Thunderclapper
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Any opinions?
Mtn Goat Experts
- Thread starter Thunderclapper
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PleaseDear
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No expert here but---
Nannie....
Distance between bases and not much shoulder bulk.
Granted being shed in the front and still shedding mid-body back may make the shoulder area seem skinny...
Robb
Nannie....
Distance between bases and not much shoulder bulk.
Granted being shed in the front and still shedding mid-body back may make the shoulder area seem skinny...
Robb
G
Garion33
Guest
Ok, I'll play and like the others have stated, I am far from an expert. I see this as a younger Billy, and here's why:
- Picture 2 & 5 shows the more gradual curve of the horn
- Look at the face. The face is shorter and blockier than the longer, more angular face of a Nanny
- There appears to be a slight shoulder hump in all but one of the pictures
- The bases of the horns are fairly thick and not a lot of space overall between the horns. Picture 1, 4, & 5 shows this the best. There aren't the thinner, spindly horns that slightly taper to the top that one sees on a Nanny. There is a very pronounced taper within the last few inches of the horn
- The bases are wider than the eye. Picture 2 shows this the best. A Billy's bases will be wider than its eye
- The facing on picture 3 shows the makings of a nice "V", not the very pronounced, really wide "V" near the top of the horns of a Nanny
If I had to guess, I would say he is around 7 to possibly 8 inches or so and most likely could be considered a harvestable trophy later in the hunt.
I am still learning at judging Goats, so I will find this interesting as I have deviated from what the others have said.
BTW, nice pictures. Where were they taken, Utah?
Thanks,
Garion33
- Picture 2 & 5 shows the more gradual curve of the horn
- Look at the face. The face is shorter and blockier than the longer, more angular face of a Nanny
- There appears to be a slight shoulder hump in all but one of the pictures
- The bases of the horns are fairly thick and not a lot of space overall between the horns. Picture 1, 4, & 5 shows this the best. There aren't the thinner, spindly horns that slightly taper to the top that one sees on a Nanny. There is a very pronounced taper within the last few inches of the horn
- The bases are wider than the eye. Picture 2 shows this the best. A Billy's bases will be wider than its eye
- The facing on picture 3 shows the makings of a nice "V", not the very pronounced, really wide "V" near the top of the horns of a Nanny
If I had to guess, I would say he is around 7 to possibly 8 inches or so and most likely could be considered a harvestable trophy later in the hunt.
I am still learning at judging Goats, so I will find this interesting as I have deviated from what the others have said.
BTW, nice pictures. Where were they taken, Utah?
Thanks,
Garion33
Thunderclapper
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I could be influenced by each argument! I've taken some online quizes put out by Colorado and Alaska and they both say you have to see a Billy's goods to be sure he's really a billy. I guess I need Robbs video.
These pics were taken in Idaho near Palisades lakes.
These pics were taken in Idaho near Palisades lakes.
Zeke
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You could also take the Utah quiz. It's hard to have too much schooling when it comes to "sexing" mountain goats.
It's interesting about "seeing the goods".
I've been on several goat hunts and even as certain as we are, we always lift the leg as soon as we recover the goat....just to make sure! So far, so good!
Once a guy has seen a bunch of goats it's not terribly difficult to gender check in the field.... but mistakes can happen.
Good luck in Idaho. I hunted up there in 1996.
Zeke
It's interesting about "seeing the goods".
I've been on several goat hunts and even as certain as we are, we always lift the leg as soon as we recover the goat....just to make sure! So far, so good!
Once a guy has seen a bunch of goats it's not terribly difficult to gender check in the field.... but mistakes can happen.
Good luck in Idaho. I hunted up there in 1996.
Zeke
Horniac
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Thank goodness for either-sex tags - at least you won't lose your hunting privileges if you make an honest mistake!
I can imagine a guy would be pretty puckered up with a billy only tag as he walked up on the goat he just shot hoping to god he didn't screw up and shoot a nanny by mistake...
Mountain goats are tough to sex for sure!
Horniac
I can imagine a guy would be pretty puckered up with a billy only tag as he walked up on the goat he just shot hoping to god he didn't screw up and shoot a nanny by mistake...
Mountain goats are tough to sex for sure!
Horniac
PleaseDear
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Good points Dave.
You being from Alaska prolly has you seeing a lot more Mtn. Goats on a daily basis than we have down here in the lower 48.
I was close to saying young Billy but with that long face and more mature looking-----
I decided a 7--8 year old Nannie instead of a 4-5 year old Billy.
Nothing set in stone that is for sure.
Robb
PS--I see you are ex AF, I am ex Navy....
You being from Alaska prolly has you seeing a lot more Mtn. Goats on a daily basis than we have down here in the lower 48.
I was close to saying young Billy but with that long face and more mature looking-----
I decided a 7--8 year old Nannie instead of a 4-5 year old Billy.
Nothing set in stone that is for sure.
Robb
PS--I see you are ex AF, I am ex Navy....
G
Garion33
Guest
Robb, I cannot say for sure what it is. I was hoping an expert might see this and comment as well. For reference, I looked at the nanny video Big6 posted and compared the horns, along with some other F&G sites. I see those as being smaller mass wise than the goat in this thread. The shape of the horns is different with the curve much closer to the tip than in these pictures. The first picture in this thread seems to show the sharp curve near the top of the horn, but when you look at the rest of the pictures, you see the curve start much earlier. I think that is what finally pushed me to say young Billy. But, I am no expert and even though I see goats frequently up here, I am still learning. I drew a goat tag this year, so I am especially interested in being able to tell the difference. I am able to take either or, but if I take a Nanny, I cannot put in for the draw goat hunts in this unit or its sub units for 5 years. Additionally, it is just plain bad for the herd to take a Nanny out of the breeding pool up here.
Yeah, I spent almost 29 years in the Air Force and "retired" (or as the new buzz phrase says "Transitioned out of the Air Force") a couple of years ago.
What did you do while you were in?
V/R
Garion33
Yeah, I spent almost 29 years in the Air Force and "retired" (or as the new buzz phrase says "Transitioned out of the Air Force") a couple of years ago.
What did you do while you were in?
V/R
Garion33
Thunderclapper
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Would it make a difference if I added that this goat was alone when I took the photos?
sticksender
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A hunter would have to assume that Goat is a Nanny, until long and careful study with good optics proved otherwise. I'd want to see a hanging change-purse before I'd shoot.
IMO the photos are too fuzzy and distant to judge sex strictly from the appearance of the horns alone. But what you can say with fair certainty is that it's a mature Goat. The one side view of the face (third picture) shows a crowned hump forming along the middle of the snout, a sure sign of a mature (older than 4) Goat.
IMO the photos are too fuzzy and distant to judge sex strictly from the appearance of the horns alone. But what you can say with fair certainty is that it's a mature Goat. The one side view of the face (third picture) shows a crowned hump forming along the middle of the snout, a sure sign of a mature (older than 4) Goat.
sticksender
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Here's a pretty good pic of a dish-faced immature nanny, going on 3 years old.
sticksender
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LAST EDITED ON Jun-26-13 AT 09:26AM (MST)[p]A slightly older Nanny, this one going on 4 years old. She had two kids with here when I took this pic. Note her face (snout) is getting longer and starting to flatten out.
sticksender
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LAST EDITED ON Jun-26-13 AT 09:26AM (MST)[p]And finally a horse-faced mature nanny, 5 years or older. Note the horns aren't a whole lot longer than a 2-3 year old nanny, but the crowned snout and long face are the give-away.
Zeke
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LAST EDITED ON Jun-26-13 AT 10:52AM (MST)[p]Great photos!
A couple usually accepted ways to tell sex is 1- the amount of scalp between the horns 2- the relationship of the horn base to the eye opening. The horn shape alone can be confusing at times. While important, horn shape is one of the least reliable criteria.
Older billies will have very little scalp between the horns and the bases will be noticably larger than the eye opening.
Lots of other factors go into determining sex. Read up on goat behavior, posture, color etc. The two sure-fire ways to tell sex is to see male body parts or watch how they urinate!
Zeke
A couple usually accepted ways to tell sex is 1- the amount of scalp between the horns 2- the relationship of the horn base to the eye opening. The horn shape alone can be confusing at times. While important, horn shape is one of the least reliable criteria.
Older billies will have very little scalp between the horns and the bases will be noticably larger than the eye opening.
Lots of other factors go into determining sex. Read up on goat behavior, posture, color etc. The two sure-fire ways to tell sex is to see male body parts or watch how they urinate!
Zeke
bogey
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Its kind of funny in the above post it says you would have to assume nanny tell you can tell for sure......I have to do the opposite since I have a nanny tag. I assume they are all billies tell I know for sure they are nannies!! Got a few wrong on the UT test as I could not say for sure so I picked billy, as I can't shoot unless I am sure nanny.
sticksender
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bogey I wouldn't worry about missing a couple calls on those on-line tests. The problem is they only use still pictures, some of which intentionally show ambiguous-looking animals in poses which are designed to prove to the viewer the potential difficulty of sexing Goats.
When you're actually in the field looking at real live Goats, you have the full advantage of using patience to wait for animal behaviors and viewing angles that reveal everything you need to know.
Like....
Nanny with Kid
Or....
Billy showing equipment.
When you're actually in the field looking at real live Goats, you have the full advantage of using patience to wait for animal behaviors and viewing angles that reveal everything you need to know.
Like....
Nanny with Kid
Or....
Billy showing equipment.
nfh
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clink on the link. Will find some test to take on goats
http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID8/4940.html#.Uctr0iLnbmQ
http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID8/4940.html#.Uctr0iLnbmQ
