Montana's Cruel Practical Joke

C

Cowkiller

Member
Messages
65
Yesterday I picked up my mail and found a large envelope from Montana. I held it up to the light. I could see there was a license inside with a carcass tag attached. I thought back and remembered I had applied for sheep and moose in Montana. In wild excitement I ripped open the envelope right there in the post office. Well it turned out to be nothing but the silly little conservation license with two void carcass tags attached to it. I swear they do this on purpose and they "get me" every year. Next year they'll probably stamp the name of the sheep unit I applied for on the outside, just for more laughs.
 
So they don't get you again, moose, sheep and goat come out about the third week in June every year. On the net first of course. mtmuley
 
I did the same thing because it was a lot different than in years past on the little envelope with the conservation tag!! I got mine about 3 weeks ago......I first thought my HELL!! I drew all 3; sheep-moose and goat!
 
I just put in for antelope & got my conservation license too. What the hell do I need that for if I don't get drawn? Just give me all my money back.
 
The conservation license is required to apply for or purchase any tags, resident or not. The Montana FWP site can inform you of what the fee is used for. Probably not pickups. If Montana is so cruel, I bet there are other states that are more friendly. It seems to me that Montana is still a relative bargain to hunt, even after a 7 dollar conservation license. mtmuley
 
I applied for a Montana deer license. I got the unsuccessful result a few weeks back. I had to submit the money for a conservation license with that application but they refunded it when I didn't draw. Some of the quirks in their system really don't make any sense. Montana may be a bargain for sheep and moose but it is definitely one of the most expensive states for somebody that just wants to hunt deer. They also discriminate against do it yourselfers like me, because they give the majority of nonresident tags to outfitters and landowners. I like to hunt in Montana and I don't mind paying the price. I just wish I could apply in a fair drawing for all species at one time including any controlled hunts and then get licenses or refunds and bonus points. Life is complicated enough without Montana having six different drawings and types of optional bonus points and a conservation license that is always necessary but sometimes refunded and sometimes not.
 
Sorry it is such a pain. In reality, I am glad Montana makes it a ##### to apply for non-resident tags. Also, the outfitters need to make a living just like you and me. They live and do business here. Those alloted tags insure a client base for their continuing prosperity. There is no discrimination. As far as the landowner tag, great idea. My family owns enough land for me to participate, but I choose not to. Just hunting the land when I draw a tag is enough. Please don't complain about our rules and regs here in Montana. Just enjoy when you are fortunate enough to draw. mtmuley
 
Shouldn't outfitters earn their clients by offering a service that people want to buy? I know outfitters are always crying that unless they have outfitter licenses set aside they can't guarantee they will have enough clients. So what. They are taking licenses away from one group of hunters (do it yourselfers) and giving them to another (outfitter clients). That is totally unfair and unjustified. If an outfitter can't get enough clients it's simply because his services aren't worth the price.

I don't have a problem with landowner licenses if they are limited to one or two per landowner and not another wholesale transfer of licenses designed to once again line the pockets of outfitters.
 
Cowkiller, I have the landowner preference qualifications right here in front of me. According to the qualification form "Only one person may be delegated landowner preference for each sole proprietorship, partnership, or corporation." Doesn't seem like that would benefit an outfitter much. Landowners can however, lease their property to one outfitter exclusively. The outfitter tags don't guarantee an outfitter clients. Outfitter selection is the hunter's preference. If a hunter chooses an outfitter properly, word of mouth, satisfied and/or successful clients, etc. then the outfitter really has earned that client. The outfitter tags also ensure that hunters that may not be as skilled as yourself, can get a tag even though they aren't "do it yourselfers." Montana FWP has to try to keep all hunters happy. Not a job I would want. mtmuley
 
mtmuley, I agree that Montana FWP has a tough job keeping everyone happy. Actually an impossible job. The same is true for all game departments. I would just like a fair allocation of licenses. I think larger quotas for residents versus nonresidents are fair as are preferences for actual landowners (not for their outfitted nonresident hunters).

You say that "outfitter preferences ensure that outfitter clients can get a tag even though they are not do it yourselfers". That's true but the unfair part is that there is no such program to ensure that do it yourselfers can get a license even though they are not an outfitters client.

Here are the actual 2004 quotas for deer only nonresident tags in Montana.

General Deer (do it yourselfers if they so chose)- 2,300 tags

Landowner Sponsored (designated by landowners, most are outfitter clients or at least paying the landowner to hunt) 2000 tags.

Outfitter Sponsored (all must hire an outfitter before they even apply) unlimited and guaranteed.

As you can see, do it yourselfers are stuck with drawing only once every few years and paying for bonus points every year, while outfitter clients can go hunt Montana anytime they want. The sole purpose of this is to generate business for outfitters without them having to earn it. A fair system is one in which all nonresident tags are in one quota and drawing a tag is based only on luck and or bonus points. Outfitters and landowners can then contact any and all license holders and convince them that it is worthwile to hire them for outfitting services or pay trespass fees to hunt their land.
 
Cowkiller, I agree it must seem unfair. Seems as though the system is geared towards profit. Not only for the outfitter, but for the state. I don't see an even allocation in the immediate future. I know some outfitters and guides personally. All work hard just like us. Ever thought about moving here? mtmuley
 
Atleast they let you go in a wilderness area without a guide.

If Montana could grow mulies like Colorado, Cowkiller would already be there.

Quit whining Cowkiller. You have had enough luck in the last year that you even have me green with envy.

I firmly believe that wildlife shouldn't be managed as a "welfare" program for outfitters. We exist in a market economy defined, love it or hate it, as survival of the fittest. If you can't make it without the state holding your hand then get a real job like the rest of us.
 
Yeah I had more than my share of luck last year. Looks like I used it all up though. I have yet to draw any kind of a tag anywhere for 2004. Of course the gold standard for luck is drawing a desert bighorn tag. I just rolled the dice again in Arizona. It took all of five minutes to apply for deer, elk and sheep. At the end of their online application is a request to rate their process. I gave them an excellent rating. Montana could learn a little from them. Okay I'll quit whining for a while.
 
mtmuley,
Re: moving to Montana. I've been on do it yourself hunts in three of the last five years, and am going on an outfitted hunt this fall, so I have been pretty lucky in getting drawn.
I am 69 years old and am running out of time for what it takes to hunt your country. I was not able to get away to hunt in the west until I retired in 97, so I'm trying to make up for lost time.
I investigated moving to Montana last year . I was interested in becoming a resident, and living there except during the coldest part of the winter when I would come back to Florida and see the grandkids,and evade the worst weather. I contacted FWP and they referred me to the game warden in the area I was interested in. He was very cordial and did his best to help answer my questions. He then referred me to another warden who he said was the authority on residency. This guy to put it mildly was a real ass!He did tell me what the requirements were, and then let me know that he would be all over me, making sure that I met the requirements. It wasn't telling me that was so bothering, but his attitude. He made it very clear that I wasn't welcome. There wasn't one word of his conversation that wasn,t hostile. Needless to say that ended my inquiry. I don't think my attitude caused the problem. I think this guy just didn't want anyone else moving to Montana!
What is the general feeling of the residents? Are folks out there opposed to "immigrants" in general, or is this guy an exception? I know that here in Florida we complain about the snowbirds [even tho I am a transplanted one] But I don't think they are exposed to the hostility that I got. I would be interested in your opinion as to where I am "missing the boat" and if I should renew my quest.
Thanks, Don
 
lefty, Generally, most Montanans are a pretty hospitable bunch. I am a born and raised native, and I used to have a problem with immigrants. What irritates Montanans is the tendency of some newcomers to want to change our way of life. "That's not how we did it in (wherever)." Well, you are not there anymore, and this is how we do it in Montana. It amazes me how some people will move into an area for a supposedly better quality of life, then complain about dirt roads, livestock, no shopping, on and on. If living in Montana suits you and you can put up with some of the rural inconvenience, I am sure you would be well recieved. We do have a few "cities" too though. mtmuley
 
mtmuley, I hear you loud and clear. Thats why we have bumper stickers down here that say "We don't give a damn how you did it up north!" Mostly directed at former big city dwellers who want all the services and conveniences they had up there.
I sure don't see rural as being an inconvenience. My wife and I lived in Orlando for 30 years, and we got out just as soon as we retired in 1997. We go 30 miles for grocery and other shopping, and 75 miles to our doctors, so we are pretty "rural."
I want to say that in addition to the three hunting trips, my wife and I have been to Montana three times since 1997. The last time we spent a month headquartering in Helena and seeing most of the western part of the state. I really love the place, and I think I have spent enough time there to get a good feel for it.I am also wanting to take my older brother out in August if his health holds up. He's 83, and has never been in your area, so I am hoping we can pull it off.
Thanks for your comments, I appreciate it!
 
Cowkiller you make some great points and I totally agree. Giving outfitters guaranteed tags for their clients is nothing but welfare for the outfitters. Like you said, all tags should be drawn randomly and everybody should have a chance at them whether they plan to go with an outfitter or not. The way it is in Montana and several other states, if you want a tag you pretty much are forced into going with an outfitter. Sure you can choose your outfitter, but hunting by yourself is not an option, unless you have several years to wait for a tag.
 
This is a free country, and you are free to hunt states without "outfitter welfare." What's the big deal about waiting for a tag? If everyone that wanted to hunt Montana pulled a general tag, the quality of the experience here would go to HE!!. Montana is big, but hunting pressure is intense. And frankly, I don't feel like having my favorite haunts encroached on anymore. Call me selfish cause I am. The draw odds for non-resident combos are not that bad. Besides, most outastaters that hunt here could use the advantage of a guide. I said it before, "Guaranteed Outfitter Sponsored tags equal revenue for the state." I don't know where some of you that dislike our system here in Montana live, but put yourself in the boots of us that call it home. Probably wouldn't be so free and easy to give out tags then. mtmuley
 
lefty, I meant to reply earlier, but I got off track. I hope you and your brother make it up. Hopefully, there will be no fires. If you would really like a treat, try to be here about this time of year. At least here in the Bitter Root valley, it looks like Ireland. Nothing but green. Enjoy when you are here. mtmuley
 
mtmuley, When we spent a month out there we were in the Bitter Root valley a couple of times late in June, and it is one of my favorite places. As I recall, it was much greener than most anywhere else even as late as we were there. When I looked into getting an outfitter for this fall, I contacted a few in your area, and one of them would have been my choice for our hunt. However, my hunting partner was really wanting a good muley and felt chances would be better between Livingston and Yellowstone. I'm not so sure, but this is his first trip out and I went along with it. Maybe next time!
Regarding the out of state licenses, you make some good points. So far I've been able to get drawn every other year. I hope that trend continues. My guess is that the state of the economy along with the increase in the cost of the license has held the number of applicants down the last three or four years, and made getting drawn a little easier. My brother-in-law, who has hunted with me the last three times, wasn't successful this year.
Going with an outfitter at least one time makes good sense to me. I havn't had any luck with elk on my three do it yourself hunts, so it may be time to see how someone who knows what they are doing operates. The big problem is that I don't have the money to do that often. Years ago when I came to Florida to fish, I would get a guide the first day just to see where and how to fish. Then I could do quite well on my own. I hope this outfitted hunt has the same results.
From my selfish standpoint I wish I could get a license every year since I don't have many years left. But I agree that the quality of Montana's hunting would suffer without limitations.I guess there is no good answer.
 
All I know is that hunting in Montana is best East of Great Falls no sense even coming to eastern Montana as it is a barren waste land and no animals.

Nemont
 
lefty, Thanks for your posts. Guys like you seem to be few and far between. I understand it must be frustrating not to be able to hunt wherever you would like, but it is also frustrating when people think it should be a done deal or close to it to hunt another state. I realize Montana has excellent opportunities for big game. That is why I moved back here for about half the money I made elsewhere. (Money aint everything). Montana's draw system and quotas are there for a reason. It is crowded enough here during season, and any change to benefit non-resident hunters to allow more tags would also lessen the hunting experience for them. I hope you have nothing but the best of luck, and look forward to hearing from you again. Especially after your hunt. mtmuley
 
mtmuley, I think you may have missed my point. I don't want more tags for nonresidents. Montana could have fewer tags and that would be fine with me. In fact Montana probably should issue fewer tags. I just think the nonresident tags that are issued should be distributed fairly. Montana is certainly not the only state that discriminates against non-outfitted hunters. If you don't think these practices are wrong then how would you feel if it were expanded to include residents? Lets say all resident tags were available only by drawing unless you hired an outfitter, in which case you could hunt every year. Would that be fine with you, because outfitters have to make a living? I guarantee that such a law would never be passed in any state because the political backlash from residents would be overwhelming and decisive.
 
Cowkiller, The non-resident tags available are distributed fairly. There are 11,500 awarded through a draw. Am I correct? In order for the system to work as you would like it, wouldn't the number of outfitter sponsored tags have to be available in the general draw? I don't know how many outfitter sponsored tags are sold each year, but I am trying to find out. As far as expanding this practice to include residents, I would be wholeheartedly against it. Why the animosity towards outfitters? Sounds like in some of the posts you could hire one if you felt like it. Our system is not perfect, but dollars are the bottom line. Montana outfitters live here, employ people here, pay taxes here, and spend their money they make from clients here.The State knows that. Is the state you are in non-resident friendly? It sounds like your point is you would your draw odds in Montana to increase. mtmuley
 
Cowkiller, I somehow did not get my last thought across in the last sentence of my prior post. It would seem as though you would be interested in your drawing odds increasing by excluding outfitter sponsored tags, thereby adding them to the general draw. ????? mtmuley
 
Outfitter tags in Montana are unlimited although there is a target number that they try to sell and it is controlled by changing the price of the tags. I am really not interested in increasing my drawing odds. I get in plenty of hunting as it is. I don't want to increase the number of nonresident tags at all. I don't care if they add outfitter tags to the general pool or just do away with them entirely. Anyone who draws a tag should then have the right to decide if they want to hire an outfitter or not. It is also not fair that in Alaska if you want to hunt Dall sheep you have to hire an outfitter and in Wyoming you have to hire an outfitter to hunt in a wilderness area. I have nothing against outfitters. I count several as friends. My home state of Colorado has a few relatively minor preferences for outfitters. These are landowner licenses and the Ranching for Wildlife program. Both are landowner programs. Although outfitters benefit, the programs are not designed purely for outfitter profit as are the other states laws that I mentioned. Outfitters are still thriving here in Colorado. They would love to have Montana's outfitter welfare program and have lobbied for it forever. Somehow they seem to do just fine without it.
 
Cowkiller, I guess if I was facing the idea of having to hire an outfitter, for any hunt, I would feel differently. Apparently there are no easy answers here in Montana, or elsewhere. In my position of plentiful and relatively easily available tags, outfitter free, I can't put myself in a position to judge against our system here in Montana. I do believe that some hunts, and especially some hunters, benefit from outfitters required or not. It sounds as though you do not need their services, but everyone is not that way. As I said before, at least here in Montana, it is based on revenue. Both for the state and the outfitter. Although my posting might sound otherwise, good luck in any of your future Montana tag drawings. mtmuley
 

Click-a-Pic ... Details & Bigger Photos

Member Gallery Photos and Videos!

Screenshot_20240117_040425_Instagram.jpg
IMG_2088.jpeg
IMG_6245.jpeg
IMG_2403.JPG
20200913_122213.jpg
Huge Muley
Screenshot_20240117_040408_Instagram.jpg
F22EDE90-BD94-47A1-87B5-BB7A927B4965.jpeg
IMG_1966.JPG
6469.jpeg
4F89747C-D9EF-4183-979D-8AECC53173D1.png
IMG_5864.jpeg
Back
Top Bottom