Poachers

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buffalo

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Bear poaching results in felony convictions
BLANDING, UTAH ? On Tuesday, Feb. 14, 2006, two Blanding juveniles were convicted of three counts of wanton destruction of protected wildlife after shooting three bears without a permit. Seventh District Juvenile Court Judge Mary Manly found the teens guilty of three felony counts apiece; and sentenced each one to 30 days detention, 600 hours of community service, $1500.00 restitution, and $450.00 in fines.

Convictions stem from an incident on November 12, 2005, when the boys participated in a bear pursuit exercise for dogs. After the pursuit ended and the dogs and handlers had vacated the area, the boys shot the treed sow and her two cubs and left them to waste. Utah Division of Wildlife Resources' Conservation Officer Chris Rhea received a report about the dead bears and after a follow-up investigation, identified the shooters and obtained their confessions of guilt.

Black bear poaching is serious crime with serious consequences. The combined penalties in this case amount to 60 days detention, 1,200 hours of community service, $3,000 in restitution and $900 in fines. If that isn't enough, both boys become "restricted persons" and cannot possess firearms for hunting or sport. Even if their criminal records are expunged sometime in the future, they still face years of hunting privilege revocation.

If you witness a wildlife violation, please call your public safety dispatcher or the "Help Stop Poaching Hotline" at: 1-800-662-DEER. Wildlife is a heritage, enjoyed by and belonging to us all. Let's not allow ourselves to be victimized by the lawless actions of a very small minority
 
Hopefully those punks will have learned their lesson. The fines, restitution and community service could have been doubled though.
ROY
 
seems like kind of a slap on the wrist to me. can they have licenses again in their lives i wonder. they shouldn't. at least for a long time.
 
Yeah I too think they got off easy , should have lost their hunting rights , FOREVER !!!
 
Actually,

The rest of the story is that they got off the hook. Someone or some group stepped in and paid off all their fines and bought out their community service.

The rumor I heard was that people in town took up a collection and donated money to get them off the hook. Not sure if that is true, I also heard it was a private individual that stepped in.

But either way, they basically got off the hook for no fines and no community service. Makes a guy wonder if it would have been the same story had they caught them shooting a couple of trophy bull elk.

I've heard lots of talk from some locals and it seems some pretty bad crap is going on down there in the Monticello Blanding area. This was certainly not an isolated incident.
 
I'm wondering if that would have worked for a couple of catholics??

JB

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
--Benjamin Franklin 1759
 
Listen, what they did in the above insident, is very minor in comparison to what has been done to fellow citizens and the sentence is comparable and less.
That is a pretty harsh sentence IMO. You folks don't want your kids spending time in a juvinile detention center trust me having worked in one.
Jeez we have all heard of allot worse, remember the Bronco? the pedophile pop star?.
Sorry but they were just a few black bears. Some sort of restitution and community hours sends a better message concerning values.
If the community actually did what HD say's than good on them especialy if they were part of the problem. Can't see how community support would hurt a couple youth who just ##### up royaly? Throwing them to the wolves is not a good option.
 
> Sorry but they were just
>a few black bears. >

No need to apologize horseshoe, they were just a few black bears. Maybe this afternoon I'll go out and poach me a few deer.......then maybe tommorrow a few elk......just to watch them die of course. Who knows, if I'm caught, I'm sure that some anonymous big money donor will step in and pay all my fines too!
 
horseshoe,

Don't you think these kids would have learned anything from this incident and chalked it up to one of "Life's Lessons"? They could have learned a lot from this with some stiff fines and community service. Should we have let them off the hook just because it was just a few bears? What if next time it's "just a family" they decide to poach/murder? They missed out on a learning opportunity and it's a shame.
 
Stiff fines and community service is the way these things should be handled--not turning young men or women into crimminals. Marking a young man for life and limited his future is wrong in my opinion, as bears, lions, bucks, bulls or any animal will be repaced in time--a couple kids future won't. (heck they can have my buck or bull)

I remember when the Director for UDWR came to the public Wildlife Board meetings asking for support to bump poaching offenses to a felony. The Director told us (early 90s) that they would only use the felony charge on hard core poachers. The example they used was three young men in Vernal Utah that had killed and wasted nearly 80 animals if memory serves: bighorn sheep, eagle, deer, etc.). Well, now it seems UDWR has used the felony charge on anybody that breaks a game law for a guarnteed conviction on lesser charges. And it doesn't surprise me one bit!

Recently in Utah, three young men were charged with running and treeing bears out of season. To my knowledge, they didn't kill anything. Yet one of young men had three felony charges that may mark him for life. What gives?

I certainly hope that no young man or woman's life is destroyed over felony poaching charges on my account.....cause I don't support that. Community service and fines (giving something back) gets my vote.

Ike
 
Very, very well said Ike. If these guys had been 25 years old they would not get an ounce of sympathy from me. These were young kids and I can't see giving them felony records at this age for this crime. BIG fines and LONG community service then it's over and let them become good citizens. A good stretch of probation wouldn't hurt either.

JMO.

JB

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
--Benjamin Franklin 1759
 
> I don't believe for
>one minute you, nor anybody
>else in the West can
>getrdone any better than me!
>
>
>Ike


Ike, you're truly one of a kind! :7

Let me fill in a few more details for those that aren't as familiar with the case. These kids were with a group of houndsmen that had a reputation not leaving anything alive in a tree. The thing that was so different about this hunt, however, was that they had the local game warden tagging along with them.......so of course they had to walk away from this particular tree. Nevertheless, these kids hung around back at the trucks while the dogs were being loaded and UNTIL THE GAME WARDEN WAS GONE, then they hiked back into the tree and killed the sow and her two cubs.

So this wasn't a spontaneous whim, it was a deliberate, calculated act on their part. Why else would these boys hike back to the tree with gun in hand?? They had plenty of time to think about what they were going to do on the way back. The real question in my mind is did these kids act alone, or were they carrying out instructions from the adults in the group?? Where did they learn this behavior??

Sorry lads, but I can't look beyond what they've done just because of their age in this case. Apparently the judge, who listened to all the evidence, agrees. Like they say, if you can't do the time, don't do the crime.
 
Kevin,

And how about the three young men in Vernal that were catching and releasing bears out of season all summer long kevin, should they have had the felony charges as well? After all, they were running when others couldn't and had made a "BIG BRAG," and I was told by the officer he needed to make an example. Maybe they should have hung them on main street at high noon for wanting to hunt their dogs huh?

(That comment I made back to buffalo was well desired kevin, if he or you anybody else doesn't think I'm for real--and you guys are truly one of a kind as well kevin)

ike
 
>Kevin,
>
>And how about the three young
>men in Vernal that were
>catching and releasing bears out
>of season all summer long
>kevin, should they have had
>the felony charges as well?
>
>ike

Ikester,

Unlike yourself, I just don't have a lot of sympathy for game violators. Look, EVERYBODY is better off if they just obey the law. But for those that choose not to, they shouldn't be b!tching about the consequences when they get caught. Like I said earlier, if you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Oh, and BTW, just an editor's note, I think the word you wanted in the above post was "deserved," not "desired." No need to thank me, sometimes I struggle with my grammar too. ;-)
 
Kevin,

It's funny you don't have any sympathy for those three kids that ran out of season on bears all summer when your ole buddy emailed me years back saying he does that on private ground all summer long? I suppose many of us have selective acceptance of the law huh?

And thanks for getting me straightened out on that "deserved" thing, cause lord knows I deserved it.

Tree'em like I does,
Ike
 
I just wanted to clear up a few things that Mr. Kevin D Stated. I for one em part of that hound group that he was talking about that is known for never leaving a animal in a tree. That part is correct for the most part. The part I wanted to clear up is that never have I been under a tree where the animal was shot that did not get tagged by the shooter so we may kill everything we tree but not without a tag nor was it done illegely. The second thing i wanted to say is that both of these kids took out loans and are paying them back in full plus interest. I dont blame these kids one bit for what they have done. I have heard alot of others say on other message boards that the community ought to run these kids out of town. well let me tell you they would have been disliked and heckled a hell of alot more if they would have let these three bears go and the community would have found out about it. It is a shoot on sight for all predators thats just the way of thinking here in this corner of the state. So what they though they did would make the community proud and praise them. But it backfired on them and now they have to pay. In my dealings with these kids wich i would say is on a day to day baises i honestly believe that they have learned from there mistake. Just having there hunting licences revoked for seven years is enough to make them realize what they did was wrong. i agree with ike these kids punishment was harsh in my opinion. There is no need to scar up these kids record at such a young age.
 
I just wanted to clear up a few things that Mr. Kevin D Stated. I for one em part of that hound group that he was talking about that is known for never leaving a animal in a tree. That part is correct for the most part. The part I wanted to clear up is that never have I been under a tree where the animal was shot that did not get tagged by the shooter so we may kill everything we tree but not without a tag nor was it done illegely. The second thing i wanted to say is that both of these kids took out loans and are paying them back in full plus interest. I dont blame these kids one bit for what they have done. I have heard alot of others say on other message boards that the community ought to run these kids out of town. well let me tell you they would have been disliked and heckled a hell of alot more if they would have let these three bears go and the community would have found out about it. It is a shoot on sight for all predators thats just the way of thinking here in this corner of the state. So what they though they did would make the community proud and praise them. But it backfired on them and now they have to pay. In my dealings with these kids wich i would say is on a day to day baises i honestly believe that they have learned from there mistake. Just having there hunting licences revoked for seven years is enough to make them realize what they did was wrong. i agree with ike these kids punishment was harsh in my opinion. There is no need to scar up these kids record at such a young age.
 
The fact is that some years back hunters and wildlife groups really started pushing for harsher, tougher penalties for poaching. They didn't push for harsher penalties and fines for adults poaching, it was for poachers, period.

I know of a guy that shot an eagle and they drilled him hard, every bit as hard as if he'd poached a 380 bull elk. Most or many of the judges nowadays are anti hunt anyway, so hoping for sympathy on a hunting charge is a long shot at best.

My buddy stood before a judge as he was pronounced guilty and the judge said, "You shouldn't be hunting to begin with. It's morally wrong."

We all have our opinions about what is harsh, too harsh, or not harsh enough. But the fact is, most judges these days are not hunter friendly so you'd better be prepared for the worst when you stand before one of them.

I know of people who have done things I thought were "minor" and been drilled hard for it. And I'm certain had they poached deer or elk people would be in an UPROAR.

But the fact is, we pushed hard for stiff laws for poaching and we got 'em. Now if you dance you better be ready to pay the fiddler. Because if you are hoping to get a judge that's a big hunter and might be sympathetic to your plight, that's a real long shot.

More than likely you'll get a liberal anti-hunter in a black robe that will drill you with whatever the law allows. And it sounds like Felonies are now the going rate...

But tell those boys not to worry... a guy gets used to those felonies on their record and after awhile you can't even keep track of them. Trust me. ;-)
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-27-06 AT 02:54PM (MST)[p]>Listen, what they did in the above insident, is very minor in >comparison to what has been done to fellow citizens and the >sentence is comparable and less.
>That is a pretty harsh sentence IMO. You folks don't want your >kids spending time in a juvinile detention center trust me >having worked in one.
>Jeez we have all heard of allot worse, remember the Bronco? the >pedophile pop star?.
>Sorry but they were just a few black bears. Some sort of >restitution and community hours sends a better message >concerning values.
>If the community actually did what HD say's than good on them >especialy if they were part of the problem. Can't see how >community support would hurt a couple youth who just ##### up >
>royaly? Throwing them to the wolves is not a good option.

Give me a freaking break! Yeah they messed up royally and they should pay royally for it too! I don't care how good they actually are! They committed a crime and the law demands that justice be met. We are talking about a bigger issue here than "just a few black bears". It's about respect for the laws of our country and order in society. I am sorry if the punishment is harsh and that they will be marked forever as felons - but that is what they are. What they did is no different than robbing $1500 at gunpoint from a liquor store or 7-11. In fact, to me it is worse. They killed to watch something that was at the time, defenseless, die. I hope they had fun watching those bears fall to the ground because that's the only reason they even pulled the trigger. They have no value for wildlife at all and that means that they really don't value human life all that much either and the next step is not that far off. It becomes easier and easier to do the wrong things after you have done it for a while and attitudes like this are actually enabling them to become CAREER CRIMINALS! You think you are advocating fairness for them but what you are actually advocating is that they should have no responsibility for their actions. Do they deserve a fair trial? Absolutely. Do they deserve adequate representation? Absolutely. But do we as a society deserve to let them get off virtually scott free for a horrible, violent, firearm related crime? Absolutely not! If these rumors are true that their fines and community service were paid for them then it is a crying shame and an injustice to the people of the state of Utah. If I were that judge and found out about it - I would revoke the sentence of restitution and community service and commute it to juvenile detention, because obviously society is telling these boys that their crimes are "OK" and "Not that serious" and we have a responsibility to tell them otherwise. This stupid "boys will be boys" mentality should not be put up with. How do I know this? How do I know the path these young men are headed down? Well I happen to personally know the young men involved in the previously cited case...

"I remember when the Director for UDWR came to the public Wildlife Board meetings asking for support to bump poaching offenses to a felony. The Director told us (early 90s) that they would only use the felony charge on hard core poachers. The example they used was three young men in Vernal Utah that had killed and wasted nearly 80 animals if memory serves: bighorn sheep, eagle, deer, etc.). "

These were no ordinary young men. They were addicted to killing and didn't care one bit if an animal suffered at their hands or not. They killed deer, elk, bighorns, eagles, hawks, sheep and most despicably - wild horses. Yes wild horses - just to watch them die, in fact - and I heard this directly from one of the young men involved - one of them was purposefully gut shooting them to watch them run and to see how far they would go before they collapsed. Their killing spree started long before they were even old enough to possess a valid Utah big game license. The most notorious of them was wanted in four other states for wildlife offenses and at the time of their arrest he was 16 years old. He was tried and convicted as a felon but he spent no time in jail and his restitution was very minimal and his fines were paid for by his daddy. What a way to raise a young man. He has subsequently been in and out of the state prison system for drug and alchohol convictions, spouse and child abuse, and other crimes. By the time he was caught - it was already too late. I am sure he has lost track of the felonies on his record too.

I hope that this was the first offense for these young men. I hope they learned their lesson and I hope they had to work to pay off their fines and restitution. I hope their 30 days in juvinile detention taught them some important lessons. Ideally it probably shouldn't have taken a lot to reform them, but sadly as experience dictates, we probably haven't heard the last of them - and it won't be because "we turned them in to criminals" by labeling them as felons, but because we taught them that their actions weren't that serious by denying them the consecuences. Yes I think its sad that they will be felons, but I think it is sadder still that they did something to earn that title.



ROY
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-27-06 AT 04:40PM (MST)[p]Mort said, "It is a shoot on sight for all predators thats just the way of thinking here in this corner of the state. So what they though they did would make the community proud and praise them."

My question is, "what kind of messed up community is that?" You have got to be kidding me. The IQ is equivalent to shoe size. We need to teach Conservation apparently.
 
Zigga,

What kind of messed up community is that? Have you ever been to Blanding? ;-) Just kidding!

But you mentioned the IQ thing and you are right on the money there. The local Fish Cop WAS WITH THEM AT THE TREE!!

I am not kidding, the fish cop was hunting with them and was at the bear tree with them. They waited until he left, shot the bears and just left them there under the tree.

They might be a lot of things but rocket scientists is not on that list. ;-)
 
I'm not sure if I'm more upset with what these kids did or the rediculous statement that Mort75 posted! Sorry Mort, these kids are not heros in anyones book. They got exactly what they deserved. Here in CO. there is a law called the Sampson law. It is a MANDATORY $10,000 fine for any trophy animal poached. So yea, they got off way too easy.
 
Mort75 said:

> I have heard alot of others say on other message boards that >the community ought to run these kids out of town. well let me >tell you they would have been disliked and heckled a hell of >alot more if they would have let these three bears go and the >community would have found out about it. It is a shoot on sight >for all predators thats just the way of thinking here in this >corner of the state. So what they though they did would make >the community proud and praise them. But it backfired on them >and now they have to pay. In my dealings with these kids wich i >would say is on a day to day baises i honestly believe that >they have learned from there mistake.

What an idiotic statment. It may be shoot on sight down there for coyotes but when you are talking about a protected species then it is illegal and it is a crime. If those bears are problem bears then it needs to be reported to the DWR who have Depredation Specialists who will take care of the problem according to DWR guidelines. This was no case of predator control. They waited for the game warden to leave, went back and killed a sow and two cubs in a tree. It is truly despicable and I do hope they learned from their mistake, but it looks like from your comments that the whole community is lacking a few ethics lessons.

ROY
 
Horseshoe -

OJ was never CONVICTED of that crime in a criminal court - guilty though he may have been. These boys were convicted in a criminal court and a sentence was handed down to them. There is a big big big big big big difference. Also if you do remember correctly OJ was found liable for the death of Nichole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman in Civil Court and was ordered to pay the families $33,500,000in punitive damages. But just like these boys, he has found ways to get out of paying for his crimes, like moving to Florida where your home cannot be seized to pay off debt or claiming that 100% of his income comes from his pension, which also cannot be touched, and signing autographs strictly for cash which is difficult to trace also.

ROY
 
Does Simpson have a felony charge? They did the crime are doing the time how be it a bit harsh. Much more likely to influence these kids thru family and comunity rather than harsh sentence but folks prefer to let the state teach and punish. If those kid's were on the bubble before then Juvy will push em right over. Betcha Ben Lilly never shot a sow and cubs and left them rot. Different times now but are we really different men? The choice between Mercy and Justice is easy.
 
The choice between mercy and justice is easy huh? And by your comments I can see you are pretty much leaning to the mercy side.

So I can trust you to plead for mercy on my behalf when I get drunk, get behind the wheel and smash into your best friend?

Glad to know I can count on you to stand before the judge and plead for mercy on my behalf. I thank you in advance Horseshoe!

I'm certain you didn't mean choose mercy on wildlife violations but justice if a drunk driver put your best friend in the ground, or if someone harmed you personally.

I assume you meant to lean towards mercy across the board. Just keep that in mind amigo. When some thug steals something you've worked long and hard to acquire and they catch the slimeball, remember that the decision between justice and mercy is an easy one and I'm sure that criminal will appreciate you stepping up and pleading for mercy on his behalf.

Deciding on what to eat for breakfast is easy. Drawing the line between justice and mercy isn't easy my friend. It seems easy in some instances but we all like mercy until someone wrongs us and then we want JUSTICE!!!
 
So who did the kid's wrong? Us or the bears? Seems like what is a fine line for many of you guys is a chasm to me. Crimes against fellow humans is a whole different ball game but you are not making that distinction.
 
Horseshoe,

So let me just understand for sure what you are saying, because maybe I'm reading this wrong.

But what it sounds like you are saying is we should treat crimes differently depending on if they are committed against a human?

So mercy for these guys because their crime wrong some bears and not us? But the full wrath of justice for anyone that commits a crime against another person?

That's what you are saying but I just want to make sure that is how you really feel, because maybe I'm reading it wrong.

So the wrath of justice to the terrorists of 9-11, but if they'd waited until 2:00am when the buildings were empty then the crime is just committed against a building, not a person... so mercy for them.

Clearly a crime committed against a house or a structure is different than a crime committed against a person. Or I can steal your car and that's OK cuz it's a crime against your car, not you. Car, bear, house, cougar... all the same. Non human.

I don't know if their sentence was too harsh or too light. All I know is they broke the law and they got what they got.

We all kind of decide what is important to us and what isn't. PETA would probably come and burn those kids houses down if they got wind of this. But for you and others, easy come, easy go.

I guess I agree with Kevin. If you can't pay the band, you damn sure better not dance.
 
> So who did the kid's
>wrong? Us or the bears?
>Seems like what is a
>fine line for many of
>you guys is a chasm
>to me. Crimes against fellow
>humans is a whole different
>ball game but you are
>not making that distinction.

Dude - you are not getting the point. This wasn't just a crime against bears. They are beside the point. And yes it was a crime against humans! It was a crime against society and against life in general. When they killed those bears they stole them from us - the public. As I said before, there is no difference between what they did and robbing a liquor store at gunpoint - they used a firearm to commit a felony - a crime against the state, the county and their taxpayers. The law should be blind here - regardless of what was taken or whether or not it has ethical implications. And if you ask me - it looks like it was society that did them wrong, long before they even went out and treed those bears. They decided to take matters into their own hands and they crossed a line that does carry serious consequences - consequences which that same society is trying to abrogate because evidently they feel guilty because their myopic cretian point of view is what caused the whole thing in the first place.

ROY
 
Wonder when a houndsmen is gonna get jailed for Culling a dog? Moral relitivism bites.
 
Hell, perhaps we ought to just decriminalize all wildlife violations because, afterall, they are only animals. Piss on the that poor law abiding bastard that's been patiently waiting to legally draw a tag, cuz I know where a couple of 400 bull elk have been wintering and if they haven't already shed their antlers, they're toast!! Where's my bullets??
 
I'll bet horseshoe would have a different opinion of the poaching ring that was going on in that same part of the state a few years back. When a group of teenage boys were killing all of the trophy bucks they could and just watching them drop. That was a true trophy area for deer and hundreds of them were poached. They got off with out even a slap on the hand. Or would that be just a few deer. No big deal right.
 
I think that they got what they deserved.If you look at the situation they didnt just kill 3 bears they killed alot more than that. If you think about it the sow could have had more cubs and then when the cubs got older they could of had cubs for years so the damage they did will go on for generations so I think they got what they had comin.
 
Hey I think Horseshoe is really on to something with this dog culling comment.

The vet had to put one of my horses down last week, I wonder if I can turn him in on a felony charge on the grounds of "moral relativism"?

Sure the horse was old and sick, but that bastard still put the needle in him and killed him. I'd like to see him rot in jail for that. :)

Bottom line is the same people trying to "defend" them would be screaming the loudest if they wacked a couple of bighorn sheep rams or something with antlers. "WE WANT JUSTICE!!!"

But it was just a couple of bears so they should get mercy, not justice. Your just sore cuz they wacked some no good predators and got drilled for it.

Well, life ain't fair gang. I know a kid that went deer hunting when he was 16 and accidentally wacked a 6X6 bull in front of about 4 witnesses. Law enforcement agreed it was a mistake, they helped pack the elk out and the kid got fined $100 bucks. I guess that judge figured the decision between justice and mercy was an easy one.

So life ain't fair. You win some, you lose some. These kids got caught and drilled. But whoever poached 14 deer along the road side and left them to rot in Diamond Fork never got caught.

Oh well, what can ya do? Life just ain't fair sometimes. :)
 
hounddawgjr how many times have you seen anyone take a dog to the vet to get culled because they were worthless basterds. In my oppinion your horse was a diffrent story. it was a horse you loved and cared for. A dog that is getting culled on the other hand is diffrent. they are hated for being dumb and not worth a #####. I know in my life i have never taken a dog to the vet to get put down nor ever heard of anyone taken one to get put down. We all do it are self so i believe horseshoe is making a great point.
 
Mort no all do not do it . But there are ways for taking care of hounds that are nopt desirable for one reason or another. Some just prefer the cheaper easier method.
 
Mort,

You guys are forgetting one important point. If I cull one of my dogs the key word is MY DOG. I own the dog, it's mine and I'll do whatever the hell I want with it.

Those bears belonged to everyone, sportsmen and non sportsmen.

If you think poaching three bears is the same as culling a worthless dog that you don't want, then things are even more screwed up down there than I imagined and now I think I can see why with that line of thinking.

No matter how you guys try to dress it up, and package it up all pretty and nice, they are still just a couple of poachers that got busted. They are probably fortunate that it was bears and not elk.

And if they think it's unfair that they got felonies, I guess they should have thought of that before they pulled the trigger huh?

Life's tough all over, for man and beast. 2nd offense will only be harsher. Let's hope they learned their lesson.
 
Sooo, why is there a difference between wildlife and wildlife. If these kids killed a wolf or 2 they'd be hero's in your eyes. Everyone here talks the mean talk about the 3 S's when it comes to those mangy ba$tards. Yet you guys get your panties in a knot over some mangy a$$ bears????
 
I'm refering to the 'Hang Em High' attitude that many seem to have in this thread. The attitude that these kids have committed the unforgivable sin, when many here have done many worse things when they were kids or even now that they are adults. Hounddawg trys to make this just as bad as driving drunk and killing someone. Give me a Break.
 
I don't know if it is wrong to poach bears, but I do know that fowl language and symbols such as $ will not be tolerated on the new family friendly MM. :)

Forum rules. The moderators have been showing their badges and flexing their authority.
 
If you are offended then send an alert. :)

Just find this thread a little bit 'over the top' especially coming from the likes of Hounddawg. Isn't he the one always braggin' bout poachin' sheep on the Timp???? Maybe these kids were just trying to be like him. He is a Legend you know? :) :)
 
BCBOY. There is a heck of a big difference between a wolf and a bear. Wolves can decimate a population of deer, elk, and moose in a very short time. Just look at the north yellowstone elk herd. their numbers went from around 22,000 in the early 1990's to around 9000 today.
Another difference is that the bears were not "Reintroduced."

Poaching bears is not the same as driving drunk or killing someone, but it is against the law. I think those boys got just what they deserved. I also think they, as well as others in that area, will think twice before they do something illegal again.

By the way "MODERATOR" Real intelligent with the $'S.
 
>I'm refering to the 'Hang Em
>High' attitude that many seem
>to have in this thread.
>The attitude that these kids
>have committed the unforgivable sin,
>when many here have done
>many worse things when they
>were kids or even now
>that they are adults. Hounddawg
>trys to make this just
>as bad as driving drunk
>and killing someone. Give me
>a Break.

I'll agree with you on that BCBOY, as people are more important than animals. I've always felt the elevation of crimes against animals to the same (or near)level as crimes against man was wrong. Matter fact, I'd say the animal rights gang would be pretty happy knowing a potential young hunter had lost his hunting rights, rights to own a gun, rights to vote, and potential career in the work force because he'd harmed an animal. And I'll agree, if they can prosecute a person for starving and not watering a dog why can't they do that to some houndsman that culls young dogs?

I've heard it said it takes a community to raise a child, and therefore the community where these young men were raised failed as a group. The roll models that influenced these three young men should have to share some of the burden and blame as well for their negative impact.

But those attitudes of shoot, shovel and shutup (the 3s) did not find it's origin in San Juan County. I've had plenty of old-time farmers give me a go to heck look because I'd released a bear and not killed it. But it's easy for people my age to not fall prey to peer pressure, not so with young people.

What those three kids did was way wrong, and there should be a price to pay for each of them, but making criminals out of them on first ofense cases and limiting their futures is the wrong punishment in my opinion.

I will say that I'm glad I don't have to decide how to prosecute or how to punish--guess it's easy judging people from the sidelines huh?

Keep'em treed!
ike
 
Elkantlers,
Obviously, it's do as I say not as I do eh? Both are breaking the law are they not. The big difference is by killing a wolf you are not only breaking your state laws but also your federal laws. I would imagine there are some harsher consquences by breaking federal laws isn't there?
You are deceiving your self if you don't think bears are hard on the deer, elk and moose herds. They really do a number on the fawns and calves. Bears are not just your nice little grass eaters. They are a SERIOUS PREDATOR. In these parts, the CO's probably wouldn't even come to investigate a case of the 3 S's on bears.

Ike,
Very well put. What these kids need is some proper role models, sportsmen and woman who can show them the true meaning of sportsmanship. Throwing the book at them isn't going to acheive that. It'll probably just make things worse.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-30-06 AT 02:14AM (MST)[p] Geez Ike and BCBOY ,talk about talking out your butts. I know you are an expert on everything Ike,but let me enlighten you just a little. First of all, the punishment is not the same as man and animal. If the boys had planned to kill a man, they could get the death penalty. Instead they got a low felony like Possesion of a small amount of Marijuans.

Next,a person doesnt loose his right to carry a gun on all felonies.It has to be specified.And they boys did a little more than harm the bears,they killed them.

As far as the starving the dog thing.That is cruel and mistreatment of an animal .Culling a dog isnt cruel unless you beat them with a bat or something.Geez,the dog pounds and humane society's let the air out of dogs every day.

As far as making criminals out of them.Geez almighty Ike and BCBOY,you make it sound it was our fault they shot those bears..

Instead of DUI,How about if those boys had Burglarized 3 homes and got 3 counts of felonies against them...would it still be our fault and not theirs? Peer pressure etc.They would still have felony records .

If I shot a wolf ,I dont think a lot of people would be that mad at me.I would still have the book thrown at me .Thats why a lot of wolves have been saved because of such harsh penalties.

I dont know if you have kids Ike and BCBOY,but the community doesn't raise my kids,my wife and I do.I do agree that the parents should share the blame.Out here,parents of juveniles can be held liable up to 1500.00 for any crime their kids commit..

Im not saying hang them.Im saying to hold them accountable for their actions. Just because you dont believe in a law is not a loop hole to get out of it.

Im willing to bet that if they are law abiding citizens in the future,they could get the felonies expunged off their records at a later date.


Just a note,statistics say that 70 percent of crimes in the US are committed by juveniles.That includes violent crimes.....I hope the boys change their ways despite the parents and community....Good luck to ya Coop
 
coop...."As far as making criminals out of them.Geez almighty Ike and BCBOY,you make it sound it was our fault they shot those bears.."


Well, it surely isn't any of my fault that those kids did what they did coop, and most likely wasn't any of your fault either. However, kids spend lots more time with their friends, teachers and other outside influences than they do with their parents by that age. And it just isn't true coop that other people in the community don't have profound impacts on our kids. I'll agree that in the end each of us have to take credit or responsibility for our actions...that's just a fact of life. My point was lets not brand a person for life for killing an animal--and that attitude of mine has not changed!

the ikester
 
> Everyone here
>talks the mean talk about
>the 3 S's when it
>comes to those mangy ba$tards.


Please, Mr. moderator, don't resort to straw man tactics. I have never espoused the 3 S's and I am disappointed that you would mischaractorize me that way.

You know it's funny, but the topic of conversation was whether or not justice was served in the case by the youths getting a felony conviction. Even though there were differing opinions on the subject, there was never any mudslinging or personal attacks.....everything was above board. I think the participants on both sides in this debate should be commended for their ethics. That is until your post Mr. Moderator. Yours was the first post that I thought went down into the mud. Like I said, I'm disappointed in you.
 
It's up to those kids whether or not they are branded for life. As juveniles, they can get their criminal records expunged at some point in the future.........so long as they commit no further felonies. It's totally up to them.
 
Kevin,

You comments about no personal attacks and only good, clean debate simple don't hold water.

"Geez Ike and BCBOY ,talk about talking out your butts. I know you are an expert on everything Ike, but let me enlighten you just a little." coop

I'll agree debate on issues is a good thing, but bad mouthing others to make your point isn't any part of good clean debate..are you saying coop's comments aren't confrontational? you guys need to learn to make your points without attacking others!

It's OK to debate issues but it isn't OK to make slaps at others hoping to make a point!

ike
 
Okay, I have to side with Dawg, Kevin and a few others here.

Generally when I read posts about poaching incidents where suspects were apprehended, most responders are outraged at the "lack" of punishment handed out. However, this post seems opposite (except for a few) and somewhat "justifiable" in the suspect's actions.

Juvenile, adult, elderly........it shouldn't matter. If they were old enough to hike back to the bears, plan their assault, and carry out the crime, they are old enough to know better and thus, suffer the consequences.

People need to start being responsible for their actions. Was the punishment harsh? Yes. Was it (punishment) acceptable based on the way the crime was carried out? I beleive it was. Hard lesson learned. I truly hope the punishment detours their ways and prevents further acts.

Of course it's just my opinion. Maybe I'm tarnished having been enforcing such laws for 20 years now. But the crime described is simply a slaughter, IMO.

BOHNTR )))---------->
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-30-06 AT 08:04AM (MST)[p]Folks the bottom line is this

Yes they killed the bears--stupid kids do stupid things--we all have right? The judge certainly laid down the fines hopefully to set an example what could happen when you do stupid things. Personally the fine and punishment was just.



What is totally wrong--even more stupid is that the local so called sportsman, a city councilman, former LDS bishop, and other so called local leaders paid the fine--in cash to the county court. There was no 'taking out a loan' or having parents 'take out a second mortgage' to pay the fines, it was all these good honest hard working citizens of Blanding. Way to go citizens, you just raised the bar for the jacka$$ award of setting a fine example for your youth.

As long as we have this kind of behavior?what is the incentive to our youth for obeying honoring and sustaining the law?

Oh and Trent AKA Mort--your real smart admiting to your stupid mistakes here on a public form that the UDWR monitors regulary--you might just have set the bar even higher...


Shawn
 
BCBOY - you don't understand either. It's not about bears or wolves or anything else. It is about crime. And no - it is not much different than drunk driving. A protected species is a protected species - no matter if it is a predator or not. I have friends that run sheep and cattle out west. They can kill all the coyotes they want because they are not a protected species, however if they have a problem with bears, mountain lions, bobcats, etc, then they BY LAW have to call the DWR and a Depredation Specialist has to take care of the problem. They also raise alfalfa, corn, wheat and watermelons. If elk and deer get in their fields, because they are a protected species, BY LAW they have to call the DWR and a Depredation Specialist has to come out and take care of the problem. They just can't take matters into their own hands. Besides, these bears weren't a threat to livestock. They were in a remote area and were treed by dogs in November - just before hibernation. They were slaughtered and wasted, stolen from me John Q. TAXPAYER! It is a serious offense and the hopefully the punishment takes care of the problem, but sadly it has been my experience that it is not enough. That's why I originally said that the fines and restitution should have been doubled. I think 30 days in juvi was OK. And if the community ends up paying their fines for them it is a despicalbe shame.
ROY
 
I'm actually wondering if they weren't tried as adults. The reason I ask is because juvenile records are usually sealed and not made public knowledge as they were in this case. Even in law enforcement it takes an act of god to get access to juvenile records. I'm wondering if anyone knows wether or not if they were tried as adults????
If they were tried as adults, then the prosecuters and the judge must have felt that the youth's actions met that requirement. This could be because of prior issues with the court regarding similar issues, which is generally the case.
IMO, they got what they deserved if this is the case , which it also appears to be. They don't run newspaper articles on juvenile court decisions. I think they were tried as adults. If anyone knows any different let me know. If this is the case, they will not be able to have their records expounged. However a plead in obeyance will can result in having it removed after successfully completing the obeyance agreement.
Also Steve, if hounddawg had "actually" killed any sheep like he has ocasionally joked about, I highly doubt the FNAWS boys would let him survive. I would be seeing after his daily care if that were the case....
I also have to agree on one point...had they been trophy bulls or deer, there would be public outrage across the board. That is sorta the mentality of this state. I guess you can only have a true appreciation of predators after pursuing them for years. No I'm not implying anyone doesn't have that appreciation who has responded to this thread. However the general consensus of this state is that predators are the cause of all big game reductions or failures to thrive and make a come back....
 
Cat--

They were not tried as adults. The fines and punishments are not sealed--just the names. The UDWR actually did the original press release, the local paper carried the press release--everyone knows who these little $hit$ are. and despite what Trent AKA Mort might lead you to believe they are not local heros to most just to a few of the redneks in town that think they are doing the deer a big favor by killing every lion and bear they tree.

Shawn
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-30-06 AT 08:34AM (MST)[p]>LAST EDITED ON Mar-30-06
>AT 08:04?AM (MST)
>


>Oh and Trent AKA Mort--your real
>smart admiting to your stupid
>mistakes here on a public
>form that the UDWR monitors
>regulary--you might just have set
>the bar even higher...
>
>
>Shawn



Yo shawn i want you to show me where i have admitted to my "so called" stupid mistakes anywhere on this here forum. If you aint got the proof to back up your posts you shouldnt post at all.
 
MOST of the time when folks are caught at doing something wrong, It isn't the first time. And kinda reading between the lines on what Mort said, well I'm betting that these young men....yes I said men, have done this before. Question is where did they learn it? Doesn't matter one bit. These aren't 6 year old boys. These are young men that are old enough to drive right? Shoot a gun? Well to me that makes them old enough to take responsibility for their actions. I think they got exactly what they deserve. The thing that bothers me is that our justice system isn't handing out stiffer penalties on murderers, rapists, and child molestors. But that is the system. Screwed up yep I think so. And BC-Boy I use to really like some of your posts, but you kinda riled me on what you said on this one. Not all places are like B.C. where you can drive up the road and look at 11 bears :) Here we have very limited numbers of animals with more than enough roads to access almost every bit, so it isn't like where you live and there are billions of acres of ground to protect wildlife. If you get caught be prepared to accept the punishment....the proclamation clearly states what poaching is.
 
Shawn, Thanks for the clarification. I for one do not believe they are "heros" either. I feel they got what they deserved. The poaching laws are in place for a reason. The penalties are more severe because lesser penalties haven't and don't seem to get anyones attention. Now maybe some people will have a greater understanding so to speak....Chuck.
 
We've all got the right to our opinions. It is my opinion that these kids should have been put in a hunter mentoring program versus juvy detention is all. What the kids did was wrong, no doubt about it, but there are many ways to disperse justice. I personally do not fall into that 'Hang 'Em High' mentality.

I still find it rather odd that some might even joke around on here about poaching sheep and such, and everyone laughs and thinks it's okay. There are stupid people out there that may not get the joke. There are many that talk the talk on here about the 3 S's when it comes to predators. I would think that that is exactly what it is, just talk. When the rubber hits the road would they be still willing to risk it all when they cross paths with a federally protected predator. The question is, if someone does, will you guys jump on the bandwagon and call him a hero, or will you come down on him as hard as you do these kids? So it goes back to my original post. What makes a bear more important than a wolf?
 
BCBOY,

I'll guarantee you that a wolf killer or poacher would get better treatment by this gang than a bear poacher. First off, their sport is running bears and lions not wolves. Then you just wait until a couple of them lose a few hounds to a pack of wolves and the three-S's (shoot, shovel and shut-up) will be better accepted. I'll hide and watch to see what is said when that happens.

442c83305492a1c7.jpg


There appears to be lots of law breakers around here BCBOY, as illegal bait piles are talked about on every street corner. Two years ago I had three guys drive by my camp on the opener of bow season. They had a 55-gallon drum in the back of their truck headed up a main forest service access road at 10:00 AM in the morning. I told the three people sitting next to me what those guys were probably up to.....an hour or so later they came back down the hill and guess what? Yeah, you got it--NO 55 GALLON DRUM in the back of their truck. They even had the nerve to stop in my camp and introduce themselves because I had a dogbox in my truck.

I'm gonna get one of those Garnman Rino GPS units this year and shoot locations and phone them in to the Fish and Game since we're all law law fearing people.

Keep'em treed!
ike
 
How bout this, guess them boys got off easy after all. LOL

"Although the first game preserves in England were established by William the Conqueror at this time, the Saxon was permitted to shoot birds and small beasts in his fields and therefore was allowed to use a blunt arrow, headed with a lead tip or pilum, hence our term pile, or target point. If found with a sharp arrowhead, the so-called broad-head used for killing the king's deer, he was promptly hanged. The evidence against such a poacher was summed up thus in the old legend: Dog draw, stable stand Back berond, bloody hand.


One found following a questing hound, posed in the stand of an archer, carrying game on his back, or with the evidence of recent butchery on his hands, was hanged to the nearest tree by his own bowstring."
 
Those were tough times horseshoe, and must be the reason we got rid of the Kings! Darn, I'll bet a guy would have had to been pretty darn hungry to poach one of the King's deer huh?
ike
 
Thats another thing thats irritating. People accusing others of doing things illegal when they have no proof. These young men were proven guilty. If a person is caught doing something illegal....they better be prepared to face the consequences.
Ike did you ask them guys that had the 55 gallon drum in their truck what was in it? Did you ask them if they did indeed have bait in it if they had an archery bait permit? Or did you just ASSUME as always that they were up to something illegal? Sometimes we read into things before we actually know the truth. Just my .02
 
catman,

No catman, I did not ask those guys what was in the drum or where they left it. It is, however, illegal to bait out of a barrel or any kind of container as you well know catman. Therefore, even if they had had an archery-only bear tag they would have been illegal.

Furthermore, those three guys are all three houndsmen. I realize making assumptions should be left to law enforcement, cause they often times leave a guy in the wrong. LIke I said, in the future I'll just gps the sites and turn it over to law enforcement.....they're better able to sort out the truth than I am.

Hey catman, someone told me you got rid of all your hounds...is that true? what gives?

keep'em treed!
ike
 
Catman,

Furthermore, it's illegal to set a bait seven days before the season starts whether you have a legal bait permit for archery or not.....gotta wait until the season starts. And if it wasn't an illegal bait to run hounds off of but trash, well, the national forest isn't a good place to dump trash either, as those guyus might well hammer a guy.

Ike
 
Ike, Not trying to be mean, just wondering where it says no baiting before season starts. Read the proc. inside and out last year, only tells you when you have to pull your bait after harvesting or the season ends. The forest service down here didn't care. Point me in the right direction if you can as to where in the proc. it states that. Maybe it is in this years regs but was not in last years. Thanks...
 
>Ike, Not trying to be mean,
>just wondering where it says
>no baiting before season starts.
> Read the proc. inside
>and out last year, only
>tells you when you have
>to pull your bait after
>harvesting or the season ends.
> The forest service down
>here didn't care. Point
>me in the right direction
>if you can as to
>where in the proc. it
>states that. Maybe it
>is in this years regs
>but was not in last
>years. Thanks...

Catmando,

Look on page 10, item B, use of bait, under (2)(a) "Bait may be placed only in areas open to hunting and only during the open seasons."

The read I have on that is after season is open and not before?

ike
 
After reading this thread, I cant believe theres anything left. We can forgive and forget until there's nothing left to hunt but jack rabbits. Dont worry about the two young men. In a few years they can publish thier own magazine, Bear Crazy, and be respected bear conservationists.
 
>Ike,
>
>What happened after you turned in
>the illegal baiters? Did
>they prosecute?
>
>
>RJ

Littlespike,

Baiting is a serious offense if you're caught with all the goods Littlespike. Worse case scenario: book a hunter and kill a trophy bear off bait and get caught, loose the bear, loose your license, have to refund hunter's money, have to pay fines, have to worry about felony charges.

A person could end up over $10,000 bucks in the hole and loosing his/her hunting for five to seven years--maybe double if a trophy quality bear is involved. A person could also face federal charges if it happens on Forest Service Lands.

Many people believe illegal baiting is OK on private lands. But that aint what the proclamation says. I have a really good friend that is a CO for DWR who always told me he'd try to show the offender what they did wrong in the proclamation, so I'd recommend a person read it closely and NOT TAKE ANYBODIES WORD FOR ANYTHING!

Keep'em treed!
ike
 
Well,

As much as I love to argue just for the sake of arguin'... I talked to a buddy of mine down in Blanding and I figured I'd better post this info.

There was a rumor going around that the town had pitched in and paid off the debt but I don't think that is true. My buddy said the court gave them the option of paying for the community service and one of the fathers or both paid it off.

That actually makes more sense than a town pitching in to pay off poaching fines. Like I said, I do like a good argument and I love to play devil's advocate, but I think in the end justice was served and I think it's a good thing those felonies will be wiped off their records when they reach 18 or whatever it is.

I did lots of stupid things when I was a teenager and they pretty much all do at that age, but I'm not sure you should have to pay for it the rest of your life.

To be honest a felony is pretty steep for poaching a bear, but I fear a buddy of mine is mostly responsible for that. Some years back he had a real problem obeying game laws and got caught in some similiar activities as this, but with lions.

Well, he had the money to pay the fines and they really had it in for him. A couple of different fish cops told him they were going to push to make poaching a felony and then he'd get what was coming. So I think he might be part of the reason poaching a lion or a bear is now a felony. A BIG part of the reason. ;-)

Anyway, that is what I heard from down that way... is that the families paid the fines and if they are anything like my dad, those boys will be paying most of it back. :)

Like someone said it's easy to judge from a distance and if I was to really think back and try to remember, my guess is I'd have some skeletons in my closet from my teenage years. I know there for a while me and a couple of buddies shot about everything that moved. Shot at is probably the better term.

But I've heard from some locals that they are really pretty good kids and it sounds like they paid. And I really don't believe a kid should have a felony on his record for the rest of his life and have to pay for that mistake everytime he tries to get a job, etc... Not sure it would be fair to have a bright future squashed over a lapse in judgement one day on the mountain.

If we want to make a mistake we pay for the rest of our lives, we just get married, right?

Well, it was fun arguin'... but I don't always argue what I really feel, just like to keep things stirred up. I learned that from KTC.

So I guess those boys really aren't like Osama bin Laden. ;-)

I heard Walker Texas Ranger is gonna be the new fish cop down there in Blanding anyway and we all know how Chuck can clean up a place. ;-)
 
I don't care what you say or how good of kids they are. They are felons and should be held accountable for their actions. If their parents paid their fines then SHAME ON THEM! And yes it is fair to have "a bright future squashed over a lapse in judgement one day on the mountain." It was a pretty big lapse in judgement if you ask me - no different than robbing a liquor store at gunpoint or drunk driving. Thousands of people every day have their lives ruined because of "a lapse in judgement". Quit trying to rationalize and justify their actions.

ROY
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-06-06 AT 08:09AM (MST)[p]Brent--

Not to argue--but your buddy in Blanding hasn't got his story straight--when I get the courts to release the who paid the fine info--it will be out in the paper. The parents didn't pay all of the the bill--they didn't even pay the bigger portion--trust me on this one....

Shawn
 
>I don't care what you say
>or how good of kids
>they are. They are felons
>and should be held accountable
>for their actions. If their
>parents paid their fines then
>SHAME ON THEM! And yes
>it is fair to have
>"a bright future squashed over
>a lapse in judgement one
>day on the mountain." It
>was a pretty big lapse
>in judgement if you ask
>me - no different than
>robbing a liquor store at
>gunpoint or drunk driving. Thousands
>of people every day have
>their lives ruined because of
>"a lapse in judgement". Quit
>trying to rationalize and justify
>their actions.
>
>ROY

Roy, long time ago some folks were out to throw the book at women,she was a law breaker no doubt and her crimes easily incrimidated her to death. The law abiding elders wanted justice and were justified in seeking it by the "law".
John 8:1-11 read it buddy.

Forget who it was that said "all boys are naturaly born poacher"? someone said it or sumthin like it?

You Roy must run with a whole different crowd that us retributes are not priviliged to know cause I don't know anyone that hasn't committed a "Felony". Good for you cause you must be breathing some rare air.Are you lonely up there? And quit comparing it to offeses against humanity cause it is not the same thing those brains that God gave you for common sense!.

Lastly if you were brave enough to read the Bible passage and not declare it irevelent because of such. The "Teacher" was without sin and he told her to go on her way and sin no more. What the hell eh? he could have bust her and had every right according to the law. He didn't so what does that imply?

Punish the kid's, beat them,take there hunting priviliges,give them opportunity for restitution, stick them in a truck with Dawg FGS, at least it has some dignity and they could still be men but a felony charge? sorry it's a irrational ruling.
 
Hell to be honest with you them boys got off pretty easy.

The judge was initially going to revoke their Citizenship and force them to go live in Canada, but even PETA agreed that was harsh.

The judge finally backed away when the Fed. Government intervened. They said sure they could see sending Saddam to live in Canada but the slaughter of thousands of Kurds is different then three bears dying.

So they actually fared pretty well considering the initial sentence that was passed down. :)

Good Lord... Canada. Now that is harsh. :)
 
I am not throwing stones here Horseshoe. There is a big difference between forgiveness and responsibility. If you read the rest of that chapter you will see that He who is without sin did forgive the woman but did not allow her to escape from the consequences of her actions. He did save her from becoming victim to a dead law - a law that was taken up in Him and replaced by a higher law - to which he did hold her accountable, hence the commandment "Go thy way and sin no more." He commanded her to offer a broken heart and a contrite spirit as an offering and restitution for her sin - something that takes a lifetime to achieve - SHE DID NOT ESCAPE THE REPRECUSSIONS OF HER ACTIONS LIKE THESE PUNKS DID IF SOMEONE ELSE PAID THEIR FINE!. Can they achieve forgiveness through the Atonement of Christ - yes they can. Can I forgive them for it? Yes I can - but not until they have answered to the demands of justice. So if someone else paid their fine then justice has been cheated before mercy was able to be meted out. And oh by the way - if within the context of our discussion "being without sin" means never having poached an animal or committed a felony - they guess what - I QUALIFY! And believe me I had plenty of opportunities to have "Lapses in judgement" - I just didn't allow it to happen because I have more common sense than to kill a treed bear to watch if fall to the ground. Again - quit rationalizing and justifying these kids' actions and mollycoddling them into believing that the law doesn't apply equally to all.

ROY
 
Roy, did he stone her? that was the "laws" requirements. There is sumthin about breaking a part of the law is the same as breaking the whole law so I can with good reason conclude that whether in thought or deed you have broke the law and therefore are a lawbreaker makes ##### all difference which law, the wages are the same.
 
Roy,
Find it odd that you didn't find the connection in the story. You are whinning about the kids having the fine paid for them. Didn't the guy who knew no sin do the same for us? Something about Easter I think.

I wonder if you had kids that did something stupid that you wouldn't do the same and help them out of their bind. Our maybe you would just let them do the time for the crime????
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-06-06 AT 06:59PM (MST)[p]Hey Shawn why dont you tell everyone on here why you got fired from the pharmacy. I think you have led us all to believe that you are a perfect law abiding citizen.

Trent Holliday
139 N 500 W
Blanding Ut
435-459-1179

Stop by anytime.
 
Trent--

I'm not sure who you are referning to but I have never worked at an Pharmacy--ever,--sorry to break your heart, burst your bubble, and dissapoint you but I'm pretty sure since I don't know who you are--you more than likely don't know me. Hang in there--I already admited we all do stupid things--I'm no saint that's why I go to church but I sure as shoot'n wouldn't pay some one's fine no matter how heroic it seemed at the time.

Next time I'm in Blanding--I'll be sure to stop by.

Shawn
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-07-06 AT 11:34AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Apr-07-06 AT 11:33?AM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Apr-07-06 AT 11:08?AM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Apr-07-06 AT 11:06?AM (MST)

Horseshoe and BCBOY- again - you are missing the point. (Matthew 22:29). The account of the woman taken in adultery in John 8 to which you refer is a little bit difficut to understand when taken out of context but does serve to illustrate my point while at the same time it does not de-tract from your point either. The "Law" to which the Pharisee's referred, and in which they were trying to trap Christ, was the Law of Moses. Re verses 5 and 6:

"5. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him . . . "

The Law of Moses is contained partly in Genesis and Exodus, but mostly in Leviticus in the the Old Testament. One of the verses to which the Pharisee's were referring which they felt justified their stoning of the woman taken in adultery is Leviticus 20:10 which states

"And the man that committeth adultery with another man?s wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour?s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."

One of the reasons the Pharisees were trying to trap Christ in the "Law" was because he had begun to teach his own doctrine which did away with the Law of Moses and instituted a Higher Law. This is what he is reffering to in Matthew 5:17 when he says "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." And what he declared to his Apostles after his ascencion in Luke 24:44.(See also 2 Cor. 3:14; Gal. 3;19-24). The more harsh law of Moses was superceded and rendered a dead law.

So when he sent the woman away - he did not send her away to escape the consecuences of her actions, just the consecuences of the Law of Moses. No - Christ did not stone the woman - but he did ask her to repent. That is exactly what he means when he asks her where her accusers are in John 8:11 and then replies to her "Neither do I condemn thee, go and sin no more". He does say that he does not condem her, but his statement "Go, and sin no more" does not release her from her responsibility, nor does it imply complete and total forgiveness. He says, "Neither do I condemn thee" not "They sins are forgiven" as he says to the different woman - a sinner - in Luke 7:48 because her offering to Christ to wash and annoint his feet was symbolic of her change of heart and her commitment to Him, which is what he is asking of the woman taken in adultery in John 8. Yes he will take upong himself her sins and pay her ransom for her, but she has to earn it as Paul counsels in his letter to the Phillipians by "work(ing)out your own salvation with fear and trembling."


Now, am I saying that these boys don't deserve forgiveness for their actions? Well I am not the judge of that but if they do pay for their actions according to the law, which is the law and which I do not have authority to supercede, then I will be satisfied and I will be happy to forgive them and welcome them to my campfire without any prejudices because like Paul declared in is letter to Timothy "that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." (1 Tim. 1:15) But that does not mean that they should in any way be excused from the consecuences of their actions under the law. They broke the law, the confessed and they were convicted. Now, from the information being passed on this forum, it appears that they are not going to be fully held accountable for their actions, which to me, who does abide by the law, AND WHO WOULD INDEED MAKE MY OWN KIDS ABIDE BY THAT SAME LAW AND THE CONSECUENCES FOR BREAKING IT, is a slap in the face. I am not saying we should stone them or sentence them to death as was the extreme punishment meted out by the Law of Moses for the sin of adultery. Just hold them accountable to the punishment as stated in the original article posted above - "Seventh District Juvenile Court Judge Mary Manly found the teens guilty of three felony counts apiece; and sentenced each one to 30 days detention, 600 hours of community service, $1500.00 restitution, and $450.00 in fines."

And yes it is my personal opinion, one that I have gained through sad experience, that as I said in my original post that started this whole argument, the fines, restitution and community service should have been doubled. I am fine with them being listed as felons because they committed a felony under the law and I am fine with 30 days in detention for their "lapse in judgement" and ultimately I am fine with 600 hrs of community service, $1500 restitution and $450 in fines because that is the law. Once they meet this obligation BY THEMSELVES then the law is satisfied and mercy and forgiveness can be applied. If their parents or the community paid the fines, restituion and community service for them I hope that they do not take it for granted, learn from this and live the rest of the lives uprightly to pay everyone back who contributed to their ransom. While I sure hope this is the case, I know better than to bank on it as their "wanton behavior" and "lapse in judgement" is probably a sign of bigger problems that have been brewing and perpetuated by misguided attitudes towards wildlife and wildlife law enforcement long before this incident ever occurred.

So this Eater Sunday I won't worry too buch about whether or not I have broken many major laws or committed any great sins that I need to repent of, because aside from arrogance, anger and procrastination my conscience is pretty clean. And don't you worry about me or my kids, because they will be well taught to respect wildlife and life in general and if they ever do anything a stupid as these kids, they better pray to God that the law gets a hold of them before I do.

It seems to me that the people who have the most problems with the consecuences of the law are the same ones who have the most problems obeying it.

That's all I have to say about that.



ROY
 
After studying and patterning and chasing one deer over two seasons and just when you think you got him.

4436d56736ae6313.jpg


Anyway, this whitetail would of scored about 230 had I been able to find his head.

This pic was taken opening a.m.

I think you know my opinion on poachers, I don't care how old they are.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-07-06 AT 03:57PM (MST)[p]shawn

I may have mistaken you for someone your not but from your posts you sound like a local from monticello. Im still waiting for you to show me were on here i have posted my "so called" mistakes.

Trent
 
Hard to argue with Trigger Happy's post. I've seen alot of that kind of crap personly over the years. Kind of hardens ones heart as to being so forgiving.
 
These boys now face the revocation of their hunting rights. it will likley be twenty one years for all spieces due the the nature of the crime and the fact it was felonies. That means all spieces not just bear and or lion. I don't think the judge was to happy about the slip that allowed the fines to get paid in lue of community service. I think that will be the greatest punishment of all. I think they are old enough to realize they blew it especially the one that spent last year working for a big time outfitter.

Mulehound.
 
>
>
>
> These boys now face
>the revocation of their hunting
>rights. it will likley be
>twenty one years for all
>spieces due the the nature
>of the crime and the
>fact it was felonies. That
>means all spieces not just
>bear and or lion. I
>don't think the judge was
>to happy about the slip
>that allowed the fines to
>get paid in lue of
>community service. I think that
>will be the greatest punishment
>of all. I think they
>are old enough to realize
>they blew it especially the
>one that spent last year
>working for a big time
>outfitter.
>
> Mulehound.


I can't imagine any worse punishment than loosing your hunting rights for twenty-one years! Is that what you said? I'd be offering to do community service the rest of my life rather than giving up hunting opportunity. If that is true, they received a just punishment...one that even the humane society would approve.

ike

http://www.ingramwildlife.com/bearhole.wmv

http://www.ingramwildlife.com/lionjump.wmv
 
Wow.. If I've ever witnessed a post in need of some banjo's playing in the background, this is it!! Good entertainment though, thanks everyone!!!
 
The sentence that was handed down sure has sent a clear message to future poachers. Hopefully.

Chef
"I Love Animals...They're Delicious!"
 
THAT SENTANCE WON'T HELP!!!

ONE OF THE RICH BICH DADDY'S PAID IT OFF!!!

PROBABLY TAUGHT THEM HOW TO POACH!!!

ktc!!!

ABOUT MID WAY UP IN THIS THREAD I'LL ALERT THE MODERATOR(BCBOY)MAYBE HE CAN DELETE HIS OWN POSTS!!!

Ike!!!

AS FAR AS HOUNDSMEN GO,I'VE NEVER KNOWN ONE TO SET OUT A PICNIC BASKET YET,LET ALONE A 55 GALLON DRUM!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THINKING MAYBE SOMEBODY OUGHT TO JUST GUT SHOOT THESE POACHERS,CAN I SAY THAT ON MM???
 

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