Just went through yellowstone...

dryflyelk

dryflyelk

Active Member
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first time in several years. Took the wife and boys and did both loops.

Besides the obvious beauty of the scenery, one thing jumped out at me: where are all the animals? I saw three cow elk near madison. That's IT for elk, deer or moose. No more elk. No more deer. No moose. That's for about 8 hours in a car touring some of the best habitat in the world.

I did, however, go to the grizzly and wolf discovery center in west yellowstone. The workers there were quick to tell me how beneficial the wolves have been for the park and how much healthier everything was because of them. They even have a display of elk jaws showing that the pre-wolf elk were getting tooth decay and eating the wrong kinds of plants, as opposed to the now stressed out elk who are eating what they are supposed to, so they have great teeth.

Horrible. I had a pit in my stomach realizing what is coming for our utah elk herds.
 
The populations have changed obviously. Back in the 80's and 90's you may have noticed mass herds of elk starvation due to overpopulation. Not good. Now the critters seem scarce but there are plenty around. I would like to see more myself but getting out of the car is a great start. Hopefully with wolf management in process we will see a better balance. It may take a few years but I am confident we will get there. I bought my wolf tag and am excited to lay one down.

I go to the park 3 or 4 times a year and sometimes you see a lot of elk and moose and sometimes you don't see any. We went through Cooke City and saw 4 separate moose just after I started complaining about the moose population. I wouldn't give up hope after going to the park once in the past several years at the worst time of the year to see animals.
 
Why didn't they say that in the first place??

Fewer elk but better teeth!!

Now I get it.


Sickening, I couldn't have sat through that.
 
On a lighter note, a family friend (a photographer) took this pic this year when he was snapping shots of the elk. Somebody decided they needed a closer view than he did....
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The wolves could feed on that for a year!!!


Government doesn't fix anything and has spent trillions proving it!!!
Let's face it...After Monday and Tuesday, even the calender says WTF!
 
Yes those are good calf bearing hips!


When they came for the road hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the oppurtunists I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the public land hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for me there was no one left to say anything!
 
You guys are horrible and totally out of line, not too mention disrespectful, i can't believe you guys!!

Wait.....yes i can. LMAO!!!! :7
 
I was talking to an old timer the other day. He said he remembers when they had a hunt for when the elk migrated out of the Park in the early winter. He said it was a hard tag to draw, but if you hit the migration right, it was a fun hunt. He said it was a boost to the local economy and there were a lot of happy hunters and even happy kids who shot their first big game animal.

He said a lot of eletist anti hunter types would really get mad for some reason.

Thank goodness those days are over. With any luck at all, wolves will spread out enough so Utard elk won't get bad teeth.

Eel
 
The part of yellowstone around the west entranc where is burned really bad is nearly devoid of big game. The lodgepoles are coming back so thick you can't walk thru them.

Most of the elk and other animals we saw were around Gardiner and Mammoth.

Glad to hear that the elk won't have to worry about bad teeth...
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-17-11 AT 00:33AM (MST)[p]I have been through the park 8 times this year, and have not seen a total of 15 elk. I have not seen a moose in the park. I have seen several grizzly bears, and a few mule deer.
 
But Jakie boy did you see her there?

Oh I see you went there to meet her. You and your creepy friends from the internet.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Aug-17-11
>AT 00:33?AM (MST)
>
>I have been through the park
>8 times this year, and
>have not seen a total
>of 15 elk. I have
>not seen a moose in
>the park. I have seen
>several grizzly bears, and a
>few mule deer.

I've seen more game in my headlights. Go through the Park during daylight hours. The population has changed we can all agree but there are certain times to go through the park that are better than others. I keep hearing about how the animals are decimated but still see tons of game. Where is everyone going and when? July and August during mid day are without a doubt the worst times to go. Animals are up high in remote areas trying to get away from the bugs. Pretty obvious.

The sky is NOT falling.
 
Contrary to the thoughts of the Park Service, no management does not equal good management. I live in Wyoming and I'm embarassed to say the Jellystone is the worst managed part of our state. If a private landowner managed their property like that, people would scream bloody murder.

There are WAY TOO MANY bison in the park. It's overgrazed from everything I see.

From the wildlife perspective, if there are plenty of critters, why have all of the elk and moose seasons on adjacent hunt areas in Wyoming and Montana been severly reduced. And why are the average ages of elk going up and up? No calves, excessive predation. No rocket science here.
 
+1, way to many bison for habitat to support. They are way over population objectives even with removing 100's last winter.

from the "Heartland of Wyoming"
 
Zigga
I believe you're wrong where every thing has gone, they did a study a couple of years ago about a place in Canada that the elk MOVED closer to the Villages(golf course)WHY to get away from the wolves, BUT not the Yellowstone elk they must be different they moved away from that type of protection.I have seen people walk right up to elk in Yellowstone.Now I can see why you would think that they are up high hiding out from the bugs and hot weather and that where they should be if the wolves wasn't up high too But no the wolves must be on a holiday and are sitting down by the lodges getting handouts. Read the articles that Dr Kay wrote about how the wolves are raising hell up in Yellowstone, I think I will believe him over you, sorry if your feeling are bent,

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
Right on!!So we can see the big game in Yellowstone if we go at night!Stupid me,wanting to actually see some during daylight hours!Haven't been there for about 20 years,but we saw big game ALL DAY LONG(excuse the shouting)back then.Never saw a bear there,and that was before the introduction of a non-native species of wolf that love to "pack kill" for fun.Okay,they do eat,too.The Montana late season hunts have gone from several thousand down to nothing.You're right,Zigga.The sky's not falling.The elk and moose are.
 
I agree nontypical 100%. It's too bad. Now we just need to visit Yellowstone at night to see animals. Wildlife populations in Yellowstone are as healthy as our present government and economy. I hope some "different change" will be coming.
 
Yeah, most of us can agree that jellystone is in a downward spiral. I've been there quite a few times over the years, but I hadn't been in about 5. I was stunned at the lack of animals. And no, it wasn't because it was august or because it was hot. It was because there aren't as many animals. I saw 3 elk, about a hundred bison, a coyote, and a griz. No deer, no bull elk, no antelope, no moose. But gosh darnit, I'd bet those wolves are healthy.
 
Do you think they can show a skull of a wolf and see it when there was plenty of elk to eat and see if their teeth were decaying then, vrs. now when there isn't much for them to eat.
 
With all the conflicting reports this reminds me of the wolf post we had a while back that was actually a coyote and most thought it was either a wolf or a hybrid. I guess that goes to show that most on here don't know what they hell they are looking at if they can find it. YNP is not a frickin zoo and if you don't think the elk were grossly overpopulated then your brain dead. Average elk age is going up and up??? WTF?? But now we have way too many bison. WTF??? Wolves kill them too you know. This is getting a bit hilarious. With the wolf population under state control you will see populations of elk and moose bounce back but not overnight like you want. You will still need to get out of your vehicle to kill an elk in the neighboring areas. Elk B tags? Huh??

I recommend going to the park in February through May if you want to see elk. They are hungry and way more visible....if you know what to look for but I'm guessing we will never again have enough elk for some people.

Please post how the Park should be managed. This should be hysterical.
 
Zigga- there is only one pack of wolves in the park that preys occasionally on bison, fyi. They much prefer elk and moose.

http://billingsgazette.com/news/sta...cle_d0deedab-0a8b-5e29-9edb-fb79fefcfe60.html

My original point was that I can drive around strawberry reservoir or any of the other parks and recreation areas around here and see many more animals than are available to view in yellowstone. I was there at dusk and dawn. nothing. If you think all is well in yellowstone, well...then...i've got no more to say.
 
Wolf lovers and Obama lovers will always make up an excuse why it's not their fault. You can't change them.

Eel
 
Thought I heard about some disease running through the packs in the park the past few years. I heard even the famous pack that hung out in the Lamar Valley got wiped out. Was it distemper?

I had a coworker come back from vacation and said the same thing about a long day through the park this weekend seeing nothing. We were there last May and saw a bunch, as we did about 5 years ago. The good news is that if the wolves have wiped out the only things they like to eat, Moose and Elk, then I'm sure their numbers will be going down also.
 
The elk have better teeth. That sounds like typical Park Service Nazi BS to me.
A few years ago the YNP wanted to get rid of the Mountain goats. They said they were non-native to YNP. No different than a Hungarian Partridge. That was a quote. The forest service and park service should all be looked at to see where we can trim some pork from the budget. Ron
 
Eel, you forgot to take your meds. What the eff are you talking about? What do wolves have to do with Barry? w had 8 years to wipe wolves out but now it's Barry's fault?

This would be a lot easier if we talked in terms of reality. Who's second??
 
>Wolf lovers and Obama lovers will
>always make up an excuse
>why it's not their fault.
>You can't change them.
>
>Eel
And Ziggar will always find a way to start an internet ##### fight,cant change that either...

"I absolutely had my head up my azz "
TOPGUN
 
Well when people try to tell me they found a deer shed when it's a moose shed I'll sure correct them on it. Who wouldn't?

When I smell bllshit I'll call you on it, especially if it's in my own back yard.
 
Zigga tries to subvert the point of this thread by skewing what others say to get off-subject.Another liberal ploy.We're not falling for it,Zig!!This post isn't about how we would manage YNP,or about "Barry"(?).Eel wasn't blaming your buddy "Barry"(wtf is that?).He was merely making a comparison.And no one was claiming they knew how to manage YNP.Although I am sure there are many who could do a better job than our federal govt.They do as good a job managing YNP as they do with everything else they touch.
 
Skewing off the subject?

Please explain. All I said was there are lots of game in the Park.....still.
 
>But Jakie boy did you see
>her there?
>
>Oh I see you went there
>to meet her. You and
>your creepy friends from the
>internet.


???????
Joe, is that Australian sun melting your brain? I don't follow
 
And all I am sayng, along with others, is that there is not as much game in the Park, except maybe for wolves.

from the "Heartland of Wyoming"
 
Ziggar not only do you change the subject of a thread to start a fight you change the facts,do you work for the left wing liberal machine that we have running our country right now?Are you actually one of the PETA crowd posing as a hunter?Do you post anything that is an attempt at an insult or a flame?Anything?
 
Zigga, I didn't say that to start an argument.

Anywhere wolves are established, elk and moose suffer big time. Wolf lovers always blame it on something else.

Google "Obama blames" You'll get about 6,880,000 results. Try it.

Eel
 
>Zigga, I didn't say that to
>start an argument.
>
>Anywhere wolves are established, elk and
>moose suffer big time. Wolf
>lovers always blame it on
>something else.
>
>Google "Obama blames" You'll get about
>6,880,000 results. Try it.
>
>Eel


I had no idea this was rocket science. The wolves were put there to create a balance which happened many years ago. Early on the enviro wackos saw this as an opening for a way to prey on misguided idiots with money to send donations for eternity. (Remember when you idiots said the wolves were put there by the enviro wackos to take away our guns?? Oh the days of the w administration. Too funny.) Our justice system is so flawed that they let this disaster unfold and now they are starting to see the light. The numbers the enviro wackos want is entirely impossible to reach and they know that. They are not pulling this crap to save wolves, they are doing it to collect money from simple minded idiots with cash. Anytime you put a fox in the hen house you are going to end up with fewer hens. Is that really difficult to comprehend? Like I've send a thousand times, there were WAY too many elk for the area. Starvation is uglier than a wolf kill and if you don't know that then you haven't seen it. Yes there are less moose, elk, etc. but what else did you expect after zero wolf management for so long? THERE IS STILL PLENTY OF ANIMALS IN THE PARK TO ENJOY, JUST DON'T EXPECT THE GOOD OLE DAYS BECAUSE IT'S NOT A FRICKEN ZOO!!!

Go to YNP in February after the major migration and you will still see elk all over the place, probably even a moose. The wolves needed to be shot on sight outside the park from day 1 to keep them under control but I don't make the rules. Sorry.


Eel,

One thing I noticed during the w administration when he had the house and senate was that EVERYTHING was Clinton's fault. Looks like it's payback time. Sucks doesn't it?
 
I saw quite a few elk and deer 2 weeks ago. About 120 elk and 30 deer.
I think many are in the higher areas away from roads.
 
Normally, I would not post to a thread like this. It seems almost pointless. Politics get involved and reason disappears. I live on the outskirts of the east side of YNP. I spend days hiking in and out of YNP and hunting the areas close to the park. This goes on from May until December. The elk and moose populations have been decimated. They aren't hiding in the backcountry or staying off the road until dark. Last year, I saw two moose in close to 50 days of hiking. This year I have yet to see a single moose. Elk numbers are way down. On a good 12-18 mile hike in the backcountry, I am lucky to see a few camp deer at the trailhead and maybe ten elk. The elk are hanging in areas you would associate with bighorn sheep or out in the desert with the antelope.This is especially true in the North Fork, Sunlight and Clarks Fork areas. Last year, I hiked from the south side of Dike Mountain to the head of One Hunt Creek towards the Upper Miller Cr. Patrol Station. I saw a single mule deer and two wolves. Also lots of grizzly bear sign. The elk outfitters have closed most of their elk camps in the Sunlight Basin and Crandall areas. General elk hunts have been eliminated and limited quota hunts are not very good. Elk hunting was bad on the North Fork of the Shoshone in 2010 and I have heard that a popular outfitter will be closing his camp in a hunting area made famous by Buffalo Bill.
Some people push this off on global warming or drought. I think the beaver biologist (wolf expert)for YNP pushes that theory. This year and last year the moisture was good and I have never seen more grass and browse for deer, elk and moose this year. Try finding a sustainable cow/calf ratio for elk in the North Fork, Clarks Fork, Sunlight Basin or Crandall areas. The only elk are older age class animals.
I see wolves and grizzly bear in almost every drainage I hike. On my Friday hike into a wilderness area above Dead Indian Meadows all I saw was wolf and bear scat. A fresh wolf turd had black angus hair in it.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion as to the cause. The ESA is broken and everyone knows it. The judiciary is more than willing to accomodate the never ending lawsuits. Our law schools keep kicking out a never ending supply of environmental lawyers. The EAJA gives these new lawyers a lucrative career. The politicians love all the eco-elite campaign money that pours into their campaigns. I love hearing from Ed Markey of Mass., Ben Cardon of Maryland, and Barbara Boxer, California on how we need to save and preserve all these predators. The only thing they want to preserve is their jobs. They wouldn't know a grizzly bear or a gray wolf if they saw one.
Sure the elk populations were very high in the park in the 1990's. They needed to be trimmed and many hunters were feeding their families and keeping the herds down. Now there is virtually nothing left. Just keep kidding yourselves into thinking that all is well in YNP.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-21-11 AT 10:53AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Aug-21-11 AT 10:52?AM (MST)

Nothing left in YNP?

Really?

How do you explain the high harvest of big bulls last year in MT when they poured out of Yellowstone?

Also, those late hunts out of Gardiner were a fuggin' joke...slobbiest hunt in all of Montana.
 
Zigga, I didn't know that wolves were introduced into YNP for the specific purpose of knocking down the over population of elk. I assumed YNP was used because it was the only large property available where wolves could get a foot hold in relative safety, without starting a civil war.

Well, we solved the elk over population problem for sure. The only question remains in my mind is, did we burn down the house to get rid of the rats? I guess it's a matter of opinion and time will tell.

Eel
 
>LAST EDITED ON Aug-21-11
>AT 10:53?AM (MST)
>
>LAST EDITED ON Aug-21-11
>AT 10:52?AM (MST)
>
>Nothing left in YNP?
>
>Really?
>
>How do you explain the high
>harvest of big bulls last
>year in MT when they
>poured out of Yellowstone?
>
>Also, those late hunts out of
>Gardiner were a fuggin' joke...slobbiest
>hunt in all of Montana.
>


I always loved a good fist-fight story or bullet dodging story or the one where whoever had their running shoes on got to put their tag on the bull first....if they could weather a flurry of fists and death threats and gun pointing. Ahhhh the good ole days of the Yellowstone hunt.

It looks like some see animals in the park still and some don't. I'm sure some areas have been hit harder than others and I don't cover all 2.2 million acres like some might but we go to see animals and that is exactly what we do. Should we have just let hunters into the park to thin out game to keep starvation at bay? I don't think there were too many popular options but the wolf won and now we need to manage and stop crying about it.

I enjoy being the responsible party so fire away.
 
Buzz H,
If you read my post, I am speaking purely about the elk numbers in the Crandall, Sunlight Basin, North Fork Shoshone and Clarks Fork areas. These areas represent most of the east boundary of YNP. What do the recent harvest statistics in elk units 50,51,52,53, 55 and 56 indicate to you? Do you think the stats will be any different when Wyoming G&F posts them for 2010? Perhaps the fact that Unit 50, 51,52 and 53 have all gone limited quota for elk indicates nothing to you? Perhaps the elimination of most of the late bull or cow seasons in those units and also in 55 and 56 mean nothing? Perhaps the changes in the dates for the general deer season in 105 and 106 (eliminating the November general hunt on migratory deer)was just another coincidence? Perhaps the reductions in the moose quotas around YNP are also just a coincidence? Perhaps the most recent elk count of 3,900 for the northern YNP herd is just a mistake? I am amazed at how much you know about YNP and NW Wyoming from your location in Laramie. Right or wrong, my observations are my own.

We do agree about the Gardiner late hunts. Those hunts are now history, but I am sure it has nothing to do with diminishing elk numbers.

All the best.
 
mightyhunter,

Not sure how 3900 equals "nothing left".

Elk populations have been lower than current populations in the not-to-distant past...and prior to wolf reintroduction. How do you explain that? Do you think the habitat in Yellowstone has changed at all since 1988? Do you think that has any impact on elk numbers? How about a couple hard winters? Any impact? If you think its all wolves, you're full of chit.

As to the moose populations, combination of things and a big part of the population decline is changing habitat, no question. Predation also is a factor, no question.

For the record, I've elk hunted some of the areas you mentioned...I've been known to stray from Laramie for work and hunting.

Just sayin'...
 
Buzz H,

I said "virtually" nothing left in my post. You said "nothing left" in your rebuttal. That is a mistatement on your part and fits your usual method of attacking with a half truth. Is that part of your training? Telling someone they are full of "chit" is another way to personalize your attacks. Is that also part of your training? Stick to the facts, but that just wouldn't be you.

If you think 3,900 elk is fine when the same herd was close to 20,000 in 1995, that is just your opinion. If you believe that the wolves had little or nothing to do with that, again that is just your opinion. I believe you would be singing a different tune if the wolf and grizzly bear populations had exploded in your part of the state(Snowy or Laramie Ranges). Sure the 1988 fires in YNP caused some changes. Other big fires, Crow Creek, Little Rock, and Gunbarrel Creek have also changed the area. Some of the change has been good and some bad. Hard winters are really not much of a factor in this part of Wyoming. You would know that if you lived here. There is plenty of good winter range for the elk and deer to migrate into. Drought hasn't been an issue here for at least 5 years, yet the ungulate populations continue to decline. This year has been the wettest in years and river flows are just now starting to drop. For the sake of comparison, the Wyoming Range elk and deer always have a much tougher time of it during a hard winter. That is why they have established feeding areas over there. The Wyoming Range did experience some winter kill in 2011. I haven't heard any wildlife biologist claim the same for this area.

My opinion is very simple. Wolf and grizzly bear populations are way up in this area. In "my" opinion they are the biggest but not the only factor in the decline of elk and moose populations. You can agree with this or not. I won't tell you that you are full of "chit" if we disagree. That is your way not mine.

How long has it been since you hunted over here? My guess is you wouldn't waste your money trying to draw a tag in the areas I mentioned. I like the area and I know it well. This year, I drew a Unit 10(Hoback)moose tag. I would have preferred a Unit 11 tag closer to home. Unfortunately, the moose are "virtually" gone in this area.

I hunt on foot without horses and always on public land. I can still cover 10-18 miles a day. No road hunting for me. Whatever I take, usually comes out on my back. I have taken some nice mule deer and elk over the years. Persistence and luck have gotten me those animals. By the way, I am no kid.

Just sayin'...
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-21-11 AT 08:29PM (MST)[p]If you think 20,000 elk was "fine"...you're way wrong. I'd argue that anything over 7-8K in Yellowstone is too many. If it the populations were tanking after the first wolves hit Yellowstone...why did the MTFWP continue to issue high numbers of late cow permits until 2005? It was clear way before 2005 that a number of factors were impacting the elk herd, including a herd largely skewed by old, unproductive cows, caused from multiple years of poor hunter harvest and mild winters. Yet, even while numbers continued to drop the outfitters, guides, and hunters in Montana didnt say $hit about it...they just continued to hunt and apply for those late season permits. Does that sound like a responsible thing for them to do?

BTW, according to the data I have the herd is estimated at 4,635, take a look at the Montana Elk Management Plan and see what the desired number of elk is for that herd. At the same time, wolf numbers in the park dropped from 94 to 37. Of further interest is that the last 2 years of cow-calf ratios have been 22 per 100 and 34 per hundred, clearly indicating that recruitment is increasing.

The simple fact remains that the GY elk herd has fluctuated wildly both pre...and post wolf.

I suspect that trend to continue as theres not much that can be done to manage anything in the park. Its just sad that some people relied on a bloated herd of elk to wander from the park for their hunting...

To imply that the only thing going on there is simply predation is wrong-headed and simply not true...not even in the slightest.

Theres plenty of "blame" to go around in whats going on, what has gone on, and what will likely go on in the future.

I suggest hunters get used to traveling to hunt and not relying on cheetoh fed park elk to fill the freezer.
 
Buzz H,

My exact statement was if you think 3,900 elk is fine not if you think 20,000 elk is fine. Again, you mistate what was said to hammer home some point that fits your agenda. You do realize that 3,900 elk in the northern YNP herd means that the herd cannot sustain itself and that the elk population in that herd will continue to decline. That is what the wildlife biologists from both states are saying. You won't ever have to worry about the elk population climbing to your optimum level of 7,000 to 8,000 head.

You continue to cite Montana statistics and ignore the statistics in NW Wyoming. Why is that? Low cow/calf ratios in NW Wyoming don't fit your usual "talking points" or "lefty leanings". The fact that the wolf population is declining in YNP is primarily the result of a declining food source. That is what the beaver biologist, turned wolf expert,for YNP has said. Disease and illegal killings outside the park may also be contributing to the decline. The wolves do move you know. The elk counts in the Jackson area are now showing a declining cow/calf ratio. What do you attribute that to? Remember they feed the elk in the winter in that area. Perhaps the wolf has moved south in search of a larger food source. No, that couldn't be it in your world.

Over the last few years, I have seen about 40 wolves in total in NW Wyoming. Most were in Sunlight-Crandall and a few other groups were in two drainages on the North Fork of the Shoshone. Only one was actually in YNP. What are the odds of me seeing 40 wolves if there are only 350 wolves in Wyoming? Is that a number that you believe to be true?

You state that "to imply that the only thing going on here is simply predation is wrong-headed and simply not true...not even in the slightest". Another mistatement by you of my position on the issue. I assume by this comment that you actually believe that predation by the wolf and grizzly bear has not had the slightest impact on elk, moose and deer populations in NW Wyoming? Quite frankly, I have never known anyone so enslaved to his political leanings and talking points that he can't see what that which is obvious.

just sayin...
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-22-11 AT 08:55AM (MST)[p]Show me some proof that 4600 elk cannot sustain themselves and that you cant build the population.

If thats true, then how in the good chri$t did the yellowstone herd increase from a low of 2700 elk to over 20,000? Keep in mind that before wolf reintroduction there was still a stable population of grizzlies, a much higher coyote population, and also a high lion population. Not to mention a boat-load of hunting pressure from September to February.

Yet, shockingly, and in defiance of your claims and the biologists you've listened to...within a relatively short time, those elk were pushing 20K. How did that happen?

Its also funny to listen to you in regard to the biologists...nice that you choose to disagree with anything that a wolf biologist says, but jump right on board and believe anything biologists tell you in regard to declining elk populations. If its anti-wolf and painting a doom and gloom picture, you believe that, but ignore others. Funny stuff to be sure.

Also, the feeding that takes place in Jackson and other areas of Wyoming is something I've never been in favor of. It creates wayyy more problems than it solves. Its a waste of effort and costs the hunters of Wyoming a pile of money. Its an artificial situation and ridiculous...akin to what goes on in Texas. Feeding animals to create excessively high populations is never a good idea.

As to your, "you're citing Montana statistics"...well no $hit there sherlock. Is the GY elk herd not a shared herd between Wyoming and Montana? Last I checked it was, but maybe a biologist told you something different?

Also, I suggest reading comprehension, I never said that predation had no impacts,in fact stated the exact opposite. But, I'm also capable of looking at data from 30-40+ years and understand that the GY elk herd is one of the most widely fluctuating herds of elk found anywhere. Theres many reasons why those huge population swings happen...from severe weather, to changing habitat, to hunting pressure, as well as predation...to name a few. That herd has always been that way...long before a wolf was ever reintroduced.

Another thing to consider is that if Wyoming would have its $hit together and had an accepted wolf plan in place, MT, ID, and WY would have all been hunting and controlling wolves for the last 6-10 years. But, the hunting public in Wyoming drank the "we'll show the feds" kool-aid being peddled by the Wyoming stock growers association. That worked out real well didnt it?

While MT and ID are hunting wolves...WY is still in the fuggin' weeds wishing they could.

Congratulations?
 
The Park Service has no credibility. The sum total of every postiion they take is this:

Actions by man = bad.
Actions by anything else = good.

Logging = bad (erosion, unsightly, kills trees, carbon emissions from trucks)
Forest fires = good(brings beautiful flowers and regenerates growth, creates biodiversity, gets rid of the old and makes way for the new. So wonderful!!!)

Hunting = bad (kills defensless animals who are part of nature and a balanced ecosystem)
Wolf release = good (kills elk vermin who have altered the Yellowstone ecosystem because of stupid man. It is so much better now.)

Stuff I've heard:

A ranger Cedar Breaks national monument blamed the bark beetle kills on man's development in Brian Head. (My USU silvicutural professor taught it could be taken care of by sanitation cuts.)

A ranger at Pipe Springs National monument teaches that the valley out there was full of tall green grass until the Mormons overgrazed it. (Show me one kind of grass that can survive the whole blazing hot summer there.)

And the Park Service are the ones who get to "educate" the public about nature.

It is completely in-line with Obama's motto:
"Blame We Can Believe In"
 
Buzz H,

I loved the comments about Wyoming's handling of the wolf issue. You make those comments regularly in almost every post on the subject of the wolf. If you want to believe the nonsense that we would all have been hunting and controlling wolves for the last 6-10 years if not for Wyoming, go ahead. Again, part of your little agenda. I can't imagine why you would live in a state that you so despise. You seem more like a Boulder, Colorado kinda guy. It must be tough being a lefty in Wyoming.

You make this too easy when you pop off with your statistics about sustainable elk herds. The problem with your statistical argument is simple. The number of elk whether it is 4,600 (your claim)or 3,900 (my figure) is not sustainable when the cow/calf ratios keep dropping. Check those ratios out in the areas I mentioned (Sunlight,Crandall,Clarks Fork,North Fork Shoshone). According to Wyoming Game and Fish statistics,the cow/calf ratio in 1998 for the Clarks Fork herd was 42/100, in 2009 it was 9/100. A herd dies off and declines when older age class animals are not replaced by younger animals. Eventually all you have left is a few mature bulls and cows. When they are gone, so is the herd. They don't live forever. If you lived around here and spent time in the area, you would see that this is exactly what is happening here. There just aren't enough calves surviving to adulthood. It isn't rocket science Buzz. A vibrant and growing elk herd depends upon the survival of its calves. Being the expert, you should know that.

You seem to love the beaver biologist, turned wolf expert, that runs the program for YNP. He has written a book and made a career off his opinions. When he retires he can become the darling of the eco-elites and other lefty leaners like yourself. He always tells them what they want to hear.

just sayin..
 
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I dont even know the biologist you keep harping about...I couldnt care less what one biologist thinks.

The GY elk herd has had a cow-calf ratio of 22 per hundred and 34 per hundred the last 2 years. What does that tell you?

Just because your couple drainages have lower cow-calf ratios doesnt mean the entire herd is experiencing the same or that the over-all herd cant still be expanding. The WYG&F as well as the MTFWP do not manage elk herds based on individual drainages, never have and never will.

How could the cow-calf ratios be 42 per 100 in 1998 with the big-bad wolf being reintroduced in 1993? You saying that wolves werent established in Yellowstone by 1998? Also, why are you using cow-calf data from 2009? Maybe because the cow-calf ratio jumped to 22 per hundred in 2010 and 34 per hundred in 2011? I bet so.

You also realize that you dont recover from a long-term drought in a year...or even 5 years right? Surely you understand plant succession?

Lots of things you're posting dont add up.

This situation is not strictly a predator problem...anyone with a single firing brain cell knows it.

I have no agenda regarding the way Wyoming has mis-handled the wolf situation and continues to fugg it up. I've written countless letters to the Wyoming legislature, Governors office, etc. regarding their ridiculous stance on this issue. I even went so far as to lobby the Hill and met with Lummis, Barrasso, and Enzi on this issue. If its been handled so well in Wyoming...why have Montana and Idaho already had one hunt, have full state control now, and will be hunting them in less than 2 weeks again? You think Wyoming has done things right? Yeah sure.

Instead of wasting my time lobbying in D.C. trying to talk sense into politicians that dont know $hit from clay about wolves, habitat, elk, or management of same, I'd of been much happier trying to fill a stringer of wolf hides for my wall. But, the good-old-boys in Wyoming wouldnt allow that to happen.

Your whining doesnt change the facts...
 
I would encourage anyone that is interested in this subject to read the article by Shauna Stephenson in the November 2010 issue of Wyoming Wildlife. It discusses the Clarks Fork elk herd in depth. It also discusses the Cody elk herd and also the Jackson Hole herd. It tells you what to expect in the future with elk herds. This article is available online and is very informative.

Buzz H, you have a great way about you. Everyone who disagrees with you becomes the subject of name calling and personal attacks. You are the master of the half truth and the misquote. You use statistics when they fit your agenda and ignore them when they don't. You remind me of many of the lawyers I came across in the practice of law. They huffed, they puffed and they filibustered but in the end they lost the case. I can only assume that you must be naive if you think the eco-elite groups were actually going to give up on the wolf issue years ago if only Wyoming had just gone along with Idaho and Montana.

It must be really hard living in a world where everyone else isn't as smart as you. Keep drinking the party Kool-Aid and keep writing those letters to Congress and lobbying the Hill. I am guessing that Barasso, Enzi, Lummis and Mead put a lot of stock in what you have to say.

just sayin...
 
Facts are facts...sorry you cant handle them. Wyoming has been the issue and done more to delay wolf delisting than the "eco-elite groups", no question.

Montana and Idaho are less than 2 weeks from liberal wolf seasons and have beat the $hit out of the "eco-elite groups" in court.

How's that wolf season working out for Wyoming this year?

Laffin'...
 
Mighthunter---Haven't you learned by now that it's impossible to have any kind of a meaningful discussion with a pompous person who thinks he's an expert on everything? I gave up after about the 100th time I heard this: "Wyoming is the whole cause of the wolf situation lasting..." crap. It's too bad that some people don't think that others should stick to their convictions and keep up the good fight until they win. The plan Wyoming came up with that was approved and then backed out of by the Feds is not that different from what has finally been agreed upon and that should be approved in the next few months. Until the ESA is taken completely out of the realm of politics and the courts and the decisions made by the biological experts, we will continue to have problems with not only wolves, but also grizzlies and other animals that are draining the treasury dry from lawsuits alone.
 
What a ridiculous post, in particular this part "Until the ESA is taken completely out of the realm of politics and the courts"

Good luck with that...
 
No more ridiculous and a lot more accurate than most of the BS you post, LOL! Also, I didn't say it would ever happen because I'm sure it won't, but that's what needs to be taken out of the equation when we're talking about proper game management by the individual states.
 
Hey everyone. Take it easy on Zigga and the others in the academic leaning crowd. You will find that there is a tendency for people who put a lot of stock in the "Wildlife Sciences" to find it difficult to reject the mountains of "scientific" literature written to support the "all natural" perspective.

They find great comfort in the fact that it is all "scientific" and become very defensive when the "science" is questioned- very similar to those who get defensive when the holes in their religion are questioned.

The reality is that most "science" that comes out of our academic institutions these days is fatally flawed because the scientific community has lowered their standards for complete randomness in statistical data collection in favor of convenience. Anyone who knows anything about statistics knows that complete randomness in data collection it the beating heart of accuracy in statistics. If you don't assure complete randomness, you can come up with just about anything and project it as a sample of the reality- which is exactly where our academic community has stooped to.

So, take it easy on these guys. It's a tough pill to swallow that the "science" that "leads to all truth" is largely a bunch of bunk.
 
Whatever, but I'll take science over the courts and politics any damn day in what we're talking about!!!
 
the old timers had good reason to wipe them out!!
then a bunch of anti-hunters had good reason to bring them back!!

hey zigga how many people can get into yellowstone in jan-feb when all the elk are around?
 
>
>hey zigga how many people can
>get into yellowstone in jan-feb
>when all the elk are
>around?

Any body willing to pay for the ticket at the gate?
 
>the old timers had good reason
>to wipe them out!!
>then a bunch of anti-hunters had
>good reason to bring them
>back!!
>
>hey zigga how many people can
>get into yellowstone in jan-feb
>when all the elk are
>around?


I hate to put most of you in this group but this post summarizes whey we are having problems. Reality is a wonderful thing and more people here need to try it. Old timers did a lot of things good and bad but let's live in the present for the love of God.

We have wolves.
We need to manage wolves.
We need to wipe out enviros that are fighting the science behind good management by educating the simple minded idiots that fund wacko enviros.
We need to fix the justice system so it doesn't waste precious resources like our wildlife and money to manage wildlife.
You guys tend to overcomplicate things.

You've got to have rocks in your head if you think I want unlimited wolves and don't see problems they cause. derrrrr! Any animal left unmanaged will create problems. No that's not rocket science either.


Referring to the question.

Q. How many people can get into the park in January and February you ask.

A. I think this is a trick question so I will use my CPA skills. After crunching numbers and carrying the 1 and multiplying by 2 and dividing by 3 my answer is....47,839.623 people.

How close am I?

I usually hire a buddy down the street that owns a stealth chopper (exact replica of the chopper that got bin laden), put on my stealth cammo, fly about 3 feet off the ground in the deepest darkest part of YNP, repel down (3 feet) and start belly crawling so the feds don't catch me.

Or sometimes I show my pass at the gate with the wife and kid and enjoy a weekend.


Another reason you guys make me wonder.
 
Buzz,

Top's post about getting rid of the ESA is not ridiculous at all. You know perfectly well that ESA is used for alternative purposes more often than not. The spotted owl wasn't about the spotted owl. It was about logging.

Environmentalists can imagine problems faster than reality can reveal their nonsense. The ESA is ususally a means by which they can get their way before reality can show something different.

Enviros always pretend to be so science based. The reality is they are emotionally based and they selectively pick and interpret science to accomplish their purposes.

Enviros wanted to put the wolf in the park because they knew the population had to be controlled and they hate hunters. They would rather have a decimated elk herd by wolves than a moderate sized herd by hunters.

Well it worked. The elk will likely be way below carrying capacity from here on out and a trigger wasn't pulled. Enviros will find ways to spin it so it sounds so wonderful. The trees, the frogs, the flowers.... and they will turn a blind eye to the fact that an elk fawn hardly has a chance, numbers are down and will stay down, and the wolves are causing problems outside of the park.

Enviros used to say preditors just thinned the herd, killed the old and made way for the new. It would make the herd stronger!!! They made it sound so wonderful. LIARS!!!! Once again, reality showed in time the enviros were wrong. The wolves killed the old and the young and now there isn't much in between. But enviros don't care because it was never about making a healthy elk herd.

You can argue that the herd is healthy because there are still elk in the park. But like a friend of mine once said - the fastest way to get wealthy is to change your definition of wealth. I guess you can do the same thing when talking about the health of a herd.
 
>>the old timers had good reason
>>to wipe them out!!
>>then a bunch of anti-hunters had
>>good reason to bring them
>>back!!
>>
>>hey zigga how many people can
>>get into yellowstone in jan-feb
>>when all the elk are
>>around?
>
>
>I hate to put most of
>you in this group but
>this post summarizes whey we
>are having problems. Reality
>is a wonderful thing and
>more people here need to
>try it. Old timers
>did a lot of things
>good and bad but let's
>live in the present for
>the love of God.
>
>We have wolves.
>We need to manage wolves.
>We need to wipe out enviros
>that are fighting the science
>behind good management by educating
>the simple minded idiots that
>fund wacko enviros.
>We need to fix the justice
>system so it doesn't waste
>precious resources like our wildlife
>and money to manage wildlife.
>
>You guys tend to overcomplicate things.
>
>
>You've got to have rocks in
>your head if you think
>I want unlimited wolves and
>don't see problems they cause.
> derrrrr! Any animal
>left unmanaged will create problems.
> No that's not rocket
>science either.
>
>
>Referring to the question.
>
>Q. How many people can
>get into the park in
>January and February you ask.
>
>
>A. I think this is
>a trick question so I
>will use my CPA skills.
> After crunching numbers and
>carrying the 1 and multiplying
>by 2 and dividing by
>3 my answer is....47,839.623 people.
>
>
>How close am I?
>
>I usually hire a buddy down
>the street that owns a
>stealth chopper (exact replica of
>the chopper that got bin
>laden), put on my stealth
>cammo, fly about 3 feet
>off the ground in the
>deepest darkest part of YNP,
>repel down (3 feet) and
>start belly crawling so the
>feds don't catch me.
>
>Or sometimes I show my pass
>at the gate with the
>wife and kid and enjoy
>a weekend.
>
>
>Another reason you guys make me
>wonder.

first of all most of the old timers were alot smarter than you!!

second check your math and then look at how many people tree huggers and enviro freeks think should be let into yellowstone in winter ?
 
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