National Parks?
- Thread starter jhawksd
- Start date
T
TFinalshot
Guest
It is NOT legal in the National Parks I'm familier with (glacier, yellowstone).
In fact, it's not even legal to make sounds that disturbe them. I'm trying to use the existing regulations to get a ban on open pipe "hogs" in our national parks. It's getting so that you cant go anywhere anymore without being anoyed by those obnoxious machines. Animals cant stand them, and neither can I. . . It's stange that one can disturb elk, deer, bears, and people legally so long as you sound like an obnoxious machine. Heaven forbid if you sound like a real animal, you know how that might hurt. . .
In fact, it's not even legal to make sounds that disturbe them. I'm trying to use the existing regulations to get a ban on open pipe "hogs" in our national parks. It's getting so that you cant go anywhere anymore without being anoyed by those obnoxious machines. Animals cant stand them, and neither can I. . . It's stange that one can disturb elk, deer, bears, and people legally so long as you sound like an obnoxious machine. Heaven forbid if you sound like a real animal, you know how that might hurt. . .
SneakAttack
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,404
Once again, who's recreation is more important. I hope the attempt on banning on bikes dies where it lays.
T
TFinalshot
Guest
trust me, it wont. . . We've already got a jump on this one.
And, the National Park Service already has regulations for noise, and most modified hogs dont pass the test. the deal now is to get the law enforced.
Here's the AMA's position (public and to legislators on the hill):
Excessive Motorcycle Noise
The American Motorcyclist Association, established in 1924, has maintained a position of strong opposition to excessive motorcycle noise throughout its history. It has funded information and public relations campaigns in support of quiet motorcycle use and was the first motorsports sanctioning body in the world to regulate and reduce the sound level of racing vehicles.
The Association believes that few other factors contribute more to misunderstanding and prejudice against the motorcycling community than excessively noisy motorcycles. A minority, riding loud motorcycles, may leave the impression that all motorcycles are loud. In fact, a significant percentage of the public does not realize that motorcycles are built to federally mandated noise control standards.
Each segment of the motorcycling community -- including the riders, event organizers, retailers and distributors, original equipment and aftermarket manufacturers, law enforcement and the safety community -- must realize that it cannot single- handedly solve this problem. However, each has a role and a responsibility in achieving a solution.
Shifting blame and failing to adopt responsible policies on a voluntary basis can only result in greater prejudice and discrimination against motorcycling. The consequences of continuing to ignore this issue will likely result in excessively rigorous state and federal standards, more expensive and less attractive motorcycles, the reduction of choices in aftermarket products, abusive enforcement of current laws and other solutions undesirable to riders and the motorcycle industry.
Based on its opposition to excessive motorcycle noise, the American Motorcyclist Association recommends the following:
* All motorcyclists should be sensitive to community standards and respect the rights of fellow citizens to enjoy a peaceful environment.
* Motorcyclists should not modify exhaust systems in a way that will increase sound to an offensive level.
* Organizers of motorcycle events should take steps through advertising, peer pressure and enforcement to make excessively loud motorcycles unwelcome.
* Motorcycle retailers should discourage the installation and use of excessively loud replacement exhaust systems.
* The motorcycle industry, including aftermarket suppliers of replacement exhaust systems, should adopt responsible product design and marketing policies aimed at limiting the cumulative impact of excessive motorcycle noise.
* Manufacturers producing motorcycles to appropriate federal standards should continue to educate their dealers and customers that louder exhaust systems do not necessarily improve the performance of a motorcycle.
* Law enforcement agencies should fairly and consistently enforce appropriate laws and ordinances against excessive vehicle noise.
* The motorcycle industry and the safety community should educate customers that excessive noise may be fatiguing to riders, making them less able to enjoy riding and less able to exercise good riding skills.
QUESTIONS & ANSWERS
Q: What is "excessive noise?"
A: No one likes excessive or unreasonable noise. Confusion arises because everyone has a different definition of "excessive." Noise considered excessive in one environment may be acceptable in another. It's up to you to determine what is excessive. This determination shouldn't always be based on the rider, but rather the conditions around the rider. Some factors to consider include surroundings, time of day, traffic mix, people present, etc.
Q: Why did the AMA suddenly issue this position statement?
A: The AMA has fought motorcycle bans in St. Louis, Detroit, Brockton, Massachusetts, and Springfield, Illinois. The foundation for each was tied to excessive noise. More recently we have confronted proposed motorcycle prohibitions in Chicago and New York City. Motorcycle noise, again, was the justification for these proposals.
In the past several years, the AMA has spent well over $100,000 defending lawsuits and confronting legislative prohibitions initiated by zealous legislators responding to their belief that motorcycles are too loud. In Europe, where road closures to stifle excessive noise are becoming almost commonplace, anti-tampering legislation and restrictive sound emission requirements are under serious consideration.
The position results from the Board's desire to avoid further restrictions on motorcycling. If the excessive noise problem is not addressed voluntarily, and in a timely fashion, these restrictions are inevitable. The Board agrees that failing to raise this warning, despite the potential negative reception by some, would be shirking their responsibility to AMA members and the motorcycling community.
Q: If my exhaust is modified or capable of producing "excessive noise," will I be denied access to AMA or other motorcycle events?
A: There are no plans to do so. However, all motorcyclists need to become more sensitive to how they affect others. The AMA has encouraged event organizers to use advertising, peer pressure and enforcement of event rules to discourage excessively loud motorcycles.
Q: Why should appropriate laws and ordinances against excessive vehicle noise be fairly and consistently enforced?
A: The AMA believes that if existing laws and ordinances governing excessive noise from vehicles of all types were fairly and consistently enforced, the problem of noisy vehicles would be effectively eliminated.
Q: What good is it to regulate myself if others continue to make excessive noise?
A: Excessive noise is not the fault of any one brand, any particular style of bike, or any single segment of the motorcycle industry. It is a community-wide problem and we all need to be part of the solution.
Q: Is the AMA telling me to replace my aftermarket exhaust with an original-equipment exhaust?
A: No. However, modified exhaust systems should not increase sound to an offensive level.
VOLUNTARY SOUND MANAGEMENT
Rick Gray, AMA Trustee
With many rights come responsibilities. We enjoy the right to free speech in America, but that right does not entitle us to yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater. So too, the right to ride a motorcycle does not permit us to infringe on the peaceful enjoyment of life by others. Indeed, many others, including the courts, view motorcycling not as a right but a privilege. This is an important distinction because under our legal system, the government can regulate or eliminate a privilege much easier than it can restrict or cancel a right.
When we examine lessons from history, it's predictable that when a minority abuses a right or privilege the majority will react. The reaction usually takes the form of some repressive measure. Often the phrase, "I hate motorcycles" is immediately followed with "they're too loud." Reactions of this nature regularly result in bike bans and proposals to limit the modifications we can make to our motorcycles.
Activist motorcyclists throughout the world have defended themselves against such reactions, and here in the United States the AMA has spent more than $100,000 fighting bike ban lawsuits in recent years. All too often, the measures being fought by the AMA originated in part or total because a minority of motorcyclists have not acted responsibly when it comes to noise.
Much of this predicament is not an equipment or engineering problem, but rather a behavioral problem. Some motorcycles, when operated under certain conditions, are virtually guaranteed to offend others by interfering with their right to a peaceful environment. Irresponsibly making excessive noise with motorcycle exhaust systems is tantamount to yelling "Fire," yet some do it daily.
Rather than abuse our right to ride, shouldn't we view that right as a resource to be conserved, nurtured and developed? Can we realize that "noise" has become a political problem? Shouldn't we engage in voluntary sound management through reasonable self-regulation in order to avoid the imposition of repressive regulations?
With responsible voluntary sound management, we can "soundly manage" our precious resource of motorcycling. Without it, we invite further government regulation or worse. The choice is ours.
And, the National Park Service already has regulations for noise, and most modified hogs dont pass the test. the deal now is to get the law enforced.
Here's the AMA's position (public and to legislators on the hill):
Excessive Motorcycle Noise
The American Motorcyclist Association, established in 1924, has maintained a position of strong opposition to excessive motorcycle noise throughout its history. It has funded information and public relations campaigns in support of quiet motorcycle use and was the first motorsports sanctioning body in the world to regulate and reduce the sound level of racing vehicles.
The Association believes that few other factors contribute more to misunderstanding and prejudice against the motorcycling community than excessively noisy motorcycles. A minority, riding loud motorcycles, may leave the impression that all motorcycles are loud. In fact, a significant percentage of the public does not realize that motorcycles are built to federally mandated noise control standards.
Each segment of the motorcycling community -- including the riders, event organizers, retailers and distributors, original equipment and aftermarket manufacturers, law enforcement and the safety community -- must realize that it cannot single- handedly solve this problem. However, each has a role and a responsibility in achieving a solution.
Shifting blame and failing to adopt responsible policies on a voluntary basis can only result in greater prejudice and discrimination against motorcycling. The consequences of continuing to ignore this issue will likely result in excessively rigorous state and federal standards, more expensive and less attractive motorcycles, the reduction of choices in aftermarket products, abusive enforcement of current laws and other solutions undesirable to riders and the motorcycle industry.
Based on its opposition to excessive motorcycle noise, the American Motorcyclist Association recommends the following:
* All motorcyclists should be sensitive to community standards and respect the rights of fellow citizens to enjoy a peaceful environment.
* Motorcyclists should not modify exhaust systems in a way that will increase sound to an offensive level.
* Organizers of motorcycle events should take steps through advertising, peer pressure and enforcement to make excessively loud motorcycles unwelcome.
* Motorcycle retailers should discourage the installation and use of excessively loud replacement exhaust systems.
* The motorcycle industry, including aftermarket suppliers of replacement exhaust systems, should adopt responsible product design and marketing policies aimed at limiting the cumulative impact of excessive motorcycle noise.
* Manufacturers producing motorcycles to appropriate federal standards should continue to educate their dealers and customers that louder exhaust systems do not necessarily improve the performance of a motorcycle.
* Law enforcement agencies should fairly and consistently enforce appropriate laws and ordinances against excessive vehicle noise.
* The motorcycle industry and the safety community should educate customers that excessive noise may be fatiguing to riders, making them less able to enjoy riding and less able to exercise good riding skills.
QUESTIONS & ANSWERS
Q: What is "excessive noise?"
A: No one likes excessive or unreasonable noise. Confusion arises because everyone has a different definition of "excessive." Noise considered excessive in one environment may be acceptable in another. It's up to you to determine what is excessive. This determination shouldn't always be based on the rider, but rather the conditions around the rider. Some factors to consider include surroundings, time of day, traffic mix, people present, etc.
Q: Why did the AMA suddenly issue this position statement?
A: The AMA has fought motorcycle bans in St. Louis, Detroit, Brockton, Massachusetts, and Springfield, Illinois. The foundation for each was tied to excessive noise. More recently we have confronted proposed motorcycle prohibitions in Chicago and New York City. Motorcycle noise, again, was the justification for these proposals.
In the past several years, the AMA has spent well over $100,000 defending lawsuits and confronting legislative prohibitions initiated by zealous legislators responding to their belief that motorcycles are too loud. In Europe, where road closures to stifle excessive noise are becoming almost commonplace, anti-tampering legislation and restrictive sound emission requirements are under serious consideration.
The position results from the Board's desire to avoid further restrictions on motorcycling. If the excessive noise problem is not addressed voluntarily, and in a timely fashion, these restrictions are inevitable. The Board agrees that failing to raise this warning, despite the potential negative reception by some, would be shirking their responsibility to AMA members and the motorcycling community.
Q: If my exhaust is modified or capable of producing "excessive noise," will I be denied access to AMA or other motorcycle events?
A: There are no plans to do so. However, all motorcyclists need to become more sensitive to how they affect others. The AMA has encouraged event organizers to use advertising, peer pressure and enforcement of event rules to discourage excessively loud motorcycles.
Q: Why should appropriate laws and ordinances against excessive vehicle noise be fairly and consistently enforced?
A: The AMA believes that if existing laws and ordinances governing excessive noise from vehicles of all types were fairly and consistently enforced, the problem of noisy vehicles would be effectively eliminated.
Q: What good is it to regulate myself if others continue to make excessive noise?
A: Excessive noise is not the fault of any one brand, any particular style of bike, or any single segment of the motorcycle industry. It is a community-wide problem and we all need to be part of the solution.
Q: Is the AMA telling me to replace my aftermarket exhaust with an original-equipment exhaust?
A: No. However, modified exhaust systems should not increase sound to an offensive level.
VOLUNTARY SOUND MANAGEMENT
Rick Gray, AMA Trustee
With many rights come responsibilities. We enjoy the right to free speech in America, but that right does not entitle us to yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater. So too, the right to ride a motorcycle does not permit us to infringe on the peaceful enjoyment of life by others. Indeed, many others, including the courts, view motorcycling not as a right but a privilege. This is an important distinction because under our legal system, the government can regulate or eliminate a privilege much easier than it can restrict or cancel a right.
When we examine lessons from history, it's predictable that when a minority abuses a right or privilege the majority will react. The reaction usually takes the form of some repressive measure. Often the phrase, "I hate motorcycles" is immediately followed with "they're too loud." Reactions of this nature regularly result in bike bans and proposals to limit the modifications we can make to our motorcycles.
Activist motorcyclists throughout the world have defended themselves against such reactions, and here in the United States the AMA has spent more than $100,000 fighting bike ban lawsuits in recent years. All too often, the measures being fought by the AMA originated in part or total because a minority of motorcyclists have not acted responsibly when it comes to noise.
Much of this predicament is not an equipment or engineering problem, but rather a behavioral problem. Some motorcycles, when operated under certain conditions, are virtually guaranteed to offend others by interfering with their right to a peaceful environment. Irresponsibly making excessive noise with motorcycle exhaust systems is tantamount to yelling "Fire," yet some do it daily.
Rather than abuse our right to ride, shouldn't we view that right as a resource to be conserved, nurtured and developed? Can we realize that "noise" has become a political problem? Shouldn't we engage in voluntary sound management through reasonable self-regulation in order to avoid the imposition of repressive regulations?
With responsible voluntary sound management, we can "soundly manage" our precious resource of motorcycling. Without it, we invite further government regulation or worse. The choice is ours.
C
CUTTHROAT
Guest
When I've spent time in glacier and yellowstone I've seen loud bikes drive by without disturbing animals nearly as much as dumb butts trying to get close with a camera. If we are truley concerned about animals we should ban photography first.
T
TFinalshot
Guest
Well, I happen to live on the boundry of a national park year around and see the park out my window. I spend much time in the parks. I see some make the mistakes of getting too close. In most cases animals are habituated to people takeing pictures.
I dare you to come with me and I'll show you, first hand what I'm talking about. However, you cant dispute the fact that a couple of un muffled hogs dissrupts the outdoor experence for almost all but those that like the sound of loud machines, humans and animals. If you like the sound of those bikes, stay in town and rev them all you want, they dont belong in our parks. . . IMHO
I dare you to come with me and I'll show you, first hand what I'm talking about. However, you cant dispute the fact that a couple of un muffled hogs dissrupts the outdoor experence for almost all but those that like the sound of loud machines, humans and animals. If you like the sound of those bikes, stay in town and rev them all you want, they dont belong in our parks. . . IMHO
G
GrandpaNasty
Guest
loud ass pipes dont belong anywhere but a race track. keep the wild places wild
D
DallanC
Guest
>I dare you to come with
>me and I'll show you,
>first hand what I'm talking
>about. However, you cant
>dispute the fact that a
>couple of un muffled hogs
>dissrupts the outdoor experence for
>almost all but those that
>like the sound of loud
>machines, humans and animals. If
>you like the sound of
>those bikes, stay in town
>and rev them all you
>want, they dont belong in
>our parks. . . IMHO
What spoils it for me is the sound of airplanes flying over. We need to ban airplanes... even commercial jets.
-DallanC
>me and I'll show you,
>first hand what I'm talking
>about. However, you cant
>dispute the fact that a
>couple of un muffled hogs
>dissrupts the outdoor experence for
>almost all but those that
>like the sound of loud
>machines, humans and animals. If
>you like the sound of
>those bikes, stay in town
>and rev them all you
>want, they dont belong in
>our parks. . . IMHO
What spoils it for me is the sound of airplanes flying over. We need to ban airplanes... even commercial jets.
-DallanC
T
TFinalshot
Guest
If you think that's realistic and your willing to take on the fight I'd say good on you. Just for your information, if you really are intterested in the issue of overflights and national parks, you can contact Steve Thompons ([email protected]) with the National Parks Conservation Service, he is leading that charge for Glacier National Park . . .
Great to hear that there other people that are interested in the NPS enforcing existing laws. . .
Take care,
Great to hear that there other people that are interested in the NPS enforcing existing laws. . .
Take care,
W
wyohikeit
Guest
LAST EDITED ON Sep-24-06 AT 04:31PM (MST)[p]I spend at least 10 days each fall hiking the backcountry of Yellowstone looking at the sheds and taking pictures of the bulls N bears N all creation. It's always bugged me to be three miles from the nearest road and still hear some loud vehicle roar by. Yes the planes are noisy too. Those sounds certainly don't hurt the wildlife and if my attitude is right I realize that those are the sounds of the peopled planet I live on, like it or not. I would rather not hear a motor at all in these natural settings but thats the way it is. Yes it is illegal to bugle at or in any way call elk in the park.
T
TFinalshot
Guest
Can anyone give us a good reason, with all the millions of roads open to everything with wheels or feet, we cant keep a few closed to the most obnoxiously loud vehicles that only are meant to do one thing and that's to make LOTSA noise? It reminds me of when i was a kid and we used to put cards in the spokes of our biks, or tie small balloons to the front forks so that it would sound loud when we road around, I think I outgrew that when I was about 9. . .
W
wyohikeit
Guest
I don't see a need for the loud ones anywhere but it is a free country.
T
TFinalshot
Guest
If it's a free country why can't we camp where we want, call elk, and moose, and harass the wildlife in the Park? What's more important, our joy and happiness, or the animals?
Seems to me that we are splitting hairs, either its harassment and too loud or it's not. If the thing is over the decibel limits at the gate, it should not be allow in. There's lots of ways to see the parks without having to disturb every person and thing there. . . .
Naaana na na naaaa naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa..;-)
Seems to me that we are splitting hairs, either its harassment and too loud or it's not. If the thing is over the decibel limits at the gate, it should not be allow in. There's lots of ways to see the parks without having to disturb every person and thing there. . . .
Naaana na na naaaa naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa..;-)
W
wyohikeit
Guest
I have never noticed any animal being bothered from a noisy vehicle. Those park animals are born and raised with cars going by and airplains flying over.
Time in the hills is always worth more than money
Time in the hills is always worth more than money
T
TFinalshot
Guest
Well, I cant tell you youre wrong, I can only tell you what I know and I'm in the park well over 200 days a year. Now, there is no question that the un muffled bikes are loud. There also is no question that the national park service has decibel limits and the up piped bikes if throttled exceed the limits. So, whether is bothers animals or humans or both, the NPS wrote the rules for a reason. Now, with all the goes on in the parks, it's just a matter of getting tools together to monitor the noise.
Finally, even the AMA does not support the loud noise in places where it is un acceptable, like national parks. . .
Finally, even the AMA does not support the loud noise in places where it is un acceptable, like national parks. . .
LAST EDITED ON Sep-26-06 AT 07:45AM (MST)[p]Go to Rocky Mountain National Park the week before and the week after the Stugis ralley, hike 3 miles from the road and tell me that those stupid-azz, over-compensating, outlaw biker want-a-be, pieces of chrome covered crap don't disturb anything.
Most Harley riders just put on their biker costume to go ride and be noticed by the thousands of other cookie cutter versions of the modern "outlaw" biker that completely disturbs much of the silence in our national parks. Why not just leave the harley t-shirt, bandana, terminator sun glasses and leather costume at home and take the wife's minivan and spend a day enjoying the park without having to spit out 850 bugs splattered in your teeth? Why????? Because daddy didn't hug you enough and you were picked last in kickball!
Last time I was in Yellowstone, the camo covered redneck Realtree crowd outcalled all the bulls near the roads anyways and most elk don't even perk up thier ears at the Primos minions in parks anymore. Its a sight to see some fat-azz, 100 lbs overweight roll out of his turbo diesel(not even turning the rattleing P.O.S. off) and blow spit into his elk call while the bull lays chewing his cud, not even opening his eyes.
Most Harley riders just put on their biker costume to go ride and be noticed by the thousands of other cookie cutter versions of the modern "outlaw" biker that completely disturbs much of the silence in our national parks. Why not just leave the harley t-shirt, bandana, terminator sun glasses and leather costume at home and take the wife's minivan and spend a day enjoying the park without having to spit out 850 bugs splattered in your teeth? Why????? Because daddy didn't hug you enough and you were picked last in kickball!
Last time I was in Yellowstone, the camo covered redneck Realtree crowd outcalled all the bulls near the roads anyways and most elk don't even perk up thier ears at the Primos minions in parks anymore. Its a sight to see some fat-azz, 100 lbs overweight roll out of his turbo diesel(not even turning the rattleing P.O.S. off) and blow spit into his elk call while the bull lays chewing his cud, not even opening his eyes.
By the way, the animals get used to it. Its the rest of us that try to maintain our sanity in a world of instant gratification, over compensating idiots that get pissed at the senseless noise.
"Loud pipes save lives!" Yeh, well so do helmets you oatmeal brained moron but you don't seem to be wearing one of those in your feeble attempt to recreate your version of "Easy Rider."
The only ones happy about the biker crowd besides themselves are the pour souls waiting in line for an organ transplant.
"Loud pipes save lives!" Yeh, well so do helmets you oatmeal brained moron but you don't seem to be wearing one of those in your feeble attempt to recreate your version of "Easy Rider."
The only ones happy about the biker crowd besides themselves are the pour souls waiting in line for an organ transplant.
T
TFinalshot
Guest
LOL - that's funny stuff buck. . .
HunterHarry
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 5,002
He He He }>
Mikey has a way with words don't he!....
HH
Mikey has a way with words don't he!....
HH
SneakAttack
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,404
LAST EDITED ON Sep-26-06 AT 02:30PM (MST)[p]I think we have a few closet wanna-be bikers in the crowd.
Get ear plugs.
Get ear plugs.
T
TFinalshot
Guest
Get law enforcement, a video camera, and a docimeter meter. That's what we're doing. . .
SneakAttack
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,404
Attaboy
T
TFinalshot
Guest
The object of the task is not to give tickes, its to prove to the NPS that there are impacts, there are existing laws on the books and so we will show them what they already know, that way the NPS superviser cant dispute it. . .
C
CUTTHROAT
Guest
Finalshot, if these message boards were a national park, you'd be like the big harley that drives through every minute; making noise and causing trouble.
Now I'm just teasin ya. I love your posts and pictures!
Now I'm just teasin ya. I love your posts and pictures!
