>wow....insults??? who's the one in
>3rd grade?
Oh I get it. You accusing me of jumping sides is not an insult. Well allow me to retort. I asked you to show me exactly what you are talking about a little deeper than your one liner. Since you are unwilling or unable, the likely conclusion to draw is that you did not read or did not comprehend what was expressed, being more interested in making accusations against someone who does not fall lock step into your own ideology. Or perhaps you did go back and comprehend the message and now feel silly about your own drive by insult, and therefore have nothing to say now that you have called me out. If you would like, I can get out the jumbo crayons and outline the common theme of my remarks.
Since you are quick to be the resident drive by and exert zero effort to back up your claims I'll do your work for you and point out just how inconsistent I've been. Read slowly and carefully and you should be able to pick out a common theme. Forgive me if my not getting swallowed up in fear mongering rhetoric in lei of fact based dialogue somehow compels you to call me out.
Since you struck up a post with the intent to cash in on the 'folly' of my 'change' in argument as you perceived, it seemed you opened the doors for me to insult the folly of your comprehension ability.
**JUMBO CRAYON FOOT NOTE
* In common parlance, a devil's advocate is someone who, given a certain argument, takes a position he or she does not necessarily agree with, just for the sake of argument. In taking such position, the individual taking on the devil's advocate role seeks to engage others in an argumentative discussion process. The purpose of such process is typically to test the quality of the original argument and identify weaknesses in its structure, and to use such information to either improve or abandon the original, opposing position.
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POST 1
I DO NOT CARE FOR THEM ONE BIT. I have seen a few that seemed fairly well mannered and I DO THINK THEY GET A BAD RAP FROM A LOT OF IRRESPONSIBLE BREEDERS AND OWNERS. I WOULD NOT HAVE ONE AND I DARN SURE WOULD NEVER TRUST ONE AROUND MY KIDS. I have also seen horrible aggression issues with other dogs including rotties, collies, aussie sheps., and others. It is interesting to look at bite statistics tracked by the CDC. A few of the breeds have a shocking track record. IT IS LIKE ANYTHING ELSE YOU OWN WITH ASSUMED RISK...YOU ALSO ASSUME THE LIABILITY. IF SOMEONE WANTS IT MORE POWER TO THEM. KEEP THEM LOCKED UP AND AWAY FROM OTHERS WHO DID NOT ASSUME THE RISK. All (insert breed here) are not dangerous dogs but all (insert breed here) can potentially be dangerous. I HESISTATE TO GIVE INTO THE IDEA OF OUTLAWING A BREED OF ANYTHING BASED SOLEY ON THE BAD BEHAVIOR OF A HANDFUL OF DOGS AND THEIR OWNERS. If the motivation stems from a public safety standpoint then we would save a lot more human life and limb by outlawing liquor cabinets because a select few drink irresponsibly. Both ideas are equally absurd. Rather lets keep our freedom to choose and hold people accountable for their inability to choose wisely. THAT SAID, I HAVE ZERO AFFECTION FOR THE PITS AND WOULD NOT LOSE ANY SLEEP OVER DISPATCHING ON INTO THE DIRT. I would take issue if the next stop was the GSD being outlawed.
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POST 2
GSD = German Shepherd. I've also had a chow which many would say is prone to be over aggressive. She was as mellow as any lab. Dogs are very instinct driven there is no question about that. However, the term Pitbull is very loosely used to define a broad range of dogs of varied genetics such as the St. Bernard, Mastiffs, Boxers, and English Bulldogs, Great Pyenees, Swiss Mountain Dog, ect., which also come from the Molosser group which are all considered pits.
Even if you narrow it down to specifically be talking about the American Pitbull Terrior or the Staffordshire (the two which have the look predominately associated with pits) you can have several deviations of sub genetics which would be manifest in behavior differences. Every bird dog is going to have different levels of hunting drive and these dogs are no different.
If I go slap a Sire GSP with a ##### GSP at random I really doubt I'd be able to sell the litter for the same premium that an expert who has bred German Shorthair Pointers for decades can get. Why? because not all instinct is created equal that's why. Not all German Shepherds will be police dogs. Some have it, some don't. I have zero affection for the pit but some folks are equally critical about GSD's. Some of it has merit and some of it is knee jerk reaction rubbish.
According to some charts, I have owned the #3 and #7 most dangerous dogs in the world with these three knuckleheads.....I've seen some Shepherds and some Chows that may have been...but as I said, not all dogs are created equal.
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POST 3
We are on the same page Andy. My point is simply that if an adult leaves a loaded .357 unsecured and it finds its way into the hands of someone who should not have had it such as a small child, is it the gun or is it the neglegence of the adult to blame when tragedy strikes? Some people choose not to own guns because of the potential risk. Some do. It is a tragedy anytime we lose the liberty to choose because the lowest common denomimator of society fails to employ common sense. Rather than forfeiting our liberty it seems more fitting to hold people accountable for neglegent decision making. Society gets outraged from horrific stories of dog attacks involving death or serious bodily injury and they very well should. The most widespread cause of death and serious injury in this country today is DUI crashes. Not to mention the link between alcohol and all other manner of crime such as assault, sexual assault, child abuse and neglect, ect. The victims from alcohol dwarf the victims of animal attacks by a wide margin. Every year you can bank on several thousand deaths of innocent third parties who will die from the actions of others poor choice to drink and drive. So by virtue of this do we go back to prohibition? What about hunting accidents, pool drownings ect. It is a slippery slope when we submit our liberties to choose. Today it might be somethimg you or I have no interest in so it can only benefit us. What about tomorow? Just my two cents and something I find worthy of consideration. If they were to cull every Pit next month and exterminate them from the planet I would not lose sleep over it. I would lose sleep over wondering what item is next on the agenda.
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POST 4
Ironically, it was a border collie that gave me a scar on my right hand when I was about 8 after attacking me in my yard on my front porch. Several months later the same dog attacked another neighbor kid which resulted in the border collie being put down by the County.
Did you know....
1.) About 40 people (children) per year die by drowning in 5-gallon water pails. A person, during their lifetime, is 16 times more likely to drown in a 5-gallon water pail than to be killed by a Pit Bull.
2.) Approximately 50 children in the US are killed every year by their cribs - 25 times the number of children and adults killed by Pit Bulls.
3.) Approximately 150 people are killed every year by falling coconuts. Therefore, you are more than 60 TIMES MORE LIKELY to be killed by a PALM TREE than a Pit Bull.
4.) Each year, 350 people drown in their bathtubs. You are 151 times more likely to be killed by your bathtub than you are by a Pit Bull.
5) Every year, more than 2,000 children in the U.S. are killed by their parents or guardians either through abuse or neglect. A child is more than 800 times more likely to be killed by their caretaker than by a Pit Bull.
6) It can be estimated that for every Pit Bull who kills, there are 10.5 MILLION that DON'T!
FATAL DOG ATTACKS: THE TRUTH BEHIND THE TRAGEDY
Extensive research and investigation has conclusively identified the ownership/management practices that are at the root of the rare, but perfect, storm when a dog becomes dangerous.
Function of Dog ?
Owners obtaining dogs, and maintaining them as resident dogs outside of the household for purposes other than as family pets (i.e. guarding/ protection, fighting, intimidation/status, irresponsible and negligent breeding).
Owner Management & Control of Dogs
Owners failing to humanely contain, control and maintain their dogs (chained dogs, loose roaming dogs, cases of abuse/neglect); owners failing to knowledgeably supervise interaction between children and dogs.
Reproductive Status of Dog ?
Owners failing to spay or neuter animals not used for competition, show, or in a responsible breeding program.
In 2006, 97% of the fatal attacks were the result of one or more of these reckless or criminal ownership practices.
Karen Delise
National Canine Research Council
All statistics can be cited or referenced by the National Canine Research Council upon request.
www.nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com
Can you spot the killer Pit Bull. This photo was taken just moments before all in the photo fell victim to his world renown killing spree.
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POST 5
(In the interest of space I'll refer to this post as a cut and paste of an interesting article in which a Court of Law found clear and convincing evidence in dispute of claims of genetic predisposition. While I had previously asserted my own position, this post was used to demonstrate the flaws of blanket statements regarding an individual breed. This is commonly referred to as playing the devil's advocate.)
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POST 6
So is it all the genetic double helix to blame or is it training and handling? If I buy a horse with the right genes can I win the Kentucky derby without the proper training and conditioning?
Total drunk driving death toll so far this year. 5,282 souls. Who is calling for prohibition?? The silence on that one is deafening.
8th Utah drowning victim in 2 months. Have not heard the outcry to ban waterway recreation yet.
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=16142670
At least be consistent and stop playing into the hyperbole of one hot button topic.
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POST 7
As an object true. Once consumed it turns the person consuming it without the proper self control, in a Dr. Jekyl Mr. Hyde scenario with the brain capacity equal to that of a Pit. Think of it as a Pit which has instead of a bite, a several ton missile driving at velocities of up to and greater than 80 miles per hour. No Pits, no maulings. No booze, no alcohol related crashes.
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POST 8
Nor can the best horse win with a dink trainer. It is a combination of genetics and conditioning. One does not trump the other. That was precisely my point. Just because you buy a horse which would qualify as a registered quarter horse does not mean it is going to be exactly and equal to any quarter horse. One might be a fantastic speciman of the breed. The other might be, as you put it, a dink. So are there 'dink' dogs also or does the substandard deviation from breed standards only apply to horses? I would submit that this dink phenomenon you brought up exists in both equine and cannine principles of genetic behavior and traits. Like I said earlier, all dogs, even of the same breed, are not created equal. One of the reasons european working dog kennels are effective at producing quality dogs is their ability to identify and cull negative specimans from any given litter. Imagine that, two dogs grown in the same womb, one is good one is not. If same litter siblings can deviate that much it surely must be possible to suggest substrains within a breed may be technically the same breed while being different dogs altogether.
How many show standard dogs would pass working dog field trials in the same breed? Not very many. They may be 'the same dogs' but they are indeed very different.
If I am wrong about this you should be able to buy a cheap dink quarter horse on ksl in the morning and be selling its semen for $40,000 a vial by afternoon. After all a quarter horse is a quarter horse, and a pit bull is a pit bull right?
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POST 9
I'm with ya buddy just illustrating the many things in this world, such as dogs, which can have catastrophic consequence from misuse. I tried to spread it out and throw water, pools, hunting, and guns into the mix. I will stop abusing alcohol this way now.
Pop a top for me buddy.
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POST 10
Thank you tag for restoring my faith in human intellegence. I don't have to get out the jumbo crayons now.
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POST 11
Again, Devil's advocate.
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POST 12
Eel. You need to re-read my posts. They can be summarized as follows.
1. I don't like pits, don't trust them, would never have one. If someone else does, more power to them. If something catastrophic happens, they should be ultimately held accountable.
2. If something negative results from the ownership of them it is the liability of the owner. As such from a legislative standpoint, we should go after negligent ownership and not limit our liberties with breed specific bans.
3. The term pit bull loosely encompasses a plethora of individual dog breeds. Many of which do not even remotely resemble the American Pit Bull Terrier or Staffordshire Bull Terrier.
4. Many preconceived notions surround the pit bull some of which are factually based and some of which are knee jerk reactions.
5. In the large scheme of things, there are many recreational activities exposing those engaged as well as innocent third parties to far greater danger. In the event there is an outcry for the greater good of society, are we willing to chip away at those also?? Or does the crusade of public safety conclude where our own dislikes stop and interests start?
6. The primary purpose of my last youtube post was to illustrate that in spite of all the 'experts' notions that these dogs are good for one purpose and one purpose only, to wit, take over and dominate the world one throat at a time, there are actually a lot that have been utilized for highly trained and certified service dogs. The secondary purpose was to watch a bunch of guys get their knickers in a bunch.
7. I prefer self control over government control. Government control can kick in once the individual manifests the lack of self control.
