KNIGHT ULTRA LITE QUESTIONS

[Horniac]

I am trying to get my Knight Ultra-Lite dialed in for a CO elk hunt and am having some issues. I am hoping you muzzy experts might be able to help out with a few issues I am still having;

1. I had problems originally with my 209 primers not igniting or there being a split second hang fire with the factory breechplug. When I look through the flash hole it looks like there are 3 small circles touching as opposed to just one hole. Is the flash hole supposed to be perfectly round and if so what is the diameter?
2. After doing various web searches I decided to change out my factory breechplug with a SKS aftermarket breechplug. I am now getting reliable ignition but believe I am still getting blowback causing the bolt to stick on the primers (I’ve had to beat the bolt with a block of wood to open on occasion ) as well as the primers are not removable by hand in the field. I’ve read something about shimming or using o-rings to get more seating pressure on the primer but I don’t know if that is applicable to the Knight Ultra Lite. Would changing the distance on the bolt (Nickle to dime or visa-versa) per the Knight video alleviate the blowback? If not, what is the solution for this gun? Note closing the bolt seems to exert some pressure on the primer.

I am using 100gV of 209 with Thor .501 coppers and have tried Remington STS, Federal 209M and the old Kleenbore primers with no apparent change in blowback. I am unable to source CCI Magnum 209’s but have some Cheddites I haven’t tried yet. I have also tried .50cal fiberwads over the powder and 350g Federal Borelocks.

Pictures of primers are from 3 different range sessions.

Thanks for any input/suggestions!

Horniac

 

[elkassassin]

I Don't have much Experience With Knight SmokePoles!

I'd get Ahold Of Knight & Tell Them You're Using BH 209!

Alot Of Guns Require a Different Breech Plug for BH 209!

Have You Tried Backing The Powder Charge off a Little?

BH 209 Is HOT ####!

 

[txhunter58]

It’s possible switching to a different primer might help. Different brands are different sizes. I had to shim mine. Here is a thread in that

Shimming the 209 Primer Pocket - updated 4/7/16

OK finally getting time to get to this. I am not the best writer in the world so I am hoping this makes sense to most. Headspace or the lack of can be one of the biggest reasons that a primer from the battery cup is forced up into the hammer hole in the face of the bolt. If you look carefully...

www.modernmuzzleloader.com

 

[txhunter58]

I ended up using the high pressure rubber shims

 

[txhunter58]

Don’t ever use Kleenbore or 777 primers with BH 209. It requires a full strength primer to ignite consistently. If you were using them when you had hangfires, that may have been the reason.

 

[Horniac]

I Don't have much Experience With Knight SmokePoles!

I'd get Ahold Of Knight & Tell Them You're Using BH 209!

Alot Of Guns Require a Different Breech Plug for BH 209!

Have You Tried Backing The Powder Charge off a Little?

BH 209 Is HOT ####!

Thanks for the response Elk!

I have talked to Knight and the published max load for this gun is 150gV. I have asked about correcting the blowback but haven’t yet got a response with a fix. I am way under that at 100gV even with BH 209. I have shot some Parker Hydra-Cons 440g lead conicals with 75gV BH 209 with no difference in blowback.

I’ve always had blowback on my primers (i.e. with my T/C Omega) and never even knew that was an issue and just assumed that was what they were supposed to look like after being fired…

Horniac

 

[Horniac]

It’s possible switching to a different primer might help. Different brands are different sizes. I had to shim mine. Here is a thread in that

Shimming the 209 Primer Pocket - updated 4/7/16

OK finally getting time to get to this. I am not the best writer in the world so I am hoping this makes sense to most. Headspace or the lack of can be one of the biggest reasons that a primer from the battery cup is forced up into the hammer hole in the face of the bolt. If you look carefully...

www.modernmuzzleloader.com

Thanks for the response txhunter58. That’s the forum thread I had read about shimming/o-rings I referenced. Just wasn’t sure if there was adjustment in the bolt face to accomplish the same thing or another method on a bolt gun...

Horniac

 

[Horniac]

Don’t ever use Kleenbore or 777 primers with BH 209. It requires a full strength primer to ignite consistently. If you were using them when you had hangfires, that may have been the reason.

I’ve never had a problem with my T/C Omega using these primers but yeah I understand they are not designed to be used with BH-209.

Note I have not had a hangfire since swapping out the Knight breechplug to the aftermarket SSK breechplug.

The problem I am having now is not being able to easily open the bolt and being able to remove the spent primer by hand without tools making any potential follow-up shot a lengthy, cumbersome, and potentially costly process which I am assuming correcting the primer blowback would alleviate…

Horniac

 

[Utah400Elk]

Your issue is the blow back pushing the primer back into the firing pin hole. Not sure if that makes sense. A couple dry fires will push the primer bulge back and allow you to easily open the bolt. I am working with a guy in Tennessee to fix the problem. It’s common with knights. They use too large of a firing pin which causes issue.

 

[Utah400Elk]

I am switching to a LRMP system to fix the issue on blowback and firing pin size. Simply fixing the seal (I recommend a small O ring rather than the metal shims) should help but a couple dry fires are needed to get the primer out. Also just to make sure…You are using a bare primer system and not just the new breech. Sorry have to ask

 

[txhunter58]

Unless I misunderstood what you said, I think there might have been a miscommunication between you and Knight. I suspect knight did not mean to tell you that 150g V of BH 209 was safe in that gun. Unless something has changed, they have a max of 150g Black powder equivalent. That would be equivalent to about 120-125 gr V of BH 209. I would not recommend using more than that.

 

[txhunter58]

Even with a rubber o ring and clean primers I can see blowback in the primer itself. It barely has a dimple even though it reliably goes off. It is pushed back by pressure. So although extraction is better, a few still stick.

But the bolt on my knight LR actually pulls them out.

 

[Utah400Elk]

I have several hundred cci Magnums. Where are you located?

 

[Horniac]

Your issue is the blow back pushing the primer back into the firing pin hole. Not sure if that makes sense. A couple dry fires will push the primer bulge back and allow you to easily open the bolt. I am working with a guy in Tennessee to fix the problem. It’s common with knights. They use too large of a firing pin which causes issue.

Yes that makes sense I will try that to fix the issue of getting the bolt to open without having to use a block of wood…

Thanks,

Horniac

 

[Horniac]

I am switching to a LRMP system to fix the issue on blowback and firing pin size. Simply fixing the seal (I recommend a small O ring rather than the metal shims) should help but a couple dry fires are needed to get the primer out. Also just to make sure…You are using a bare primer system and not just the new breech. Sorry have to ask

?Yes I have the bare primer system with the slot in the bolt face that the 209 primer head slips into and no offense taken. I will try the O-rings but read on the referenced thread that the Knight bolt buggers up the O-rings. Even if I only get a few shots with each O-ring it will be worth it it reduces the blowback so the bolt does not have to be beat open to extract the spent primer…

Thanks for the suggestions!

Horniac

 

[Horniac]

Unless I misunderstood what you said, I think there might have been a miscommunication between you and Knight. I suspect knight did not mean to tell you that 150g V of BH 209 was safe in that gun. Unless something has changed, they have a max of 150g Black powder equivalent. That would be equivalent to about 120-125 gr V of BH 209. I would not recommend using more than that.

Yes you are correct.

The Owner’s manual for the Ultra-Lite says ”Black Powder, and industry approved black powder substitutes (Maximum Powder Charge) 150 grains by volume, in loose or the pelleted powders”.

It then has a warning under the general loading procedure for all of their models: Bolt action; ”DO NOT exceed 120 volumetric units of Blackhorn 209“

I was under the impression that BH-209 is an “industry approved black powder substitute“ so the Owner’s manual under the Ultra-Lite heading could be a little clearer in this regard IMO with respect to BH 209.

I am only shooting 100g V of BH 209 out of this gun so I am 20% or so below the maximum load...

Horniac

 

[txhunter58]

My O rings lasted at least 10 shots. That’s how often I changed them. May have been able to get a few more, but just using 2-3 per session is plenty good for me

 

[sjhgraysage]

I'm shooting 2 Knight Disc Extreme rifles.
They are quite similar to the ultra light.
I use Winchester 209 primers they are the longest primer, in a bare primer bolt and plug configuration. A little crush on the primer will usually stop blow back. With Blackhorn I use between 80 and 100 grains by volume, with bullets in sabots up to 300 grain bullets. I know a knight guy, if you need to get ahold of him, send me a pm.

 

[COLOelkman]

If you are on Rokslide, I'd highly recommend checking with "Sabotloader" as he's extremely knowledgeable with Knights and has an Ultra Lite. Not sure he shoots 209 but he's a Knight expert and I believe he has worked directly with Knight on some issues.

 

[Horniac]

Thanks for all the help guys!

I‘ve got a couple of packs of the O-rings ordered so hopefully that will help alleviate the blowback…

Horniac

 

[elkassassin]

I Do Use The O-Rings on My CVA ACCURA II!

Knight Mighta said a 150 Grains Safe!

But They Surely Wasn't Talking About BH 209!

I Have Shot 200 Grains of Powder Through My Remington!

But It Wasn't BH 209!

I Talked With a REP at The BH 209 Factory & This Is What He Said:

For No Reason Do You Pour Any More Than a 140 Grains of BH 209 in any Gun!

No Doubt They're Gonna Protect Their-selves a Little But That's What He Told Me!

 

[Horniac]

Hey guys thanks for all the help!

I ordered the rubber o-rings and what a difference. Stopping the blowback also cured the bolt sticking closed so I didn’t have to beat it open after every shot. I even had some spent primers fall out just by tipping the gun! Knight should include the O-rings with their guns…

Horniac

 

[sjhgraysage]

That looks like you have sealed up your ignition issue. Congrats! Muzzleloading tends to be a lot of tinkering to get everything right.
I shot my muzzleloader on Sunday, my primers came out spotless except for a little black on the end around the flash hole. I dont have to use an O ring, but I use Winchester primers.
I do have one breech plug that the primers like to stick in and are hard to extract.