More War

What difference does it make? who was with us in the first place? seems to me we've been carrying the weight all the time.

If Obama wants support that's easy, just say unless you help us we're pulling back and we'll wait until you're ready. why should the world fight a battle we're chomping at the bit to fight for them.

Actually he's getting a lot of support. but you have to ask yourself why does Obama need support? why is it our problem to fix?


This is the most important support there is.

http://www.worldbulletin.net/africa...plan-against-isil-arab-league-to-back-updated















Stay thirsty my friends
 
So now it doesn't make a difference, Bush's coalition of the willing was bigger and that was a cluster. Name something the Arab League has done in the name of rooting out terrorist? The Arab league may be on our side in public but go look at which side they will fight on and fund in private.

I never said any of it was our problem but it appears the President has decided it is our problem and is going to ask the American people to spend more blood and treasure on war instead of other priorities.

His rationale is exactly the same as Bush's, "we fight them there so they don't come here".

Now he is going to arm the rebels in Syria to fight ISIS and we are going to be defacto allies to Assad in Syria and the Regime in Iran. The Axis of evil now includes us in our white hats.

What difference does it make, I guess none but if that is your take on it, I don't want to hear another word about Bush and his war of choice in Iraq. It is the exact same policy.

Nemont
 
No it's not the same at all .

Bush started a war with a nation based on nothing factual or proven, if Obama does the same then you have a point. I don't expect that.

Obama has been fighting terrorist organizations sine he took office, this is a continuation of the same project. a battle we will never win.

Obama is being pressured to do something even if it's wrong, odds are 99% it will be wrong. 99% of everything we've done has been wrong.

In my opinion he should continue to do nothing. but that's not going to happen is it?














Stay thirsty my friends
 
Was saddam killing people by the thousands? Had bin laden and his group killed 3k+ people on our soil? Exactly how many farkin reasons do u need meathead?
 
And doing nothing thru the nineties led to 9-11! We don't do something now (versus doing nothing like u recommend) we will have another attack on us soil. U guys bang on the saudis u know what they're doin as we speak? Buildin a 5 stage fence on their border to keep isis out! We should b so smart!
 
So he isn't choosing to go to war? If he has a choice to do nothing or go to war, it is his war of choice. He hasn't gone to congress or the UN, all the things the left lost their minds over. He is just hitting the easy button and deciding that we will fight them there so they don't come here.

That is exactly the same thing. Are you suggesting we have 100% accurate intelligence on ISIS and their intentions?

So he doesn't have the courage to stand up to pressure? Bush was being pressured as well but you said he can't use that as an excuse, so neither can Obama.

Do we factual proof of what ISIS intends? If that is the threshold then Obama ain't close to proof of anything. We have the intel organizations as we had before.

Look at Obama's successes in the Middle East: Knocked off Qaddfi then just let it go up in flames, I wonder how the Libyan people feel now that we abandoned our embassy? Supported the removal of Mubarak in Egypt, talk about democracy and now we support a Military Dictatorship there. Seems like everything he touches there has as bad an outcome as Bush's policies have had. Maybe nobody should cheer on more of the same.

What is the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results?

Nemont
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-09-14 AT 03:39PM (MST)[p]>And doing nothing thru the nineties
>led to 9-11! We don't
>do something now (versus doing
>nothing like u recommend) we
>will have another attack on
>us soil. U guys bang
>on the saudis u know
>what they're doin as we
>speak? Buildin a 5 stage
>fence on their border to
>keep isis out! We should
>b so smart!


Tell me when you were in the Middle East, how many miles of Border does Saudi Arabia have to defend with how big of an Army?

Perhaps they should have quit funneling money to the Madrasas that pump out new Islamic fanatics on a daily basis. There would be no ISIS without their Sunni brothers in Saudi Arabia and the Saudi Royal Family exporting Wahhabi extremist throughout the world.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/saudi/analyses/wahhabism.html

Saudi Arabia is no example to for us.

Nemont
 
>LAST EDITED ON Sep-09-14
>AT 03:39?PM (MST)
>
>>And doing nothing thru the nineties
>>led to 9-11! We don't
>>do something now (versus doing
>>nothing like u recommend) we
>>will have another attack on
>>us soil. U guys bang
>>on the saudis u know
>>what they're doin as we
>>speak? Buildin a 5 stage
>>fence on their border to
>>keep isis out! We should
>>b so smart!
>
>
>Tell me when you were in
>the Middle East, how many
>miles of Border does Saudi
>Arabia have to defend with
>how big of an Army?
>
>
>Perhaps they should have quit funneling
>money to the Madrasas that
>pump out new Islamic fanatics
>on a daily basis.
>There would be no ISIS
>without their Sunni brothers in
>Saudi Arabia and the Saudi
>Royal Family exporting Wahhabi
>extremist throughout the world.
>
> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/saudi/analyses/wahhabism.html
>
>Saudi Arabia is no example to
>for us.
>
>Nemont
91.....it's been the same cat box for thousands of years. Doubt it's changed since I was there.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-09-14 AT 04:47PM (MST)[p]I was there at the exact same time and it was a $hit hole then, probably has not changed but that wasn't the question. How many miles of border do the Saudi's have to defend and how many troops do they have to defend it?

Tell me a time when a fence worked to keep terrorist out? The Great China wall didn't work, the Berlin Wall didn't keep all the East Berliners in, the Wall in Israel doesn't keep Hamas from building up their rocket forces.

Explain why the Saudi's don't have blood on their hands for funding the Radical Madrasas throughout the world, including in the U.S.? They are Sunnis, so is ISIS, they hold to strict Wahhabi dictates of Islams, so does ISIS, they move money around the middle east using the Hawala system that cannot be traced and that money often ends up in the hands of groups like ISIS.

And they are supposedly an ally, which is why both of us ended up there in 90-91. They don't act in our best interest in the region.

Nemont
 
I've yet to imply any of em are our allies. I'll type it again I guess. My policy in dealing with these yahoos is to treat them like meatheads boss makes him treat his bosses alfalfa. When it gets high enough u cut it down. We have the intelligence capabilities and carrier groups in the region. They launch and recover aircraft everyday. Launching em heavy and recoverin em light doesn't cost that much more! And had u and I been allowed to finish and slick willy did his job the last 25yrs would have been much different. My fence comment was made to suggest we should have done the same thing down south back in the 80's when the dems promised to in exchange for amnesty. Another of the many times they didnt keep up their end of the bargain. And when u got time respond to my post #26 in some wingnut get it.
 
Did I not say 99% of what we have done has been wrong? that goes for Obama too.

What is right? anyone we arm today we will be shooting at by Friday. it's hopeless actually but politically we must have a " plan " . Obama has taken a slow to act stance and both sides are pitching a fit because of it. he has to do something even if it's wrong. and it will be.

If you remember Bush has to act in Afghanistan, Iraq was an elective move. if Obama attacks Jordan then you have a point.

Why is it up to us to fix it? why do we beg for help while they pee on our leg? we are a nation of cowards we'll do anything and hire kids to go die for our safety even when our saftey has not actually been compromised.

I say do nothing until the world begs us to, then say okay but here is our demands. everyone stop being such a #####, it will take a lot more than we've seen to draw me into this fear clustershag. the world is a violent place, even for americans. accept it.
















Stay thirsty my friends
 
>LAST EDITED ON Sep-09-14
>AT 03:39?PM (MST)
>
>>And doing nothing thru the nineties
>>led to 9-11! We don't
>>do something now (versus doing
>>nothing like u recommend) we
>>will have another attack on
>>us soil. U guys bang
>>on the saudis u know
>>what they're doin as we
>>speak? Buildin a 5 stage
>>fence on their border to
>>keep isis out! We should
>>b so smart!
>
>
>Tell me when you were in
>the Middle East, how many
>miles of Border does Saudi
>Arabia have to defend with
>how big of an Army?
>
>
>Perhaps they should have quit funneling
>money to the Madrasas that
>pump out new Islamic fanatics
>on a daily basis.
>There would be no ISIS
>without their Sunni brothers in
>Saudi Arabia and the Saudi
>Royal Family exporting Wahhabi
>extremist throughout the world.
>
> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/saudi/analyses/wahhabism.html
>
>Saudi Arabia is no example to
>for us.
>
>Nemont
I agree Nemont,you just wonder why the Saudis never have problems ,but everyone around them do.
 
We arm no one! When 1 faction gets large and starts Sabre rattling we strategically bomb them to a quieter, more manageable size. It's our responsibility because eventually they wind up here! It's not that hard, it's not that expensive. The infrastructures already in place. We'll never be free of them, but we must properly manage them!
 
What if we overstep our self proclaimed authority and China and Russia decide to make us more manageable?

They wouldn't even have to drop a bomb, just cut off our funding.

This is a complicated world and we don't run it we're just part of it. being world cop is expensive and we need to borrow to support our habit.







Stay thirsty my friends
 
That has nothing to do with it. nobody gave us a license to kill civilians in other countries at will. at some point we'll get spanked for it.

This isn't a war it's more like law enforcement. it will require a world effort to have any success.










Stay thirsty my friends
 
>
>That has nothing to do with
>it. nobody gave us
>a license to kill civilians
>in other countries at will.
> at some point we'll
>get spanked for it.
>
>This isn't a war it's more
>like law enforcement. it
>will require a world effort
>to have any success.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Stay thirsty my friends

And in that post is why it will never be won! They believe it's a war! We dont!
 
Aren't we supposed to hold a higher standard ? we can drop a bomb and kill 1000 women kids to make our statement?

This is not a war that can be fought by conventional methods. if you can't understand that it's a waste of time talking to you.
















Stay thirsty my friends
 
I saw the loads of dead women and children in Iraq. unless you think that was intentional. with people like you in charge maybe it was.

What Obama is doing as we speak is about as far as we can go before that starts happening again.















Stay thirsty my friends
 
Here we go again chasing more rainbows. We'll kill a few and create 10X more than we eliminate. Oh well, it's our destiny now.

Eel

Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded.
 
We have been cutting them down for 13 years in Afghanistan and Iraq and there are more of them now than when we started. Instead of cutting them back seems like all we have been doing is scattering more seeds so that the crop grows up in places it never used to be.

Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is the definition of what?

Nemont
 
You don't have to sell me, that's what I've been saying since 2003.

We had no choice but to go after bin Laden , beyond that everything we've done has made it worse. arabs live in a culture of revenge, we give them plenty to avenge and a reason to live.




Not understanding their culture has been our undoing, I see no way to turn back now.














Stay thirsty my friends
 
I honestly think this isis thing is just part of a long term goal of bleeding the lion (USA) to death. Break our will and our bank at the same time.

Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded.
 
>
>
>
>I saw the loads of dead
>women and children in Iraq.
> unless you think that
>was intentional. with people
>like you in charge maybe
>it was.
>
>What Obama is doing as we
>speak is about as far
>as we can go before
>that starts happening again.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Stay thirsty my friends


When was that?
 
>We have been cutting them down
>for 13 years in Afghanistan
>and Iraq and there are
>more of them now than
>when we started. Instead
>of cutting them back seems
>like all we have been
>doing is scattering more seeds
>so that the crop grows
>up in places it never
>used to be.
>
>Doing the same thing over and
>over and expecting different results
>is the definition of what?
>
>
>Nemont


Thanx for your comment now what's yer solution?
 
Why do I have to come with the solution? How about this, let them kill each other. Stop flooding the middle east with money and military equipment. Do not arm the rebels in Syria like McCain wanted and now Obama is going to.

Sit down with Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Turkey and explain their tit in the the ringer and it is time for them to do some heavy lifting. Give the middle finger to the Shiite dominated government in Iraq unless they start including the Sunni minority in their government.

Take away the Sunni militia support of ISIS and it ends up dying in Iraq. Several ways to do that, the best is on the political side and not at the barrel of a gun.

Nemont
 
I agree with you but politically that would be considered losing.

If we tried that and so much as one smoke bomb went off in the US with a dark haired person nearby there would be a political blood bath. our leaders know they have to make us feel like we're in control and have it handled even when we don't.


To me this is a little like fighting forest fires. we had a no fire burning policy for 100 years and now we find we would have been much better off to let the fires clean up the trash. we created a montser by thinking we could control nature. we're now learning from our mistakes on forestry management but I fear we're too cowardly and simple to learn from our mistakes with raghead managment.















Stay thirsty my friends
 
I was asked about a solution, nothing was said about whether it had to pass the political test.

So sometimes politicians take a political blood bath in the polls, I am fine with that. Better than the rest of taking a real blood bath in an attack here.

Nemont
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-10-14 AT 03:33PM (MST)[p]


Once again I agree, but politics are a factor we can't ignore.

Our leaders will say and do whatever it takes to get elected and that means more of the same. any leader who says what we agree he should say will be eaten by the pack of wolves around them .

Logic is often mistaken for weakness .


















Stay thirsty my friends
 
>I was asked about a solution,
>nothing was said about whether
>it had to pass the
>political test.
>
>So sometimes politicians take a political
> blood bath in the
>polls, I am fine with
>that. Better than the
>rest of taking a real
>blood bath in an attack
>here.
>
>Nemont


That's the game nemont. U offer a solution so meathead can show us how smart he is by telling u how dumb u are!
 
You're too dumb to understand I agree with Nemont, I was commenting on why it won't happen. too many slow minded cowards like you.

Civilian death toll is officially between 150-200 thousand depending on estimates. pictures are everywhere if you like that sort of thing do a search . it's not something I'm going to post for you to get off on.















Stay thirsty my friends
 
Obama's Logic is misleading at best when the supposed well educated leader of the free world stands there and tells his people that ISIS and ISIL aren't Islamic groups. When they choose to call themselves and their movement after Islam in their own title and are killing those that oppose their beliefs. Many of the things they're doing are actually part of Mohammad's teachings.

Islamic State in Syria and Iraq = ISIS

Islamic State of Iraq in the Levant= ISIL

Funny how terrorists aren't terrorists, acts of terrorism aren't labeled as such, religious persecution is overlooked when it involves Islam, atheism is encouraged in our military and religious affiliation is discouraged except when it suits our political agenda or condemns our founding principles. Yet radical Islam and it's followers aren't pointed out? Why?

Could it be we have too much Muslim influence in Washington and they don't want to oppose their own? But isn't there a difference between right and wrong no matter what religion any person belongs too. Why do we go to such great lengths to distort the actual facts. Would it not be better to teach Islam where some beliefs aren't tolerable to the rest of the world? How can you enact change by overlooking what's wrong and not addressing it. Hell lets face reality here they've been killing each other for century's so why try to be PC when trying to get them to change. Obama clearly doesn't know best the middle easts in Chaos since he took over!

Terrorists & atheists are rewarded with professorships and idolized by our young minds in centers of higher learning and our kids are being taught that capitalism is less accepted than working in a union.

Black folks that commit crimes are fighting back against society and oppression for all the injustices they've encountered. It's Ok to demonstrate and rob shop owners because that's the price they must pay for being in business. Preferential treatment is afforded those who can demonstrate that they were victims of the system when in reality many are victims of their own lack of effort. There's not one standard here there's a double standard being promoted at honest hard working folks expense.

We've tore our military down to it's lowest levels in decades and have become the laughing stock of the world and unable to garner enough coalition support to fight the injustices against society's weakest around the world, while terrorism flourishes.

Yet we pour billions upon billions daily, TRILLIONs in aggregate into social programs to tax those that work and reward those that don't with the toils of their labor to allow us to stay in power to tear down the formerly greatest nation on earth. We're taxing folks out of business, out of jobs, and are actively promoting an eroded standard of living as being the norm. Were saddling business with more regulations than at any time in our nations history that don't promote our economy or job growth they destroy it from within.

We have sat back and watched the democratic party tell us to our faces that they aren't actively trying to stop hunting and fishing or grab our guns in this country when they've sat back and sponsored hundreds of bills to the contrary is proof you can't dispute. Why hell they even have targeted your big gulps because they know what's best for us. This country was founded on freedom since they got in control it seems that's a commodity that's getting more rare than disposable income.

We're at war folks but it's simply time for some of you to actually wake up and realize just what's happening. The President stood up there and lied to you giving a speech like he's done many times in the past with health care, immigration, taxes, jobs, green jobs, social injustice, the IRS, fast and furious, Benghazi, Syria, who's causing the issues in congress and why the system is broke with a complicit press.

We're at war alright but all one has to do is look at Washington and it's quite easy to see under whose watch these injustices have happened to OUR people and those around the world. Terrorism isn't new but Obama's lack of leadership has allowed it to flourish and maybe just maybe his plan for change wasn't necessarily in the best interests of his people and it's time to wake up and accept the reality of his failures and enact a few changes of our own. It's time to show them we're smart enough to understand that their manipulative game has come to an end! Show them with your votes and take back what is rightfully ours!
 
Opinions are not facts until proven so. bosgeek has lots of stupid and misgiuded opinions.

Rather than puff and preach wht don't you lay out excatly how to win this " war " you think we need ?

Go for it captian america.
















Stay thirsty my friends
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-11-14 AT 06:18PM (MST)[p]careful numnutz or we'll post up video of George Bush accurately predicting the mess Obama's got us in in the middle east when he was in the White House ( could he see the future). Imagine how smart he looks compared to your anointed failure... guess old George was smart enough to listen to those who knew as opposed to foolishly believing he knew more without the experience like Obama. Guess reading the briefings does have some merit! imagine that

We've proven you wrong so many times it's frustrated the hell out of you. Let's call a drunken fool a drunken fool and try to leave the wisdom out of it because the reality clearly shows you simply don't measure up in that capacity with most on here. You mistakenly believe you win when you twist yourself up in knots and change positions to try to find one hair of truth to your misguided rhetoric.

Now go pick up your bottle and drown your bigoted soul. You've never made a point on here in your life that actually relied on facts as the basis for your post. By the way how's old barry looking on your coveted polls? Post up how well he's doing and how much the American people think he's the guy to get us out of the mess he had a big hand in creating...... You just aren't capable of debating any mind that can actually string facts together as opposed to your reckless banter. What's wrong can't you use the internet fast enough to keep up? LOL

Here we'll use your tactics on you disprove everything I wrote until then STFU you moron.
 
I really don't give a FF what you think so forgive my lack of interest. DimWit seems to have the same shortcomings you do bosgeek, is DW your alter ego concocted to give you the support you can never find? or are you actually two losers as inept as the other? a match made in hevean if you will, well isn't that's special. yeah who cares.

Anyone like to carry the ball for the love birds and lay out exacty what Obama should do? congress seems to be incapable to find that answer.














Stay thirsty my friends
 
I didn't say anything, I wrote something. you hear with your eyes? that figures, you think with your butt.

Stop " talking " so someone else can answer the question you clearly can't.













Stay thirsty my friends
 
I'm tired of answerin yer questions meathead u propose no solutions yourself only criticize others solutions. Yer bore in the hell outta me!
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-12-14 AT 10:18AM (MST)[p]



Boskee,

Here is the problem with GWB's prediction, he is the one that ordered the invasion that broke Iraq and unleashed the chaos of sectarian violence. He knocked off the Sunni leader of Iraq and gave the country to the Shiite majority and then agreed prior to leaving office that the U.S. would leave Iraq.



You can read the it here:

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/122074.pdf

Recognizing the performance and increasing capacity of the Iraqi Security Forces, the assumption of full security responsibility by those Forces, and based upon the strong relationship between the Parties, an agreement on the
following has been reached:

1. All the United States Forces shall withdraw from all Iraqi territory no later than December 31, 2011.

2. All United States combat forces shall withdraw from Iraqi cities,villages, and localities no later than the time at which Iraqi Security Forces assume full responsibility for security in an Iraqi province, provided that such withdrawal is completed no later than June 30, 2009.

3. United States combat forces withdrawn pursuant to paragraph 2 above shall be stationed in the agreed facilities and areas outside cities, villages, and localities to be designated by the JMOCC before the date established in
paragraph 2 above.

4. The United States recognizes the sovereign right of the Government of Iraq to request the departure of the United States Forces from Iraq at any time The Government of Iraq recognizes the sovereign right of the United States to withdraw the United States Forces from Iraq at any time.

5. The Parties agree to establish mechanisms and arrangements to reduce the number of the United States Forces during the periods of time that have been determined, and they shall agree on the locations where the United
States Forces will be present

So are you saying the U.S. should not abide by it's agreements or that in 2007 GWB knew we shouldn't withdraw and then in 2008 agreed to withdraw? The agreement he signed took effect Jan. 1, 2009. So if he knew we should not withdraw from Iraq back in 2007, why did he agree to leave? The agreement we signed said Iraq had to agree to let us stay, it is right there in black and white and Iraqi's told us to pound sand because they would not grant U.S. Troops immunity like every other SOFA agreement we have. So should any president have signed a SOFA agreement whereby U.S. troops are subject to the host country's criminal code when the troops are following orders? No president could sign such a thing.

You all are forgetting the Iraqi government had a chance to say, "Stay and help us" instead they invoked the agreement they had with President Bush for us to leave.

It all makes sense unless you realize it is a complex problem, made more difficult by the Iran influence Shiite Majority in Iraq and Sunni dominated ISIS and the fact that we removed the Sunni leader of Iraq and let the Shiites take over. We lit the fuze

The Iraqi's had a vote in whether we stayed or not and they voted no.

Nemont
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-12-14 AT 08:12PM (MST)[p]I didn't say or imply anything of the kind. But lets face reality here Iraq made it's choice in part because Obama applied pressure or incentive to do it his way and get as many troops out as he could to satisfy his election promise. He had been advised more troops were the best option so he had alternatives. Come on you're wise enough to know that they could have changed any deal they cut simply by withdrawing future aid as a negotiating point feeling things were unstable (he needed the money the country was in ruins and rebuilding is part of most military planning). It's not like we've never done such a thing to protect out interests lest not we forget we still have troops stationed all over the world in country's we fought in and did exactly the same thing.

So while we withdrew and honored their wishes and the agreement, it's no secret they accurately predicted what would happen. It also proved the unpopular surge worked as the Military predicted it would. Malicki didn't play fair with his own people and wound up suffering internal discord to the point of rebellion like Obama's preferred choice in Egypt who tried to jam the brotherhood down his peoples throats and was overthrown by his military. In fairness to Obama things could have worked out just fine in both cases but it didn't and here we are. Legacy's are made by the choices we make and Obama isn't going to be looked upon kindly in history for many of the choices he made that actually destabilized things far more than eliminating Hussein. Lest not we forget other forces have been working that have influenced factors because they perceived weakness and seized opportunity to erode our image around the world.

I agree politics in the middle east is risky on all fronts and we both know history has proven the stronger arsenal always wins in that part of the world.

For all we know Obama or his emissary could have reached a deal with him to refuse to extend things by sweetening the pot in some manner so lets not be na?ve. They could have mutually agreed to let him refuse to allow us to leave more troops to show him standing up to us as a show of strength ( highly respected in Arab World), while allowing Obama to have his timely exit that he coveted and promised his people. It's politics Nemont, more legislation gets passed by the deals cut behind the scenes then by the exact words on the paper.
 
Yes there are always politics. What I asked was this: If GWB knew what would happen in Iraq when we pulled out way back in 2007, why didn't he see to it that our agreements were in place to stay? Why would he have left it up to the next guy, who was running on getting out of Iraq and won on that issue? Why do you praise GWB seeing the problems ahead and not making sure the next guy had a position of power to deal from?

You have to have the same standard you hold our leaders to. Bush wanted out of Iraq to polish his tarnished legacy.

Do you remember what Colin Powell and Storming Norman said after the Desert Desert Storm about why we didn't drive on to Baghdad in 1991? That looks like brilliant advice in hindsight. How far back you want to go?

Nemont
 
I don't know why but it's not the first time it's happened is it? We spent hundreds of billions toppling a dictator and setting up a guy to win that passed our muster. Then we spent billions training and equipping his army so he could remain in power to stack the deck in his favor all with congressional approval. Then we go so far as to make sure he's aligns his cabinet to represent all factions of his people and to relieve tensions and let them all have a voice in their government. Bush couldn't control what they did after he left and he certainly wasn't getting daily briefings that he had the power to act on. The status of forces agreement had language in it where things could be changed in the future if necessary on Obama's watch.

No matter how you want to state things we held the cards to control anything that happened before during and after that point. Our guy was in power, we helped put him there so why don't you explain why you think he had all the power. The military advised Obama that in their opinion he needed to leave more forces there.....gee where does Bush's responsibility end? He's not even in power any more? Think it's not prudent of any president to leave an agreement that gives his successor a choice? You think the dems in congress ( by the way who was in control then) weren't pushing for that? They all were campaigning on needing to end the war remember and affixing blame to only one party, and old George was concerned with saving his legacy.

Bush and the military knew what would happen if things weren't managed right but all the tools were in place to do the job. This wasn't our first rodeo contrary to the narrative. The dems played that hand well didn't they? So well in fact that Obama and Biden proclaimed that Iraq would be one of Obama's biggest success story's. All I stated was Bush was on record saying exactly what his advisors told him could happen......and it did.

So how does a guy control things after he leaves office Nemont? So why given the massive amount of intell and daily briefings years after the fact didn't Obama take hold of the reins of his greatest success story when he clearly knew things had taken a turn for the worse? POLITICS??? Things never are as simple as we want to make them are they..... The comment became relevant because this President has a long time history of saying he wasn't told or informed of things......and he's played that hand too many times hasn't he in fact even the Pentagon is calling him out now to save face. Well it's on the record that he was told by many different folks and sometimes you have to point out the obvious around here when the you can't prove it hand gets played to save our meaningless drivel.

We have status of forces agreements in places all over the globe Nemont and many different presidents have renegotiated them after the incumbent left office....... is Obama supposed to be held to a different standard in that regard? He had a choice no matter how they want to spin it and they made one and it clearly didn't work out the way they thought it would......now we're going to expend more $$$$ and most likely more American lives retaking some of the same ground again. You're right it's a damn mess.
 
Bosgeek why do you think the will of the american people and the actions taken by our government have no connection?

You call it politics, yes it is. but as CIC the president is an elected official who is supposed to answer to the majority of the US voters.

3/4 of the american public opposes sending troops back to Iraq today, and more than that wanted them out when they were removed. as CIC Obama would have been at odds with the nation had he done differently.

You could argue the people don't know whats best for them and should therefore be ignored, but to do that you need to prove what was done wasn't best for them. ISIS would exist even if we had not pulled the troops out and will not vanish if we return them . which we don't want to.

How do you reconsile the will of the people and their governments decisions with what may or not be the right decision in hindsight?

After you answer that , prove the decisions made by Obama have made ISIS stronger than those made by Bush. or better yet that eiher president had much to do with it. watch the Kissinger video.













Stay thirsty my friends
 
Obama's speech was an exercise in guile and subterfuge. The real intent of the Administration is to continue the war against Damascus. ISIS is nothing more than a convenient excuse.

The only solution is to stop the recruitment, arming and funding of all these terror groups. But that would defeat the goal of of the U.S., EU, and GCC.

Eldorado
 
Not to mention Bubba wouldn't be able to sleep at night knowing a camel cavalry was headed towards his trailer park.






Stay thirsty my friends
 
It's more like 3/4 of americans, including me . but unlike you I don't support an all out war, just pretty much what they're doing.


It is easy to blow this clear out of perspective by panic and cowardess though. facts are far more americans will be murdered by other americans this year alone than all americans killed in 9/11, both wars in the middle east and all terrorist activites combined since 9/11. and that's right here at home you don't have to leave your hometown, one murder every 32 minutes. cut a couple heads off in the middle east and you crap yourself.

So while it's good to make an effort to hold groups like ISIS at bay with reasonable measures this pants wetting panic is unwarranted and illogical. the terrorist are getting just what they want from you.










Stay thirsty my friends
 
U really have no short term left at all do you? Reading retention skills a little short like you? Again when u close the hole under yer nose the 2 on the side of yer head open up!
 
If you can't stay on subject why don't go back to playing with the dinger on the microwave oven.

You don't say anything worth retaining. even Manny has a point once in a while, you're just screen filler.









Stay thirsty my friends
 
440 nowhere did I imply that in fact I stated that's why they made some of the moves they did. 440 yes they answer to the voters but let's not believe the majority of the American people understand the strategic importance of most of our military actions or how we actually play the pieces on the chess board because the reality is they don't know or understand it at all.

You make a good point in that the American people cared little until they actually figured out how bad the bad guys really were when they started lopping of journalists heads. There were hundreds more victims being beheaded, shot, and crucified daily.

Suddenly fear ran thru us when in reality it had been going on for some time. Why didn't the press report the truth and devote more time to it? Other country's knew far more than we did yet great care was taken to not upset the narrative. Why? Politics? Exactly and we know who has the power to make that happen don't we?

Think the American people would have been more supportive had they known the extent of what was really going on? Why is it 2 victims managed to change their minds? Think your President may have been more forthcoming if elections weren't on the docket? Why did he distort the narrative and facts on Benghazi? Did the actions in both cases go against the narrative of the administration? We both know the answer is yes don't we.

How can you reconcile the will or build support of an uninformed people? How about we try to actually tell them what the hell is really going on. Seems to have worked for previous presidents and Obama used the same tactic when he finally decided he had to do something didn't he?

How do you reconcile how a governments decision effect things ....How about you just weigh the level and amount of chaos currently in the middle east. That right there is directly linked to how we have handled foreign policy over there since he got elected. I know Bush started it (TRUE) well then explain why they didn't take advantage of him when he was at war and involved in conflicts? Gee think a military presence dissuaded them? Think they feared what may happen to them? What kept Putin in check before?

You can disagree, but history isn't going to be kind to Obama even though the press has been very tight lipped. History will show where he meddled and how he got burned and how his policy failed & actually accelerated the process because they sensed weakness and took advantage. All the spin in the world isn't going to show how his policy wasn't instrumental in the conditions deteriorating to where we are today. Bush contributed but he's been gone over 1/2 a decade and how does he control the plane from a passengers seat? Doing nothing isn't a deterrent to any crime or terrorist activity, they think you're afraid or weak.

Obama's been in there for a term and a half and anybody with half and education knows killing Lincoln didn't start the civil war did it? How many times has this President stood up there and blamed everything on Bush when he had control the day after Bush left office. How many programs have been rocky and have issues under his leadership? How many times did he misrepresent the facts on things only to have to change his narrative when proved his comments and denial were wrong?

I highly respect Kissenger but we have to accept that some of our actions led to the escalation of issues in the middle east. We've alienated a lot of governments over there and the vast wealth in the region can be used to weaken our interests as well as strengthen them.

As to what action or inaction by Obama led to strengthen ISIS? I'll just use one little example for you that should speak volumes about why we are in the mess we're in.....his lack of action and doing nothing indirectly led to our tax dollars being used to ARM them which by most accounts in the Pentagon only resulted in making them a more viable threat. He discounted his intell and it bit him in the end.....the JV toppled the varsity.
 
Where should I start? are you that dumb or do you think personal attacks are on subject ? good grief you people are hopeless.











Stay thirsty my friends
 
"You" can mean the people you support as leaders DimWit . fact is many republicans say Obama isn't going far enough, what does that mean if not all out war?

Do you like Obama's plan? if not what should he do?








Stay thirsty my friends
 
But that's not the way you meant it. I've told u several times it's like your bosses alfalfa.....ringing any bells? Kinda what yer heros doin but I'd hurry it up. Oh ya and I wouldn't send 3,000 troops to aid in the Ebola fight! Is that an effort to infect this country? Sure seems that way....As if we should feel the pain of other countries!
 
I bet you wish you'd known what crack does to a brain before you got hooked.

Nasty sfuff.













Stay thirsty my friends
 
I basically tell u I'd do what yer heros doin with isis and u tell me I'm on crack? Doesn't say much for yer hero smart guy!
 
You ramble but you really don't say anything Tyrone.

In clear english what is Obama doing about ISIS ? and if you can manage that, in clear english what should he do? go.
















Stay thirsty my friends
 
Yer like a 4 yr old....I know but why? I know but why? I know but why? I know but why? I'm tired a tellin yer dumba$$!
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-17-14 AT 11:25AM (MST)[p]http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/virtue-subtlety-us-strategy-against-islamic-state#axzz3DWP4puwn

in Summation:
Such an American strategy is not an avoidance of responsibility. It is the use of U.S. power to force a regional solution. Sometimes the best use of American power is to go to war. Far more often, the best use of U.S. power is to withhold it. The United States cannot evade responsibility in the region. But it is enormously unimaginative to assume that carrying out that responsibility is best achieved by direct intervention. Indirect intervention is frequently more efficient and more effective.




Take some time to read it and understand why the author is more correct than incorrect on the path forward.

Nemont
 
230510653580_756185514427116_5501287550543662609_n.jpg


358110710771_756051804440487_2548856690656114249_n.jpg
 
Yeah you are right about the idiot you were foolish enough to believe and vote for twice. Now sleep in the bed you help make.

RELH
 
Yeah, you could have had bombs away McCain and caribou Barbie.

WWIII, us against the world, the conservatard dream.















Stay thirsty my friends
 
I would have preferred Mitt over McCain and Obama. But even old McCain would have the odds in his favor of being better then the con man the fools of this country elected.

Heck Dude, as stupid and abrasive as you are, you could have done better then the idiot community organizer that is in office now. You want to argue that???????????????????

RELH
 
Hey 440?

Remember a few years ago when I said we should Blow Syria off the Face of the F'N Earth?

SPIN It!










[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
You say lots of things. I don't attempt to understand or remember any of it.

Killing everyone who doesn't look or think like you is always the easy solution. you know, ISIS might be your calling. when they say allah you say Zenue, or whatever that star guys name is . nobody will notice.











Stay thirsty my friends
 
The question now is how long will the bombing campaign last and will it go beyond territory controlled by ISIS? The U.S. would be hard pressed to justify a military campaign which on one hand degrades ISIS while giving air cover for another armed group. This situation could easily explode into a greater tragedy if the real intent of the Administration is to facilitate the overthrow of the Syrian government while claiming to fight terrorism.

Eldorado
 
....and when will the dead civilian and screaming children videos start running hourly on cnn and msnbc ?????.....


"As democracy is perfected, the office of the President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day, the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be occupied by a downright fool and complete narcissistic moron."
- H.L. Mencken, the Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920
 
Every goal we've had in the middle east has never been met. I don't think we even have goals anymore we just play whack a mole to make the sissys at home feel safer.

In this case just like the search for Bin laden we have to act . that doesn't mean we have to over do it. we'll put on a good show for a while then it will die down other than a select mission now and then.












Stay thirsty my friends
 
>The question now is how long
>will the bombing campaign last
>and will it go beyond
>territory controlled by ISIS? The
>U.S. would be hard pressed
>to justify a military campaign
>which on one hand degrades
>ISIS while giving air cover
>for another armed group. This
>situation could easily explode into
>a greater tragedy if the
>real intent of the Administration
>is to facilitate the overthrow
>of the Syrian government while
>claiming to fight terrorism.
>
>Eldorado

Wouldn't our bombing of ISIS actually help the Assad regime? I don't know that the others participating have much appetite to go beyond ISIS.

Nemont
 
Nothing has changed. ISIS is one of many terror groups created to carry out U.S. foreign policy in the region (regime change in the case of Syria). They are easily interchangeable and replaceable. The actors may change but the script remains the same.

Eldorado
 
I think the ' coalition ' pretty much means they won't object to us fighting for them but what's new.

What is impressive is a coalition of Sunni nations cooperating in missions against sunni extremists. this is important and insures ISIS won't have a safety zone to hide in.

As bad as this whole thing is it could be much worse. the real way to fight them will be to cut their funding, that may be harder than the bombing.










Stay thirsty my friends
 
ISIS is self funding by selling deeply discounted oil

20140911_isis.png



-ISIS sells oil to consumers in territory it controls, roughly the size of Maryland, inside Syria and Iraq. The terrorist group also sells oil to a network of smugglers that developed in the 1990s during Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein?s rule; that network smuggled oil out of Iraq into Turkey to avoid sanctions imposed by the United Nations.-

Why do you think Turkey is so reluctant to join the coalition against ISIS? Follow the money.

Nemont
 
Are u saying we couldn't stop the outflow of oil from isis controlled territories? Remember the escape routes we carpet bombed with rockeye back in 91 nemont? We could end that chit in 5 minutes if we wanted!
 
Yeah and you do not have to blow up the oil wells, just knock out the pumping stations and oil lines leading to the pumping stations. They will be forced to leave the oil in the ground or face more bombing if repairs are attempted.

RELH
 
True, but what would that do to the price of oil?

Nobody would like that. it's like fighting with one hand tied behind your back.















Stay thirsty my friends
 
Dude that oil is being sold to certain countries at cut rate prices. We are not getting it here. Turkey benefits from it big time as most from Iraq goes though there. Should not raise the prices that much here. Another reason this country needs to get less dependent on foreign oil.

RELH
 
Oil is a world commodity, anytime supply is cut somewhere it has to come from somewhere else. with our increased domestic supply it may not effect us as fast or as much as a few years ago but it would effect us.

We're not the point, it's the nations we're trying to get support from that are the issue. they're not wanting to rock the boat just because we think it's up to us to be world cop.














Stay thirsty my friends
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-24-14 AT 09:23AM (MST)[p]
DW,

Of course we could stop the flow of oil but do you want to bet whether we hit oil facilities in Iraq or not to cut off the flow of oil to Turkey? Regardless of who controls them we are not going to destroy the oil infrastructure through which the Kurds as well as the Sunnis in Iraq derive their wealth.

I will put up an all expenses cast and blast trip for Pheasants and Walleyes in North East Montana in the bet. IF I am wrong I will host you for four days of walleye fishing and pheasant hunting, provide the housing, boat, tackle and fillet your catch and clean your birds (you buy the licenses and provide your own shotgun and ammo). If I am right and the oil keeps flowing, tell me what the bet is on your side.

My bet is the the smuggled oil business remains open and we will not hit major oil facilities in Iraq.

Nemont
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-24-14 AT 12:36PM (MST)[p]I wouldn't bet a wooden nickel this guy does what's necessary or correct. I doubt he wipes his own arss! Today we see he can't even properly salute the Marines as he gets off marine one as he sends more of our brothers in harms way! He has no respect for them, for u, for me, or this country! On a lighter note, I'm in! When we goin? Nothin better than walleye and pheasant! Acquiring them, or eating them!
 
If we really wanted to cripple ISIS, we would hit the pumping stations. The problem is our politicians and Obama does not want to rock the boat and Nemont is right about our "no backbone" politicians will not go the extra mile it is needed to dry up ISIS' funds.

RELH
 
In drying part of the ISIS funding, oil, we would lose what cooperation we're getting in the region. without oil money they could still get enough money from their sheiks to operate as a terrorist organization.

This is much more complicated than you make it out to be. we can't do it alone we've proven that over and over.













Stay thirsty my friends
 
Better get your gear together DW....have fun. Better bring your own humorist.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/24/world/meast/us-airstrikes/index.html


"As democracy is perfected, the office of the President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day, the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be occupied by a downright fool and complete narcissistic moron."
- H.L. Mencken, the Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-24-14 AT 04:17PM (MST)[p]Zigger,

Hold you fire, nobody took my bet.

Wonder why the refinery isn't on fire yet? seems odd.

Nemont
 
Yeah! we were wrong and Nemont is lucky no one took his bet. They hit oil refineries in Syria in this second go around to deprive ISIS of oil money.
I bet ISIS is really pissed to find out one of the Arab pilots flying a F-16 hitting them is a woman and another is a Saudi prince.

RELH
 

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