Reloading for the 300 win. Results Questions

[Striker]

LAST EDITED ON May-31-10 AT 08:18PM (MST)[p]So I set out today with my new trusty Ruger Hawkeye 300 Win Mag. I had worked up some test loads to find what my new rifle was going to shoot best. The bullets that I had chosen were 180 grain Sierra Gameking spire point boat tails. I like these bullets for their design and the fact that they are one of the few 180 grain bullets that breaks .500 for ballistic Coef. I loaded these bullets with IMR 4831 and CCI 250 Large Rifle Magnum Primers. Here are the results. My question is what is going on with these groups?

This was the lightest load that I had loaded at 71.8 grains. decent group three shots at right at 3/4 of an inch

This is my second load at 72.4 grains. the group of three is 11/16 or just under 3/4 of an inch

Then this happens. Load threeat 73 grains opens way up top three shots measure 1 13/16 of an inch

This is load four at 73.5 grains. Here my group goes horizontal. The three shot pyramid is gone and is replaced with a horizontal string. What is going on?

Lastly load five at 74 grains. Even more dramatic horizontal spread. What makes a group change shape like this?

It is clear that my rifle likes a little lighter load. the 72.4 grain group that i shot will most likely be the one I load with. It is a medium to hot load but well under the max load in the sierra manual. None of these loads showed signs of pressure and would feel safe loading any of them, however the lighter two loads of the five yielded the best results. What is my rifle trying to tell me by the change in the group shape? Is there any way that i can use this data to further my progress in my load developement?

 

[swampmule]

I had the same results out of my 338 Browning .I was using Nosler
180 grain with IMR 4831.But I have no problem with 200 gran bullets out the same set up.I went as far as to change the scope. looked at the rings and the mounts .I even talked to the gun smith about it all he could say is that some guns will not shoot a light weight bullet.

 

[BuckSnort]

Your light load looks promising...It's a new gun whats the trigger like? If its heavy and you get it down to 3 lbs or so your group may get much tighter...

Disclaimer:
The poster does not take any responsibility for any hurt or bad feelings. Reading threads poses inherent risks. The poster would like to remind readers to make sure they have a functional sense of humor before they visit any discussion board.

 

[Twoshooter]

Go with the light load. If you love the Sierra I would try using a different powder if you want more speed. RL22 proved to be more accurate in my gun, especially on the max load.

 

[kimbersig]

I have been told that a horizontal spread is a result of too hot a load. i would try different seat depths and different powder. I am working up a load for my 300 using 168 gr tsx and RL19. I had a great load worked up with winchester 760 and 180 gr partitions and it fell apart when hodgdon took over the winchester powders. guess there was just enough difference to make is suck. good luck

 

[Striker]

The rifle is new. I am guessing that the trigger is sitting right around 4 to 4.5 pounds for pull. It has a mile of creep though. I am guessing that there is around .050-.080 of trigger creep. The shots are surprising me when they go off which is a good sign. How much will it change the size of the group by adjusting the seating depth of the bullet? does anyone have any personal experiences? How much should the increments of adjustment be?

 

[justr_86]

Let me know where you end up please. I have the same gun just starting to look into reloading. it would be great for me if I could get headed in the right direction from the start.

 

[Striker]

Justr_86 I can tell you that the loads felt great. They seem to be well mannered and not harsh to shoot at all. This rifle could not go under a 2" group to save its life with 180grain factory loads. Either Remington or Winchester. However it seemed to like these Sierra's. I will do some more R&D with the suggestions on here and let you know. Stay Tuned.

 

[BuckSnort]

I have good luck with seating the bullet .020-.030" from the lands..Bad thing is most magazines wont allow that long a bullet.. Also you should make sure you are seating the bullet into the case at least as deep as the bullet is wide for proper neck tension...

Disclaimer:
The poster does not take any responsibility for any hurt or bad feelings. Reading threads poses inherent risks. The poster would like to remind readers to make sure they have a functional sense of humor before they visit any discussion board.

 

[justr_86]

I have been shooting 180 grain power points out of mine and been getting great groups, around an inch and smaller. Maybe your groundwork wont really help me.

 

[Striker]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-02-10 AT 08:52PM (MST)[p]Well here's what I decided after hearing what you guys had to say. I took a load between the lightest two and loaded it with varying bullet depths. I loaded five different loads at an even 72 grains. The first seat depth is 3.340, 3.355, 3.375, 3.395 and lastly 3.410. Five different loads with a total span of .070. I would have perhaps Tried for even more but I ran out of neck tension with the bullet and magazine length. I also took the 73.5 grain load and switched up Primers. I also tried a couple of different seat depths with this hotter load. I also like the fact that there is very little vertical variation. I will see what happens early Saturday and post my results.

 

[Cahunter805]

Striker. I'd say you are on the right track. Sometimes just a change of. 005 can tighten a group dramatically. Also I woulr recommended rl22 if those loads don't work. Good luck

 

[cabinfever]

Striker

I have done a lot of load development & tweaking with the 300 WM. Some of my suggestions have already been mentioned so I guess I'm reinforcing some of what has been said. My end result is a 1/2 inch group with a factory remington.

If your trigger is over 3.5 lbs, your groups will be erratic. A light trigger will shrink your groups substantially.Trust me!

Break your barrel in. Barrel break-in is a must to stablize muzzle velocities and therefore have consistent groups (no flyers). If you think barrel break-in is a bogus ploy, take a new gun or even an old dirty gun and fire 20+ rounds through a chronograph. Your velocities will differ as much as 100 fps which translates into groups that are all over the paper. If you want to know the barrel break in procedure send me a PM.

RL22 powder is the most accurate powder I have found for the 300 WM

180 grain nosler accubonds shoot very well out of a 300 wm

One last thing, for some odd reason I have always got better groups with my lighter powder charge.

Mike

 

[BuckSnort]

I have "Broke in" several BBL's and have come to the conclusion that it is just a waste of time and money...

Disclaimer:
The poster does not take any responsibility for any hurt or bad feelings. Reading threads poses inherent risks. The poster would like to remind readers to make sure they have a functional sense of humor before they visit any discussion board.

 

[cabinfever]

no disrespect bucksnort, but maybe you weren't doing it right! If you use generic solvent, you aren't getting the copper residue out that builds up on the tooling marks. You have to use a good cooper remover like Montana Extreme Copper killer.

 

[Striker]

Cabinfever, thanks for your comments and I couldn't agree more. You are right in what you say. I did go through a break in procedure for my 300 before I ever started with load development. Instead of using Montana extreme, I used Barnes CR-10. Ive been told by several that it is the most aggressive of the copper removers this side of using abrasives. Breaking in others of my rifles have proved to be a good decision. Is there any way to go back if you have a rifle that was never broke in properly? I have one that I got when I was 16 that I think could benefit if this is the case. My 300 also likes a little bit milder load. Of all of my rifles, I have been able to plan and load for them with only two different powders. Some would say that this is crazy and perhaps foolish. However it does have its benefits. The two powders are IMR 4064, and IMR 4831. I am considering trying some RL-22 though for my 300. It is just so easy to stock up for all of my reloading needs present and future by only buying two

 

[BuckSnort]

>no disrespect bucksnort, but maybe you
>weren't doing it right! If
>you use generic solvent, you
>aren't getting the copper residue
>out that builds up on
>the tooling marks. You have
>to use a good cooper
>remover like Montana Extreme Copper
>killer.


None taken...Like I said this is just my experience of several rifles that I have "broke in"...yes the right way... I just dont think there's a noticeable difference... But keep on breaking them in...The powder and bullet companies appreciate it

Disclaimer:
The poster does not take any responsibility for any hurt or bad feelings. Reading threads poses inherent risks. The poster would like to remind readers to make sure they have a functional sense of humor before they visit any discussion board.

 

[cabinfever]

CR-10 should do the trick.I have used it before. You can break in old rifles using the same method. The key is to clean until your patch comes out clean. If the copper is real stubborn, I'll run a wet patch with the copper killer and than let it sit in the barrel for 30 minutes and than scrub with a nylong brush follwed by a dry patch (you better check to see if you can do this with CR-10). With the ME the copper killer reacts with the copper turning your patch blue. I clean until the blue disappears. My dad had a well used rifle we couldn't get to group, so we removed the copper and guess what? Yep, his groups shrank? Get on some shooting forums, particularly the guys that shoot F-class, and they will tell you that copper is one of the biggest culprits in erratic groups.

Anyway, it sounds like you are on the right track. Keep us posted!

 

[cabinfever]

All the accuracy procedures, including barrel break in, are probably not necessary for the average hunter who is only concerned about hitting a paper plate at 100 yds and never intends to shoot beyond 300 yards. There is a reason F-class shooter who compete nationally in 1000 yd matches complete a proper barrel break in. You may or may not notice a difference at 100 yds, but watch your groups open up as you increase the yardage? Not all barrels are created equally.

 

[myj]

>LAST EDITED ON Jun-02-10
>AT 08:52?PM (MST)
>
>Well here's what I decided after
>hearing what you guys had
>to say. I took a
>load between the lightest two
>and loaded it with varying
>bullet depths. I loaded five
>different loads at an even
>72 grains. The first seat
>depth is 3.340, 3.355, 3.375,
>3.395 and lastly 3.410. Five
>different loads with a total
>span of .070. I would
>have perhaps Tried for even
>more but I ran out
>of neck tension with the
>bullet and magazine length. I
>also took the 73.5 grain
>load and switched up Primers.
>I also tried a couple
>of different seat depths with
>this hotter load. I also
>like the fact that there
>is very little vertical variation.
>I will see what happens
>early Saturday and post my
>results.


The suspense is killing me. How did it shoot?

 

[NevHeadHntr]

Did you clean the barrel after each 3 shot group?
Was the barrel the same temp each group?

Looks like if everything else is the same the gun likes the lighter load. My experience is that .5 grains of powder in a load with 70 to 100 grains shouldn't make that much difference.
As far as the break in some barrels just don't shoot consistent until you shoot 50 or 60 shots, especially the custom barrels like lilja or shilen match grade.

Iwould try two more groups with the first load to see if you can match it if so stick with it or try different seating depths with that load.

 

[AZBuckSnort]

Did you fire any of these handloads over a chronograph to measure your velocities? You may find your answers if you do.

 

[Striker]

Alright fellas. Sorry for the delays, but they were out of my hands. Went to the range a week ago yesterday and they had it closed for the summer games. This week I got the opportunity to go yesterday morning at about 6:00am. The conditions were not perfect. However, they were good enough to get the results I needed to answer some questions.

In an earlier post I had mentioned that I loaded up 7 new four shot groups. to take and try. Of these several loads, 5 were were loaded with 72 grains. I did this because I would agree that My rifle likes them tamed down just a bit. The other 2 loads were loaded at the 73.5 grains from one of my other loads. Only this time I switched the Primers to Remington large rifle Magnums. I loaded each of these two loads with differing seat depths. The results were interesting to say the least.

First. The two loads at 73.5 grains. Remington Primers performed very similar to the CCI in the loads that had the same seat depths. In the load with Remington primers and a longer COAL. The group remained roughly the same size, but went from flat horizontal into a triangular pattern. It would be safe to conclude that my rifle did not like this charge weight as much as the lighter loads.

Second. The five loads at 72 grains. These loads had varying seat depths from 3.340 to 3.410. A total of .070 variation.

The loads were loaded at these lengths.
3.340"
3.355"
3.375"
3.395"
3.410"

The load of 3.340" measured roughly the same as the picture above. They also created a similar pattern on the paper

The load of 3.355" closed up to about 5/8 of an inch and the shot pattern was straight horizontal. It looked alike a stringed hole in a horizontal pattern.

The load of 3.375" opened up dramatically! It measured at 1 1/8 of an inch and was in a triangular type pattern.

The loads measuring 3.395" and 3.410" followed suite. They opened up a little more respectively the longer the COAL was. and they formed a similar pattern.

As mentioned above. The conditions were not perfect by any means. I was dealing with a wind blowing directly from the target to my shooting position at around 5 mph. I was not happy with this but knew it was much better than a cross wind. The Humidity I would venture to be 100% as it had rained all night. Fortunately it had stopped for a few hours in the morning to allow me to shoot. It was cold and wet though. The ability for a person to shoot is lessened in these circumstances, but I feel I got the data needed.

The rifle was clean and the shots were fired under similarly to those pictured above. My barrel was allowed to cool completely between groups.

Sorry for the lack of target pictures. They were compromised on the way home with rainfall and the wind in the back of the truck. apparently I was not smart enough to get them off the box for the ride home. I would have loved to have had them to share

Conclusion. I was very near the optimum COAL with my original loading. However, it wash worth the extra research and development to obtain the best COAL for my rifle. I am a fair length off of the lands. I took a rifle that would not shoot under 2 inches with factory loads is now shooting under .75 MOA! Mission accomplished. I am excited to try these on some game.

Thanks for your interest and please share your thoughts or ask any questions you may have.

Mike Twitchell

 

[BuckSnort]

Good Job Mike...Thats what it is about...Tweeking loads for optimum performance for each said gun...

Strange that the longer the OAL got the bigger the groups got...My rifles have been the opposite ..but, like I said each gun is different...

Thanks for taking the time to post the results...Now its time to let the air out of some critters...

Disclaimer:
The poster does not take any responsibility for any hurt or bad feelings. Reading threads poses inherent risks. The poster would like to remind readers to make sure they have a functional sense of humor before they visit any discussion board.

 

[ICMDEER]

Good post and good thoughts. I'm still not sure why you didn't try any other powders. My 300 Win mag shoots best (and fastest) with IMR 4350, and the RL22 suggestion was a good one, too.

But it sounds like the load you have works for you, so good work.

Hope you stack up some big ones.

 

[Striker]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-14-10 AT 10:25AM (MST)[p]ICMDEER,

I know that this is going to sound crazy. But you said that you did not understand why I did not try any other powders. I can understand the question completely. Here is why. I have been able to load for everyone of my calibers with only two powders. They are IMR 4064 and IMR 4831. At first glance this would seem silly. However it is very effective in the fact that I can stock a lot of powder and use it for many purposes. I like this approach better than trying to estimate how much I need now and how much I need in the future for any given caliber. Perhaps it is the Preparation for hard times to come mentality. There was a period here just a bit ago where I could not find the IMR 4831 for about 9 months. If I had not stocked up I would have been SOL.

 

[llamapacker]

While I understand the simplicity of stocking few powders, you are likely shortchanging yourself on the potential of this casrtridge. I would also strongly recommend you try RL22.

Sure, you have a load that will work with your chosen powder. If you can cut those groups in half with RL22, why not try?

BTW, making decions based on a single four shot group will eventually lead you astray. Shooting over a chrony is the best way to develop great reloads. Without this tool, you should shoot at least 5, 5 shot groups and average the results. Human error, as well as just plain luck, plays a big role in the measurement of any one group.

Bill

 

[Sagebrush1]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-19-10 AT 06:05AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jun-19-10 AT 06:00?AM (MST)

i wouldn't get stuck on just one bullet or powder for the 300 win mag. I have tried hornady's seirra's, nosler, and berger's out of them all the berger's shoot the best for me. the nosler's are a very good bullet also. pretty close to the berger's in the accuarcy department.
as others have said RL-22 is a very good powder for the 300 win mag. i will also recommend that you try RL-22 in your rifle.
i did find that in the 300 that I have if i keep the COAL at around the recommended length from all of the manuals that it will shoot sub moa groups for you.

here is a target from a load that I have for my rifle. this is a five shot group. i did replace the trigger with a timmey and put a H&S sporter stock on it. now I can get consistent groups like this.
rem 700 adl 300 win mag 24" barrel
Berger 180 gr VLD Hunting
RL-22 73.5 grains
COAL 3.350

 

[AyA]

Here is a vid of the break in procedure of a Kimber....Most wont get the gist of it, but a few of the brighter ones here will.

 

[Striker]

Sagebrush1

Hey that is awesome! I am glad to see that you have found some good results for your 300 Win. I am going to have to go against my reasoning and try some of the reloader 22. I have no doubt that it is a great choice. Perhaps now that I have found one load with the IMR 4831. I will venture out and experiment with some others. I have heard great things about Berger bullets. However I have heard that under 300 yards they can pass through game without proper expansion. This is a fear that I have in some regards. I have been dying to try some Accubonds.