Predator control

B

BRYAN_E

Guest
It looks like NDOW are go to put more emphasis on predator control this year. I think this will help out in the short run,
but no one wants to bring up the wild horse problem or in the case in the Reno area the big ugly homes being built on prime winter feeding ranges for the deer.
I don't know this is just my 2 cents.You can read the whole story at RGJ.com
 
This issue gets me fired up like no other.

What these commissioners do not realize, is that we are VERY close to having the lion hunting shut down for GOOD. Then we will have problems. Where there are two groups, which are anti hunting, especially for lions, commenting on this issue in NV, that is BAD. But these guys don't seem to understand how fragile it is.

I am not sure what will happen now.

I don't see where killing more lions is going to help the deer herd in area 6, where there were 21 killed by sport hunters in the last season up there.

One of the projects is also for the Jackson Mountains.

Lets hope we can get some new commissioners with a little common sense this go round.

Later,

Marcial
 
Most people don't seem to realize that nonhunters are by far the biggest majority in this country, and extremism gets their attention.
 
coyotes are and always will be a bigger problem than most people want to believe. They are much harder on deer than cats.

NVMDF
 
>coyotes are and always will be
>a bigger problem than most
>people want to believe. They
>are much harder on deer
>than cats.
>
>NVMDF


X2!!
 
Kinda like saying do you want to get stabbed by a knife or chopped with an axe. :) Both are predators. Coyotes kill a lot of fawns and lions kill a lot of both. Either way its a dead deer. I have found too many lion killed deer myself to say they only eat the sick and wounded.
One great thing from all the recent discussions on predators is the level of awareness of the issue it has brought to the average hunter. Look what the RMEF says about wolves and elk. 80% herd reductions in some areas. 90% on moose.


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The lions dont kill a tenth of the deer that coyotes do, for every cat there are 50 dogs out there eating full grown deer. I bet I walk a thousand miles a year in some of the best mule deer country that Nevada has, and I've seen a total of 3 lions in the last 7 or 8 years, and the last one got smoked. the only way for NDOW to ever get a handle on the coyotes and bring our deer back to what it was in the mid 80's is to poison. no amount of habitat restoration or lion killing will ever get it back to what it was.

NVMDF
 
Because NDOW keeps giving me YOU SUCK letters after the Big Game draws,
I'm thinking to do some hard core coyote hunting this year.
 
>The lions dont kill a tenth
>of the deer that coyotes
>do, for every cat there
>are 50 dogs out there
>eating full grown deer. I
>bet I walk a thousand
>miles a year in some
>of the best mule deer
>country that Nevada has, and
>I've seen a total of
>3 lions in the last
>7 or 8 years, and
>the last one got smoked.
>the only way for NDOW
>to ever get a handle
>on the coyotes and bring
>our deer back to what
>it was in the mid
>80's is to poison. no
>amount of habitat restoration or
>lion killing will ever get
>it back to what it
>was.
>
>NVMDF


Those are my thoughts too. The best way to see what the coyotes do is to get out in the winter when the snow is deep and hard they put a hurting on the deer. The deer break through the crust and the yotes can run on top the deer dont have a chance.
 
Results of a 7 year study on 96 deer fawns that were collared and found shortly after their death. 90 of the 96 died. 51 % by predators. 27% by coyotes and 49% by lions.
In 3 years 25 does were radio collared. 12 of these does were killed by predators. 1 by coyotes and 11 by mountain lions.
Some study's on coyote droppings have the shown the most deer remains in the summer months. From 57% up to 70%. This is when fawns are the most present and coyotes have dens of pups to feed.
Our modern day deer herds probably peaked during the 1988 season. Compare that to the following: We had very few lions in N. Washoe country historically. Here are some harvest figures from areas 1 and 2. 1980 to 1987 1 road kill. 1988 to 1996 8 lions taken. 1997 to 2004 83 lions.


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You can't take information from a study done in n washoe on lions and use that info for the rest of the state. There is going to be more lions there headed in form cali and oregon.
 
I heard that Nevada has 2 to 3 thousand MT.Lions alone.
and each lion will eat 1 deer a week. Is this true?
 
nvthrt (44 posts)
May-27-10, 09:00 PM (MST)
7. "RE: Predator control"
The coyotes eat just as many grown deer as fawns. The coyote population is way out of control.


------------------------------------------------------------------

From what study did you get this information?



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Measure wealth by the things you have,, for which you would not take money.
 
>nvthrt (44 posts)
>May-27-10, 09:00 PM (MST)
>7. "RE: Predator control"
>The coyotes eat just as many
>grown deer as fawns. The
>coyote population is way out
>of control.
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>From what study did you get
>this information?
>
>
>
>----------------------------------------
>Measure wealth by the things you
>have,, for which you would
>not take money.

I look at what i see when i am out. I spend 365 days a year out in the hills and find coyote kills on full grown deer all the time. Last winter i found where a pack ran a buck into a fence and killed him. In the winter the kills i find are around 5 coyote kills to 1 lion kill and these are all full grown deer.
 
I don't spend 365 days a year in the field, I take Christmas and my anniversary off :)
I find way more lion kills on adult deer. But, the coyotes usually find the carcass and clean it up while the lion is away. This leaves coyote tracks everywhere so it can get confusing.
Just found another 7 year study on predator kills on adult deer. The lions had 97 confirmed kills and the coyotes 19. That is 5.1 lion kills for every coyote kill.


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Measure wealth by the things you have,, for which you would not take money.
 
I have heard that same estimate and I think its BS. Do the math on that, that would be 14000-21000 deer lion killed a year.Plus at least that many a year killed by coyotes and then add in road kill and hunters.With only 116000 deer in nevada You would wipe out the population in 2 years.
I have hunted lions here in N.E. Nevada for 11 years where there is more deer than anywhere else in the state.So I would assume there are more lion here also.I have had a winter where I only found 3 tracks the whole winter. I hunt probly 45 weekends a year plus holidays and 3 weeks of vacation a year so i am out alot.We catch the same lion over and over in the same spot and some other places will hold multiple cats, but I have serious doubts about there being 2-3K lions.
Just my opinion
 
I would love to see this study you have. That sounds like a bunch of bs to me. I am very involved in county and state level wildlife commission and have never heard of anything that would be any where near that. I have hounds and fact is there are few lions left out there as compared to the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's. For that matter there are way less coyotes today also. The quote of 2,000 to 3,000 lions and they eat a deer a week. The math don't even come close to working. How many bone piles do you see out there? The only idiots out there that believe predators are the problem are hunters alert or alliance for wildlife that are the same group. They are about 30 people that live in the city and are out doors a week or two a year! Habitat is the problem! The crested wheat planted for cows was the worst mistake ever made. Mule deer foundation along with every other group and NDOW all know and believe habitat is the problem. Predators the problem is a joke, that is for people who have no clue what is going on.
 
>I would love to see this
>study you have. That sounds
>like a bunch of bs
>to me. I am very
>involved in county and state
>level wildlife commission and have
>never heard of anything that
>would be any where near
>that. I have hounds and
>fact is there are few
>lions left out there as
>compared to the 60's, 70's,
>80's and 90's. For that
>matter there are way less
>coyotes today also. The quote
>of 2,000 to 3,000 lions
>and they eat a deer
>a week. The math don't
>even come close to working.
>How many bone piles do
>you see out there? The
>only idiots out there that
>believe predators are the problem
>are hunters alert or alliance
>for wildlife that are the
>same group. They are about
>30 people that live in
>the city and are out
>doors a week or two
>a year! Habitat is the
>problem! The crested wheat planted
>for cows was the worst
>mistake ever made. Mule deer
>foundation along with every other
>group and NDOW all know
>and believe habitat is the
>problem. Predators the problem is
>a joke, that is for
>people who have no clue
>what is going on.


Before you start calling ME an IDIOT. REREAD MY POSTS!!! I was asking a QUESTION about the Mt. LIONS NOT QUOTING SOME GODDAMN STUDY
 
ok this study was done in the sierras of California 12 years ago.how deos this pertain to Nevada's deer heard of today?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-01-10 AT 03:54PM (MST)[p]I am with you guys, I am just a hunter that would like to know the truth behind what has happened to about half our deer. I remember the good old days when deer were abundant on habitat that looks essentially the same as it did back in the 70's and 80's. Except the there are far fewer deer. What happened? The last bad winter I remember was 1992-93. Deep heavy crusted snow and a lot of deer died that winter and the herds just never seemed to come back. And that big die off was BEFORE all the range fires. In 1988 we had an estimated 220,000 deer (The number is from my memory, it could be off some.) in Nevada. We have less than half that now. Lot's of habitat that had good deer hunting is now poor deer hunting. Why? If the habitat had robust deer herds in 1992 why not in 1995? 1998? Nevada had some severe winters in the 1980's and the deer herds always rebounded quite fast? Why?
If the habitat is so bad, why are antelope doing well? Why are elk doing so well? Why are deer herds that live in areas with extensive predator control still doing very well? Areas like the Jicarilla (sp) Indian reservation in NM. Noted for big bucks. lot's of coyote control and lion control. Private lands in MT and WY still have lots of deer because they are managed for deer and cattle.

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I was speaking to a lion hunting friend of mine that recently retired from dogs.He said that in the 80's he could find a lion track in nearly every canyon of the rubys and he passed lots of tracks to find only large toms back then. So would it be safe to say that there were also more lions back when there were more deer(Preditor/prey being relative)?
 
sandsavage (111 posts)
Jun-01-10, 12:49 PM (MST)
25. "RE: Predator control"
ok this study was done in the sierras of California 12 years ago.how deos this pertain to Nevada's deer heard of today?

... makes for some solid comparison? A discussion point? Lions have not evolved much in 12 years. they still eat deer. Coyotes still eat deer.


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I'm sure there are variations from one part of the state to the next. Government hunters in the western part of the state say they were very rare here and the harvest figures posted above seem to confirm that.
As for the Rubies: I can see where areas with a lot of deer always had more lions. Makes sense. I bet Colorado has always had a lot of lions because of all the deer they have. But one lion taking 50 deer from a herd of 11,000 has a lot less impact than one lion taking 50 deer from a herd of 900. A lot like the impact lions have had on bighorn sheep in parts of CA and the desert bighorn herd in New Mexico they almost wiped out until the lions were removed. From what I have read from predator/deer studies is that the more marginal deer country with lower deer numbers is more susceptible to being over harvested by lions and coyotes.
What is hard for some younger hunters to understand is what existed just 30 years ago here in Nevada as far as deer numbers. I guess they have grown up with low deer numbers and that is the "new norm".

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+1 NV, I think your right, Alot of the younger guys don't know what it was like in the 70's and 80's. Also, when herd numbers gets down to a low number it's so hard for them to rebound. Remember the biologist talking about the carrying capacity of the habitat? The old story about the glass of water is true, but if your glass is almost empty, it's almost impossible to get it full again without some help.
When a deer herds numbers get to a drasticley low level, just a few lions and coyotes can keep a herd from rebounding. Thats why predator control is so important right now. Don't get me wrong, I know good habitat is one of the main factors, but NV is right, we had alot more deer on the same feed as we have now. And don't forget about the doe hunts, NDOW issued over the counter doe tags for area 16 and 17 for several years in the mid eighties. That's got to be a factor in those zones for a slow rebound too.

Thanks, Brownie.
 
A couple more problems I think is one, there are a lot more elk too and they stomp a lot of the deer feed right into the ground taking away that much more deer habitat, even though most people out there think elk dont harm deer or deer habitat in anyway, they do, big ol stinky animals. another is mustangs, Stupid jugheaded animals will run the deer right off their water holes and out of there habitat, where back in the day ranchers would just more or less take care of the problem themselves by taking a few stangs out of the herd, now days no one dares touch them ugly ass animals for fear of spending their life in prison for a jugheaded mustang.. just my 2 cents on a couple more factors for smaller deer herds
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-02-10 AT 07:00AM (MST)[p]+1 on desertbonehunters post.
+1 on brownie - the term I have heard used is "predator pit". Low deer numbers and high predator numbers makes recovery difficult.


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>sandsavage (111 posts)
>Jun-01-10, 12:49 PM (MST)
>25. "RE: Predator control"
>ok this study was done in
>the sierras of California 12
>years ago.how deos this pertain
>to Nevada's deer heard of
>today?
>
>... makes for some solid comparison?
>A discussion point? Lions
>have not evolved much in
>12 years. they still eat
>deer. Coyotes still eat deer.
>

I agree with you, Lions and coyotes still eat deer.But where I disagree is that this study is comparable to Nv. today. The lions in Cali havnt been sport hunted since 72' so lion densities are alot higher and the terrain, tree cover, weather,feed, ect is very different than Nv. Plus in the last 12 years hasnt there been ALOT of habitat loss in Nv due to wildfires? Bitter brush is very critical for deer survival here in Nv. and we lost a bunch.You guys can say that the habitat is fine but I respectfully disagree.
 
>A couple more problems I think
>is one, there are a
>lot more elk too and
>they stomp a lot of
>the deer feed right into
>the ground taking away that
>much more deer habitat, even
>though most people out there
>think elk dont harm deer
>or deer habitat in anyway,
>they do, big ol stinky
>animals. another is mustangs, Stupid
>jugheaded animals will run the
>deer right off their water
>holes and out of there
>habitat, where back in the
>day ranchers would just more
>or less take care of
>the problem themselves by taking
>a few stangs out of
>the herd, now days no
>one dares touch them ugly
>ass animals for fear of
>spending their life in prison
>for a jugheaded mustang.. just
>my 2 cents on a
>couple more factors for smaller
>deer herds

I couldnt agree more.
I guess another question I have is where is this big deer shortage.I know this might be unpopular but I have to say it.( I have all the data at home and can add it later)This is all off the top of my head so forgive me if I'm wrong. I saw somewhere that the deer count in 76' was 95000, 80' was a bit more than now and in 86-88 it peaked at 240000 deer. Well, that was an all time high, not normal.we have roughly 116000 deer now(if I remember right). We are at about average for deer numbers since they have kept a record so where is the real shortage.I know everyone wants more but at what cost? Do we exterminate other species just so we can have deer? If so I vote we get rid of all the mustangs.
 
here is a good read, its a bit old(2004) but very infomative.
http://www.ndow.org/hunt/population/deer/index.shtm

"There is no doubt that predators do play a role in mule deer survival. Nevada currently has four predator management projects and studies in place throughout the state specifically targeted for mule deer. However, the results of increased predator control do not necessarily correlate to higher deer populations. In the 1960s, Nevada?s deer populations crashed even though one of the most aggressive predator control programs ever implemented in Nevada was in effect at that time. Surprisingly, Nevadans harvested more mule deer bucks in 1996 and 2000 than were harvested in 1965-1970 when tags were not limited by quotas and predator control activities were extremely high"
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-02-10 AT 04:06PM (MST)[p]I know there is a TON of data to wade through when looking at the hows and whys of where the deer population stands now as compared to the 60's and 70's.
I also know that many different systems have been used over the years to count deer. Is today's deer modeling better? Just from an old timers perspective, it did not really matter what the deer herd was in the 60's as there were deer almost everywhere and not near the hunters (it seemed) hunting them. Just buy a tag and go shoot your buck. How many old time photos have you seen with hunters, open sight 30/30's and the pickup full of big mature bucks?
I do not remember hunters talking of any deer crash in the 60's? Did the herd crash or were just fewer deer harvested? Perhaps several severe winters led to a large die off like we had in 92-93? Perhaps the population change was due to a different deer population modeling system? Perhaps the deer herd was very high in previous years and lot of does were taken leading to a lower overall deer numbers? I know that has happened in the past. Nevada took a lot of does at certain time periods. It does seem like back in the early days we had more severe winters. Perhaps several severe winters in a row decreased the herd? (I know I walked 10 miles in 2' of snow, uphill both ways to get to school. :) ) But the herds always bounced back full force within 3-4 years. Why the good recovery back then? I think a good explanation of the lower deer harvest in the 1965-70 period could simply have been less hunters. Less hunters take less deer? Some good numbers of young men who were hunters were serving in the vietnam war. What is the human population now compared to then? Lot's more people in Nevada now.
I guess the bottom line for each of us is what you believe happened? Right wrong or indifferent? Is what you believe based on your own life experiences? Or is it based on what you read? Then ask how credible is the information you read? Information can be scewed and twisted to give the impression you want it to give. I would not believe one bit of information I got from the Humane Society on hunting and hunters. Because I believe they are not a fair and balanced group of people when it comes to hunting. But I would believe most of what SCI tells me about the benefits of hunting. Same for our second amendment rights. I believe what the constitution says, not what the the brady bunch and chuckie schummer tell me.
If I were a hunter and hunted a lot in the late 1960's and 1970's. And saw a lot of deer in areas I hunted. And if I hunted those areas the past 10 years and saw much fewer deer I would wonder why? If the country had not noticeably changed as far as habitat, I would wonder what happened to the deer. That just seems natural. We should all want what is best for Nevada's hunters.


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Well, that just about sums it up NV. You took the words that I would have had a hard time putting on print, out of my mouth! Good job, I know this deer herd thing is complicated, but, when the bitterbrush, and sage, looks just as good in the 70's as it does now. And the winter range hasn't changed in our lifetime, you wonder, what is the real problem? Great post!
Thanks
Brownie
 
What has changed since the 1960's and 70's?

Very few acres burned due to wildlifes, vs LOTS of acres burned to wildfires.

Very few HORSES, very few ELK (not sure about antelope).

We have lost TONS of mule deer habitat in the last few years that has been accompanied by not so good water years, fairly cold winters, after coming off the not so good water years, and an increase in other species that eat and drink 3-4 times as much as a mule deer does in the same amount of time.

I feel that we cannot look at an alltime high estimate of 240,000 should be a target for now. I really feel we cannot do it. There are too many homes being built in prime winter areas to allow for the heard to grow that much. We have too many people out destroying habitat, fires burning out of control and turning deer food into elk and horse food. Too many horses kicking deer off of water, yada, yada, yada.

Also, how accurate was the count in the 1980's?

nvmuley - you say that the count may or may not have been accurate in the 60's and 70's, or other factors may have been involved, but what about the 80's, 90's, or today. If the counts coud have been off in the 60's and 70's, and lots of good bucks, then why couldn't the count's be off today (up or down). As a side note, I am seeing every year more and more mature bucks than I did in the late 90's early 00's. So is actually having less deer that are healthier a bad thing? Or are people too greedy and need to have that tag every year no matter what? I was born in 1983, so I can't say how many people were hunting back in the 60's and 70's, but I am sure it was quite a bit less that it is today. There were also a lot fewer people out destroying habitat, and a higher percentage of the "hunters" actually hunted.

Bottom line is we will probably never see that many deer again.

But I sure would like to see a lot fewer horses in the field.

Later,

Marcial
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-03-10 AT 09:07AM (MST)[p]Back to BRYAN_E's original post: I think he summed it up pretty well!
Lots of issues, lots of data to look at on a case by case basis. Each deer herd unit has it's own priority scale of problems. Some are impacted heavily by feral horses and some are not really impacted by changing habitat. Of course having habitat is #1 priority. But as some long term studies like the King's River deer one have shown that high population levels of predators can severely decrease and limit deer numbers. To deny that is to say that deer cannot over graze their habitat. And the Kaibab deer herd proved deer can severely over graze their food supply. After all, does not the relationship deer have with bitterbrush the same one predators have with deer,,, food !! If too many deer can overgrtaze why cannot to many predators overgraze? Sure we should continue to improve habitat whenever possible. That is a given. But high predator numbers can trump the habitat. Just look at the 80% herd reductions elk are seeing with wolves hammering them. Look at the impact lions have had on some struggling desert sheep populations. Look at the damage pike can have on other fish populations. Look at the positive results the Jicarrillo reservation gets with extensive predator control. There is a big picture and wildlife management should be practiced whenever possible. That takes leaders with knowledge and guts to implement the right policies. That means not just giving in to not doing any wildlife management just because it's controversial. Present the facts and make your case. Educate the public if needed. Many game departments have their hands tied with so many ridiculous laws all they can do is shuffle hunters around and call that wildlife management. Politics sucks. Political correctness is nothing more than the suppression of free speech. Look at poor Arizona, our current political leaders refuse to enforce the laws of the United States for whatever reason and US citizens are suffering.
Don't think for a minute that every bitterbrush seedling planted in the ground is going to live to maturity to feed deer. Seedlings planted in a drought year will die. I do feel that every doe killed by a predator will not give birth to twin fawns next spring. I think we should try to keep predator numbers at the safe, low end of their population scale and deer at the higher end. Why? Because it benefits hunters. We eat venison, we buy gas, we buy camping equipment, we spend money! We as hunters take bucks leaving does to give birth and maintain the population at stable levels so we can hunt as much as possible year after year. As you have read from the studies, predators take a lot of does. That has an immediate and lasting effect.
This has been a good discussion, exactly what this MM forum is supposed to do.
Thanks to all :)


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LAST EDITED ON Jun-03-10 AT 09:42AM (MST)[p]nvmuley, I agree with you on almost every point.You hit it right on the head, predator numbers will follow prey numbers (overgrazing).
The only place I disagree is about keeping predator numbers low.I hunt lions all year along with other species too.I doubt any other hunters spend more money on gas, food, equipment ect than a houndsman. Granted, there are not near as many of us as there are deer hunters, but there are still quite a few.I enjoy hunting them AND killing them and eating them too. I cant even begin to guess how much money I spend per lion caught. Some people think we should kill off a large percent of the big cats just to raise mule deer numbers but I ask isnt that unfair to those of us who choose to enjoy hunting lions? Its kind of a single species approach to game management and its wrong.All of the sportsmen in our state should have a fair opprotunity to persue game. Lion hunters included.
This has been a great discussion and Alot of great points made.I do agree that some areas in Nv. do need more predator control..... But not anywhere I hunt LOL
 
nvmuley, I am wondering what your opinion is on unit 012 in northern Washoe County, Donnely peak/Calico Range. I don't think the deer are doing great there. Are there a lot of lions there?
 
NVBighorn,
I have not spent much time there and do not know much about it as far as lions, coyotes, chukar or deer. Around 2000 I drove the roads and scouted it a lot and the feral horses were terrible. Several waterholes I visited were coned out with a tiny pool of water in the bottom and horses standing around waiting for a drink. No grass at all and bare dirt. I watched the feral horses keep two antelope away from the water until the antelope finally gave up and left. Those two waterholes back in the 1970's were well maintained with good troughs and flowing with water. Grass and sagehens were abundant near the springs. (I saw some of the largest flocks I personally have ever seen.) Just an opinion but even back in the 70's I always thought of 12 as more of an antelope unit than a top notch deer unit with a lot of open country and lower elevation lands. But I know there are pockets of deer here and there and I did see some nice mule deer bucks.
What has been your experience there?


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Yea, LOL, now where did you request the additional predator work ?? :)

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Measure wealth by the things you have,, for which you would not take money.
 
Sorry, got busy and forgot I asked the question.

The reason I asked that question is that above you gave figures of how many more lions there are in Washoe county now than in the past. Therefore I am assuming these lions would be in the Calico range as well. Since the deer herd there is only in mediocre shape I can assume you would attribute some of that to these lions that are so plentful in Washoe county.

At the same time these lions of yours are eating all the deer in that area the California bighorn sheep herd has blossomed. So much so that NDOW removed sheep from this area recently for release elsewhere. The biologist I talked to said they really needed to get that population of sheep down a little before a catastrophic event occurs.

Also, as you have pointed out above, the feral horse population in the Calicos has been skyrocketing, so much so that over 2000 horses were removed this spring. You only have to pick up the paper to see headlines about that effort.

So, here are a couple things to ponder. First mountain lions love to eat mustang foals. So much so that they will suppress a population of horses if there are enough lions. Second, it is well documented that lions wreak havoc with bighorn sheep populations especially as the sheep are establishing themselves following a reintroduction.

The sixty four dollar question then has to be: If lions are the primary limiting factor why are the deer the only ones not doing well in this range since there are so many alternative prey species? An established population of deer should have no problem coexisting with lions if they are the secondary or even tertiary prey species. Correct?

Maybe deer really do taste like cookies.
 
Well I have been gone for a while. The talk about elk having an impact on habitat by trampling it, really? I spend around two hundred days a year in the hills and have never seen anything destroyed by elk, as far as habitat. At the same time there is 500,000 cattle grazing on public land and I do see a huge amount of land destroyed by them! There are tons of study's that show there is no affect on deer populations from predator control. Predator control can help in some parts but not as a whole. For people that think the habitat is the same just don't have the knowledge to see the difference in healthy bitter brush and ones that have no nutritional value. The land is ever changing and we need to embrace what will flourish today. Elk and antelope do very well today lets build those herds. We should have 100,000 elk in Nevada!
 
You would have a 100,000 elk in Nevada, but the cattlemans association won't allow it. To much special interest running the state legislature.
 
I agree that deer numbers do seem to be on the decline. I have hunted in Nevada for many years and grew up at the base of the Rubies. As far as cattle destroying habitat, I am sure they do, but have you ever seen what the sheep do. And as far as the predator situation goes just be thankful that the wolves aren't there yet. I have lived in Montana for the past five years and have seen first hand what the wolves have done to not only elk and deer populations but also bear, moose, and any other big game animal. I have heard that people have seen wolves in Nevada and if so, animal populations including lion and coyote will disappear faster than you have ever seen. I continue to hunt the Rubies every year with my friends and family we generally see a ton of deer including bucks. What we haven't seen in the last few years is the big bruiser bucks that we used to see. They are for sure fewer and farther between than they were in the past.
 
You hit the nail on the head! That goes for deer also, back in the 50's the ranchers where complaining of to many deer so they killed thousands of doe's. After a couple years deer numbers dropped down far.
 
Agree, I do believe cattle and sheep can be ran with no harm and actually help the habitat. They have to be moved around often so they don't eat everything and trample whats left to bug dust! Nevada is controlled by ranching until that changes we will never have any more wildlife.
 
"At the same time these lions of yours are eating all the deer...

So, here are a couple things to ponder. First mountain lions love to eat mustang foals. So much so that they will suppress a population of horses if there are enough lions.
The sixty four dollar question then has to be: If lions are the primary limiting factor why are the deer the only ones not doing well in this range since there are so many alternative prey species? An established population of deer should have no problem coexisting with lions if they are the secondary or even tertiary prey species. Correct?

Maybe deer really do taste like cookies. "
________________________________________________________________


Why do you say "these lions of yours" ??? I have no vested financial interest in lions :) I was sharing with you actual NDOW figures for lion taken in WA county.
Yes, lions love mustang foals and even adults if they can kill them. But horses are large animals. Are you aware of any areas where lions have actually suppressed horse herds? I am not aware of any areas.
Do you have any population estimates of lions in the Calicos? Or lion hunters that regularly hunt it? Maybe they are not currently there in any numbers?
Predators evolved with different capabilities for capturing different prey. Lions for deer, wolves for moose and elk, coyotes for fawns, mice and rabbits.
Antelope do not seem to as "killable" for a lion as a deer. Antelope favor more open country. 015 has lot of antelope and a lot of lions. But very few deer compared to the past. Around August 1998 I saw eleven nice velvet bucks while hunting there, not the case anymore. Deer spend a lot of time in heavier brush, making them more stalkable and killable by a lion. The same as for human hunters, we look for bucks that are stalkable. Antelope in the middle of a 5 mile flat are pretty hard to stalk and they run pretty fast also :)
I am a predator and I can run down a badger or a porqupine but I can not run down a jackrabbit. I think sheep are better at evading lions also due to their preference for cliffs and rocky country. But yes, they do need to water and do travel between prime habitat areas making them vulnerable. At water especially. Lions hunt waterholes hard.
From the research I have read, lions can especially be a limiting factor for deer in more marginal areas of deer habitat. 10 lions in a mountain range with only 200 deer will take a higher percentage of that deer poplulation than 10 lions living in a prime mountain range with 1,000 deer. I do believe lions will key in on deer as a primary prey species and take other animals as opportunity (or hunger) presents itself. There is cumulative effect of predation. Coyotes get so many deer and lions are an additive mortality in an area where they did not exist in any great numbers. (refer to NDOW data from Washoe Co). They make for additive deer mortality on the population on top of the coyotes. Talk to some government trappers that worked the country in the 1960's and forward. Their observations back up the lion take figures I posted above. Just facts to consider.
Elko county would be an area of much better, prime deer habitat where lion mortality on deer would not impact the population as much.
I think in "general" you can say the following about Nevada:
Why are elk faring better than deer?
Why are antelope faring better than deer?
Why are feral horses faring better than deer?
If it was all about habitat and rain and snow, why is the habitat producing enough feed for the above animals to continue to expand their populations and the deer appear to be struggling more?
A complicated issue with different answers for each deer herd.



----------------------------------------
Measure wealth by the things you have,, for which you would not take money.
 
Great article in the new JULY/August Muley Crazy magazine dealing with predators and their affects on mule deer. Great read, get it! It was written by Dr. Charles Kay. It fits right into the discussion we have been having.
Summing it up: Lions can have a greater impact on mule deer when they have a second alternative prey to hunt as a backup food source while continuing to pursue their primary prey mule deer. Driving deer numbers EVEN LOWER than if the alternative prey was not there.

Some of what was said:
"In Nevada, mountain lions that prey on wild horses have a much greater impact on mule deer than cougar populations without feral equines as an alternative prey."

In the elk ridge unit in Utah over 2,500 deer a year were harvested for over 20 years. During the 1970's after lions were protected and effective predator control was eliminated, deer numbers dropped."Today a single lion on elk ridge will kill more deer than all archery. muzzleloader and rifle hunters combined."

"Contrary to what most agency biologists will try and tell you, habitat and habitat improvements are largely irrelevant if the underlying problem is excessive predation "



----------------------------------------
Measure wealth by the things you have,, for which you would not take money.
 
I read the article. A good read. This Dr. Charles Kay, he didn't drink the kool-aid, did he? It's amazing that he's one of few biologists that think outside of the box. We need more like him.
Thanks, Brownie
 
Bottom line is something is killing and eating them. The easy thing for ALL hunters to do is Try kill 10 a piece a year for 5 years and see if helps, if it doesn't help it not the coyotes.


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 

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