Panguitch Utah Doe Hunt

>
>I just received the 1962
>Big Game Harvest Report from
>a GRAMA request and there
>were a total of 130,556
>deer killed that year and
>that's a lot of deer,
>in fact the 2nd highest
>ever. BUT, 55,092 (43.2%) of
>them were does!! So even
>then it was necessary to
>kill does to save the
>habitat in 42 of the
>62 (Yes, 62!) units.
>

Oops! 67 units! (I caught it too late to edit.)
I guess we still have a long way to go to get back to where we belong.
 
>Oops! 67 units! (I caught it
>too late to edit.)
>I guess we still have a
>long way to go to
>get back to where we
>belong.

It gets even better! (or worse.) If you count all the A,B,C,D sections of the unit, which they do with the harvest numbers, you have 82 units. We're just getting started, folks. :)
 
WE NEED TO LOOK AT THIS THROUGH THE PRETTY BROWN EYES OF THE INNOCENT DOE.

GET IN A HORSE TRAILER??? OR TAKE A BULLET????

I'M IN THE TRAILER!!!!!
 
>The trailer is the way, good
>job 338boy.


Now I'm really going to go out here on an intellectual limb and just put this to a test....someone correct me if I'm being honestly stupid here....there is no way in hell you can eat the bottom of a trailer and survive. But it doesn't matter because I'm pretty sure tomorrow there will be 150 tags available for unit 28's depredation doe hunt in order to give the winter range discussed here some relief as those who have actually set foot there have discussed. Have a nice evening, gentlemen.
 
I know a place where there is no deer. Great winter range. No deer use. We'll take em for free! DWR DON't know why there are no deer there. Chest high sage? Brushy from the ground up ,thousands of acres.


MANY MANY UNITS BELOW OBJECTIVE AND WE'RE KILLING DOES?

IF THEIR CURRENT RANGE CAN'T HANDLE THEM , OURS CAN!!!!!!

WHEN WAS THE DWR RIGHT ABOUT MULE DEER??????

WHEN WILL THEY TELL THE TRUTH?????

I'M GOING TO PUT EVERYONE IN OUR FAMILY IN FOR THEM THERE DOE TAGS? THEN WE WILL BURN THE TAGS!

ELECTION YEAR'!!!!!!!

WE'LL BURN THEM BEFORE THE ELECTION!

INVITE YOUR SENATORS AND HOUSE REPS!!

THEY'LL LOVE THE FREE PRESS'!!!!

WHO'LL JOIN ME IN A TAG BURNING PROTEST AT THE CAPITOL??????

WE CAN GET ENOUGH GUYS TO DRAW TAGS AND THEN WE'LL MAKE A STATEMENT TO THE GOVERNOR AT THE CAPITOL'!!!!!

MOVE THEM ,OR DRAW THE TAGS AND BURN THEM!!!!

YOU CARE ABOUT MULE DEER? PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!


WHO'S IN?????
 
>I know a place where there
>is no deer. Great winter
>range. No deer use. We'll
>take em for free! DWR
>DON't know why there are
>no deer there. Chest high
>sage? Brushy from the ground
>up ,thousands of acres.
>
>
>MANY MANY UNITS BELOW OBJECTIVE AND
>WE'RE KILLING DOES?
>
>IF THEIR CURRENT RANGE CAN'T HANDLE
>THEM , OURS CAN!!!!!!
>
>WHEN WAS THE DWR RIGHT ABOUT
>MULE DEER??????
>
>WHEN WILL THEY TELL THE TRUTH?????
>
>
>I'M GOING TO PUT EVERYONE IN
>OUR FAMILY IN FOR THEM
>THERE DOE TAGS? THEN WE
>WILL BURN THE TAGS!
>
>ELECTION YEAR'!!!!!!!
>
>WE'LL BURN THEM BEFORE THE ELECTION!
>
>
>INVITE YOUR SENATORS AND HOUSE REPS!!
>
>
>THEY'LL LOVE THE FREE PRESS'!!!!
>
>WHO'LL JOIN ME IN A TAG
>BURNING PROTEST AT THE CAPITOL??????
>
>
>WE CAN GET ENOUGH GUYS TO
>DRAW TAGS AND THEN WE'LL
>MAKE A STATEMENT TO THE
>GOVERNOR AT THE CAPITOL'!!!!!
>
>MOVE THEM ,OR DRAW THE TAGS
>AND BURN THEM!!!!
>
>YOU CARE ABOUT MULE DEER? PROVE
>IT!!!!!!!!!
>
>
>WHO'S IN?????


THIS is the most ridiculous and irresponsible post by anyone I've seen on this site, EVER! I've been patient to explain this to you. YOU are not an educated habitat or wildlife biologist and are not qualified to make this statement. YOU have not spent any time with anyone QUALIFIED to make the decision on what is best for these deer on this unit yet you think putting in for these deer and then burning the tags is going to help ruin a unit that depends on a habitat you know NOTHING about. Your statement that there is a place with chest high sage and "DWR don't know why" there aren't deer there is a clear display of your ignorance on this matter. The fact that you type in all caps to make your point is another. DWR would never sign a COR to allow you to move a field mouse off this unit especially if you did something as stupid as you're claiming to do with a tag burn. Regardless, there are always methods of increasing depredation tags if not enough mouths are removed so burn away genius. Roll something good up inside them. Might as well.
 
>I'm in 338boy


I'm now convinced......you two are brothers from the same cousin. I've always thought the RAC's could use the occasional comedy act to break things up. Will you travel to all of them and pitch this great and marvelous idea and how to pay for it? I want front row tickets! THIS is actually going to be great!
 
I have honestly felt the same about you KLBZdad, wow how someone can really think killing these doe will help the herd. WAKE up why are other deer wintering in areas that the feed is up to their necks, come on if the deer are dumb enough to eat dirt, don't shoot them, they will die on their own. Quit making excuses so you can have a tag every year or justify killing does. I have listened to people say to many bucks wont increase the deer herd but now you are saying less deer will increase the deer herd, I know you are going to say just in this unit, well less is still less no matter how you look at it.
 
klbzdad--Don't waste any more time typing, you have done a great job explaining the situation. Those that don't get it never will, they have other adgenda's to cook!
 
LAST EDITED ON May-03-12 AT 08:54AM (MST)[p]>I have honestly felt the same
>about you KLBZdad, wow how
>someone can really think killing
>these doe will help the
>herd. WAKE up why
>are other deer wintering in
>areas that the feed is
>up to their necks, come
>on if the deer are
>dumb enough to eat dirt,
>don't shoot them, they will
>die on their own.
>Quit making excuses so you
>can have a tag every
>year or justify killing does.
> I have listened to
>people say to many bucks
>wont increase the deer herd
>but now you are saying
>less deer will increase the
>deer herd, I know you
>are going to say just
>in this unit, well less
>is still less no matter
>how you look at it.
>

Until you visit the range, until you talk to a biologist IN PERSON and not second hand, until you go off more than emotion and NOT your opinion (I will not be putting in for these tags as I would hope more youth get to have them, thanks), and until you offer a substantively more workable and feasible solution then think what you want. BUCKS DON'T GIVE BIRTH! In fact, if you want to decrease deer population, INCREASE the buck population while does and fawns die because they have to compete with them due to poor or now winter forage! www.muledeerworkinggroup.com . I'm not going to extrapolate the actual DATA from the HOURS of actual FIELD STUDY done by the most qualified biologists in North America on mule deer for you. You can do the reading yourself. Enjoy....
 
kDAD, YOU MUST OF GOT YOUR phd THE SAME PLACE THE dwr GOT THEIRS.

I WATCHED THE DOE SLAUGHTERS IN THE 80's EARLY 90's
I WENT ON FIELD TRIPS TO SEE THE dwr AND blm COUNT DEER PELLITS.

30,000 DOE TAGS IN UTAH A YEAR AFTER FIELD TRIPS!

WAS AT THE FIRST rac MEETING IN MY REGION!
ATTENDED 100's OF RAC MEETINGS STATEWIDE!

SERVED AS A SPORSTMENS REP 8 YEARS ON THE rac!

ATTENDED MY rac THE WEEK MY SISTER DIED!

CHAIRED OUR rac 4 YEARS!

ATTENDED AND REPRESENTED OUR REGION AT THE WILDLIFE BOARD MEETINGS 4 YEARS!

DROVE 3 HRS EACH WAY FOR 4 YEARS!

I'VE SEEN THE dwr IN ACTION !

NEVER SEEN THEM SUCCEED WHEN IT COMES TO MULE DEER.

GOT INVOLVED IN WILDLIFE GROUPS 25 YEARS AGO FOR 1 REASON!

FIX THE DEER HERD!

I DON'T GIVE A SHIZ ABOUT TROPHY HUNTING!

I WANT YOU PEOPLE WITH phd'S TO TELL US WHY 75 PERCENT OF THE FAWNS BORN EACH SPRING DIE!

WE WERE TOLD IN THE 80'S BY THE dwr AND blm TOO MUCH DEER SHIZ IN THE WINTER RANGE!

KILLED OFF THE HERD!

NEVER RECOVERD!

LATER THE dwr QUIT DOING PELLET COUNTS!

SAID IT WASN'T RELIABLY!

NO SHIZ!

HERD GONE!

HAS NEVER RECOVERD!

DOWN HILL SINCE!

I'VE READ YOUR POSTS!

there may be areas where habitat needs a rest. dwr says deer don't transplant well. maybe they do it wrong. they transplant everything else!

i ain't drinking their kool-aid no more.
you must a drunk my dose!

YOU CAN QUESTION WHAT I KNOW IF YOU WANT!

I'M OK WITH MY PENIS SIZE!

KEEP DOING THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER FOR 35 YEARS AND EXPECT A DIFFRENT RESULT!

WHO'S THE INSANE ONE!
 
>klbzdad--Don't waste any more time typing,
>you have done a great
>job explaining the situation.
>Those that don't get it
>never will, they have other
>adgenda's to cook!


Thank you, you're right...time for some fishing out of my bathtub since them damn dumb DWR biologists shutted down the Mammoth Fishery I had to load all them dumb tiger trout into my flatbed and my sister wife wants me to catch em out of the hot tub so she can do lawndrie. Gawl dern it! LOL

elkfromabove has done a far better job explaining the science of it all. There's really nothing he can't figure out if you want to know something so it will be interesting to hear about how past management strategies could benefit us now with the new micro unit plan. Oh, and I hate Mexican Wolves:)
 
>kDAD, YOU MUST OF GOT YOUR
>phd THE SAME PLACE THE
>dwr GOT THEIRS.
>
>I WATCHED THE DOE SLAUGHTERS IN
>THE 80's EARLY 90's
>I WENT ON FIELD TRIPS TO
>SEE THE dwr AND blm
>COUNT DEER PELLITS.
>
>30,000 DOE TAGS IN UTAH A
>YEAR AFTER FIELD TRIPS!
>
>WAS AT THE FIRST rac MEETING
>IN MY REGION!
>ATTENDED 100's OF RAC MEETINGS STATEWIDE!
>
>
>SERVED AS A SPORSTMENS REP 8
>YEARS ON THE rac!
>
>ATTENDED MY rac THE WEEK MY
>SISTER DIED!
>
>CHAIRED OUR rac 4 YEARS!
>
>ATTENDED AND REPRESENTED OUR REGION AT
>THE WILDLIFE BOARD MEETINGS 4
>YEARS!
>
>DROVE 3 HRS EACH WAY FOR
>4 YEARS!
>
>I'VE SEEN THE dwr IN ACTION
>!
>
>NEVER SEEN THEM SUCCEED WHEN IT
>COMES TO MULE DEER.
>
>GOT INVOLVED IN WILDLIFE GROUPS 25
>YEARS AGO FOR 1 REASON!
>
>
>FIX THE DEER HERD!
>
>I DON'T GIVE A SHIZ ABOUT
>TROPHY HUNTING!
>
>I WANT YOU PEOPLE WITH phd'S
>TO TELL US WHY 75
>PERCENT OF THE FAWNS BORN
>EACH SPRING DIE!
>
>WE WERE TOLD IN THE 80'S
>BY THE dwr AND blm
>TOO MUCH DEER SHIZ IN
>THE WINTER RANGE!
>
>KILLED OFF THE HERD!
>
>NEVER RECOVERD!
>
>LATER THE dwr QUIT DOING PELLET
>COUNTS!
>
>SAID IT WASN'T RELIABLY!
>
>NO SHIZ!
>
>HERD GONE!
>
>HAS NEVER RECOVERD!
>
>DOWN HILL SINCE!
>
>I'VE READ YOUR POSTS!
>
>there may be areas where habitat
>needs a rest. dwr says
>deer don't transplant well. maybe
>they do it wrong. they
>transplant everything else!
>
>i ain't drinking their kool-aid no
>more.
>you must a drunk my dose!
>
>
>YOU CAN QUESTION WHAT I KNOW
>IF YOU WANT!
>
>I'M OK WITH MY PENIS SIZE!
>
>
>KEEP DOING THE SAME THING OVER
>AND OVER FOR 35 YEARS
>AND EXPECT A DIFFRENT RESULT!
>
>
>WHO'S THE INSANE ONE!

How long has the overall population in Utah been going to crap? And the time period correlates with the involvement of what specific special interest group? And during that length of time how many promises have been made that remain undelivered?

I don't blame DWR, they have to play politics. They are a bureaucratic beast of a system that has to answer to special interest of the most testosterone driven kind on earth and they do a fine job of keeping the peace in that regard. It is part of their survival plan. The survival plan of the special interest group that falls under the questions above has a business model of first vilifying the division to make itself relevant and necessary out of fear and on the coat tails of apathy. That is a failed model and sportsmen are on to that failed model. So, its worth repeating, Who's the insane one? No need to answer...I'm done here. Good luck in the draw and have a great day!
 
DEER POPULATIONS WERE DECLINING LONG BEFORE SPECIAL GROUPS!

THAT DOG WON'T HUNT !

SPORTSMEN MARCHED AT THE CAPITOL WHEN THE dwr FAILED TO DO THEIR JOB!

BECAUSE THEY FAILED, WE LOST HUNTERS!

THEY DROVE HUNTERS AWAY BECAUSE OF THEIR FAILURES!

dwr SAID IT WAS HABITAT!

YOU GROUPS HELP FUND PROJECTS AND THE DEER WILL RETURN!

THE GROUPS DRANK THE KOOL-AID!

HELPED DO AS THE dwr DIRECTED!

NO RESULTS!

20 YEARS OF HABITAT WORK,THOUSANDS OF ACRES, MILLIONS OF DOLLARS,
DEER DECLINING!

1 QUESTION?

WHY AREN'T FAWNS LIVING LONG ENOUGH TO MAKE IT TO THE WINTER RANGE?

LOOK AT NOVEMBER FAWN/ DOE RATIOS AS DEER ARRIVE ON THE WINTER RANGE!

75% OF THE FAWNS DIE BEFORE THEY CAN GET TO THE WINTER RANGE!

WHY!
 
>DEER POPULATIONS WERE DECLINING LONG BEFORE
>SPECIAL GROUPS!
>
>THAT DOG WON'T HUNT !
>
>SPORTSMEN MARCHED AT THE CAPITOL WHEN
>THE dwr FAILED TO DO
>THEIR JOB!
>
>BECAUSE THEY FAILED, WE LOST HUNTERS!
>
>
>THEY DROVE HUNTERS AWAY BECAUSE OF
>THEIR FAILURES!
>
>dwr SAID IT WAS HABITAT!
>
>YOU GROUPS HELP FUND PROJECTS AND
>THE DEER WILL RETURN!
>
>THE GROUPS DRANK THE KOOL-AID!
>
>HELPED DO AS THE dwr DIRECTED!
>
>
>NO RESULTS!
>
>20 YEARS OF HABITAT WORK,THOUSANDS OF
>ACRES, MILLIONS OF DOLLARS,
>DEER DECLINING!
>
>1 QUESTION?
>
>WHY AREN'T FAWNS LIVING LONG ENOUGH
>TO MAKE IT TO THE
>WINTER RANGE?
>
>LOOK AT NOVEMBER FAWN/ DOE RATIOS
>AS DEER ARRIVE ON THE
>WINTER RANGE!
>
>75% OF THE FAWNS DIE BEFORE
>THEY CAN GET TO THE
>WINTER RANGE!
>
>WHY!

Because they're getting on a bus and trans-locating. How can you be critical of DWR and then use their counts to make your point? I absolutely support what SFW stands for, but I don't support the drum call to order of DP so you can't sell that BS to me about marching to the steps of the capital to fix what DWR was screwing up. ALL WESTERN STATES suffered the same issues with their mule deer because of liberal special interests and their hands in the way mule deer habitat was managed. That began the downfall of the overall population trend in all states. THEN the clean up began. I applaud anyone who contributes in any substantial fashion to help mule deer past, present, and future. But I'm not going to waste my time living in someone else's mire of discontent and dissatisfaction with the way DWR USED to be managed or how how bad the habitat USED to be managed. I'm interested in NOW forward so anytime someone gripes about the DWR its because they have some kind of personal and emotional issue with them. I gave you a link. That like focuses THE BEST MINDS ON MULE DEER IN THE WORLD and the BEST INFORMATION IN THE WORLD on mule deer including winter habitat. I can't wear this camo duct tape anymore, I'm going to go ahead and let my head explode now. You have a great day!
 
KLBZDAD,
Your ideas are a little out there. On one hand you will say that you have never seen so many twin fawns than what you have seen this year on unit 28. Then you turn around and say that we need to kill does because there is not enough habitat. Makes no sense at the end of the day does will only have twin fawns if the conditions are prime. That includes both winter and summer. They will not have twins if there is not enough feed. END OF STORY.

You and elk whatever are pretty excitable guys but you eat up what anyone tells you. Do some research outside of the state of Utah. No need to go off whatever Anis tells you. Also just because Jason feels that we need to have a doe hunt does not mean that is a unanimous feeling in the S. Utah area among the Biologist/DWR officials.

This hunt is a joke and there is ample feed. Your biggest issue like I mentioned before is that Jason and the other biologist working on this project believe that 80% of the deer from unit 28 winter in this area. That is false. No need for a boiology degree to understand that. This post that you guys keep draggin on is getting old. You are part of the minority that feels that we need to kill deer in this area.

On this unit the areas that have been heavily fed are areas by water. You would be bettter served to introduce some guzzlers than just kill the deer. There are plenty of canyons and pockets that are not fed off on this winter range. If you put guzzlers in these areas you could spread the deer out and not have them concentrate in cetain areas.

Killing does(POTENTIAL MOTHERS TO FAWNS) should be a last resort and we should turn to this when EVERYTHING else has failed.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-03-12 AT 04:00PM (MST)[p]>KLBZDAD,
>
> Your ideas are a
>little out there. On one
>hand you will say that
>you have never seen so
>many twin fawns than what
>you have seen this year
>on unit 28. Then you
>turn around and say that
>we need to kill does
>because there is not enough
>habitat. Makes no sense at
>the end of the day
>does will only have twin
>fawns if the conditions are
>prime. That includes both winter
>and summer. They will not
>have twins if there is
>not enough feed. END OF
>STORY.
>
>You and elk whatever are pretty
>excitable guys but you eat
>up what anyone tells you.
>Do some research outside of
>the state of Utah. No
>need to go off whatever
>Anis tells you. Also just
>because Jason feels that we
>need to have a doe
>hunt does not mean that
>is a unanimous feeling in
>the S. Utah area among
>the Biologist/DWR officials.
>
>This hunt is a joke and
>there is ample feed. Your
>biggest issue like I mentioned
>before is that Jason and
>the other biologist working on
>this project believe that 80%
>of the deer from unit
>28 winter in this area.
>That is false. No need
>for a boiology degree to
>understand that. This post that
>you guys keep draggin on
>is getting old. You are
>part of the minority that
>feels that we need to
>kill deer in this area.
>
>
>On this unit the areas that
>have been heavily fed are
>areas by water. You would
>be bettter served to introduce
>some guzzlers than just kill
>the deer. There are plenty
>of canyons and pockets that
>are not fed off on
>this winter range. If you
>put guzzlers in these areas
>you could spread the deer
>out and not have them
>concentrate in cetain areas.
>
>Killing does(POTENTIAL MOTHERS TO FAWNS) should
>be a last resort and
>we should turn to this
>when EVERYTHING else has failed.
>
>
>

Its not just DWR. Its not just me or "elk whatever" and the minority are those who cry foul about taking animals who haven't been out there to see what is really going on. Guzzlers always seem to be the answer to habitat issues. "Pop in a guzzler and the sum bitches scatter!" They definitely have their place and you're right, that is a reason they concentrate along this winter range and why we can't just move them to a new place with a bus ticket and some happy pills. Jason isn't my only source on this and neither is Gary. The BLM isn't the only person I've talked to. There was an NRCS person on the range ride with us but I decided that I needed to know more for myself so I had a long discussion with a person about range conditions who had no idea I was concerned about mule deer forage and in the end, he used them on his own as an example and concurred that the range will degrade from its current state unless there is some relief. Animals don't get nutrition from water and there efforts to establish brush forage on this winter range haven't be successful as you could tell if you'd make that trip. Its not that the BLM, Forest Service, and even the DWR haven't tried to work on the habitat its that the habitat itself cannot replenish its own resources when its being over used.

So explain to me how, if you have one cup of rice, and to feed ten people, you need exactly that one cup, but out of those ten people comes two sets of twins making it fourteen people the next time around and a stranger comes into the picture making it and even fifteen mouths to feed but you've still only got one cup of rice with 50% more mouths to feed, is it "out there" to need to remove mouths from the equation so as not to starve everyone? I tried to make it simple enough to understand. There are lots of twins this year because of less snow, so more fawns are coming back and on average that means half of them will be does and half of them will be bucks. We may need to take more animals next year than this year. Its simple math and nothing extreme or "out there" about it. Quality Deer Management as they do routinely with deer back East (yes, I know they are white tails but like white tails, mule deer are concentrated during winter months) in order to maximize nutrition and benefit of winter range, you have to manage the number of does that utilize your winter range. Again, this isn't Utah stuff either, www.muledeerworkinggroup.com has THE BEST MINDS ON MULE DEER IN THE WORLD! Much smarter than any of us combined. Email one of them and get them to read this thread. I'm clearly a doe killing idiot (even though I've never taken a female of any species except cow elk.....people don't get pissed off about them though) who just wants a tag to shoot something (even though I probably have shot more coyotes this year alone that those giving me grief have in their lifetime).

Excitable, yeah.....just cause I get a kick out of the fact that it such a non issue and smart management but people are coming unglued about it. Some of you better check your emails for your BGF newsletters! SFW has committed to move 100 of them so there may only be 50 tags to worry about! Good grief....
 
The deer scatter with a guzzler? What are you talking about. You see them scatter on the strip where there are guzzlers everywhere? NOPE

I make the trip to this area every year for the past 15 years. I have been on the range more than the biologist. Don't need to go on your little field trip so that I can be as smart as the field trippers. Never said that animals get nutrition from water but they have to have water to sustain life. They are heavily concentrated around water because they have to have it. That is why the forage is so poor around these areas. Spread the animals out with guzzlers along this range and you will have more feed year over year. You will also be able to maintain a larger herd.

Really there is lots of twins this year because of less snow. REALLY? How the hell did the animal know that it was going to be a low snow year in December/January. Can they tell weather now?
They are having twins because they are very healthy and can feed twins. Go ahead and try and spin it any way that you want but at the end of the day the deer can't tell how much snow will be on the ground and they wont have twins if they are in bad health and don't have enough to eat.

The best minds in Mule Deer wont kill does on a herd that is below capacity levels. You said it does have fawns and if you kill the mothers you don't have fawns. So go ahead and kill the mothers out of being stubborn.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-03-12 AT 04:58PM (MST)[p]>The deer scatter with a guzzler?
>What are you talking about.
>You see them scatter on
>the strip where there are
>guzzlers everywhere? NOPE
>
>I make the trip to this
>area every year for the
>past 15 years. I have
>been on the range more
>than the biologist. Don't need
>to go on your little
>field trip so that I
>can be as smart as
>the field trippers. Never said
>that animals get nutrition from
>water but they have to
>have water to sustain life.
>They are heavily concentrated around
>water because they have to
>have it. That is why
>the forage is so poor
>around these areas. Spread the
>animals out with guzzlers along
>this range and you will
>have more feed year over
>year. You will also be
>able to maintain a larger
>herd.
>
>Really there is lots of twins
>this year because of less
>snow. REALLY? How the hell
>did the animal know that
>it was going to be
>a low snow year in
>December/January. Can they tell weather
>now?
>They are having twins because they
>are very healthy and can
>feed twins. Go ahead and
>try and spin it any
>way that you want but
>at the end of the
>day the deer can't tell
>how much snow will be
>on the ground and they
>wont have twins if they
>are in bad health and
>don't have enough to eat.
>
>
>The best minds in Mule Deer
>wont kill does on a
>herd that is below capacity
>levels. You said it does
>have fawns and if you
>kill the mothers you don't
>have fawns. So go ahead
>and kill the mothers out
>of being stubborn.


Put in a guzzler in on this range and then the deer won't concentrate....so that means is, what you're telling me they're going to do is, they'll.....wait for it, WAIT FOR IT......scatter? I like guzzlers.....have many trail cameras on them right now.

Predictive insemination.....that's new. I'll let you find it but there's actual science that proves mule deer does are predisposed to conceive twins regardless of the conditions by which they are conceived in. If the conditions are poor enough to the detriment of the animals health the animals will not go into estrus. Don't take my word for it. The science is out there, go get it.

The best minds in Mule Deer will kill does on unit 28 because it is above capacity and above objective. There's tons of support at that website. I suppose its easier telling someone they're an idiot than maybe even trying to see why they think the way they do. You have a nice day.
 
KLBZDAD,
Interesting you can't have a conversation without calling someone an idiot. My suggestion is to understand why others think the way they do because they may have more knowledge than you do. Better off doing that than acting like a little kid.
Like I said before I believe that we should kill does as a last resort. There is lots of things that we can try before we just go hammer does. I saw a doe hunt on this unit two years ago. Guy pulls up with a 50 Cal. finds a herd of does and then backs out to 1,000 yards in his truck. He then proceeds to try and shoot the doe in the head. When he finally kills the doe he then lets his buddy that also has a tag use his gun to shoot a doe. Real effective game managment.
KLBZDAD your links to studies are to studies that were done decades ago. Things have changed. I tend to believe that we can become better by trial and error. Just becasue they transplanted deer in 1985 with a low success margin does not mean that will be the case in 2012.
Couple Serious question for you. Do you hunt Mule Deer outside of Utah? Do you hunt mule deer outside of S. Utah? I am just trying to gain a better perspective of why you think the way you do.
 
>KLBZDAD,
>
> Interesting you can't have
>a conversation without calling someone
>an idiot.

I didn't call anyone an idiot anywhere. Read the thread, it appears that I'm the idiot even though science, research, biology, and now the wildlife board is right in line with what we've talked about here.

>My suggestion is
>to understand why others think
>the way they do because
>they may have more knowledge
>than you do. Better off
>doing that than acting like
>a little kid.
>
>Like I said
>before I believe that we
>should kill does as a
>last resort. There is lots
>of things that we can
>try before we just go
>hammer does. I saw a
>doe hunt on this unit
>two years ago. Guy pulls
>up with a 50 Cal.
>finds a herd of does
>and then backs out to
>1,000 yards in his truck.
>He then proceeds to try
>and shoot the doe in
>the head. When he finally
>kills the doe he then
>lets his buddy that also
>has a tag use his
>gun to shoot a doe.
>Real effective game managment.

Hunters ethics have nothing to do with the game management plan. I take issue with your story just as much as you do. But you make is sound useless. The tags are approved because it is necessary and science supports it. What's better is that SFW has gotten preliminary approval for an additional 100 does for the trans-relocation. The reason they stopped doing the relocations were because of the high mortality. These are the best and latest numbers outside of small attempts in 2000 and 2005 which weren't studies but rather "lets see what happens" type efforts and they completely failed with 3% success for 6 months and then 0% survival at 1 year. I'd like to be more positive about the likelihood of better methods that ARE being looked at through SFW's funded study. When Byron brought it up in the mule deer meeting, I was told DWR was very skeptical but after some discussion on new techniques there might be some really good things coming. We'll have to see.

>
>KLBZDAD your links to studies
>are to studies that were
>done decades ago. Things have
>changed. I tend to believe
>that we can become better
>by trial and error. Just
>becasue they transplanted deer in
>1985 with a low success
>margin does not mean that
>will be the case in
>2012.
>
>Couple Serious question for you.
>Do you hunt Mule Deer
>outside of Utah?

Nevada and New Mexico

>Do you
>hunt mule deer outside of
>S. Utah?

S. Utah is the only region I hunt in but not the only region I spend substantial time with mule deer in. I was born and raised in Moab so I grew up on the Lasal, Manti, and San Juan.

I am just
>trying to gain a better
>perspective of why you think
>the way you do.
>
>
>

Fair enough. There is new research being published soon that I cannot release because its in the process of being copyrighted but it does show promise for some new seeding and planting techniques on recovering winter range. If you listen to the wildlife board meeting from yesterday, you can hear some of the discussion about the habitat from even Jim and Teresa. I also have been putting in for a tag in Colorado for about five years too but was told yesterday to buckle down and get ready for a wait not because of the deer numbers but because of high b/d ratios....hmmmmmm
 
entertaining thread.

Couple of questions.
I remember watching the parowan summit wintering herd back in the early 70's when there was a hell of alot more deer there than there is now. Why is it that range is in such bad shape now with fewer deer on it. and it was ok with more deer 40 years ago.

Also, for those touting the expertise of the biologists, we've had biologists around for a long time. If they know how to fix the mule deer situation, why are mule deer declining all over the west.?

I have my own opinions and answers to my questions. But, I'd like to hear from the couple of experts on this thread that seem to know everything.
 
>entertaining thread.
>
>Couple of questions.
>I remember watching the parowan summit
>wintering herd back in the
>early 70's when there was
>a hell of alot more
>deer there than there is
>now. Why is it
>that range is in such
>bad shape now with fewer
>deer on it. and it
>was ok with more deer
>40 years ago.

Declining health of winter habitat = declining health of wintering herd.


>
>Also, for those touting the expertise
>of the biologists, we've
>had biologists around for a
>long time. If they
>know how to fix the
>mule deer situation, why
>are mule deer declining all
>over the west.?

Science has been interrupted by social pressure. Its that simple. Especially in Utah and especially like you see in this thread. Emotion gets in the way of actually managing the deer be it by special interest or sportsmen groups or by the division itself on certain issues. Hopefully as the new mule deer management plan comes in 2013/2014 and we have a couple of years of managing both hunters and animals under the micro-units they have some kind of idea how to best handle those areas and herds, such as this one, the best instead of trying to apply a general fix statewide (the biggest DUH!).

>
>I have my own opinions and
>answers to my questions.
>But, I'd like to hear
>from the couple of experts
>on this thread that seem
>to know everything.

Now, if I'm one of the "know it alls" that you're referring to. Go ahead and jump on the bandwagon and call me an idiot too. Nevada's management plan is actually closer to the one subscribed by the members of the mule deer working group than Utah but I think my brother has drawn out twice in the last eight years and myself three times.
 
KLBZDAD,
If you have five points in Colorado what are you waiting for. For a guy that does not care if a unit has 15 B/D ratio you sure have a lot of Colorado points. I would not make fun of the B/D ratio in Colorado as it is the premeir Mule Deer spot in the west right now.

I am gonna have to agree to disagree with you. You believe most of what Anis says. I think that Anis is so busy protecting his ideas and his house per say he can't and wont accept any outside ideas. He has no clue how managment is being done in other states and it is honestly unfortunate for us as Utah Sportsman.

The real issue is that the DWR numbers portray that Unit 28 is at population levels. This is incorrect data and they really have no clue what the population is. They use a POP2 program that was abandoned by other states decades ago because other states felt that they recieved unreliable inforamtion.

Here is the deal at the end of the day I feel that there is no way in Hell we are at population levels on this unit. I own a large chunk of property at 8,000 feet on this unit. I have asked the sheep herder to graze my land twice a year bacause there is so much feed. I am lucky to see 20-30 deer per day on this property. The sheep herder grazes for 3 weeks in the spring and three weeks in the fall. The rest of the time the property is stagnite. Regardless of what you say there is no way we should be killing MAMAS on this unit.

Nice thing about the units we now have in Utah is you can slaughter the deer on this unit I will just go to another unit. KLBZDAD I really hope that you can realize that we should only kill MAMAS as a last resort and that there is no way we are at population limit. Once that is realized perspective may change.
 
My dad was born and raised in Beaver and grew up in the 50's when the deer herds were booming.
So, betweeen the 50's and 70's when there were huge numbers of deer, no decline in winter habitat? When alot more deer were using the winter range. But between the 70's and now fewer animals but big degradation in the winter range?
Caused by the animals, I think someone said above.
How can this be?
 
LAST EDITED ON May-04-12 AT 10:58PM (MST)[p]>KLBZDAD,
>
> If you have five
>points in Colorado what are
>you waiting for. For a
>guy that does not care
>if a unit has 15
>B/D ratio you sure have
>a lot of Colorado points.
>I would not make fun
>of the B/D ratio in
>Colorado as it is the
>premeir Mule Deer spot in
>the west right now.
>

I am not making fun of Colorado at all and put in for 201 and 211. I primarily archery hunt so its very difficult to draw those units even with PPs. They also put a cap on tags a lot sooner than Utah did and they don't a have some of the issues we have to deal with here in the way of encroachment and biodiversity.
>
> I am gonna have
>to agree to disagree with
>you. You believe most of
>what Anis says. I think
>that Anis is so busy
>protecting his ideas and his
>house per say he can't
>and wont accept any outside
>ideas. He has no clue
>how managment is being done
>in other states and it
>is honestly unfortunate for us
>as Utah Sportsman.
>

Anis is a member and contributor to the Mule Deer Working Group. He is fully aware of how management is being done in other states but Utah is unique because of the influence of certain special interest groups that I don't care to get into a shouting match about. I don't agree with him all the time because even I get irritated when he puts "his house" before proper management. I would love for him to stand up there and say, "That's a damn dumb idea and we cannot and will not support it as a division." Or even, "Lets give that a try and see if it works for two years WITHOUT changing it before we bring it up for discussion again."

>
> The real issue is
>that the DWR numbers portray
>that Unit 28 is at
>population levels. This is incorrect
>data and they really have
>no clue what the population
>is. They use a POP2
>program that was abandoned by
>other states decades ago because
>other states felt that they
>recieved unreliable inforamtion.
>

Of course its incorrect data. DWR's data is always going to be incorrect unless there were "abundant game herds for all to enjoy". You're right, I don't buy into the mantra of vilifying to division to make another bunch relevant and I never will. I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer it sure seems to me that there have been lots of experts critical of DWR and when DWR gives in to them and tries it the critic's way and yet again that way fails, somehow its the division's fault so again, I sure wish Anis would tell everyone to eat crap and shut up and he'd just do his thing. That would be nice. You and I can agree to disagree. That keeps us friendly. However, I did find this for you to look at if you'll take the time. Its pretty current too:

http://www.muledeerworkinggroup.com/Docs/Mason et al 2006 Standardized Surveys.pdf


>
> Here is the deal
>at the end of the
>day I feel that there
>is no way in Hell
>we are at population levels
>on this unit. I own
>a large chunk of property
>at 8,000 feet on this
>unit. I have asked the
>sheep herder to graze my
>land twice a year bacause
>there is so much feed.
>I am lucky to see
>20-30 deer per day on
>this property. The sheep herder
>grazes for 3 weeks
>in the spring and three
>weeks in the fall.

I don't know where you are or what you have to graze on your land. If its cheat grass and its turning brown its worthless and nothing will eat it and that's the case most of the summer. But There is a huge difference between the dispersal of these animals in the other three seasons as opposed the the winter, is there not?

The
>rest of the time the
>property is stagnite. Regardless of
>what you say there is
>no way we should be
>killing MAMAS on this unit.
>

Quality deer management is how you control populations. Plus, its how you control herd health. Ask a bio from any other state in the union. I think Bair said it best, no need to throw yourself off a ledge. Things will work themselves out as we get data. And if people don't like what we do on this Unit, then cray fowl later but I'm certain the 150 harvested plus the 100 that SFW relocates will offer plenty of relief and with new seeding and planting methods, we will see substantial health recruitment in this area. Listen to the audio. Even the director and Teresa note the alarming rate that the habitat is being utilized by the deer. And this is short term if we can get some of the prior efforts to actually start producing too! That would be exceptional!

>
> Nice
>thing about the units we
>now have in Utah is
>you can slaughter the deer
>on this unit I will
>just go to another unit.
>KLBZDAD I really hope that
>you can realize that we
>should only kill MAMAS as
>a last resort and that
>there is no way we
>are at population limit. Once
>that is realized perspective may
>change.

I will be involved with counts and will volunteer my time on the study and anything I have to do to be involved to make sure there isn't abuse on any of these issues on the winter range. I wouldn't put my neck out there if I didn't care and want this to do good for the unit's population. If I'm wrong, I've said it before, I'll never hunt this unit again and I'll throw a crow BBQ!
 
>then you better not hunt this
>unit again.

I'm right, and I'm going to guess that come Monday, I draw not only an elk tag but either a DH or archery tag for this unit and because you don't offer a single substantial solution other than to ##### and moan, enjoy that tag soup of yours. I think EFA was still waiting for an answer from you on how you were going to help this unit with real solutions and not bullcrap, run your pie hole, "it wasn't like this 80 years ago" bs. So, whatcha got brother? Lets see your smarts.....I'm dying to know how you'd really fix THE HERD! Have at it....i have lots of camo duct tape to keep my head from exploding.You have a nice weekend and good luck in the draw yourself Perkins.
 
Here you go Klbzdad

Some ways to help the herd.

First get a true count of the population, just as a many of our ranchers who have spent hours on the Dutton have said there are not 500 deer on that mountain, but yet the classified count or whatever you call it says way more deer than that. Just like the Beaver claim is 11,000 deer, my hell there is not 1,100 deer on that mountain, they must have added one to many zeros.

So if the numbers are low like everyone but a few who want a tag are saying, lets start with taking away some of the hunting numbers and pressure. Way to many hunters, hunting to few deer and for way to long. Hunts start in mid August and run up to November, poor deer do not stand a chance. How many do you think get wounded and die during this time. So cut many more tags than 500 for the state. That does nothing. You need to cut tags according to real numbers. I see where Nevada and Colorado change number of tags every year according to deer numbers. Some areas may have to close completly, take the Dutton, that is probably one of the units that needs to be shut down.

Quit shooting the antelerless herd claiming they eat all of the winter habitat. As as been said by many in the 70's many more deer and still the habitat was good to hold the numbers. Now there is no deer and habitat all of a sudden is an excuse.

If the preditors are killing way to many of our fawn crop, lets take care of them. Step up and get rid of them all see if that increases the herd.

So here are my suggestions for you to read easily.

1. CUT HUNTING PRESSURE BY CUTTING NECESSARY TAGS
2. DO NOT KILL ANY FEMALE DEER THAT MAY HELP INCREASE OUR HERD
3. MAKE HONEST DEER COUNTS SO CORRECT DECISIONS CAN BE MADE
4. PREDITOR CONTROL TO HELP FAWN CROP STAY ALIVE
5. DON'T BELIEVE ANYONE WHO SAYS MORE TAGS AND MORE HUNTERS DO NOT HURT A DEER HERD
 
>Here you go Klbzdad
>
>Some ways to help the herd.
>
>
>First get a true count of
>the population, just as a
>many of our ranchers who
>have spent hours on the
>Dutton have said there are
>not 500 deer on that
>mountain, but yet the classified
>count or whatever you call
>it says way more deer
>than that. Just like
>the Beaver claim is 11,000
>deer, my hell there is
>not 1,100 deer on that
>mountain, they must have added
>one to many zeros.

Please define "TRUE COUNT" because no state in North America gets an exact count of the deer within its boarders. Please, before you pop off with "COLORADO DOES" or ARIZONA DOES" make use you post the biologist or field tec's name and phone number so that anyone here can call and verify that because both of those states participate in the MDWG and use models to ESTIMATE populations. And, the last two years have been mild winters, dispersal is far greater for these animals during the summer when ranchers and cattlemen are running their livestock, I'm not taking their word for S&$% on anything so nice try. Give us something of substance and not something you heard on an audio recording. Stanton is a great guy and one of the rare ones I respect among those who in the wool growing and cattle ranching industry. But too often, people are quick to say, "THE DUTTON HERD SUCKS." and truth be told they haven't gone there themselves but once or twice and only hear that from someone else. I went last week. Saw plenty of deer including bucks. I don't get it.

>
>So if the numbers are low
>like everyone but a few
>who want a tag are
>saying, lets start with taking
>away some of the hunting
>numbers and pressure. Way
>to many hunters, hunting to
>few deer and for way
>to long. Hunts start
>in mid August and run
>up to November, poor deer
>do not stand a chance.
> How many do you
>think get wounded and die
>during this time. So
>cut many more tags than
>500 for the state.
>That does nothing. You
>need to cut tags according
>to real numbers. I
>see where Nevada and Colorado
>change number of tags every
>year according to deer numbers.
> Some areas may have
>to close completly, take the
>Dutton, that is probably one
>of the units that needs
>to be shut down.

THE DUTTON. THE DUTTON. Research is being done on THE DUTTON. Write a song already about THE DUTTON. I was there. I have other concerns about that area and I've expressed them to those that can do something. They don't have anything to do with hunter numbers either. What I gather is you don't like archers. Fact is, I spent a couple of years helping rifle hunters so I could gain perspective on what happens during their super short season. Because its so short, they shoot shoot shoot. Holy crap they shoot at antlered anything and wound more deer in a small camp of 10 tag holders than any five archery camps I've ever visited in my lifetime combined! So you can stop with the archers wound more animals that rifle and muzzy hunters garbage. Also, the bucks are dispersed wider and have far better escape routes and less predatory pressure during the early season than they do during the late muzzy and rifle season so there is a disparity in your perception of success rate here. Archery is much more difficult to harvest animals period so there success rate is lower and there are far fewer archers in the field that during the rifle hunt. Therefore there are far fewer animals being wounded, far fewer being harvested, dispersal is wider, predatory pressure is less, so overall harassment is kept to a minimum despite the longer season for archery. Your argument against the longer season is moot and tired. To prove it, gather your group of friends and join with mine and lets pressure the WB and RACs for mandatory reporting. I want mandatory reporting on these small units because I want the division to see actual data from the field on this and not phone data. I have worked in the media too long to believe for a second that phone surveys are accurate. So there ya go, I don't agree with Anis for a second on that, in fact, I call BS!
>
>Quit shooting the antelerless herd claiming
>they eat all of the
>winter habitat. As as
>been said by many in
>the 70's many more deer
>and still the habitat was
>good to hold the numbers.
> Now there is no
>deer and habitat all of
>a sudden is an excuse.
>

This is going to happen. Its science and this isn't the 70s and the habitat isn't the same as it was then either. I for the life of me can't figure out why you can't get that.

>
>If the preditors are killing way
>to many of our fawn
>crop, lets take care of
>them. Step up and
>get rid of them all
>see if that increases the
>herd.


You can't kill them all, there is a place and a balance that needs to happen. We need predators for control of population but we need to control them too. This is where management by DWR is failing in my opinion but is about to get much better. We're going to start finding out how much focus needs to be put on predatory control.


>
>So here are my suggestions for
>you to read easily.
>
>1. CUT HUNTING PRESSURE BY
>CUTTING NECESSARY TAGS
>2. DO NOT KILL ANY
>FEMALE DEER THAT MAY HELP
>INCREASE OUR HERD
>3. MAKE HONEST DEER COUNTS
>SO CORRECT DECISIONS CAN BE
>MADE
>4. PREDITOR CONTROL TO HELP
>FAWN CROP STAY ALIVE
>5. DON'T BELIEVE ANYONE WHO
>SAYS MORE TAGS AND MORE
>HUNTERS DO NOT HURT A
>DEER HERD


That is your wish list. Those are solutions. HOW. You can't get real numbers without guessing and science is better than anything you've offered and the best science is already being used its just not what you want to hear.

Its not THE HERD, its one of many HERDS (plural). And the habitat has changed and depleted and cannot handle the population anymore. That happens, and has. Therefore, we are doing something about it including transplants and harvest. The plan will work and it will benefit this particular winter herd and will help the habitat with new science and data along with new range studies coming and new seed plantings.

Nobody says more hunters and tags help. Who says that? For hell's sake man. Bucks don't give birth, when ALL states issue tags (again, talk to the same biologists or field tec's when you post their telephone numbers before replying) they are issuing tags for the harvest of excess bucks or other sex deer. Its the surplus we harvest every year, not the other way around. If you have 5 bucks and 5 does and the most fawns any deer can give birth too is 2. How many max deer can you have next year? 20. If you have 5 Bucks and 1 doe how many max can you have next year? 8. But if you have 1 buck and 5 does, how many max can you have the following year? 16!!!!!!!!!!!! STOP WITH THE BUCKS HAVE A UTERUS BULL!!!!!! This winter range can't handle having that many fawns return so we have to slow down the return of animals to that winter range. They aren't harvesting from other wintering herds from unit 28, just this one. So the overall herd numbers for unit 28 are going to be fine.

I'll let elkfromabove chime in from here......I can't take anymore shortbus arguments anymore. Good luck in the draw there buddy! CC hits should start tonight or very soon!
 
KLBZDAD, You get frustrated when people reference the Colorado herd. The reality is Colorado has set the bar and all states should hope to reach the heard managment that Colorado has reached.

Our POP2 estimates are embaressing to say the least. I am not going to give you any names but in my research for Colorado I talked to multiple biologist in various units that not only did ground estimates but they also flew the unit that they managed in helicopters and could tell me how many 170+ bucks per 100 deer they saw. They can also tell you the buck to doe ratio. Amount of deer on the unit. Health of the heard. Fawn Survival rate. (usually at 60% in my research). They also keep track of the 2 yaar old bucks on the unit to ensure the future of both the herd and the hunter.

You can say what you want but in my opinion the foundation of our problem is we have no idea how many deer we have.

Example. Look at the DWR population estimate for any Southern unit. For the last 5 years the estimates are within a couple 100 deer every year. No way that is correct. Can you really tell me that the Panguitch unit has not varied more than that in the last 5 years.

So go ahead and say dont reference Colorado. But in my opinion I can only wish that we could do things half as well as they do. Fact of the matter is when you are the best you will set the bar of comparison. That is why all basketball players are compared to Michael Jordan.
 
>KLBZDAD, You get frustrated when people
>reference the Colorado herd. The
>reality is Colorado has set
>the bar and all states
>should hope to reach the
>heard managment that Colorado has
>reached.
>
>Our POP2 estimates are embaressing to
>say the least. I am
>not going to give you
>any names but in my
>research for Colorado I talked
>to multiple biologist in various
>units that not only did
>ground estimates but they also
>flew the unit that they
>managed in helicopters and could
>tell me how many 170+
>bucks per 100 deer they
>saw. They can also tell
>you the buck to doe
>ratio. Amount of deer on
>the unit. Health of the
>heard. Fawn Survival rate. (usually
>at 60% in my research).
>They also keep track of
>the 2 yaar old bucks
>on the unit to ensure
>the future of both the
>herd and the hunter.
>
> You can say what you
>want but in my opinion
>the foundation of our problem
>is we have no idea
>how many deer we have.
>
>
>Example. Look at the DWR population
>estimate for any Southern unit.
>For the last 5 years
>the estimates are within a
>couple 100 deer every year.
>No way that is correct.
>Can you really tell me
>that the Panguitch unit has
>not varied more than that
>in the last 5 years.
>
>
>So go ahead and say dont
>reference Colorado. But in my
>opinion I can only wish
>that we could do things
>half as well as they
>do. Fact of the matter
>is when you are the
>best you will set the
>bar of comparison. That is
>why all basketball players are
>compared to Michael Jordan.


Or Wilt Chamberlain, or Larry Bird, or Magic Johnson, or whatever era you might have come from. FACT: You won't give names because you're full of it! Andy Holland is Colorado's Statewide Big Game Manager. How about you give him a call and try to feed him full of your crap and convince him to tell Anis and the rest that Utah needs to mirror Colorado and see what he has to say about that. But I'll save you a call and share what I was told. "Utah is unique, its not Colorado, and the units and topography and ecology in Utah cannot be managed the same as we do here." Take that to the bank! I'm not upset or excited about everyone dragging other states into the discussion, we might as well. There is science available but the problem is nobody will acknowledge that science unless there is immediate success associated with it and that isn't the case with mother nature. You all know better than that and THAT is the frustrating part of all this. There is zero need for any of us to have a weinie rubbing contest here about who wants to see bigger, better, badder mule deer antlers and numbers in Utah. We all want that. But ultimately, its not a human solution that is going to fix this, its going to be a mother nature solution. How mankind tenders and assists her will determine the amount of success we see in our lifetime, and that is the debate I see us having. So, we transplant some does and hope that does some good. We know there is going to be mortality with it, but we have to see how best to face that challenge in order to make the process work for mule deer. The better we make the process work, the sooner we help mother nature on places like THE DUTTON and others where we possible could plop down some unwanted populations of younger does. In the mean time, we have to do what is best now. 70 years ago, I absolutely believe that range was bad arse!!!!! The best winter range on earth!!!! But after being pounded because its right next to water and because of the freeway being where it is....the range needs relief. We need to remove mouths. There is some new seed out there that can not only compete with cheat grass, but can win! We need to reseed some areas out there and do some substantial work on the habitat where deer actual come to winter. There is rumor of a more hearty seed for a brush that carries good nutrition that also does well during the winter. This can be examined as well. But there definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. Time for new strategy and that is what I'm advocating. Post a bio's name, lets get him or her in the conversation. elkfromabove has posted studies from Colorado refuting many claims that Colorado does actual number studies. Sight-ability maybe, but you can only do that with very specific range conditions. In Utah, that is almost next to impossible with the exception of a few where we do elk and other species where it is much easier to pattern movements. I'd give you the link to that discussion on the mule deer working group, but you're always quick to discount it. Good luck in the draw....I just realized my bank sent me a new credit card due to expiration date....so I'm waiting for the phone call!
 
I wasn't going to make anymore comments. However just can't help but put in my 2 cents. Ha Ha Ha KLBZAD.....you are a winner.How much do you get for your comments???However I do agree with you on a couple of things, first: too many people building in the deer habitat and too many roads, not just freeways, making it difficult for the deer to find their place in the mountains, but I can guarantee you that they won't just stand in one place until they starve to death, animals have the instinct, that mother nature gave them, to survive. Second: Yes its a "Mother Nature Solution" and if all these smart educated people will let her be, she will do the job just fine. I'm on old 50's 60's and 70's hunter that you are trying to tell that the habitat is different (BS) my cattle still eat the same upon the range that they did 40 years ago. I have seen winters that you will probably never see, snow clear up to our windows, we would have to shovel a tunnel to get out to the barn to feed the cows. Draughts: We would have to haul water every day up on the mountain to the cattle range, but guess what? We still had Herds and Herds of deer each spring that survived. I,too, have ridden the mountains this year and I find plenty of good feed comming up, saw it last year, but nothing is out there to eat it...why? Well this ole fart will tell you why. NO DEER. NOTHING BUT OVERKILL OVER THE LAST 15 YEARS, not only were we not satisfied with the age of hunter but we've gone from 16 year old to 12 year old ( I know other states do it, but it still adds)We are no better off than we were 15 years ago when we got the smart educated people involved to solve the problem, we have spend thousand and thousand of dollars on studies and seeding. One easy solution: Close half the units down for three years, then close the other half down for three years and I'll bet ya that mother nature will take care of it without charging you a dime. OH BY THE WAY YOU SAID YOU WERE OUT ON THE DUTTON AROUND THE 7TH OF MAY AND COUNTED PLENTY OF BUCKS....WOW I HOPE YOU ARE IN THE COUNTS FOR DWR, WHEN I WAS TALKING TO THEM, (MAY 14) THEY SAID THE BUCKS NUBS WERE ONLY ABOUT 2-3 INCHES, YOU HAVE 3-D EYES TO BE ABLE TO PICK "PLENTY OF BUCKS" OUT OF A HERD. ANOTHER THING.....WHY DO YOU KEEP SAYING AT THE END OF YOUR COMMENTS, "GOOD LUCK ON THE DRAW" IS THIS A THREAT TO THOSE OUT THERE OR WHAT?
 
>I wasn't going to make anymore
>comments. However just can't
>help but put in my
>2 cents. Ha
>Ha Ha KLBZAD.....you are a
>winner.How much do you get
>for your comments???However I do
>agree with you on a
>couple of things, first:
>too many people building in
>the deer habitat and too
>many roads, not just freeways,
>making it difficult for the
>deer to find their place
>in the mountains, but I
>can guarantee you that they
>won't just stand in one
>place until they starve to
>death, animals have the instinct,
>that mother nature gave them,
>to survive. Second: Yes
>its a "Mother Nature Solution"
> and if all these
>smart educated people will let
>her be, she will do
>the job just fine. I'm
>on old 50's 60's and
>70's hunter that you are
>trying to tell that the
>habitat is different (BS) my
>cattle still eat the same
>upon the range that they
>did 40 years ago. I
>have seen winters that you
>will probably never see, snow
>clear up to our windows,
>we would have to shovel
>a tunnel to get out
>to the barn to feed
>the cows. Draughts: We would
>have to haul water every
>day up on the mountain
>to the cattle range, but
>guess what? We still
>had Herds and Herds of
>deer each spring that survived.
> I,too, have ridden the
>mountains this year and I
>find plenty of good feed
>comming up, saw it last
>year, but nothing is out
>there to eat it...why?
>Well this ole fart will
>tell you why. NO DEER.
>NOTHING BUT OVERKILL OVER THE
>LAST 15 YEARS, not only
>were we not satisfied with
>the age of hunter but
>we've gone from 16 year
>old to 12 year old
> ( I know other
>states do it, but it
>still adds)We are no better
>off than we were 15
>years ago when we got
>the smart educated people involved
>to solve the problem, we
>have spend thousand and thousand
>of dollars on studies and
>seeding. One easy solution:
>Close half the units down
>for three years, then close
>the other half down for
>three years and I'll bet
>ya that mother nature will
>take care of it without
>charging you a dime.
>OH BY THE WAY
> YOU SAID YOU WERE
>OUT ON THE DUTTON AROUND
>THE 7TH OF MAY AND
>COUNTED PLENTY OF BUCKS....WOW I
>HOPE YOU ARE IN THE
>COUNTS FOR DWR, WHEN I
>WAS TALKING TO THEM, (MAY
>14) THEY SAID THE BUCKS
>NUBS WERE ONLY ABOUT 2-3
>INCHES, YOU HAVE 3-D EYES
>TO BE ABLE TO PICK
>"PLENTY OF BUCKS" OUT OF
>A HERD. ANOTHER THING.....WHY
>DO YOU KEEP SAYING AT
>THE END OF YOUR COMMENTS,
> "GOOD LUCK ON THE
>DRAW" IS THIS A
>THREAT TO THOSE OUT THERE
>OR WHAT?

I'll agree to close half the units when you agree to close those same units to all grazing for the same time period. OUCH!!!!! Suddenly doesn't sit so well, does it, "old timer"? They weren't button bucks, they were well into their growth at about 9 or 10 inches and I wasn't with DWR. I was on horseback with a friend. Your suggestions wreak of someone who isn't a sportsman but someone with "special interest", so I'm going to explain my comment to you....the draw has been done, the credit cards are being hit, and it was my sincere wish that everyone have good luck in the draw and get what they put in for. Now, have a nice day!
 
I haven't been on this thread for some time, but it's time to make a final observation. This has gone from an easy to understand solution to a current problem on a very small portion (.05%) of Utah's public accessible deer habitat dealing with a very small portion (.08%) of Utah's deer herd to a universal debate for the cure all solution/s for the decline of mule deer over the last 52 years. And it seems like everybody knows the problem (over harvesting bucks, killing does, predation, low buck to doe ratios, roadkill, p&j encroachment, oil and gas wells, etc., etc., etc.) And everyone has the solution/s (we can become better by trial and error, spread the animals out with guzzlers, no doe hunts, burn the doe tags, close down 1/2 the units for 3 years, scare tactics to push them to another part of the range, let nature take care of it, do the counts like Colorado, raise the buck to doe ratios, listen to the ranchers, hunters and sheep herders, etc., etc., etc.)

This forum is a great place to express ideas and can be an influence, especially for those who may not have formed an opinion on certain things, but it gets tiring repeating the same things over and over and providing the same or similar studies for various solutions only to be asked to provide more. If these issues concern you as much as you seem to indicate, do your own research like many of us do.

All I can say is that I emailed the RAC and Wildlife Board members and spoke out at 2 of the RAC's and the Wildlife Board meeting and backed my remarks up with research from the range ride and extensive online, book, and phone calls and the Wildlife Board seemed to appreciate that. In any case, the hunt is still on. (In addition to the SFW translocation.) If you think your opposing solution is better, then you're more than welcome to do as I did. Just make sure you have more than just your personal observations and/or emotions to back you up.

And, yes, I too wish you well in the draw and even better in the hunts! And be safe!
 
LAST EDITED ON May-23-12 AT 12:19PM (MST)[p]So, what's the goal after shooting 150-400 this year? Is that all they plan on getting rid of and plan to knock it out in 1 year?
 
>LAST EDITED ON May-23-12
>AT 12:19?PM (MST)
>
>So, what's the goal after shooting
>150-400 this year? Is that
>all they plan on getting
>rid of and plan to
>knock it out in 1
>year?

Since these are direct questions without a a hidden agenda (I hope!), I'll tell you what I know. First off, we will only see 150 antlerless permits which means that a few less than 150 deer (does and young bucks) will be killed. Second, there is in the works two 50 collared deer translocation studies, per SFW, DWR, BLM and a BYU wildlife biologist/professor and others, that hopefully will take place this coming winter. Any future plans will depend somewhat on those studies. Third, the 150 harvest target is only the number of deer recruited yearly into the small herd using that winter range and doesn't even begin to slow down the rate of damage, let alone reverse it. That number has been the same for the last 4 or 5 years, but the damage keeps getting worse. Fourth, that number is the highest the DWR thought would get through the system, but is less than 1/2 the number of mouths needed to be removed each year for the next 3 to 5 years to allow the forage to recover, even with the work that has been or will be done. Fifth, we also have the challenge of redirecting the deer to use more viable areas. They are creatures of habit to the point that they have created their own dilemma. This all takes time, so, no, this is not a 1 year fix it situation. Fifth, there are also in the works some plans to do some seeding and seedling planting of forage that will restore/revitalize the habitat. How much, what, exactly where, when, how, and by whom are details that will be worked out.

No matter what efforts are made or what tactics we pursue, we have to understand that we need to be in it for the long haul. Killing coyotes, building fences, lop and scatter, fires, reseeding, chaining, guzzlers, and all the rest of it will not show immediate (12 month) results, especially since man and nature have ways of messing up plans. The mule deer herds have been on the decline for many years and won't/can't be fixed in 1.
 
Thank you.

I was hoping they weren't going to try to do a 1 yr fix to bring numbers down and would attempt to stair-step quotas to be able to re-evaluate things yearly. But you're right, if they're about to have a lot of money thrown into the mix they need to start paying attention and evaluate everything; all the way down to soil quality in relation to browse quality. Everything you referenced is common practice for our WT management and even with a naturally higher recruitment rate (and the most unpredictable weather imaginable) it takes a while to get things right.
 
KLBZAD:

"SONNY" THE GRAZING RANGE IS DOING JUST FINE FOR MY CATTLE. THE IDEA HERE IS TO TRY AND MULTIPLY AND REPLENISH THE DEER HERD.(GET WITH THE PROGRAM)...I STILL THINK, FROM WHAT I HAVE HEARD FROM OTHER SPORTSMAN THAT YOU MUST OF SEEN A FEW BULL ELK OUT ON THE DUTTON AND THAT REMAINS A QUESTION, AS THEY SAY THE ELK IS WAY DOWN ON THE DUTTON. HOWEVER AT THIS TIME, I'LL GO ALONG WITH YOU ABOUT THE NUBS, BUT NEXT YEAR AROUND MAY 7, POST THE DAY AND TIME THAT YOU'LL BE OUT HERE OR ANW WHERE CLOSE TO SOUTHERN UTAH, AND I'LL RIDE OUT WITH YOU SO I CAN SEE FOR MYSELF JUST HOW FAR THEIR HORNS ARE OUT AT THAT TIME OF THE YEAR, AS I REALLY HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO SEE THEM OUT THAT FAR UNTIL AROUND THE MIDDLE OF JUNE.
 
>KLBZAD:
>
>"SONNY" THE GRAZING RANGE IS
>DOING JUST FINE FOR MY
>CATTLE. THE IDEA HERE
>IS TO TRY AND MULTIPLY
>AND REPLENISH THE DEER HERD.(GET
>WITH THE PROGRAM)...I STILL THINK,
>FROM WHAT I HAVE HEARD
>FROM OTHER SPORTSMAN THAT YOU
>MUST OF SEEN A FEW
>BULL ELK OUT ON THE
>DUTTON AND THAT REMAINS A
>QUESTION, AS THEY SAY THE
>ELK IS WAY DOWN ON
>THE DUTTON. HOWEVER AT THIS
>TIME, I'LL GO ALONG WITH
>YOU ABOUT THE NUBS, BUT
>NEXT YEAR AROUND MAY 7,
>POST THE DAY AND TIME
>THAT YOU'LL BE OUT HERE
>OR ANW WHERE CLOSE TO
>SOUTHERN UTAH, AND I'LL RIDE
>OUT WITH YOU SO I
>CAN SEE FOR MYSELF JUST
>HOW FAR THEIR HORNS ARE
>OUT AT THAT TIME OF
>THE YEAR, AS I REALLY
>HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO SEE
>THEM OUT THAT FAR UNTIL
>AROUND THE MIDDLE OF JUNE.
>

"SONNY", hardly. I'll let you know when I'm out there next year, sure....SOOOOOOOO, we're a no go on closing the units down? I didn't think you'd agree to close the same units to cattle as you were referring to in regard to mule deer. Its a tired battle cry that didn't do anything magical for the Bookcliffs. Yawn!

I think I saw one or two elk rump while I was on the Dutton but that was it. Mostly deer, mostly bucks, growth to their ears on the big bodied ones, ears average about 8-9 inches. Pretty much what I've seen on the Beaver, Henry, and Panguitch units too. And I'm sure the Zion will look the same today and tomorrow.
 
>Your full of BS, just like
>the DWR----YOU DREAM TO BIG
>SONNY.


You know you're ignorant when you have to resort to insulting someone instead of engaging them in conversation. And you, rperkins, have offered some of the most worthless conversation on this subject that I have ever wasted brain cells reading. So, here, read this stupid:

http://www.ndow.org/about/news/pr/2012/April/2012_quota.shtm

and this one if you're feable old mind can take some new education. I know you can't handle anything that PROVES your "glory days" are over:

http://www.ndow.org/about/pubs/reports/muledeer.pdf

Your problem is you can't see past your big swollen nose! Looks like I'm not only going to be hunting Unit 28, but I'm dedicated on the unit for the next three years. So, I've done all I needed to do here. The science is proving true, and not just in Utah. You won't live to see the Glory Days of Mule Deer because you're old and the work being done now won't manifest result for another ten to twenty years. Myself and my kids will see the fruits of our labor though and I am going out on a limb by guessing that you are just someone who runs their mouth....you contribute nothing. That's usually the case with those who are most critical of the people who actually do the work. Have a great weekend and a nice life, rperkins. I won't respond to this thread anymore, so hijack it all you want. Its run its course.
 

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