Non-resident thoughts on PP's

[dang302]

I just had to speak and didn't want to get chastised in the other thread.

I am a NM resident and used to be for PP's (because there are many hunts here that I know I will never draw). NM is currently a pointless state and all draw is random. I started playing the points game about 5 years ago in other states. I will keep doing it because my passion is hunting, but its starting to seem like a huge waste of money and I am beginning to appreciate the fact that I at least have a mathematical chance of drawing in NM.

The system in NM works ok because when your name (or number/whatever) is drawn out of the hat, all 3 of your choices are looked at prior to moving on to the next applicant. Therefore: my first choice hunt is the best in the state (with astronomical odds), second choice is a good hunt with better odds (usuall in the range of 5-10:1...still not good), and finally my third choice is a hunt that will not be as good but has good odds (so I have the best chance of recieving a tag).

Another advantage is that I got to put in for 10 different species this year. (it helps that we have the exotics that thrive on public land in drought conditions). I am sure every biologist on the planet would be against it now, but this truely was the best thing to happen to NM hunting in my opinion.

Not too long ago we had over the counter deer tags (you still had to specify which unit though). I see WY going down this road, but maybe not to the same extent, but clearly moving from general to LE.

I do like a bonus point system and I do like always having a chance to draw. The magic system should be simple. If you do go preference point then only 50% of the tags go to the highest point holders and 50% random (this way my hopes are not completely crushed by being 10 or 15 years behind). I would then suggest that those with 20 points get their name in the random draw 20 times and so on. Also NO PURCHASING PREFERENCE POINTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. If you apply and pay the licences fee and don't draw you get a point. Too late for WY here since they are charging additional for these and money seems to be the issue. Points should not be a game, it is simply a way to help us who have not been able to draw for a long time have a better chance of getting a tag.

I also think sitting out a year following the draw of a good tag seems reasonable. Most have suggested long waits though and 5 or 10 years is rediculous (for deer, elk, etc.) Things like sheep, goat, moose should be once in a lifetime since most of us will never get a tag anyway.

NM's premier Oryx, Ibex, and bighorn tags are once in a lifetime. There is even one Elk unit managed for quanity/quality and it is a once in a lifetime hunt. This makes sense to me as these hunts (excluding oryx) have odds over 100:1.

Not sure if any of this makes sense, but in a nutshell I think Im for a system that is 50/50 points/random. I like the idea of Once in a lifetime for extremely difficult to draw species(sheep etc). I will probably never in my life get to hunt sheep in any state. A short wait from applying for holders of high demand deer and elk tags will definately help odds.

 

[440sixpack]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-21-13 AT 03:17PM (MST)[p]

A points system is good for the hunter and great for the state. take my wife and myself for example, because of her max points she drew a late WY elk tag where only 2 NR tags were issued, no luck just points. I have 15 WY sheep points I'm pretty sure I'll be drawn this year, after 37 years in OR with no sheep point system I'm still zip.

In years where our points don't have me thinking we're not going to draw enough tags I apply in NM and Idaho, in years like this where my time is pretty full ID and NM won't see a nickle of my money. all the other states like MT, UT , AZ, NV and CO will get to hose me for fees and licenses even though I'm not even going to attempt to draw a tag.

The only down side is some tags you draw then you might as well forget ever gaining enough points to do it again , but that's ok once is better than never. I am 100% in favor of a NR point system in every state, my preference is the system OR and WY use, next best is NV.















Stay thirsty my friends

 

[elks96]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-21-13 AT 05:35PM (MST)[p]444sixpack your full of crap PP are not good for hunters. Your wife drew atag because she had max points. She will never again have a chance at that tag. She got it one time and will never go again on that tag. She had 7 points to draw. It will surely be a hunt that will crawl all the way up to 20+ just like those tags in CO did. A PP system sucks. It only favors and helps those who got in first and everyone after that is screwed.

I will type more. But I had to type this response...

 

[llamapacker]

There are always those that got in on the ground floor and think the system is great - they finally got their tag! Most recognize they will never get drawn again, however, and lose interest in hunting that species / state again, however, and stop supporting that game department. The converse is true in states without a point system. Every year somebody gets drawn in NM or AK for a great hunt, and it was the first time they applies. There are always exceptions to the statistical average.

Preference point system discourage those not in on the ground floor, particularly new hunters. Point systems are the exact definition of a special interest. The 50/50 system advocated by the OP has been shown to be a disaster in Utah, which follows this 50/50 allocation of most premium tags. A LE elk tags takes nearly 20 years to draw, and it is climbing each year. People continue to try to game the system to get ahead in the points game. For years people put in with "Grandma" to average their points, and though that is now fixed, other shenanigans continue. And nobody starting with zero points today will ever live long enough to reach max point status.

All of these systems are advocated because somebody wants some special treatment or to get in line ahead of others. Totally random is the only fair way to allocate a very limited resource. And you may never draw, or you may draw the first year, or the second. Random is random.

Bill

 

[TOPGUN]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-21-13 AT 04:37PM (MST)[p]As far as 440sixpack, I'd also probably be for the PP system from his standpoint when his wife draws a tag with max PPs that had less than a 10% draw rate and he draws unit 59-1 that offered 1 friggin tag in the regular draw and there were 5 applicants with the max of 7 PPs for a draw rate of 20%. He was definitely correct in one statement he made though. Now they can both go to the back of the line and wait to draw those tags maybe one more time if they're real lucky while they're young enough to even think about hunting!
I hope strang comes on this thread because if he does he's going to get some real chit from a couple folks! The guy tries to make wholesale changes in our NR system as a resident and has the nerve to start a thread asking only for resident comments on a PP system. To top it off he was way off on the way the presenr NR system draw works and has continued to misrepresent it in his blog where he's trying to get support to change the system with his "fair" proposal!

 

[dang302]

To be clear I did not mean this to focus on the Non-resident system, but rather, I wanted to put in my 2 cents about points (overall) as a non-resident.

For what its worth: I always wished NM was a preference point state and now I am beginning to be glad its not. Its ok if it takes me 20 years to draw a great elk tag in AZ etc., because its not my home state...its a once in a lifetime type of hunt. And of course I can useally draw a few tags here in NM.

Llamapacker, you pretty much have me convinced. Too bad I don't plan on staying in NM...I'm moving to a RED state!...and WY is a frontrunner for sure.

 

[Canvsbk]

Only been in the pp game 2 or 3 yeas but it's very clear that when you do draw that max point tag you're done. No chance to live long enough to catch up after that. It is kinda nice to be able to know how many points a tag should take to draw but I always laugh when somebody says they have 18 or 20 or 25 points.
Really?




Semper Fi

 

[elks96]

My vote is again for a random draw with a wait period. But the wait is totally dependent on the odds. A 10% less or chance should require a 10 year wait to get back into that tag odds catagory. However a 50% odds tag is a 1 year wait. If you get the 10% tag you have to wait 2 years to apply for 50% tag, etc. It would step out so that a person is looking at most a 2 year wait to apply again.

 

[Banger]

Personally I like the system that OR and WY have. But my application strategy is probably different from most on MM. I have some spots in WY, CO, and my home state of OR that I like. All of these can be drawn with just a few points, so I can assure myself that I am going on what I consider a good hunt every year.

I agree that points systems don't work too well for the super high demand hunts. But as someone who does not chase those types of tags exclusively the point system works very well for me.

There are lots and lots of good hunts out there that take only a few points,or less, so I am not worried in the slightest about opportunities for my kids. If I thought shooting a 350+ bull, 180+ buck was somehow vitally important to their happiness as future hunters I might be worried, since my easy to draw areas don't have an abundance of those. Personally, I'll take hunting every year for average critters, rather than sitting at home counting my points.

I will say though, that my app strategy works for me only because I am willing to play the game in multiple states. I do feel for Utah residents who have less opportunity for branched bull elk hunting in their home state than most other states residents. But I also think that is the tradeoff of having a high percentage of the UT units managed for quality, whereas OR, CO, etc. have a high percentage managed for opportunity.

B

 

[hangfire]

Here is my penny thoughts on preference points. PP are no good unless you where in it from the start, it puts tags out of reach for any one trying to get into hunting, or any of our youth to draw a good tag. Bonus points on the other hand, I think are good, if the system is set up right. I think Nevada has it right, everyone has a chance of drawing, but the longer you apply the better your odds get.

 

[440sixpack]

So someone who has more points draws and that's wrong? maybe that's because they've been trying longer and paying their dues and in time it pays off. how awful.

Yes it will be almost imposible to draw a high demand tag again and why? because someone who has been trying almost as long is next in line and I won't be able to draw out in front of them. that's fair as hell. I'd rather draw once than never.

The way you get around this is build points in other states, now I'll move on to another state and draw some tags with my points I've been building for years I don't have to draw in WY again right away. when I do it will have to be a lesser quality tag I accept that.

It doesn't matter if you like it or not , points systems are here to stay because hunters like knowing their money buys them an increased chance next year. probably ID and NM will initiate one as well, when they do I'll be in on the ground floor and I'll give them my money every year until I die or draw.






Stay thirsty my friends

 

[PleaseDear]

By the time ya have the 'points' to draw --- who is to say ya would not have drawn with a no points, everybody eqaul draw system?

Plus if ya draw out early like low points or in a new system...it is pretty much a 1 and done hunt as you will never have the max points needed ever again.

Plus you are not stuck with years and years of point fee's ect...before ya draw.

If point systems are so great---how come max points in many states are now at the 19--23 max point pools? Ut/Az./Nv./Colo. ect.

Robb

 

[WVHUNTER]

I just recently retired but when I was working I needed to know at the beginning of the year if I was going to get a tag so I could plan vacation, etc. So the point system was helpful to me.

I hunted region G for mule deer one year and needed points and spent my max elk points on area 7. So I am at the back of the line but I'm still buying points at 61 years old, there may be a hunt I want to do that only takes two or three points (Region G for one).

I like the Wyoming point system better than Colorado with Wyoming having random tags. Now that I'm retired I can just draw for everything.

I have 10 deer points and 10 elk points for Colorado. I think I will get a good deer hunt before it's over but don't expect to get much with the elk points.

 

[440sixpack]

It's all about supply and demand and simple math. that means a few hunters are going to be thrilled when the check their draw status and many will not be. we can argue for days about how it sucks not to be drawn but the simple fact is those who haven't been drawn gain an advantage over newbies and those who have been drawn already when you have a point system. tell me why that's unfair.

Maybe the reason some of you hate the point system is because you're too low on points, maybe it's because you haven't put in for a tag every year since you turned 12 in 1974 and haven't drawn and maybe never will.


The reason some states have a max point pool with a high number of points is again simple math, far more hunters than tags. this isn't rocket science.








Stay thirsty my friends

 

[JRABQ]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-22-13 AT 09:25AM (MST)[p]Over the past 10-15 years (and after paying many thousands of dollars) I have lost a lot of enthusiasm for points, particularly pref pts. In some situations PPs work fine, such as when the demand to supply ratio is relatively small (3-10). In those cases it seems "fair" as the pool of hunters will cycle through in a reasonable time.

But when the pool of hunters is too large(almost all OIL tags and many trophy deer and elk hunts) and the cycle time is 50+ years (in some cases ~1000 years) it is definitely not fair to younger hunters and those who did not get in on the ground floor.

So a lot of tinkering is often done with splitting tags between pure PP and random draw (or bonus pt draw), and everyone has an opinion on which is better, or what is the correct split. Or should we square bonus points, etc. etc.

It gets tiresome keeping track of all this crap, as time goes by I have begun to appreciate the simplicity of the pure random draw we have in NM, I hope we can keep it. Bonus points wouldn't be too bad, but the systems always get tinkered with and often converted into some type of hybrid system.

 

[llamapacker]

Almost all the preference points systems have been tinkered with over time, and some eliminated altogether, although that was quite a few years ago now.
Thinking it is "fair" to get an advantage for being unsuccessful in the past really turns the word "fair" on its head. Gaining an advantage is not "fair", by definition. I don't seem to get any advantage for playing the lottery, and not winning. Vegas never gives me better odds of winning just because I've lost before.

A truly random draw each year is the definition of fairness.

I have played the points game longer than most. As much as I have despised the systems, I realized early on that I had to pay to play. I currently have 22 elk points in CO. I planned to draw a RFW tag until they took them out of the non-resident draw. I would be pissed if they eliminated their points after all these years. But it is better for everyone if they would do so. (But not for me, at least at first.) I've drawn some great tags in multiple states. I've drawn just as many great tags in states without preference points. I apply for almost 30 tags each year, and surprise, surprise, don't draw most of them. But I do draw a couple each year. I've studied the systems extensively, and recognize the corrosive effects that points have on hunters and hunter recruitment. Unless you are in on the ground floor you are totally hosed. And most people that do draw a premier tag couldn't care less about anything but getting their turn to take a "trophy" animal, that they somehow "deserve" for waiting so long to draw the tag. It is not about the hunt anymore, or the special opportunity, but the pressure to get their once in a lifetime trophy, no matter what it takes. These systems aren't good for hunters and hunting, and are always being monkeyed with to try to give some group an advantage.

Pure random draw is the simplest, most effective way to allocate an extremely rare resource. In the case of tags which are plentiful enough to turn over the entire pool of applicants in less than 5 years, I have no problem with the systems. But few states have such a system, and they are not the focus of most interested in preference points.
Bill

 

[440sixpack]

What is fair about a 12 year old kid drawing his first try and a 70 year old guy who's applied since he was 12 never drawing the tag? when you're a kid you have time to wait , the old guy doesn't. the points system helps fix this and with the exception of CO the kid still has some chance at drawing. we spend time and money for about everything we earn in life, it took me 30 years to draw my first high demand tag since I stated hunting at 12. I consider it paying my dues I wasn't entitled to anything.


By the way, the points system is not going away end of story so this debate is pretty much a waste of time. the states who have a point system bring in way too much money for way too little effort to ever abolish them.
















Stay thirsty my friends

 

[DoeNob]

That implies that you "deserve" and opportunity at a limit resource, simply because you are old. You don't.


You know the perfect system that would make it more about hunting than horn porn? You put in for a tag by species, then you get ASSIGNED a unit by random draw. You wanna go deer hunting or not is all you can decide. That would eliminate a lot of this BS, be completely fair to everyone, and be good for the wildlife also.

 

[DoeNob]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-22-13 AT 12:42PM (MST)[p]The other fair system would be to let the market set the tag prices, that way the unit is getting the maximum revenue for species. The more applicants, the higher the tag price until you reach equilibrium. The wildlife gets the amount of money its worth, we get the maximum return on a public resource. You hunt the quality of units you can afford. Top tier unit tags would be worth 10's of thousands of dollars, most of the mid range tags would be worth less than we pay now, the off the radar units would be substantially cheaper than we get fleeced for now.

If you think that's unfair then you can whine about how life's not fair like a 3 year old kid. Either one is "fair" in that no one has a special advantage because of something outside their control.

 

[DnkyPunch]

I like being able to use the point systems to be able to find hunts I can draw each year now that I've been in for a few years. I've drawn LE units that I shouldn't have and know others that have drawn premium AZ units with 0 points.

I do wonder what it would be like if we just cut out the points only options and really had everyone just apply to keep the points creep from being so bad. How much would it help reduce the time to draw a tag?
I take advantage of the option like most of you and get points for stuff for future hunts since I've already bought the licenses for draws in several states so why not?
Tough choice here as there's not really a right or wrong answer. I like to throw my hat in the ring for ID and NM when I don't think I'll draw something as part of my "plan B" strategy. There's always a tag somewhere if you look hard enough even if it's not a dream tag I still like to get out and hunt.

 

[cabuck]

I have to agree with 440, that's a first. If you would like to hunt every year put in for Id and buy a tag over the counter for deer and elk. Play the point game in other states as a way to supplement your hunting activities then prioritize your hunts after the draws. IMO Nv has the best draw system and it's not even close. NM the bleakest only because of the way they discriminate against DIY non-res. hunters. Oregon is also pretty crappy but I was lucky enough to draw a Ca. Bighorn tag in 2010.
Remember 30 years ago nobody had a points system, it is here to stay. Very easy money for the F&G Depts.
Some of my best hunts and most successful have been on "no point draw hunts". Nm Ibex hunt and Oryx hunt. Oregon sheep hunt. Id mule deer hunt and elk hunt. Alaska sheep hunt. California pronghorn hunt.
Points don't translate to a quality hunt, that's up to the hunter. With all that said, I am the proud owner of 17 nv elk points, 19 Az elk and max. for deer, max. for Wy sheep, deer, and elk, 16 for everything in Oregon to name a few.
Good luck to all in whatever draws you apply for and enjoy the hunt. There will not be another 2013 season so get out there.

 

[DnkyPunch]

Sometimes lots of points = lots of pressure to bang a big one. One of my buddies struggles with that and lets it affect his hunts.

Cabuck - you've got some primo hunts in the very near future with all those points. Good luck!

 

[Zeke]

I've stayed out of the "points" discussion but I'll throw in my 2 cents:

I must be the worlds most unlucky person because I made application in several States for DECADES without drawing but a couple mediocre tags.

Since using bonus points (along with my long-standing habit of constant application) I've drawn several premium tags and will do the same in the next decade or so.

Words are used like "fair" "deserve" "lottery" "random" "advantage" etc like it's some kind of moral issue. It's nothing more than another way to get a tag...... and it has worked and will continue to work for me. You might have to change areas or even States to maximize your "points" but it can work just fine and you can have some great hunts.

REMEMBER THIS; NOT EVERYONE WILL GET A SHEEP TAG, EVER, REGARDLESS OF THE SYSTEM! SOME OF YOU GUYS THINK RANDOM IS THE ANSWER TO GET A TAG BUT DEMAND OUT-STRIPS SUPPLY BY 100+ FOLD!

Wyo, Ut, Co, Nv have all been good to me over the past 15+ years and it looks like it will continue.... with points! I also like to be rewarded (advantage) for constant and long-term application.

I also respect YOUR opinions and have no problem if you see things differently.

Respectfully,
Zeke

 

[nripepi]

I am definitely a fan of preference points as a non-resident. It allows me to plan my hunts in advance, plan my vacation, plan with state to hunt...but there is definitely a draw back on the very limited tags in that if you don't get in on the ground floor, it is very very tough to draw those "once in a lifetime tags".

When people use the reason they don't want points because it is not fair to youths, I think long and hard about it as I have 3 young boys who I hope will be interested in being a part of these hunts in the near future. I am not worried at all about them not getting a chance to hunt that "once-in-a-lifetime" tag. With just a couple of points in WY, they can hunt some very good elk units, great antelope units and good deer units (G and H). Heck, it might be a blessing in disguise that they are not waiting 20 years to draw that one tag and we can just go hunting in good units. They don't need a 350 bull or a 200 inch muley or an 85 inch goat, a shot at a 280-300 6X6 should thrill all youths and most anybody out there hunting and that can definitely be had with 2 points in Wyoming.

This could change over time as people cycle through the system, but it sure looks like these mid-quality tags are easier to draw now as a pile of hunters are stuck chasing the top end tags.

 

[forkhunter]

My 2 cents. Take or leave it.

I think some of the problems with preference points come when there are also over the counter tags. Example is here in OR. Tons of guys apply for a mule deer tag and don't worry about getting it because they can always hunt blacktail on the west side. I don't blame them, but I do think this contributes to point creep here. If the entire state was draw, I think some folks would be less likely to hang onto their points and the point creep would be marginalized a little. I am not proposing this should happen, I just think it is an issue that arises in many states.

I, For one, like bonus point systems. They allow increased chances to draw tags for those who have been at it longer, but still opportunity for others. NV system comes to mind. I also think, though, that there should be a short waiting period after drawing a tag if the demand is high in that state.

 

[dang302]

In summary, from what I have read above it seems that:

Points are good for those who can apply and collect points in all western states.

Points are bad for residents who only hunt/apply in their own state.

 

[Zeke]

All Western States??? NO but more the merrier regardless of the drawing method.

I have a cousin who everyone thinks is lucky at the draws. Maybe he is but he's ultra dedicated and applies for as many things as he can.... EVERY YEAR. Like anything else, you make a certain part of your own luck.

I have not and don't apply in all western Stated... more like 1 or 2 at a time, maybe 3 maximum, other than my home State. Points seem to be working for me.

Zeke