what the courts ruled as public rights. One bill was drafted with all parties at the table with open public meetings and a transparency you'd expect from elected officials. The other bill was drafted in secrecy with backroom deals and was backed by big $$$ from land owners. Money talks in politics and bill one failed and bill two passed. Not surprisingly tight to party lines.

Sad deal now. So we have the constitution that says this public right exists, and the supreme court who says this public right exists. But now we have a poor bill that contradicts and WILL ABSOLUTELY strike a legal battle to clarify what the legislature just muddied up. A legal battle that will cost all of us tax dollars.

There is a middle ground, its NOT this bill, and its NOT as simple as shouting private property rights.
 
Great post ForkWest!

There are also many people who don't know that landowners restrict access to public hunting lands. I can show you many, many spots on maps throughout Utah where PUBLIC land is surrounded by private property. The private property owners allow no one to cross their land to get to the public land. Is this considered "taking" of public lands as some would say?
 
Quote: There are also many people who don't know that landowners restrict access to public hunting lands. I can show you many, many spots on maps throughout Utah where PUBLIC land is surrounded by private property. The private property owners allow no one to cross their land to get to the public land. Is this considered "taking" of public lands as some would say?


Happens all over the West, Colorado, Wyoming, Montana ect.....
not just Utah

THE LORD IS MY ROCK
Colorado, U.S.A
NRA LIFE MEMBER
www.ElkHunterSports.com
 
I grew up on a farm and had lots of experience (ours and neighbors) with folks "stopping to hunt pheasants".

The problem with fishing access (or pheasants) is NOT damage done....it's limiting access to make a personal fishery (or hunt). It's plain and simple. You folks in Utah should fire the governor...AND the legislature and repeal that law!!

It goes against the history of our country.


Within the shadows, go quietly.
 
Alright all you smarties....

1--no one not even private landowners question the public owned water so lets not even discuss that. Fact is many of these landowners actually own the water rights. I would dare say there are not too many fisherman or sporting groups out there that pay for water rights.

2--The Conaster decision ignored Utah's constitution for the right to own private property. You tell me how it didn't

So this is for you smarties.....here's the question.

Tell me how you recreate on public water without trespassing on private lands if in fact it flows through private lands?

The law has always allowed and HB 141 will continue to allow access to navigable waters. The problem is small streams and creeks that a certain group of fisherman and sportsmen think they have access too. So, where do you draw the line? If the ground underneath the water is private--since private landowners have paid taxes on it for ever showing that it is so, where is the compromise? And if you say that its the high water mark than i really fail to see how any ground on most Utah's rivers is private anymore which would amount to a 'take' of the State of private land.

Please someone tell me how you protect private property rights and still allow public recreation to public waters? There has to be some sort of compromise or law that satisfies both.

Oh and BTW when Utah's water laws were set they were all allocated for agriculture, livestock, and municipalities. Recreational use of water and recreation right of the water didn't come into play until the early 70's.



Todd Black
BTO
 
BB,
HB 80 would have been a good compromise. Why would the high water mark within the river channel not have worked? Rivers rise in the spring. Stay within the bounds to which the river rose.

The Court in Conatser did not go against the Constitution. I agree property rights are paramount. However, Conatser finally acknowledged what was always the case with Utah waterways. That is, the stream or river bed is considered to be a public easement. That in no way condones trespassing on private property. You would have to stay in the stream and enter and leave the stream from a public access point How is this different than a sidewalk through my front yard? Same thing with aircraft flying over private property everyday.

I guess its a good thing the law does not go into effect until 2011 though.
 
OK smartie, first be up front and tell everyone you have a financial stake in this matter.

http://www.blacktimberoutfitters.net/fishing.html

And, don't get me wrong, that's cool, I have no problem with that.


I'll answer your question. "Tell me how you recreate on public water without trespassing on private lands if in fact it flows through private lands?"

It's called an easment. A recreational easment that the supreme court upheld UNANIMOULSY. The same reason you can walk down the side walk on my property in front of my house. The same type of easment that allows you, me and all the public to recreate in the rivers and streams of Idaho and Montana.

Now I know you understand that. The explaination is not for you, it's for those that are reading your spin, that may not have all the info.
 
You all have valid points and I agree with almost everything that everyone has said.

I want to share a few things with you. Firt, I am all for private land owners rights and if i were in there possition and had the ability to limit or control access to some public ground you bet your life I would do just that. With that in mind I live in Montana where the fish and game do the worst job at managing the animals. And I find the best quality of animals in the public ground that does have limited access. So in my experience the land owners are doing what I feel the FWP are failing at, and that is improving the quality of hunting in my area.

Now with that said I do not agree with closing access on publicly maintained roads, If we the public are paying to maintain something we should have full access to use it. I to have found that if we treat land owners with respect they will in turn do the same. that is my two cense on this topic.
 
I just watched Peay on Channel 2 news all dressed in a pimp suit. Apparently " a few greedy fly fishermen " are causing trouble.

My take on this whole deal is whatever.. We all live in Utah and we keep electing and re-electing these fools because the have an R in front of their names on the ballot, and apparently we are all so much holier than those evil Democrats.

Watch what happens with the eminent domain pile of crap that just passed. Apparently we are in such a hurry to get away from the socialist pig FEDS that we are all happy to turn our state land management over to whatever Corporation can grease the most palms. Hello Energy Solutions Canyon!! Come pull the trigger on a nice green glowing buck or bull. Mossback will soon be using well heads instead of GPS Coordinates to locate the next world record.
Since Mike Noel has not one ounce of respect for wilderness of any type when it comes to his ATV feel free to ride where ever the hell ya want...Why not he does!!! Yeah lets get our state lands away from those Fed pigs. I know lets turn it over to SITLA there's a real stand up gang over there.

Relax, this bill or like BB says now a law will either get blasted by the legal challenges that have already been filed
or repealed soon enough once people pull their heads out and remove these idiots from office. Gary Herbert just split the sportsmans community in an election year.





******************************************************************
Wiley,
I am nominating that for post of the
century on Monster Muleys!

Your are spot on.
 
This is all bullschit!!! We deserve the right to fish any water in utah!! We pay for it. We buy our licenses. Pay our taxes. bla bla bla. It our r ight to fish it, Just because someone owns it dont mean they should be able to keep us out. Thats just how it is!
 
Gordy, where in the Constitution is the Federal Government allowed to take vast tracts of land from the several states, without consent? Where is it stated that locking up such lands, putting them to NO good use, locking up the natural resources, so the states (and the entire nation) cannot possibly benefit therefrom, for the better part of a century, is authorized by the Constitution of the United States of America?

Apparently you aren't familiar with the 9th and 10th Amendments. I suggest you actually read them. Then, while your at it, educate yourself on state history and what the federal government promised would happen to such lands back when Utah became a state 114 years ago.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-01-10 AT 08:33AM (MST)[p]We absolutely do no guided fishing on public or private lands, period. I'm not sure what you refer to with your link to my web page, i don't get it.

Still waiting for a solution to public water private lands.... HB80 fail way short in my opinion.

Todd Black
BTO
 
BB,,,

You are starting to remind me of SFW.....DON"T GO THERE>

As for this bill....Yes you can still navigate through private property, BUT NOW, you will not be able to stop, and touch ground....

Before, you could walk down the stream beds and fly fish. NOW you cannot.

90% of landowners care about one thing...How much you willing to pay me for the access???

My family owns land in Lambs canyon(wasatch archery only area), almost all the hunters walk along the river to access this area. Well guess what boys, you NO longer have the trespass easement to the top of LAMBS Canyon. It won't matter if your standing in the middle of the river anymore, better get your checkbook out and pay me some money to trespass up the canyon now...

Just joking, I will never let the greed take me over. Not like some other folk, and Organizations, hint, hint...

Todd....Is this why you seem to like this bill so much...Are you going to make money for access somehow???/ Just curious.??

Rob
 
>BB,,,
>
>You are starting to remind me of SFW.....DON"T GO THERE>

He is well past the SFW stuff, He's on board the CWMU train. SFW at least acts like they want to help the state, the CWMU guys just want to rape the public on thier CWMU dream hunts and reap the rewards and money from the rich guys.
 
Bart I agree with you 100%!! I was a little extreme in my post for a reason. We don't have a Govt. right now. We have the extremists from both side spewing rhetoric and getting absolutely nothing done




****************************************************************
Wiley,
I am nominating that for post of the
century on Monster Muleys!

Your are spot on.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-01-10 AT 10:30AM (MST)[p]It failed to address landowners and private property rights. Rep. Fowlk never asked them to the table. It failed to do just what I have been asking--providing public access to water while protecting the constitutional right we have to own private property and to keep people off that property. How's that for starters.

HJB you still make me laugh every time I read your post.

You guys would all be bold face liars if you told me you wouldn't care if the world had access to your property via a stream or river. Sorry you will never convince me otherwise.


Todd Black
BTO
 
WRONG! Fowlk invited EVERYONE to the table. Landowners, Farm Bureau, everyone, they were there. Completely open to the public.

It was the landowners that opted to leave the public forumn mid way through discussions and pursue their agenda through closed door backroom politics.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-01-10 AT 10:39AM (MST)[p]There was an open invitation and the farm bureau did attend but there were never individual landowners, the CWMU association, or any other landowner groups invited to her meetings--never. Sorry your wrong.

To me this whole deal feels just like the democrats (the fishermen whining until they get what they want) vs. the republicans who really care about the constitution. I deal with these same type of people to live in the conflict industry make their living off filling law suits against people or groups or agencies until they get their way.

Sorry to me this whole thing smells of Obama and a bit Socialistic welfare plan to take from those that have and give to those that are standing there with their hands out.


Todd Black
BTO
 
Republicans?...Like the 5 Republican supreme court justices who ruled, ON THE CONSITITUION, that this right exisits?
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-01-10 AT 12:01PM (MST)[p]The right to be able to walk/wade/touch stream beds via PUBLIC easements. Not to be confused with a right to trespass on private property. BB, rivers and streams including the ground beneath the water were held to be public easements. How does this not make sense? If you were to say the Court was completely wrong, your position on this issue would make a lot more sense. I have yet to read that though. Here is a link to the Court's opinion. Please read http://www.headwatersnews.org/UtahWater.pdf

You do realize when this law is challenged in the the courts (likely this summer) it has little to no chance of surviving, don't you?
 
I was just told the GOV has family that owns property along the Provo river. I wonder if this has anything to do with him NOT vetoing the bill.

Todd,
I can say I finally agree with you on something in this post.
Bow hunters have always had access to Upper Lambs Canyon because of the "river", now they had better be careful, as all those Nature Loving Lambs Canyon resident will be "ENFORCING" the trespassing. I will benefit from it being I am a part owner, and it will keep down the amount of hunters trying to trespass threw the private part of the canyon. So, I agree, I am a landowner, and I love it that you can't trespass by means of the public river way.!!!!

However, I still overall lose!!! All those public rivers, with great fly fishing, now acceptable to closure to the general public. SUCKS MAN>>>>>

Snowman
 
?22 The question before us is whether the incidental RIGHT
of touching the water?s bed is reasonably necessary for the
effective enjoyment of the public?s easement and does not cause
unnecessary injury to the landowner.

?23 First, touching the water?s bed is reasonably necessary
and convenient for the effective enjoyment of the public?s
easement. The public has the RIGHT to float, hunt, fish, and
participate in all lawful activities that utilize state waters.
The practical reality is that the public cannot effectively enjoy
its RIGHT to ?utilize? the water to engage in recreational
activities without touching the water?s bed.

?24 In its holding, the district court recognized that
touching the river?s bed may be ?a necessary incident? to
utilizing the water to float. It may be just as necessary,
however, when utilizing the water to hunt or fish. The Conatsers
urge this court to take judicial notice of the fact ?that people
engaged in fishing often do so by wading into the water itself,
walking up or downstream in pursuit of a favorable spot.? We
agree that touching the water?s bed is a common action in fishing
and that it is reasonably necessary for the effective enjoyment
of it. The same is true for hunting.


***************************************************************
Wiley,
I am nominating that for post of the
century on Monster Muleys!

Your are spot on.
 
This bill is a joke, and will be overturned eventually.

It prevents people from wading in streams, or floating through streams that cross private property.

The supreme court in: Idaho, Montana, Alaska, and Utah have all ruled that streams and stream beds are PUBLIC property.

You could not access public property via private property before this bill was introduced.
 
From UDWR:

Answers about Fishing Change
Available at New Web Page

If you're an angler in Utah -- especially one who likes to fish rivers and streams -- you've probably heard about House Bill 141.

And what you've heard may have left you confused about what the bill does and doesn't do.

The Utah Legislature passed the bill during this past legislative session. Gov. Gary Herbert signed the bill on March 31.

To help clear up the confusion and get correct information to anglers, the Division of Wildlife Resources has placed some information on its Web site.

The information is available at www.wildlife.utah.gov/streamaccess .

The new law goes into effect May 11.






TONY MANDILE
48e63dfa482a34a9.jpg

How To Hunt Coues Deer
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-01-10 AT 04:27PM (MST)[p]Todd,

Any comments.....
"Dude", am I still way misinformed/??????
Maybe the "UDWR" DWR, hasn't read, and or understands the new bill//LAW either!!!!

Rob
The snowmister
 
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