Leftover Tag Loophole?

[ArizonaBuild]

Maybe some of you guys can help out with this question.

Leftover tags(antelope):
1- potentially once in a lifetime tags with great trophy quality
2- if acquired you will not lose bonus point
3- if rejected they will return your check with no application fee removed. They will actually return your check in the mail about a week later.

I have read through the regs, specifically R12-4-104 and R12-4-114, and I cant find any rules concerning the leftover tag process.

My question is: What is stopping someone from applying for elk or antelope in the leftover draw multiple times? A roll of stamps costs about $40 and can possibly increase your chance of drawing 100-fold? I did call game and fish about this and they hastily said if they receive more than 1 application per applicant per species they may reject all that persons applications. However I see no legal basis for them to be able to do this. It is first come-first serve.

What do you think?

 

[chasendeer]

Sounds good you would only need the money in the bank to cover one tag if you applied for the same hunt on all the apps.

 

[spcheuvront]

AZB;

If it truely is legal, then go for it, its only stamps!

But, I'll bet my best pair of broke in boots, that loop hole will be closed ASAP!

What do you bet?

I'll bet when Tony chimes in on this one he will have the straight poop, wait and see.

Steve Cheuvront

 

[sremim]

I see it two ways:

The rules are stated in the regs that during the
draw if you submit more than one app you will
be rejected.

It doesn't specifically say the rule applies to the
leftover draw, so maybe you could get away with
it.

But also the rule may just be general enough to
include both draws.....

 

[ArizonaBuild]

I was hoping OutdoorWriter would be able to get some clarification.

From the 09-10 regulations section R12-4-104

L. An applicant shall submit only one valid application per
genus of wildlife for any calendar year, except:
1. If the bag limit is one per calendar year, an unsuccessful
applicant may re-apply for remaining hunt
permit-tags in unfilled hunt areas, as specified in
the hunt permit-tag application schedule published
annually by the Department.

the hunt permit-tag application schedule only states that the tags are available first come-first serve.


It's just my opinion but I don't think they can limit the amount of times you are allowed to apply for a leftover tag.

For instance last year in the deer draw I applied for a strip tag and like 99% of everyone else i wasn't selected. The leftover list came out and there were a few 36C coues tags that looked interesting so I applied for one of those in the mail draw and didn't draw that tag either. Then, a week later, I walked into the office and picked up a 36B coues tag. So I applied a grand total of 3 times for deer last year, twice in the leftover draw. What is the difference between that scenario and this one? Can they take away the tag you currently have just for asking for another one? Without an application fee are you technically even "applying"?

Hopefully there is some guideline or department directive that covers this process as I think they need to have a level playing field. I can imagine there are some people with enough money and free time to really stack the deck.

 

[264X300]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-22-10 AT 04:03PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Apr-22-10 AT 04:01?PM (MST)

Could care less about the left over tag situation, but your point brings an interesting thought to mind. Seems every government agency is trying to drum up new ways to take dollars from those that still have them so this could be a great opportunity for the AZGFD.

How about this. We'll have a big 'ol raffle for any left over tags and here is how it works. Everyone can send in as many apps as they like, but only one per envelope. The app must include a $7.50 application fee or simply put, the cost of a raffle ticket. The leftover drawing will be held at Celebrity Theater on May 22nd with an entrance cost of $10 plus the $5 parking fee. Applicants MUST be present to win. Those who are late simply lose out.

Shoot, if that works, why not just throw out all the reg's forget bonus points and just raffel off all the big game tags. Do the same thing with a $10 raffle ticket price and hold the drawing at the Cardinal's stadium with a $20 entrance fee. Woops, don't want to give the AZGFD any ideas.

You go ahead and do what you want and when you get rejected, you can find an attorney and file against the AZGFD to get your leftover tag. (You would not happen to be from New Mexico would you?) After you win, the the AZGFD will raise tag and license fees once again to pay the addtional attorney fees to either re-write the "Loop Hole" you think you have found or totally re-write the system to change the draw to a raffle.

You say you want a "level playing field", but you also want the AZGFD to allow individuals to apply as many times as they can. How does that make the playing field level? Those with more $$ can apply a lot more than those who do not. Rich man's sport you're pushing for. He who has the gold most likely wins the tag!

Here is where you should be going, since the AZGFD says its first come first served, why do they make you mail in an app? Why can't you camp out at their offices the night before the tags become available to ensure you are first in line so they truely have a first come first served system. Do they really issue tags to the first envelope / application they open or do they choose who to give tags to? Are the envelopes on the top of the stack really the one's that were mailed first? Seems like a mystery there. Maybe that's the Loop-Hole you should work on.

Sorry for the ramble, but I had to throw in.
Seems everyone is always looking for an angle.
264

 

[OutdoorWriter]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-22-10 AT 04:52PM (MST)[p]I haven't yet contacted anyone because I believe I can answer the questions.

>From the 09-10 regulations section R12-4-104
>
>
>L. An applicant shall submit only one valid application per genus of wildlife for >any calendar year, except:
>1. If the bag limit is one per calendar year, an unsuccessful applicant may re->apply for remaining >hunt permit-tags in unfilled hunt areas, as specified in the >hunt permit-tag application schedule published

For the purpose of explanation, there are THREE possible phases to get a LIMITED permit: the computer drawing, 1stC/1stS and the over-the-counter SALE.

I'll start with the rule above (note the bolded words) and the question of how many apps can be submitted in the computer phase of the permit allocations.



The rule above is clear as to the first phase -- ONLY ONE application. Then it goes on with the exceptions and says an unsuccessful applicant may re-apply in the 2nd phase - 1stC/1stS. Even though it is not spelled out, implicit in that exception is what is spelled out in the first part -- ONLY ONE application per person for a genus and APPLICATION phase.

on to the next:
>
>For instance last year in the deer draw I applied for a strip tag and like 99% of >everyone else i wasn't selected. The >leftover list came out and there were a >few 36C coues tags that looked interesting so I applied for one of those in the >mail draw and didn't draw that tag either. Then, a week later, I walked into the >office and picked up a 36B coues tag. So I applied a grand total of 3 times for >deer last year, twice in >the leftover draw. What is the difference between that >scenario and this one?

Not quite. You actually applied only twice. The first ONE was under the computer phase and the 2nd ONE was under the exception in the 1stC/1stS phase. You merely bought the permit you got for 36B in the over-the-counter 3rd phase. In any case, you applied only ONE time in each of the two APPLICATION phases.


>Can they take away the tag you currently have just for asking >for another one?

Not sure what you're actually asking here. If you draw a tag, you CANNOT apply in the 1stC/1stS phase, as stated in the exception with "unsuccessful applicant"

TONY MANDILE

How To Hunt Coues Deer

 

[OutdoorWriter]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-22-10 AT 04:44PM (MST)[p]>Do they really issue tags to the first envelope / application >they open or do they choose who to give tags to?

They do indeed. The envelopes are delivered to the mailroom in bins, that then are taken to the room where the opening happens. There are normally 3-4 people around the table, and each one grabs an envelope and goes through the process.

So where an envelope winds up within the bin(s) takes as much luck as having the computer spit out a low number during the 1st phase of the draw.


TONY MANDILE

How To Hunt Coues Deer

 

[ArizonaBuild]

Thank you Mr Mandile for your reply. You are clearly the foremost authority when it comes to the inner workings of the department and I truly appreciate your input.

It is always those implicit rules that get me! I am relieved that it is spelled out this way.

Not to continue down a losing road, but I had a few more related questions. In the computer draw the rules are very clearly spelled out. As an applicant for a leftover tag in the first draw(before OTC), are there any other rules that are implicit? Like the 10% non res cap, or 20% bonus pass? Also, if I applied for the 2nd draw, why not take the application fee?

>Can they take away the tag you currently have just for asking >for another one?

Not sure what you're actually asking here. If you draw a tag, you CANNOT apply in the 1stC/1stS phase, as stated in the exception with "unsuccessful applicant"

What if i submitted 2 applications. And one was chosen first. Will they process the tag immediately or continue opening envelopes just to see if i applied twice? And if after 1000 envelopes they discover another application will they then deny or reclaim the first tag/application? if so, who would get the tag if they already opened up many envelopes with perhaps hundreds of already rejected applicants.

Obviously this is the one and only time in my lifetime where there will ever be a leftover antelope tag. How many applications do you think they will receive?

 

[azbuster]

Tony,
I think the question is can someone who does blast applications(multiple applications) get away with it for an advantage. The process you decribe in the mail room says yes. Will they look for multilple applications by a successful applicant to disqualify the draw result Tony? I don't know.

 

[spcheuvront]

They will now, bet on it.

S.

 

[OutdoorWriter]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-22-10 AT 06:01PM (MST)[p]>>As an applicant for a leftover tag in the first draw(before OTC), are there any other rules that are implicit? Like the 10% non res cap, or 20% bonus pass?<<

No, none of that applies in the 1stc/1sts or the OTC buys.

>>What if i submitted 2 applications. And one was chosen first. Will they process the tag immediately or continue opening envelopes just to see if i applied twice? And if after 1000 envelopes they discover another application will they then deny or reclaim the first tag/application? <<


You would probably lose the tag and have ALL apps rejected because of the ONLY ONE application per phase as I explained earlier.

>>if so, who would get the tag if they already opened up many envelopes with perhaps hundreds of already rejected applicants. <<

This one's really only a guess on my part...but I would think they keep some semblance of order has to how the prior apps were opened. Thus, whoever was next in line that didn't get the permit for that specific hunt would get the one you lose.

>>Obviously this is the one and only time in my lifetime where there will ever be a leftover antelope tag. How many applications do you think they will receive?<<

How many angels can dance on the head of pin??

I imagine quite a few, but there's no way to put a number on it. I doubt this exact scenario will ever happen again. It was fluke, IMO.


TONY MANDILE

How To Hunt Coues Deer

 

[OutdoorWriter]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-22-10 AT 06:02PM (MST)[p]>>Will they look for multilple applications by a successful applicant to disqualify the draw result Tony?<<

They must eventually open every envelope, even those where they mail checks back. And I would bet EVERY name -- both those who get permits and those who don't -- are put into a computer, which can easily be cross-referenced.

This is why the idea of multiple apps ain't too good and idea. ;-)

TONY MANDILE

How To Hunt Coues Deer

 

[mickeyelk]

Last year I got my application back unopened and returned in the same envelope that I had sent it in.(military hunt) I believe when they reach there objective with tag quotas they just send back your application?

 

[azbuster]

If that is the case mickeyelk everybody buy a couple rolls of stamps. The agreement with the Hopi tribe will lead to more problems than just these leftover tags. Tony with all repect, did we really think Game and Fish would open all applications and input them into the data base. With government the easy way is always taken.

 

[OutdoorWriter]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-28-10 AT 10:17AM (MST)[p]Ok, guys, I did a bit of research over the last few days on this, and here's what I found out.

When the envelope opening commences, they indeed keep a recorded database of ALL of them, including those opened where their choice(s) is already filled. They do this for the first few days or until all the permits are spoken for.

Supposedly, they also open EVERY envelope after the permits are gone and stamp both the envelope and the application with "Unsucessful; Hunt Filled." They then put the check, envelope and application into ANOTHER envelope and return it to Applicant A. They keep a record of such so an applicant cannot claim that they didn't get their money back mailed back.

Now, a few people have tried the "flood the market" thingie in the past. IF that person already received a permit, and the name comes up a 2nd time, ALL apps, including the lucky one will be rejected. The permit then goes to whoever was next in line during the opening. They know, because they have that name and other information in a database.

Let's say Joe Sixpack is the 2nd envelope opened and he gets the Hopi antelope permit. Ten apps later, Charlie Brown is rejected because that permit is already gone. Then some where down the line, another application from Joe Sixpack shows up. That means he loses his permit and Charlie Brown gets it because he was second in line for it.

Sooo...get your roll of stamps and take your chances. ;-)






TONY MANDILE

How To Hunt Coues Deer

 

[OutdoorWriter]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-28-10 AT 10:39AM (MST)[p]Forgot.

This is for Mickeyelk:

If they returned your app in the SAME envelope without opening it, how did they get it to you?

I can only think of three ways:

1. They stamped the envelope "Return To Sender," which isn't too likely.

2. They pasted a label with your address on it over the G&F address.

3. They put it in ANOTHER envelope with your address on it, which is the procedure G&F claims to use. But they also claim the original gets opened along the way so they know who Applicant A is; it might not be the same as the return address on the envelope.

TONY MANDILE

How To Hunt Coues Deer

 

[redrabbit]

If they open and record every app before returning, multiple appliers should be easily detected.

But if G&F gets their in-house on-line application process up and running, this mail-in may all be moot.

You are welcome to visit my Photo Gallery here http://dougkoepsel.smugmug.com/

 

[OutdoorWriter]

>>But if G&F gets their in-house on-line application process up and running, this mail-in may all be moot.<<

A little birdie told me that isn't likely to happen in 2010 but might in 2011.

TONY MANDILE

How To Hunt Coues Deer

 

[javihammer]

I didnt draw a leftover tag. No sour grapes, I had my wife take my application to a specific far north valley post office and rather than put it in the mailbox (as I requested), she did me a favor and handed it to a person at the counter and I suspect it got there a day too soon. It is my fault for not explaining the "it cannot get there too early" detail to her ahead of time. Stupid lazy me .

I think the concern about "mass mailings" is a valid one. I spoke with someone in the draw office and she indicated over a thousand applications were received on the first day. I doubt they actually logged each unsuccessful application that was sent in after the pool of leftovers were given out but I have no information to say they didnt. I agree with Steve, if they didnt log unsuccessful apps this year they will certainly log them next year. I initiated a post about a month ago about concerns with this process. The issue about mass mailing abuse dawned on me at that time but I didnt want to mention it on a public forum and give potential applicants any ideas to game the system.

I am confused about one thing...I dont understand what this issue has to do with the online draw process. We dont need an online draw process in order to fix the leftover tag distribution process. The "regular" mail-in process and electronic drawing would have worked fine in this case. The online application process WILL reduce draw odds, we should all pray the drawing process remains paper for as long as possible. I am not stupid, I know at some point it will come back, I just hope it isnt anytime soon. For those concerned with fairness and equity, I think there should be more controls around group applications. I think that everyone on a group application should be within a specified bonus point range (example: everyone on an app should be within 4 BP of each other). This would keep guys from drawing tags on the backs on their kids, wives, great-grandmothers bonus point banks. But I will leave that issue to a different post.

I also agree with Tony, the quality of leftovers this year was a fluke and these tags will not likely come up again in the future. I wish anyone that got one of these tags the best of luck. Since the leftovers have been distributed this is a pretty dead issue but I thought I owed everyone an update since I made such a stink about this process a month ago.