Public Apology...

[akah2o]

I need to make a public apology for trying to make a difference.
I thought that being involved with SFW (former Northern Utah Committee Member) I was helping the little guys have a voice, to help make it possible for my kids to be able to hunt.
I had no idea that I was a part of the communist party.
I spent my time and money thinking that I might be able to help make a difference. Well watching the way things are going I see that I have been shot in the foot and left to die slowly,
Watching the future of hunting go to the rich, I am but a poor humble guy that likes to hunt with my kids, and wish I could continue on the legacy. I guess that I need to start riding mountain bikes in the mountains since we wont be able to hunt in them. Again I'M SORRY!!!!!

A humble poor hunter

 

[hossblur]

Wow, I get to the first to say it. YOUR JUST JEALOUS!!! There now that is out of the way. We lost control with the CWMU movement. There were always guides and outfitters, always tresspass permits, but when the State got involved it created the frankenstein where all but 3000 hunters get one thing, the others get all they want. Now with that money and the gov.s tags going for 6 figures the state is addicted to the money and it matters not what the people say at RACs, emails, letters, etc. unless you can attatch numerous zeros to the end of a number, you don't matter, in fact they will try there best to limit your exposure to the "process" by having the bucks and bulls RACS while many are still hunting and doing away with the RAC requirement for the dedicated hunters(and replacing it with either money or labor). I think in its infancy SFW was a great organization, but when the leaders become lobbyists and are lobbied the original intent goes out the window and it becomes a ponzai scheme where those at the bottom feed the few at the top. What were you doing while Don Peay is up on capitol hill shmoozing, or hunting with Karl Malone(nealy 40 hunts according to him), you were feeding deer, fundraising, writting to you representatives etc., and for that what do you get, a 5 day deer season(notice that the CWMUs didn't lose a single bookable day). Hunting has become like every other activity, the haves and have nots. It happened in motocross, atv's, snowboarding, racing, whatever money talks and the UTAH DWR loves to listen to it! YOUR JUST JEALOUS!!!!!!

 

[coyotedogs]

I only wish more people knew what a monster the SFW is and will become leading blind hunters astray. That Bateman idiot is a wolf in sheeps clothing. I am a houndsman and the dollar is clearly gonna screw up everything that people that love to hunt live for. I don't need big money to get one quality hunt once a year, I hunt every weekend, but, when our own board at the DNR won't even support hunters, its over. My biggest complaint against the sfw is how they tell all the deer hunters that cats and bear are killing off all the deer. How come when I was a kid back in the 70's, dad would get off work and go catch a lion in the afternoon and catch between 60 - 90 cats every year and shoot a 4 pt. buck every yr. too. If there were that many cats, wouldn't the deer numbers be down too. There are now more doggers than then and its a race to see who's gonna be the lucky one this weekend to at least find a track, let alone catch it. Most guys are lucky to catch 5 in a normal winter. Except for the female killing outfitters. My favorite sign of stupidity is to listen to a dedicated hunter say how many lion trax he saw in a canyon last year. He was either dang lucky and did see a female track near her kittens followed by a tom or he crossed the track of a hunting cat criss crossing a canyon. Last week a friend told me that the reason deer and elk numbers were down on a ranch in east canyon is beacause the bear are doing it. I'm not gonna go there because I get so angry thinking about this comment. Just like guns kill people.

 

[ILArcher]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-08-10 AT 01:37PM (MST)[p]Sportsmen For the Wealthy has basically turned the entire Utah nonresident hunting draw system into little more than lotto ball draw odds. Based on my current evaluation, Utah would be completely off the list of state draws I participate in, if it weren't for my 13 deer points. Once I burn them I will not be back until the feds step in.

 

[woodruffhunter]

IL:

How long have you lived and/or hunted in Utah?

 

[Addicted]

Well said by all and i couldn't agree more. Well actually I could but im not in the mood for a rant right now. But very very sadly I admit in a bad bad way they do some good, but im positive the good will never out weigh the bad. Its too bad all the money they steal cant go to people who could and would do more good with it.


Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward, whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both, for a wounded man shall say to his assailant "If I live I will kill you, If I die you are forgiven." Such is the rule of honor.

 

[ILArcher]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-10-10 AT 09:33PM (MST)[p]wrh, 14 Years. Lived in US for 50 years. Payed federal taxes for federal land for 38 years. Makes little difference though. Gotta evaluate the allocation changes for what they are. They speak for themselves.

 

[coondog]

HOSS

I KNOW I'M JUST JEALOUS BUT WHAT MAKES YOU THINK PRIVATE LAND HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH PUBLIC GROUND?? I KNOW WE ALL OWN THE ANIMALS BUT IF THEY WERE ON MY LAND OR YOURS WE WOULD TELL THEM TO PISS OFF AND FIND SOMEWHERE ELSE TO HUNT RIGHT? CWMU ARE GOOD TO HUNTERS IN UTAH . I HAD A TAG LAST YEAR AND KILLED A GREAT MOOSE THAT COULD HAVE BEEN SAVED FOR A PAYING CLIENT!

 

[hossblur]

So you couldn't have bought a trespass permit from the landowner and killed that moose? Why did you need the states involvement? When the state set up the CWMU system it created a public system that sets prices on what should be private buisness. Then what we get is an expansion of private land locked up. Yes I said it, a lot of these "ranches' are not financially viable without the Cwmu, which means that land might be puchasable by either the state or conservation groups and made accesible to the public. Also, and we are seeing it this year, with the states involvment in hunting it become a bigger revenue source to the state. Antelope Island hunting is being discussed by State Senators because of the ammount of money it could generate. Not because it is good for the hunting public whose tag and donation money put those animals on the island in the first place, or because the carrying capacity is exceeded but because some Senator sees that an elk for example can fetch anywhere from $7,500 to $175,000 and that is that much more that the DWR won't need from the general budget so he can spend it on something way more important(naming roads or buildings after public officials). Without the state having there nose in it that elk is worth $285, because thats what the tag goes for and therefore the DWR might get some of the general budget(like every other less lucrative agencies get). Whether the land owner charges $1 or $10,000 is the landowners buisness. There is no industry in which government is involved that is better or benefited by having that involvment, why are hunters so dumb as to think that the private land owner/hunter interaction is better with the states involvement? The State of Utah has become addicted to the huge money in the commercial hunting industry which is why it actively markets CWMUs all the while telling you about its public access program. If you had the acreage to be a CWMU would you join the access program if you could get guaranteed tags and liberal seasons(bookable days)? No, neither would most anyone else, so the lack of public access on private property via just nice owners or trespass fees is brought about mostly via the State and there CWMU system. Without it you would buy a tresspass permit from the land owner and kill your moose.

 

[MadHunter]

It's nice to know that there is one les SFW member out there and Dude.. no need for an apology. We all make mistakes.

As far as the states involvement with SFW, Hoss is right. The state has become addicted to the money. Utah has created monster with enormous power in the SFW by allowing themselves to salivate over the 6 figures that an elk or sheep tag will bring in. These organizations will lockout the land for the public hunter while they retain the best tags for their wealthy members. Yeah sure once in a while you hear of a guy that went on a hunt of a lifetime thanks to SFW or RMEF or some other elitist group. That's the smoke screen that doesn't allow you to see reality.

The management of Elk and deer in Utah is a joke that has been lead by these organizations. Their methods are based on desire for trophies and not on the science of biology. CWMUs perpetuate the love for the cash flow the state has and it does nothing for the public that supports the state with tax money as well as tag money.

Utah is hurting in the hunting arena and it will hurt more because of the hunger of the state for money. Don?t be fooled! Having 10 huge bucks or 10 huge elk does nobody any good if that is all that exists in the state.

 

[schmalts]

Oh it feels good to say I told you so, at least to some here... I woke up years ago, was very vocal, and have pretty much given up the fight. Too many Sheep following the herd on the wealth tags. Too many expect the rich to pay thier way.

 

[MadHunter]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-23-10 AT 01:49PM (MST)[p]Here is some food for thought....
If anyone knows or has heard of Gordon(RIP), Mike and Guy Eastman, you would know they are huge advocates of public land DIY hunting. If any of you guys subscribe to their magazine or watch their TV shows you will notice a few things....
1.- They hunt on public land (almost always)
2.- They very rarely hunt in Utah
3.- They never attend the SFW expo

Why would one of the biggest advovates of public land hunting not represent themselves at the show put on by the biggest advocates of hunting elitism? I have never read nor have heard them speak ill of any group or organization.... just an observation and some food for thought.

 

[destroyer350]

Eastmans do spend time and money on private land also$$$$$$$$$

 

[Bman9900]

I have always wondered the same thing. Eastmans has never had a booth at the expo, even though they attend the Sportsman's Show in SLC every year. I too have never heard or read anything from them bad mouthing any organization, but they have been fairly vocal about the proliferation of conservation tags - including governor tags. There could be a correlation there.

 

[MadHunter]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-23-10 AT 03:39PM (MST)[p]I will bring this up with them in March at the ISE show. I have had a few conversations with Guy Eastman on several ocasions on about different topics. He is a very down to earth guy (no pun)and it is very clear their organization is for the general public. I will bring this one up if I run into him again.

 

[MadHunter]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-23-10 AT 03:56PM (MST)[p]>Eastmans do spend time and money
>on private land also$$$$$$$$$

YES! Yes they do and it usually is when they take a hunt winner on his hunt. If we had the money a lot of us would spend a lot of it on private land/tags. That is not the point. The point is that the Eastmans are big advocates of the general public hunting opportunities and critics of conservations tags.

If the state subscribes to orgs like SFW because they want the money, then raise the price of tags. The state is here to serve the people not a few members of an organization. I gurantee we would all still pay 10, 20 or maybe even 50 dollars more on a tag. That would generate 1, 2 and 5 million for the DWR. Does SFW inject that amount into the state? I don't think so.

They spend that much on projects that will benefit their agenda not the general public?s. Their original goal may have been different than it is today. Remember that all organization will push the agenda of the people that feed it. The general public does not feed SFW.

 

[destroyer350]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-23-10 AT 07:19PM (MST)[p]Not to start a fight, but how much money does Eastmans raise or donate to conservation projects? They put out a magazine, I've heard of nothing else!!! When Mike or Guy hunt Muddy Creek it isn't for anybody else.

 

[MadHunter]

I am not sure about this and I have never asked them. Their operation is not as big as say... MossBack and I don't hear of them putting any amount of money towards conservation either. That doesn't mean either one of them doesn't put up some cash.
Another thing to talk to them about!

 

[woodruffhunter]

"I too have never heard or read anything from them bad mouthing any organization, but they have been fairly vocal about the proliferation of conservation tags"

Well you missed it; Mike was spouting off about SFW a few years back in one of his magazines. I could really careless if he does or doesn't support SFW. But, he has done it (bought rights to private hunting).

A few years back Peay offered to debate him on the issue (of course Eastman wouldn't do it).

Eastman's and public land, do it yourself.... They critisize the "European" method of hunting which make them hypocrites. Why?? Because they don't mind paying for private hunts either.

I actually don't agree with some of SFW's practices. However, I do like some of what they do.

Everyone of you who think the elk hunting is bad here, should have been here in the 80's when shooting a raghorn, or even seeing one was a dream come true lol....

 

[AWHOLELOTTABULL]

MadHunter -
"Utah is hurting in the hunting arena and it will hurt more because of the hunger of the state for money. Don?t be fooled! Having 10 huge bucks or 10 huge elk does nobody any good if that is all that exists in the state"

What the hell are you talking about?

"Their operation is not as big as say... MossBack and I don't hear of them putting any amount of money towards conservation either."

Again, what the hell are you talking about?

"If anyone knows or has heard of Gordon(RIP), Mike and Guy Eastman, you would know they are huge advocates of public land DIY hunting. If any of you guys subscribe to their magazine or watch their TV shows you will notice a few things....
1.- They hunt on public land (almost always)"

Obvious - you don't know what the hell you are talking about!!!
Why don't you ask them how many DIY guided hunters they have taken out? Gordon and Guy ran one of the most respected outfits in the West for a long time! I'm sure they didn't DIF (Do It For Free)!

You need to do a little more research on the subject. Talk about somebody drinking the Koolaide!


It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com

 

[MadHunter]

Read the whole thread and dont take what was written out of context. If you have an opinion on the matter let's hear it.

Drinking the koolaid?....... We all drink it. We just drink different flavors of it. As an outfitter you subscribe to a different koolaid source than I do.

 

[AWHOLELOTTABULL]

You're stating things IN CONTEXT that are totally false. What do you mean "don't take it out of context"? "they don't bad mouth other organizations", "they are not as big as Mossback", "they hunt mostly public land", ALL FALSE STATEMENTS. Not sure how I can take a false statement out of context.


It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com

 

[hossblur]

AWholelottabull and I have argued about CWMU's, guides, etc. before and while he and I disagree he is a fair guy I don't think he is taking out of context anything. HOWEVER, Eastmans and Mossback are two different entities. Mossback is a guide service(yes they have a show and put out videos) but it is a guide service first. Eastmans are more of an entertainment group, (shows, videos, magazines, speaking engagements, etc). I too would argue that Mossback, especially recently are the big dog of the guide world. I would be curious though, what does hunt public land mean? If you use Mossback to hunt the Monroe your hunting public land right, even if you put out $250,000 to kill an elk technically your hunting public land, but your as far away from DIY as you can get. As for bad mouthing SFW, good for them, because if it is true that they spent 13.5% of there over 3million dollar budget on habitat last year then they need more that a tongue lashing, they need to be done away with!

 

[AWHOLELOTTABULL]

Hosblur, what do you mean disagree? You and I see eye to eye on everything don't we?LOL You are right about the "2 different entities" thing. And, I don't want anybody thinking that I don't like the Eastman gang. I do. They put out a good product but just like everybody else, (including me) they have their faults. I don't like to see anybody placed up on a pedestal. It usually ends up being a long way to fall. And I agree with you 100% on this one hosblur, if they only put that much on the ground I will be asking some serious questions with regards to allocation of funds the next time I have a chance to talk to somebody from SFW.

It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com

 

[MadHunter]

I guess Hosblur found the words that I missed. I didn't mean to put the Eastman crew on a pedestal. I did mean to point out the difference of what the two different groups (SFW and Eastmana's) preach vs. practice.

Even thought the Eastman crew do hunt private land they don't cater or have an agenda to limit the average hunter. It's the hypocracy of stating that you are there for the sportman and then only choose to support the "rich" sportman.

I have no issues with someone paying as much as they can afford for a guide service. It's their money and they can do what they will with it. But when you take a public resource and try to turn it into your private goldmine by limiting the public's access to it then..... we got issues!

I think we all agree to a big extent. Happy hunting guys. Good luck on the draw!

 

[schmalts]

>.
>I thought that being involved with
>SFW (former Northern Utah Committee
>Member) I was helping the
>little guys have a voice,
>to help make it possible
>for my kids to be
>able to hunt.
>I had no idea that I
>was a part of the
>communist party.
>
This is not the first time we have heard past SFW committee members saying things like this is it not? Makes a guy wonder that if SFW was everything it wanst us to think the ones on the inside would not make posts like this.

 

[AWHOLELOTTABULL]

No worries there MadHunter. It's just the internet. Good luck to you in the draws as well.

It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com

 

[tallbuck1]

It does truly make you wonder....

Tallbuck1