My Response to NM Game and Fish Proposals

[agrvarminthunter]

I am pretty sure the management of our game and fish could screw up a wet dream. Now because people think their not getting a fair chance at drawing a tag and complaining we now have to find a way to liberalize a system that is probably one of the simplest and fairest draw systems still left in our hunting system. If you are not a bright enough individual to figure out that you should put in for one quality high demand hunt as your first choice and then put in for some hunts that are going to the the hunts of your lifetime on your own I now know why I have inquired many of the idiots I have while hunting my whole life here in NM. I just hope that I get all my quality trophies on the wall before game and fish and all of you that want your fair chance to go on a quality hunt screw it up for the rest of us. You can usually find a quality animal in a lot of the areas in NM if you are willing to do something besides camp in the meadows and areas where the elk frequent and drive the damn roads the whole hunt. If you get one ridge over from all the driving it is amazing the wildlife you are exposed to. Not to mention if Obama gets in have fun buying ammo to hunt with anyways. Just those of us that are smart enough to reload and cast our own bullets might have a chance, then I will be drawing out every year. Yes I have had my successes in drawing hunts, but I have also had my failures. You aren't going to draw out for every hunt you put in for every year. I think that is about as fair as you can get. If they start making this a rich mans game like many other states have done, while trying to make it fair for all of you that whine that you never draw out this hunt isn't going to be worth hunting either and I am gonna have to do something different cause we all know I can't play the money game.

agrvarminthunter

 

[nmhs]

Is there a proposal that I am not aware that you are talking about. Does it have to do with a point system or something. Clue me in would ya?

 

[tsquared]

Here is the proposed changes on the NMGFD website. If you look at proposition O and P about quality and High Demand hunts. They want to add a 1yr waiting period if drawn for one of the tags. I say we all need to make a little noise about it.


http://www.wildlife.state.nm.us/com...103HuntingandFishingLicenseApplication_2_.pdf

 

[nmwapiti]

Personally, I am all for it. I am not one of the "idiot" hunters that varmint hunter refers to, just very unlucky when it comes to drawing a tag. I drew an elk tag this year only because I wanted to go hunting so bad, I put in for a unit that had 100% draw odds last year. Well there is a reason it was a guaranteed tag. I know people that draw time and time again and it does get frustrating. My home turf, unit 44/45 in the Pecos is now a HD unit for some of the hunts. If someone has to sit out a year, I think it will greatly improve the odds so hunters will have a better chance of drawing every other year. It is a good compromise IMO, and better than going to a point system, which I am opposed to.

 

[RabidRattleSnake1]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-03-08 AT 12:50PM (MST)[p]I see both side of the fight, but I don't like the idea of changing from our currnt system. But then again according to my friends I am a lucky SOB so there you go. When they tell me I am one of the "lucky ones" I always say to them that they can "rub me for luck", never any takers though. You draw big horn on you first try and you are branded lucky for the rest of your life.

 

[nmhs]

Well I to can see both sides of the fight. I dont like the idea of the point system. I know several guys that draw elk tags for many years in a row and I know several guys that have been putting in for close to 10 years and have yet to draw. I personally like the idea of the having to wait a year on HD hunts when it comes to large game such as elk. I dont like the idea of having to wait a year if I draw a Q/HD archery tag for a non Q/HD unit such as unit 34. For most bow hunters this can be the only opportunity to hunt during the year and with a bow. Not to mention it is with a bow and not a rifle. AZ archery deer hunts are all OTC and not draw. There are other arguments to this point that I have not posted. My .02

 

[wapiticraig]

The "Q" is something that G&F claims is increased oportunity our a pleasant hunting experience. The "HD" is determined by the number of non-residents that apply for a particular hunt. Even if a million apply only 22% of the tags go to non-residents so I can't see why a resident should have to wait a year if they drew a HD tag the year before.

 

[nmelk13]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-03-08 AT 08:06PM (MST)[p]

I am just going to throw out some numbers that I pulled out of my rear.

Say for example residents get 117 tags nons get 33 for XX unit that is HD/Q. Now for that year 1500 residents put in for that tag and say 500 nons. Now the next year residents will still be competeing with 1383 people for the 117 tags and nons 567 if nobody new puts in for that XX unit. So please explain to me how that is going to help? It isnt going to do anything for your odds and there will still be people crying they havent drawn.

Charge up front fees, put back same weapon choices for all 3 choices. Hell the up-front fees alone will weed out alot of people that put there wifes brothers dads cat in.

 

[muliefanatic]

nmelk13

You are right with the up front fees. We also have to give Game and Fish a break. No matter what they do there is alway's some one complaining. I think that we have one of the best wildlife agency's in the country.

Muliefanatic

 

[nmelk13]

Mulie
I think G&F does the best they can with what they have to work with. Is there problems oh heck yeah but overall I think they are doing a good job. There is always going to be people complaining about not getting drawn. I also think NM'S draw is the best way to do a draw except for not charging up front fees. If anything that is what is hurting chances for people.

 

[crazeymaez]

+1 nmelk13 pay to play...

 

[tsquared]

I too think the paying up front is a good idea. It will help the odds more than any 1 year penalty.

 

[joesikora]

I spoke to G&F yesterday and they also want to raise app fees to $10 res and $30 nr. As far as the HD & Q proposal, about making it more fare. I want the Powerball Lottery to improve my odds because I have been playing for years now and I hav'nt won.




"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long that it seems right"

Joe E Sikora

11/4/2008

 

[nmhs]

How about raising fees and paying up front for this go around and then they can think about implementing a waiting program on the next cycle? Has anybody ever sent forum opinions and responses such as these to the the game and fish?

 

[leftturnabq]

You were "branded lucky" long before you drew for bighorn.

I know you've done a lot to make your own luck (research and hard hunting, etc.), but everyone that knows you knows that you have had some kind of blessing bestowed upon you by the hunting gods.

 

[jamaro]

Not trying to be a jerk the all of these comments and concerns go on deaf ears unless you get involved.
There are some antelope meetings coming up.. Make sure you are heard...

Jason
www.chasingtherut.com

 

[mozey]

Are we talking elk, deer, or both here? Aren't up-front fees already required for everything but deer? If you want to make deer up front as well, that's okay with me, but how is that going to change our odds on HD/Q elk tag (which is what I get the sense that most folks are up in arms about)?

If you want to raise the fees, more is better, isn't it? Raise the Res a couple hundred or so, that ought to drive out all but the real serious hunters, give a shot in the arm to G&F, and would still be less than a NR to any other state. Enough of this wussing around...

 

[nmelk13]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-04-08 AT 07:43PM (MST)[p]Mozey,
For being in NM I am astonished that you dont know how the draw and fees work! Anybody and everybody can put in on-line for 8 bones. Then if they draw they get charged. This is where the problem is there is a ton of people that put there brothers, sisters, grandmas, in-laws etc in because it only costs 8 bones. Charging the full amount when the app is submitted would weed out alot of this bs! Charge up-front and go back to same weapon choice on all choices would do wonders for everybody.. I forgot to add this is for elk, Ibex, Oryx, Bighorn..

 

[mozey]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-04-08 AT 07:49PM (MST)[p]Well thanks for that nmelk13. I have a phobia about using a credit card on-line for anything, so that's why I didn't know.

I always mail in the check!

 

[mozey]

So my question is, if it's a credit card thing, people still wouldn't be charged the whole amount up front, would they? They would just be paying interest on the principle for two or three months, which would probably not be a significant amount. You all think that would be enough to scare off those that are putting all their siblings plus the family pet in? I'm not so sure...

 

[mozey]

...being the totally clueless chump about the credit cards, I've still managed to draw a bull tag each of the past six years (plus a cow tag immediately before that), and a buck tag each of the last four, so I do know how to play the game: put in for an OIL-unit your first choice, and easy-to-draw units for your 2nd and 3rd. Put some effort into scouting your 2nd and 3rd choices so that you're ready in the likely event you're drawn for one of those units. Thirty percent sucess rate in those types of units every year adds up to more bulls and bucks than a hundred percent success from a unit you'll likely draw less than once every five years. Spend more time in the hills actually hunting rather than in front of your computer.

 

[nmelk13]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-04-08 AT 08:50PM (MST)[p]Mozey- Dont take what I said personally i wasnt ragging on you just surprised you didnt unerstand how the whole on-line thing works.If you use a CC they need to charge the whole fee. That is the problem to many people are putting everybody and there brother in for a tag because it is only 8 bones. So if they charge the whole fee upfront and then if you do not draw refund the credit card minus the 8 bones it would weed out the rotten apples.
Charging the whole fee upfront isnt going to turn into the rich mans game it is doing what you already do which is the old school way which I love.

 

[mozey]

I now understand, but my question is still the same. If NMDGF temporarily charges say a $100 bucks against a credit card (cc) rather than just $8, how is that going to significantly change things? Say someone puts 10 people in on his cc for a total of a $1,000. He'll be temporarily carrying an $1,000 on his cc for a couple months at most. Assume he is paying 20 percent interest for that two months. The most he'll be out is about $35 bucks in interest if he or his family doesn't draw a single tag ($1000 X 2 / 12 X 0.2).

So again I'm asking, with the current cc system in place being the way that it is, how is charging the full amount up front going to really discourage anyone from putting as many applicants on their cc as they want?

 

[crazeymaez]

The game and fish would pull all the money at once.Lets say a NR puts in for Ibex,Bighorn and elk.More than likly hes not gonna draw but his name is in the pot for all three for a whooping$24.00.With the up front money he would now have to come up with Bighorn $3,166.00 ibex$1,616.00 elk$766.00 for a grand total of $5548.00 big ones.Now Joe Blow is thinking well I guess im just putting in for elk.Leaving his name out of the pot for the other 2 therfore increasing ur odds to go chase sheep.For $8 I put nephews ,joselle ,dad and myself in for bighorn.If i had to put down the whole amount I couldnt do it .Now im just putting in for me ,myself and I

 

[nmelk13]

Even though crazey is using nr pricing you get the jest of it. I couldnt afford to put all my family members in for a resident tag or should I say I could but I freaking wouldnt if the whole fee is needed! BTW I dont put my family members in to draw a tag but others do and I promise you it would cut down 40% of the apps!!!

 

[mozey]

I know I read somewhere that the res and non-res are in separate pools, and don't compete for the same allotment of available tags. I certainly can see crazey's agrument for non-res, now we're starting to talk about some serious bucks that may slow the average joe down.

But for the res allotment, even for sheep and ibex, I don't see a $161 per pop being that much of a disincentive for someone to load up a bunch of their family and friends on their cc; it would still cost less than $60 bucks to put in ten of your best friends and family.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but it seems like I get a different cc offer just about every day. It would be so easy to get one of those ccs, load it up with applications for about 50 or 60 of my closest relatives and/or friends, ask them all to contribute $6 to cover the interest on the temporary cc balance. After the draw, the principle gets paid back to the cc, less any successful applicants. Pay off the $320 interest and close out the card, without barely any skin off of anyone's nose.

What I'm driving at here, is if you really expect full upfront fees to be a deterrent, we'll need to eliminate the cc option and demand payment in full be made by check or money order only. Otherwise, I think we'll just expend a bunch of energy that in the end will not achieve the desired result.

 

[agrvarminthunter]

Is there anyone that has responded to these comments that has problems with them being sent anonymously to the game and fish so they have an idea where some of us NM sportsmen stand on the subject. If so let me know otherwise I would like to send them in making sure that user names are not included as well. I think I have had a little change of heart on the pay up front option. I do think that it would have a tendency to increase our odds of drawing by eliminating those that put everyone in. I still think you should be able to fill out your app and if you draw you draw and if you don't you don't, put in again the next year. Let me know.

agrvarminthunter

 

[icemannm]

no matter what u do u can't please everyone.i don't like the Q-HD proposals leave the draw alone.if u draw great if not better luck next time.would like to see same weapon all choices and pay up front fees with no refund if u don't draw.no matter what they do i will find a way to go hunting.

tony

 

[Cookie2]

I agree with iceman on this one EXCEPT that I'm not willing to pay for tags that I don't recieve! Are you completely nuts or just have that much money that you'd be willing to pay for nothing? Or maybe you figure that only the rich will put in and everyone else will stay out thus guarantying(sp) yourself a tag?
One weapon choice would cut down on a lot of the clowns I hear saying they put in for archery elk as a second choice because the odds are so much better and the bozo doesn't even own a bow! This is a VERY big peave of mine. If you wanna rifle hunt put in for rifle. I bow hunt and ONLY put in that way.

 

[nmelk13]

What is the big deal we used to have to pay upfront when it was only paper apps?

 

[nmhs]

I was told recently that NM used to have to pay up front fees like you said but they changed that because it was taking a long time to get the money back to hunters that did not draw. I know this is not the case now. Lets pay up front fees but hold off on any changes to the QHD................

 

[5yearcoueshunter]

I'm opposed to this as well. I don't think it's going to significantly increase draw odds. I'm with everybody around paying licence fees up front. If you are against this recommendation I encourge everyone to let game and fish know about it before the next game commission meeting on Dec 4.

Thanks
Travis

 

[Cookie2]

I just fired this one off myself. We are going to have to stick together on this or things could get real ugly in the years to come!!

Greetings.
There are a couple of things that I, as a
concerned sportsman of New Mexico am very
trounled about.

1. The proposal of putting barbary sheep to a
draw system except for private land only
licenses.
I have watched as barbary sheep has become a
very popular hunt and it is my belief that the
sole reason for this is that every other species
has gone to a limited draw thus leaving only one
species for sportsmen to hunt if they are
unsuccessful in the draw process. Before deer
went to a draw there were very few hunters in
the field for barbary sheep.
Last year the season was extended in unit 32
because some private land owners in the unit
were complaining that there were too many
sheep on their property and they needed more
time to thin them out. I have been accused of
being too negative a time or two but I believe
this was actually a successful attempt on the
landowners part to increase revenues from
selling access to their land! I fully respect the
ownership rights of these landowners but I do
not agree that an animal released into the wild
with the original intent being increased
opportunity should now be hunted for 45 days
mainly by those with the resources to pay
extraordiary amounts.
The new proposal is to put sheep in a draw
because "mature ram quality is low?" I would
venture to guess that a lot of that input is
coming from the same people who pushed for
the extended season in unit 32 last year. If
sheep is in a draw and private is unlimited the
that will make their private hunts THAT much
more valuable. I think that if quality really is an
issue then maybe the first step should be to
shorten the season and see if that helps rather
than limiting the number of hunters. It is
doubtful in my opinion that one year of hunting
for the forty five day season has reduced the
numbers to the point that a draw is necesary.
Also since when has low quality male game
animals been a concern of the NMDGF? I know
that it was attempted in several units for elk a
few years back but has since been dropped so
why is it even being considered now with
barbary sheep?

2. Q/HD Licenses.
I think I might have been in on this one a
couple of years ago but have since had a little
time to re-think my position and feel that it
would ultimately lead to the total revamping and
destruction of what I consider to be the fairest
draw system in the country. In a few years there
should be a shift in the Q/HD designations
because of the fact that those who draw these
licenses will be forced to either put in for
different units or sit out a year and I don't think
the latter is going to be an option for very many
at all! Given the system for determining the
Q/HD hunts, there will be a shift thus making
most hunt codes Q/HD.
I hear talk that there is a proposal to make all
license applications pay up front and this, to
me, seems a loigical step to take. I cannot find
it anywhere on your website but it would
definitely take a lot of abuse out of the system
in my opinion. I don't think there will be near as
many people putting their sister's nephew's
cousin's wife in the pool for every species if they
have to pay for all of the license fees up front.
Sure, if it only costs sixty dollars why not, but if
it's going to be in the hundreds?? There is a lot
of discussion going on the internet in the forums
and chat rooms right now about this and one of
the arguements against is that they can't aford
to pay up front but I say if you can't afford it now
how will you be able to afford it at draw time? If
you are serious about hunting then you will find
a way.

Thank You for taking the time to read and
consider this. I would welcome any reaponses to
this both pro and con as I feel the only way we
are going to keep New Mexico the greatest
hunting destination in the USA is by working
together.

 

[icemannm]

cookie
first let me retract my statement about no refunds if u don't draw.i'm not crazy or have that much money i just did'nt think about it from all angles.it would not be fair to everyone even though it's only $100.i'm like u we need to stick together or we all lose.

tony

 

[jbone]

Here are my comments that I sent on 11/6

*****
To Whom It May Concern:

First and foremost, let me say thank you for doing a very difficult job (i.e., trying to balance the natural resources of NM while trying to afford a higher opportunity for others to enjoy these outdoor sports). As a sportsmen in the State of NM, I thoroughly enjoy hunting and fishing in this state.

After reviewing the section, "Hunting and Fishing License Application," I have some serious concerns about 19.31.38 O and P. My concerns about O and P are that on the surface it would appear to be a good idea to go to an every other year application for HD/Q hunts. However, once you start to think about it, the results of these actions (especially as related to bow hunting since almost half of the current hunts are listed as HD/Q hunts already) will: (1) within a short period of time, all ES/Bull/Buck tags will become HD due to the number of non-resident hunters forced to apply for the S hunts and thus, once will be forced to a cow only application or no application in the case of deer - eventually, all elk tags will also become HD since more and more people will be applying for cow hunts in units that they have previously hunted as an ES/MB tag, (2) landowner tags will go through the roof in terms of $$$ as a result of this loophole, and (3) both of the aforementioned concerns will detrimentally impact the resident much more than the non-resident. Another concern that I have is with how the LO tag system works for both deer and elk; it appears your headed in the right direction with the antelope tags - why not do the same with elk/deer LO tags? Hunting should not become a rich person's sport. After all, these are state resources that have been supported by the paying of taxes by all NM residents. I fully support leaving the application process alone; this is the most equitable system there is in the west. Again, it should be left alone.

I do not support raising the application fees to $10/$30. However, I am in full support of submitting the full fee due for a hunting license at time of application. I am also in full support of raising hunting license amounts for elk and deer for both resident and non-resident in order to provide better monetary support to the NMG&F.

As I have said in my other comments, though there has not been any changes in the regulations verbiage, the 78/22 rule needs to be extrapolated to other species - Barbary Sheep, Desert & Rocky Mountain Big Horn Sheep, Bear, Ibex, and Oryx.

I also have to comment on bear hunting. Zone 4 needs to be split apart to reflect the electric fence that serves as an animal barrier along the I40 corridor. This fence essentially physically divides this zone into 2 separate and distinct zones. Due to the high population center of Albuquerque, there seems to be a higher amount of depredation kills as compared to sporting kills in this zone and it negatively impacts the sport hunting aspect of bear hunting. If there is such a high need for depredation kills, NMG&F needs to consider a spring bear hunting season in not only this Zone but other Zones which has a high number of depredation versus sporting kills.

I hope my comments help. If you should have any quesitons about them, please do not hesitate.

Thanks.

******

JBone

 

[agrvarminthunter]

I am composing an word document with all these comments in it and sending it to directors at game and fish. I will take all user names, etc. from it and send it to them as general comments. I think some good points were made here and I would like them to receive it before their next game comission meeting.

agrvarminthunter

 

[jamaro]

ag...
when you are done lets put it on my website.... if that is okay... I know that people from the dept subscribe to it..
J

 

[Shoottillthedustclears]

Ok im a Arizona Resident and i dont trust the pt system i have 13 pts for elk, goats and big horn and i doubt that i will draw any time soon. so i think that the pt system sucks.
I hunt new mexico for deer every year as a non res. but i also put in for a unit that is practically 100% draw odds and it is a tough hunt and i know i might not even see deer every day but i have killed deer every year for the last four years ranging from 190 - 160 (nice bucks). and i have yet to draw a elk tag in nm. but totally disagree with having to wait out a year to put in if drawn for a HD/Q hunt.

I THINK THAT THE BEST THING THEY COULD DO IS MAKE PEOPLE PAY UP FRONT FOR THERE TAGS. QUIT THE ONLINE DRAW. IT ALL NEEDS TO GO BACK TO PAPER APP. IM TIRED OF HEARING PEOPLE TELL ME THAT THEY PUT IN FOR NM CAUSE IT DONT COST ANY MONEY UP FRONT BUT THE $6.00 APP FEE.
OK BOTTOM LINE
1. MAKE PEOPLE PAY UP FRONT, NO CREDIT CARDS. IF YOU DONT HAVE THE CASH TO HUNT SAVE UP FOR NEXT YEAR.
2. PAPER MAIL IN APPS.

 

[agrvarminthunter]

Do you want me to email this or put it in the comments section. I have it ready to fire off.

agr

 

[mozey]

+1, except I need to know a little more about where you're shooting those 160-190 bucks... ;-)

 

[hunting1]

Pay up front, check only or no more online credit card and no changes to the current Q/HD system. AZ went back to paper apps last year and cash up front. It would as said earlier help everyone and weed out the others who just put in because their buddy talked them into it or wives, grandmas, etc.

 

[Shoottillthedustclears]

ok here is how you shoot a nice buck. get drawn and find a good track follow that track till you find the deer even if that means sleeping on it. thats how im killing these 160-190 inch bucks

 

[agrvarminthunter]

Hey Everybody,

I have been contacted by the Assistant Director in the Resource Division and he has received all the comments and said he would make sure that they were addressed at tomorrow's meeting in Deming. If anyone has anything else he welcomed me to visit with him ahead of time and said he appreciated our interest in the matter.

 

[trophyhill]

surely you cant be serious about your comments. have you looked at the commisions resumes? non of them i dont think have ever worked in the field as game and fish officers. there decision making blows me away starting with richardson. these guys all have private land owner connections and hunt for little or nothing without having to worry about a draw tag while they pass more and more rules and regs that make it more difficult every year to draw. hell the head of the game and fish gets caught poaching and gets promoted to a higher paying state job instead of getting fired. the meating in deming was a joke. they shut the guys up rather quickly that were trying to voice there opinion on the proposed q/hd regs changes. it ws clear that they had an agenda and were gonna see it thru no matter what the hunters and taxpayers had to say about it. this group of people are not for the hunters but for themselves and land owners. my opinion is that the people holding these jobs should be promoted from the crew of game and fish officers. they are the ones that see what really is happening out in the field. it is all a politicians game now. and it will become a rich mans sport. you watch and see.

 

[trophyhill]

yes and im sure they went straight to the recycle bin or trash can.