See What You Are Up Against? - SFW

Zim

Zim

Very Active Member
Messages
2,319
LAST EDITED ON Apr-22-12 AT 08:58AM (MST)[p]Want to see the mentality AZ will be up against in the next legislative session?

I got into a dialog about SFW with X-Treme on this thread in the general forum, only to discover he is an SFW employee.........and he has never read the North American Model for Wildlife Conservation! And doesn't know what it is!

http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID5/19358.html

No, I am not kidding. He admitted so himself in a post.

Batten down the hatches for round 2 of the AZSFW tag theft attempt if this is the kind of mentality we are dealing with.


***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
billythekid,

I am a former board member of the largest wildlife org in my home state. I am a hunter's ed instructor. I belong to 5 wildlife orgs now.

What I know about you is that you have a family member that stands to benefit greatly financially if a tag grab occurs in Arizona. And in turn, you would benefit.

It seems the vast majority of SFW lovers out there are either SFW employees, such as X-Treme & SMOKESHAFT, or people like you with connections. It's a sad tale of people's morals these days, and backs up why so many dopes are willing to run to SLC to buy Expo tickets every year.

I am old school and always will be.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
and how do i benefit??? what kind of connections do i have? are you attacking my morals? are you saying that if people go to the SLC expo they have no morals? are you saying those who buy any type of land owner, auction, etc. tag they have no morals? please expand on your comments.
 
Hell yes I'm saying you have connections. You are about to be exposed on the general forum. What a liar you are.


***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
SFW is a JOKE!! They go about everything the wrong way! Just plain worthless IMO!!

Here in Arizona we won't have any tag grabbin going on, it can stay in the already ruined State of Utah...
 
>Hell yes I'm saying you have
>connections. You are about
>to be exposed on the
>general forum. What a
>liar you are.
>
>
>***********************************
>Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club,
>UBNM, UWC & the SFW
>Hate Club


like i said before zim, i benefit in no way from this "tag grab" other than the fact that i believe through monies raised our hunting heritage will be conserved. end of story. you don't get it i guess.

BTW, you didn't answer the other questions.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-24-12 AT 07:24AM (MST)[p]>and how do i benefit???
>what kind of connections do
>i have?

You are an outfitter, personally benefitting by increased business by your wealthy clients. You place no value in Joe Hunter.

are you
>attacking my morals?

Yes.

are
>you saying that if people
>go to the SLC expo
>they have no morals?

I'm saying anyone who buys those expo chances is supporting SFW and thus is either: Doesn't have a clue; Supports SFW because they have $$$ to gain in the form of wealthy clients or SFW employment (even SFW directors can buy tix! WTF??? ); Compromises their personal beliefs in the NAM in favor of personal benefit.

>are you saying those who
>buy any type of land
>owner, auction, etc. tag they
>have no morals?

Although I don't buy them, I don't know enough about all state's LO systems to comment. They difer. As to auction tags...........absolutely. No doubt about that.

please
>expand on your comments.

I did.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-24-12 AT 04:06PM (MST)[p]>why don't you call me you
>POS and quite lying.
>i gave you my number
>via p.m.

billythekid,

Why do you need to PM me? What do you have to hide? Maybe your real name? Why didn't you list your real name on your profile?

Then you PM me:

*************************************************
"what a liar i am. call me anytime. shane rhoton... 928 699 0422. let's talk. obviously you have a lot to say but you like to bark publicly.

you didn't answer my other questions.

BTW, i live 2000 miles away from arizona. i don't guide. i won't hunt az. in the next several years unless i am lucky. i do have an opinion, albeit diff. from yours. i don't benefit in any way from this so called "tag grab." i respect all opinions but can't stand people that like to publicly, via an internet forum, bash, belittle, and slander other people which is what you, topgun, and a few others continually engage in b/c they share a different opinion. call me and we can have it out.

nice credentials, lol... i have a few of my own. sigh, i'll pat my own back."

**************************************************

Shane, You didn't need to PM me your real name because I already knew it. I think you know that. I also know you live in Alaska. And I know your brother is in deep with Mossback. Ya, the one's so adamanly supporting Arizona HB2072.

Shane, why do you SFW model supporters find it necessary to lie so much? Is it so hard to be honest?

As I've posted so many times on here before, the only big SFW supporters on MM are either self-admitted SFW employees, concealed SFW employees, or outfitters who have great financial gains to be had by "tag grabs" for their clients. They just don't want to admit it all comes down to personal greed.

Why am I not surprised you are just another one of them? And the truth comes out. True, it's just your brother, but give us a break! And he may be a great guy, but you see, I will not compromise my morals nor beliefs in the NAMWC like he does. So we will never be the same. Why on god's green earth would I want to phone you??? There are 2 sides to bills like AZ HB2072, and there is ZERO compromise. You either auction tags, or you don't. I don't believe in 500, nor 350, nor 100, nor 50, nor 10, nor 1. So if you bill pushers are seeking a compromise, it would never happen with me.

On many websites I know, you would be banned for lying about your real name on your profile.


***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
ZIM---Have you noticed that about 90% of the SFW lovers have their profiles blocked and it's just the opposite for all of us who are taking them to task? Then you have this BTK dude who actually puts up a fictitous name on his profile. What are these guys afraid of?
 
Zim, you and topgun are the liars.

you say i am a guide really. LIAR... why don't you call me? don't really know what you're talking about with profile stuff. i signed up a long time ago. for anyone who cares my name is shane rhoton.
 
zim,

after doing a little search, i found that you may very well be a public employee that works in a police training institute instructing future policeman. if you are, it's an embarrassment to the public that a person in your capacity would sit on the internet and slander peoples names and character in the name of a bull or buck. you have a major issue with just confronting the problems, you take it upon yourself to attack people on a personal level with your irrational comments. calling people liars, accusing them publicly of holding jobs or positions they don't have to make you look better in your articulation of SFW, etc. you are indeed a piece of work. and yes, you should call me to have a good discussion about the current hot topics.

if this is not you, good. if it is, it's repulsive. shane
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-24-12 AT 11:02PM (MST)[p]Shane, You busted me!!! How did you know?! Yes, I may be on my laptop sometimes during regular hours, but I make up for it by staying late to work with my better students. I take my job very seriously!

9535photo_from_work.jpg

Working late training my prize student.

If you go look at the last thread I started in the general forum, you'll see it was I that was grossly and personally attacked, not what you describe at all. It's there for anyone to see right now!

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
zim, i don't have time to read through all your self inflicted drama. this is bt. me and you and nobody else. you have repeatedly lied, made character assassinations, and slandered me and others who do not believe like you via a public forum.

i could give a rats what your "prize student" looks like. once again, your above post shows your character. show that to your wife or daughter if you have one... they'll like it.

you made this personal not me. you sound like the typical cracker jack box "public servant" from Illinois. your state has a niche for folks like you... BARAK. did you vote for him? just curious.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-25-12 AT 02:16AM (MST)[p]No problem! I make it easy for you. Can you count to 1? That is how many responses it took to get to the first attack in that thread! Then #10 & #14. All unprovoked, all by people with fake or blocked profiles!

I have neither a wife nor daughter. And guess what? That is an actual fact! Not a lie like SFW is so good at. Hard to believe, isn't it?

Apparently you have some problem with Illinois? At least we eventually get it right and throw our criminals in jail, instead of auctioning & raffling public resources to pay their half mil "consultant fees". And that is a conservative guess due to their non-transparent documentation!


***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-25-12 AT 06:58AM (MST)[p]Shane,

You know that UT/OR thread got completely thrown off-topic by one of your boys (X-Treme), an SFW employee.....not by me! I was avoiding it even after 3 attacks! He is the one who took it over, and tried to instruct me! He admitted he had never even read nor was aware of the North American Model for Wildlife Conservation!

Son, guess what? I've been hunting in Utah and other states since 1983, long before there was any SFW. I used to live out there, and still have relatives in SLC. I am not a johnny-come-lately uneducated dope. I have watched SFW's activities from day one. I know exactly what they are......and I don't like it. Period.

I have worked for several honest, ethical wildlife orgs that had zero controvercy, zero corruption, zero theft of public resources. We got our legislation passed the battles won without the drama & greed SFW evokes.

Since the dawn of the internet, I've NEVER once had the need to post under a fake name. Folks that do have something to hide. Tell me Shane.........since you claim it's not because your brother is such a huge Arizona HB2072 tag theft proponent. What is it?

I'm sure by now you're aware I was able to arrange the KTVK news interview of Jerry Weiers. AZSFW pulled the plug on Gilstrap the day after those articles aired. I will continue to do my part to fight AZSFW's takeover of the game commissioner's approval board, and round 2 of the tag theft in the next legislative session............yes, all the way from Illinois. I do far more than spreading the truth on internet forums.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-25-12 AT 12:10PM (MST)[p]Hey Zim! You have to quit stirring this billy or Shane member up as now this is what I got in my inbox when I got up this morning:

From billythekid

Subject
RE: RE: RE: Brother
Date Wed Apr 25 2012
Message
both you and zim have made personal attacks on me. you are both irrational in your thought process and immature in your approach to issues. i am in no way affiliated with mossback. having the brother i do with the job he has (a fulltime accountant/part time best hunting guide in az. for big bulls) has nothing to do with me benefiting from SFW or tags sold at auction. my hard earned money (Dr. U.S. Army/moonlight my ass off after working all day in army) get's me what i have. not vested interest in mossback az. you guys have made attacks so out of character publicly on me that i am disgusted to consider you a fellow sportsman. you and zim can take your grass roots attitude and shove them up your ass. call me anytime to clarify your's and zim's false accusations about me or my brother. my name is shane rhoton, phone number is 928 699 0422, i live in alaska, have two beautiful kids, an awesome wife, a great job, live a humble lifestyle, and love to hunt. what else do you want to know before you make more childish attacks. call me please.


***I'd like to know where I've made one "attack", whether it be considered childish or any other "attack" on this guy! I've bantered back and forth a little and asked why he has his profile name showing as "Billy Kid" when he should have either blocked the profile or put up his real name. Then I mentioned it appeared he was soon to be outed and the chit hit the fan! IMO that was a lame excuse he has posted back to you regarding the name issue! Anyway, I told him I'd be more than happy to have an adult conversation, meaning none of that garbage like he just sent me by PM, and asked what time suited him for the phone call since we are on huge time zone differences. We have both openly stated why we are against SFW and I've yet to hear why this member is so positive for them when he lives in AK where the SFW backed Dir. Rossi just recently resigned in disgrace. If it's because his brother is a Mossback guide on a full or part time basis, why doesn't he just say that? If it isn't, why doesn't he just say why he backs them just like we say why we don't? It seems like all you get from these SFW backers is twisted and convuluted answers, if any at all!
PS: When you're done training that gal shooting in your picture, please send her my way as I have some time open for some free lessons on turkey hunting! I won't even require that she show up in full camo for the course!!!
 
hey pile #1 And pile #2,

what you guys have failed to realize in all but one of my posts regarding this issue is this. I will state it for your second grade level capabilities in CAPS.

THIS IS NOT A PRO OR ANTI AZSFW ISSUE TO ME. IT IS ABOUT ANY 501C ORG STEPPING UP TO THE PLATE AND COMBATING THE ISSUES. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHO IT IS (RMEF, AES, SFW, ETC.) THE AZGFD WILL NOT LOOK OUT FOR THE SPORTSMEN IN A WAY THAT A 501C ORG CAN. IE. ON WOLF ISSUES, BURRO ISSUES, WITH LOBBYISTS, WITH A BIAST TOWARDS "HUNTERS", ETC. THEY ARE MORE CONCERNED ABOUT NEUTRALITY AND MANAGING PEOPLE, BUREAUCRATS, MINNOWS, FROGS, ETC. THEY HAVE TO BE. THE ARE GOVERNMENT AGENCIES AND CAN'T TAKE A STANCE. IN ORDER TO COMBAT THESE ISSUES IN THE FUTURE AND PUT UP A GOOD FIGHT, IE. WITH THE HELP OF GOOD LOBBYING FIRMS, THOSE ORGS WILL NEED MORE FUNDING. I THINK THE IDEA OF GENERATING REVENUE BY AUCTION/RAFFLE TAGS IS A GREAT WAY TO RAISE SAID FUNDS. I AM NOT OPPOSED TO EITHER METHOD BEING USED, WHATEVER CREATES THE MOST REVENUE FOR THE ORGS TO USE FOR THE BETTERMENT AND SUSTAINING OF OUR HUNTING HERITAGE.

WHAT DON'T YOU GET. IT'S ABOUT THE MODEL, NOT ABOUT THE AZSFW OR OTHER ORGS. THE MODEL I SUPPORT. AZSFW WENT ABOUT THEIR SO CALLED "TAG GRAB" IN A BAD WAY. IMO, THEY SHOULD HAVE HAD PUBLIC DISCUSSIONS AND MORE TRANSPARANCY PRIOR TO MOVING FORWARD WITH THEIR AGENDA TO HONE THEIR PLAN AND MAKE IT MORE COMPATIBLE WITH GAINING PUBLIC SUPPORT.

MY NAME, SHANE RHOTON
 
Wolves are a federal issue, nonfactor in azsfw state lobby efforts. They do claim to have supported SFW and BGF in their national wolf efforts, kinda a friend of a friend deal and the results being suspect. Big Fin and Don's debate will shed some light on who was on who's side, doesn't look good for the SFW crowd.

Burros are a federal issue, same/same.

The FS travel and camping plans that are effecting us substantially are also out of the azsfw lobby realm. They are a non factor.

The 1.7 million acre GC monument plan going to Obama from the antis is also out of azsfw's lobby realm and they are a non factor.

The issue of legislating public monies to fund a private political lobby. That's against state statute now and a socialist maneuver, a reduction of the democratic process.

What have they accomplished since 06 against state or federal attacks on hunting from the antis? Things the antis brought up and they've been able to reverse. Seems they've spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on a lobbyist, with no results?

I have no problem with them generating funds as a nonprofit private org and taking on the issues they deem fit... I will fight anyone that wants to legislate public funds as a bailout/stimulus because they suck at fund raising or the public just doesn't see them as worth their donations... We are in the mist of a socialist movement and we need to bring democracy and conservatism back.

When it comes to 'real' issues like the FS travel plans and GC monument plan... azsfw is nowhere to be seen and worthless.

Kent
 
Shane,

If I felt SFW did an efficient job at battling real political issues, I might support them. However, I have watched what they have accomplished and how they've gone about it for 15 years! Not 3 or 4. Fifteen. Since 1997. And I've watched how they lack the transparency all other ethical orgs provide. There is a laundry list of controversy and corruption! It's not like this is strictly about our perception of them violating the NAMWC. There is a long, long history this group brings to the table.


***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-25-12 AT 03:10PM (MST)[p]Shane---There was no need for the Caps(shouting in internet terms)! You are obviously in the minority if you don't care how those funds are raised by an organization. If you think the SFW is putting enough of the money that they are grabbing from everyone that doesn't have a chance at a tag back on the ground, then you again are in the minority. FYI, it may be as low as 25%, and maybe less, as compared to over 90% for the RMEF! If you don't think there should be full transparency in how the money that was gained by the organization was spent, then you again are in the vast minority. You stated: "I AM NOT OPPOSED TO EITHER METHOD BEING USED, WHATEVER CREATES THE MOST REVENUE FOR THE ORGS TO USE FOR THE BETTERMENT AND SUSTAINING OF OUR HUNTING HERITAGE". Do you not realize that what you just stated will end up doing just the opposite for the majority of people in the US that are not well-to-do and that we will end up just like most of Europe where only the wealthy can hunt? Maybe you figure that as a Doctor you will make enough money to afford to hunt where and when you want to and don't give a rip about the next guy! Thanks for the update on where you really stand and I guess your post eliminated any need or reason for a phone call to you. Have a good day!
 
>LAST EDITED ON Apr-25-12
>AT 03:10?PM (MST)
>
>Shane---There was no need for the
>Caps(shouting in internet terms)!
>You are obviously in the
>minority if you don't care
>how those funds are raised
>by an organization. If
>you think the SFW is
>putting enough of the money
>that they are grabbing from
>everyone that doesn't have a
>chance at a tag back
>on the ground, then you
>again are in the minority.
> FYI, it may be
>as low as 25%, and
>maybe less, as compared to
>over 90% for the RMEF!
> If you don't think
>there should be full transparency
>in how the money that
>was gained by the organization
>was spent, then you again
>are in the vast minority.
> You stated: "I AM
>NOT OPPOSED TO EITHER METHOD
>BEING USED, WHATEVER CREATES THE
>MOST REVENUE FOR THE ORGS
>TO USE FOR THE BETTERMENT
>AND SUSTAINING OF OUR HUNTING
>HERITAGE". Do you not
>realize that what you just
>stated will end up doing
>just the opposite for the
>majority of people in the
>US that are not well-to-do
>and that we will end
>up just like most of
>Europe where only the wealthy
>can hunt? Maybe you
>figure that as a Doctor
>you will make enough money
>to afford to hunt where
>and when you want to
>and don't give a rip
>about the next guy!
>Thanks for the update on
>where you really stand and
>I guess your post eliminated
>any need or reason for
>a phone call to you.
> Have a good day!
>


once again you show your inability to comprehend, even in caps. this isn's about sfw. i couldn't care less if RMEF or AES had more money to combat the issues. i never mentioned one thing about sfw vs. rmef and how they appropriate monies. what in the hell do you think i meant you retard when i said there should be more transparancy? what you don't get or any other eastern liberal doesn't get is that more money needs to be raised that the AZGFD doesn't get their paws on. they are not looking out for you in a lot of ways as a sportsman. i am not saying that they don't do what they can. they are very limited what they can and can't do as a gov. agency. they can't pick sides, orgs can. it takes money to combat these issues, not a bunch of internet whining liberals from back east.
 
SFW has dropped the ball and chosen the wrong side on many, many legislative issues. Simpson/Tester wolf legislation and WY stream access are two very good examples. They use their money too many times to promote bills favorable to the wealthy, not Joe Hunter. And they have proven dishonest so many times I can't count. Why?

Shane, one simple undeniable example.......Please explain this:


March 28, 2012
To all Arizona RMEF Members
The Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation (RMEF) became aware of House Bill 2072, an act related to Big Game Tags and Permits introduced to the Arizona Legislature, earlier this month. The RMEF, representing over 5,500 members in Arizona and over 185,000 in the US, went on record opposing the bill in a letter to Arizona Governor Janice K. Brewer.
RMEF is now appealing to you, our members in Arizona, to make your voice heard on this poorly crafted legislation. HB 2072 would allocate a significant number of Arizona?s most prestigious and already limited permits to a ?conservation? organization, most likely, Arizona Sportsmen for Wildlife, the primary advocates of this legislation. This action would undermine one of the most basic tenants of the North American Wildlife Conservation Model?that hunting is an opportunity for all. The allocation of 330 special permits for auction and raffle in a state with already limited public opportunity would be nothing short of a travesty and it will take away tags from those who participate in the public draw system.
The absurdity of HB 2072 does not stop there. This bill allows the ?conservation? group selling these permits to exclusively retain an unreasonable percentage of the gross proceeds from the sale of these permits to cover administrative and operating expenses. The RMEF is proud to report that an average of only 8% of all Governor?s and Commissioner?s permits RMEF offers nationwide is retained for administrative purposes. 92% of the gross proceeds have been returned to the states and conservation projects to be invested only in benefiting wildlife and their habitat.
In Arizona specifically, RMEF currently returns 100% of the sale proceeds from the one special elk permit we sell. RMEF actually loses approximately $3,500 annually through direct expenses associated with handling the AZ elk permit. While RMEF believes it is appropriate for organizations to recover direct expenses associated with selling special permits, we firmly believe that private, non-profit entities should not take public assets to support their operational expenses. We operate RMEF the old fashion way, we work for what we get. We are not guaranteed any tags or licenses to create operational revenue.
As a member of RMEF and resident of Arizona it is time to contact your legislator and make your position known on HB 2072, or any similar legislative attempts to take public wildlife from the public. Please act today as this legislation would significantly impact your opportunity to hunt your prized big game species in your home state.
Sincerely,
M. David Allen President and CEO Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation


Shane, Please just explain for us why this happened.


***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
BTK,
I've watched this debate from the sideline just to see where it goes.
You identify yourself as a Doctor in the U.S. Army, hopefully not commissioned as you have presented yourself as a real ?class act?. I'll give you one point, Zim called you a liar. Your ?class? responses have been ?POS?, ?liar?, ?Pile #1?, ?Retard? and had ?Pile #2? for someone else.
I wasn?t going to comment until this post, attacking the Arizona Game and Fish Commission and Department. You obviously know little about how hard this agency works for all citizens of Arizona. How many times have you had direct contact with a Commissioner, the Director or any senior staff member? How many times have you watched the Department's Legislative Liaison in hearings at the Capitol, fighting for sportsmen?
Do you know why AZSFW kept HB 2072 under the radar? Their stated reason, was to keep the ?antis?, (Sierra Club, CBD, Defenders of Wildlife etc.) unaware. They lumped 99.9% of the sportsmen in Arizona with the ?anti? crowd. .1% of the sportsmen in Arizona may have known of the concept but and even smaller percentage knew of the exact language.
George
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-25-12 AT 08:04PM (MST)[p]BTK stated: "once again you show your inability to comprehend, even in caps. this isn's about sfw. i couldn't care less if RMEF or AES had more money to combat the issues. i never mentioned one thing about sfw vs. rmef and how they appropriate monies. what in the hell do you think i meant you retard when i said there should be more transparancy? what you don't get or any other eastern liberal doesn't get is that more money needs to be raised that the AZGFD doesn't get their paws on. they are not looking out for you in a lot of ways as a sportsman. i am not saying that they don't do what they can. they are very limited what they can and can't do as a gov. agency. they can't pick sides, orgs can. it takes money to combat these issues, not a bunch of internet whining liberals from back east."

***I'm glad Yumatracker stated what he did before I make this post because if you are what you say you are, you are a pizz poor representative of the armed services and your profession! I was not just referring to the SFW and RMEF, but just using them as an example of how things can be done properly or improperly. I am well aware that the G&F Depts. can't lobby, etc. and that all those departments need more money to do their job properly. To classify me as an eastern liberal is absolute BS because if you knew me you'd know that I'm about as opposite of that classification as you can get! Furthermore, calling me a "whining liberal from back east" is ridiculous because all I want is any organization to obtain their money properly and to spend it wisely. That does not mean to get it any way they can like you seem to feel they should (end justifies the means?) and by that I mean to the detriment of the NAM and most common folks who don't make six digit salaries or higher to go out and buy those high priced tags that you don't seem to have any problem with! How you can justify any organization that operates that way as making a positive contribution for future generations, other than the few rich people that are in the minority, is beyond my comprehension.
 
>BTK,
>I've watched this debate from the
>sideline just to see where
>it goes.
>You identify yourself as a Doctor
>in the U.S. Army, hopefully
>not commissioned as you have
>presented yourself as a real
>?class act?. I'll give
>you one point, Zim called
>you a liar. Your ?class?
>responses have been ?POS?, ?liar?,
>?Pile #1?, ?Retard? and had
>?Pile #2? for someone else.
>
>I wasn?t going to comment until
>this post, attacking the Arizona
>Game and Fish Commission and
>Department. You obviously know
>little about how hard this
>agency works for all citizens
>of Arizona. How many
>times have you had direct
>contact with a Commissioner, the
>Director or any senior staff
>member? How many times
>have you watched the Department's
>Legislative Liaison in hearings at
>the Capitol, fighting for sportsmen?
>
>Do you know why AZSFW kept
>HB 2072 under the radar?
> Their stated reason, was
>to keep the ?antis?, (Sierra
>Club, CBD, Defenders of Wildlife
>etc.) unaware. They lumped
>99.9% of the sportsmen in
>Arizona with the ?anti? crowd.
>.1% of the sportsmen in
>Arizona may have known of
>the concept but and even
>smaller percentage knew of the
>exact language.
>George


george,

tack on the fact that zim said publicly he questioned my moral, called me a liar, lied about me being an outfitter, lied about me being involved with SFW in any way, lied about me financially benefiting from a "tag grab", etc...

they might have brought out the worst in me, but i can't and won't let someone attack the way these mongrels do. i stooped down to topguns and zim's level and i would regret it if they were worth feeling remorse for. if i have spoke of anyone else in the way i have spoken of topgun or zim i am sorry, but for those two, not hardly "POS", "LIAR", and "PILE" describe their antics well.

you missed the point when i said that the AZGFD can't do what ORG's can. you hit the nail on the head, IMO, when you said "You obviously know little about how hard this agency works for all citizens of Arizona." that is a great thing. they have their place. but their place is not to raise hell against the wolves, their place is not to raise hell against the anti-hunting crowds, their place is not look out ONLY for the big game hunter. Their place is to look out for, as you stated, all sportsmen of Az. This would include the frog lovers, minnow trackers, etc. Because of this, i would like to see more money filtered to the Orgs to take on the problems the AZGFD can't do effectively.

you also missed the point where i said that the AZSFW should have been more transparent and involved the public through lengthy discussion.

it is my opinion that they would have had much more success with the public had they gone about their business differently.

i still agree with the auctioning or raffling of big game tags to fight "big game issues."

how did you twist what i said into what you think i said?

shane
 
Shane.

"how did you twist what I said, into what you think I said?"
Gee Shane, I don't see how I twisted anything you said.
 
>Shane.
>
>"how did you twist what I
>said, into what you think
>I said?"
>Gee Shane, I don't see how
>I twisted anything you said.
>


well i guess when you say i attacked the azgfd. i don't see how i did that. do you think they can defend ALL the issues big game hunters will face in the future? do you think no other ORG's are needed, including MDF, RMEF, AES, etc.? just curious
 
I think theres a common misconception thta all you need for any fight is money. Shane, while I do agree that there are battles that need to be fought and they need funding to be fought, many times our voices alone make the difference. I don't think there was alot of money spent to fight HB2072. Its not until you run a legislative campaign or get into lawsuits that you need big dollars. And yes, we do need outside sources of funding to fight this stuff. What do the anti's do? They run ads on TV with sad puppies on them and the money rolls in. Our national orgs need to start some big, creative ad campaigns to ramp up the funding. I don't think canniblizing ourselves because of lack of participation in the answer. We need to get more sportsmen involved. Maybe they need to have commercials with whitetails with CW disease standing there shivering in the cold or pictures of roadkilled fawns with spots on them. We need to play it like the anti's do. We have logic on our side, add some emotion and you could have a great ad campaign.

Point is man, because of the lack of creativity by conservation orgs, they think we need to canniblize ourselves because we just don't have the participation. I don't agree, if we find a way to appeal the masses of sportsmen who aren't funding our fight and get them to give to the cause, we won't have to eat our children to survive. And thats exactly what we are doing by selling off tags.

Donnie


"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
BTK---This is beginning to be a circle jerk just like it is when we try to explain things to Birdman! For you to continue on with your lousy language and name calling does not speak very well for anyone who wants to debate a topic and have others see their side of an issue. Show me anywhere in any thread where I have attacked you with anything similar to what you've sent me in PMs or written out on this thread! C/P it if it's there, but there won't be any C/ping for you to do because there isn't any. All I've done is disagree with you on the tag grab and how the SFW gets the money they use to pay salaries, consultant fees, lobbyist fee, etc. Along with that I have chastized you for using a false name on your profile, which makes it appear you have something to hide, whether that be the case or not. Most of the people debating on these forums in favor of SFW are either employees or guide/outfitters who have a vested interest in seeing that SFW continues what it is doing. If your brother is in the latter group to any extent, then it is understandable that one would think that is why you are in favor of tag auctions, etc. If that is not the case, then we will throw that out of the equation, but you still say you are in favor of the way organizations like SFW make their money and have no problem with it. It's not the fact that they are there to fight for things like other organizations do. We all know that these types of groups are necessary to do what they do because of the lack of money and other limitations placed on government agencies. It's the fact that the way they make their money is against the NAM and they will not show what they take in and where it goes. If you think that's okay, and you appear to when you still say that you agree with high roller tag auctions, then you're in for a battle with all of us who feel the opposite. We don't want to see the US end up like Europe and that's the way we will be if the ways of SFW are allowed to continue festering in other states where their way is money talks and the poor folk are completely left out of hunting!
 
I'll add this. And... Both sides are guilty btw.

This name calling stuff is below us. I find myself disagreeing with people I philosophically agree with just because of the language they use. Nothing and I mean nothing shuts a good debate down like name calling. You sound like a bunch of 8th graders. I tell you what, as soon as someone gets personal, I shut down and my mind slams shut. All it tells me is that someone doesn't have the facts to make a good argument so they make it personal. If you want people to listen, don't get personal. I don't completely agree with BTK but I would go hunting with him, at the drop of a hat.

Guys, stop the name calling BS. Its not worth the heartache. Don't say anything, to anyone... That you couldn't or wouldn't say to their face. I can promise you 99 percent of the name calling grade school crap wouldn't happen if people made that policy for themselves.

Donnie

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
I'll add this. And... Both sides are guilty btw.

This name calling stuff is below us. I find myself disagreeing with people I philosophically agree with just because of the language they use. Nothing and I mean nothing shuts a good debate down like name calling. You sound like a bunch of 8th graders. I tell you what, as soon as someone gets personal, I shut down and my mind slams shut. All it tells me is that someone doesn't have the facts to make a good argument so they make it personal. If you want people to listen, don't get personal. I don't completely agree with BTK but I would go hunting with him, at the drop of a hat.

Guys, stop the name calling BS. Its not worth the heartache. Don't say anything, to anyone... That you couldn't or wouldn't say to their face. I can promise you 99 percent of the name calling grade school crap wouldn't happen if people made that policy for themselves.

Donnie


Taadaaa!!!! Every time someone uses a person's name (not as a salutation, obviously) or the word "you" in a reply, the chances are real good that the message needs to be reread and perhaps edited.

Donnie is dead on. Stick to the issue and forget all the personal BS.

TONY MANDILE
48e63dfa482a34a9.jpg

How To Hunt Coues Deer
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-26-12 AT 09:53AM (MST)[p]So where in my last post did I do anything to violate what you guys are stating? In fact, I have gone back in this entire thread and find that I have made 5 posts (Numbers 10, 17, 21, 25, and 30). Absolutely nowhere in any of those posts did I use one foul word against BTK or anyone else. All that was stated were the reasons for my side of the debate. Now go back and read the responses by BTK where I was called a POS, Pile #2, retard, stick it up my ass, etc. I have tried to remain civil in this entire thread even after all of that and the only thing I stated personally back to BTK was that doing what he was doing was a pizz poor example for a person in the professions he said he was involved in. In the past I will admit that I've been caught up in stuff like you guys are mentioning and I am trying, just as I did in this thread, to remain civil and do what you suggest for the exact reasons you have stated. Peace, and I'm out of here because there is obviously no debating on this subject with any of these people that think the SFW is okay and doesn't violate the NAM and the average guy!
 
I am a guide in arizona and have guided for several diff outfiters over the years. Its kind of funny that the only people that are for the bill seem to be other guides. I have not met one other average joe or serious joe for that matter that thinks this bill is a good idea. I think the bill is a horrible idea, and it absolutely will benefit other guides in this state, especially the big operations and in a direct way. I dont think it takes being a guide to understand how this tag give away to the rich would help guides in this state get more clients with money to burn and giant tips, not to mention more magazine exposure from the slaughter of our top end animals. Not trying to call anyone out but lets call a spade a spade gentleman, and fellow guides. This bill was a total sham from the beginning, and was a fame / ego/ money grab from the beggining.Hope everyone has a great year in the field this year and we can all rest easier that many of our top end animals will be left or safe from the tag grab and available next year for the average joe, like me. My name is dave melde.
 
Thanks for a great post david! However, we can never let out guard down when we have the people out there trying to do this kind of tag grab behind our backs! All you have to do is look at what Suzanne Gilstrp tried to do by again going straight to Governor Brewer to try and get the Bill back on track after it was pulled off the table. Rest assured they will be back again and the fight is not over. You have a good season and be safe out there---MIKE (unblocked profile)Stephenson
 
Just wanted to make it very clear that i have nothing against shane, as i have never met him in my life, or any of the mossback guides. I have alot of respect for the mossback crew for their efforts in the field and for putting so many giants on the ground over the years. I wasnt trying to call anyone out specifically but any guide in general that thinks this bill isnt about money, fame, more big tips, and less chance for the average joe to get a tag and go huntin with his friends and family.
 
I wasn't refering to you TOP, just so you know.

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
I will throw my 2 cents in here as well concerning HB2072.

I have sat and watched and listened to both sides of the argument since this thing got going. At first I was like many of you calling for heads and ready for war. Since then, I have had the opportunity to actually speak on the phone to people who did like the concept of the bill, maybe not the way it was brought about but the concept. While I myself don't personally like anything about the bill, I do understand some of the motive.

Yes, guides did stand to benefit from it, no doubt. People who could afford to buy auction tags did as well. Folks than run the expos and even the vendors stood to profit. But... Its a catch 22. Sportsmen as a whole have not stepped up to fianance the fight against the anti's. I know a lot of you have heard my comments on this but they beg repeating. If we had been doing all we could to donate our time and money to the fight, AZSFW would not have had reason or excuse to go after tags. Theirs no arguing that point. How does that scripture go? Remove the plank out of your own eye before you try and remove the speck out of your neighbors! We are all up in arms about people try to grab our tags but we are apathetic in our duties to conservation. I made this analogy on another site. "YEAH its my dog, I don't feed it, I don't give it water, I don't provide shelter for it and I don't take it to the vet.... But its MY dog and you'd better not try and take it from me!"

Its our public, renewable rescource. It is our duty as so called conservationists to take care of it. Our game and fish departments have to deal with wolf reintroductions, black footed ferets and every other assortment of creaping creature. The funds just aren't available to do everything. If we don't stand up and take care of our wildlife, with our money, bills like HB2072 will get passed, eventually. Everyone is up in arms about road closures right now. I know for an absolute fact that AES has been fighting that deal for more than a few years. But, 3 years ago, nobody was worried about it. Now that its a done deal everyone is all upset. Well, if you were paying attention, you could have made a big deal back then and got it stopped. We as a group had better step the heck up and take care of OUR wildlife and quit this stupid bickering just for the sake of it or we WILL lose it.

Donnie


"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
dave and azwalker,

i appreciate your opinion. on azwalkers stance, i think that he raises some valid solutions to fund raising. it is true that other org's can run tv ad asking for donations and phone robo calls. this takes a concerted effort and money that is don't think exists RIGHT NOW. i also would disagree that the biggest issues facing sportsmen across the west can be combated with a grass roots effort in the way the house bill was. my reasoning is that the house bill was an internal issue with the "hunting public." the issues of wolves, predator management, saving minnows and frogs over prioritizing for big game, appropriating equal monies for species that bring NO revenue back to the state vs. our precious big game, etc. are not internal issues with the hunting public. they open up the ball game to the sierra club and other org's that have massive financial backing, lobbyists, etc. and the "hunting public" will have to play at the same level. i do not think it's possible to raise enough money to fight these type of battles through the sale of big game tags alone. it will take a much more concerted effort in the future to preserve our right to hunt, manage for the "big game" and not with it in mind, maintain quality and both quantity over time, balance opportunity vs. qualtiy, etc.

couesmagnent, i agree that the initial knee jerk response to auctioning/raffling off big game tags is that it's taking from the public and puting it into the 1% private sector effectively eliminating opportunity and creating a class warfare environment bt. like people, ie. hunters. however, i have not heard of any solutions to raise the type of monies needed to fight for our future hunting heritage.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-26-12 AT 07:33PM (MST)[p]You're spot on Billy. I get why they pushed HB2072. But now that hunters have spoken and I do agree with them, they had better damn well step up if they don't want another bill like that in a couple years.

If we as hunters don't step up drastically in the next 10-15 years, things are going to get so bad that we'll wish for another shot at HB2072.

You guys think I'm kidding? Look at the next generation coming up. You see them out hunting? Bye bye hunting if we don't change our apathetic ways. No more deer tags, no more elk tags 100,000,000 arces of land that looked like it did 10,000 years before indians got here and you'll be able to see it... in pictures.

HB2072 is dead. Now heres you shot at showing everyone why we don't need more auction tags going out!


"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
BTK

That's the best post I've seen from you. The problem with auction tags is just that they bring out the worst people that try to take advantage of a situation to make money for themselves. The real issue is raising enough money to do all the things necessary. I believe there are enough good people willing to work on a volunteer basis to do the fund raising and field work. No one should be looking to make a living under the guise of wildlife conservation.

We should look at starting a wildlife PAC to raise funds (not auction tags) for lobbying and supporting legislators as a separate and distinct function. We have the Habitat Partnership Committee to do field work and there are many ways to fund that effort if more money is needed there.
 
To my knowledge the funding for non-game comes mostly from the heritage fund (lottery and indian gaming) while the funding for game management comes from license/tag sales and Pittman-Robertson (federal excise tax on firearms, ammo, etc.). There's no doubt more dollars are needed for the issues facing wildlife and sportsmen/women. One thing I've noticed is how commercially driven hunting has become. I see hunters (myself included) using more gadgets than ever. How many of these "gadgets" have the excise tax placed on them for P-R fund? I know my rifle and ammo do but what about my binoculars, GPS, rangefinder, backpack, camouflage clothing, tripod, scope caps, sling, .......? Could the things that fall under this excise tax be revisited and expanded? Could this generate more revenue for game management purposes in a way that doesn't favor the wealthiest of sportsmen? I'm always skeptical about giving the government more money because of it's inherent Inefficiency and lack of transparency but, if the alternative is auctioning off the public wildlife, it may be the lesser of two evils. Just food for thought.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-27-12 AT 03:25PM (MST)[p]A good portion of the P-R funds (doled out by the number of hunting licenses sold in each state) here is used for Hunter Ed and shooting range development, etc. But some of it also goes into habitat restoration projects.

And another source of non-game funding comes through the AZ Tax check-off.

As for this: "How many of these "gadgets" have the excise tax placed on them for P-R fund? I know my rifle and ammo do but what about my binoculars, GPS, rangefinder, backpack, camouflage clothing, tripod, scope caps, sling, .......?"

Pretty much all gear used by shooters, bowhunters and hunters EXCLUSIVELY is already included in P-R taxes. The problem with some of the others mentioned is broad usage by so many other folks, such as birdwatchers, campers and backpackers. Many of them would get upset knowing their taxes are going to support animals with targets painted on them.

TONY MANDILE
48e63dfa482a34a9.jpg

How To Hunt Coues Deer
 
Come on, Tony. Its just a matter of putting a good spin on it. Improving habitat and lobbying for access is just as good for a birder or hiker. Getting more gear added to Pittmann-Robertson would be great, but I suspect its a pretty big job.
 
"We should look at starting a wildlife PAC to raise funds (not auction tags) for lobbying and supporting legislators as a separate and distinct function. We have the Habitat Partnership Committee to do field work and there are many ways to fund that effort if more money is needed there."


Good idea. I think building strong bridges between the different state orgs would be a great start. The other thing that MUST happen is we need more hunters involved in actual conservation. We need a big move in thet direction.

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
"We should look at starting a wildlife PAC to raise funds (not auction tags) for lobbying and supporting legislators as a separate and distinct function. We have the Habitat Partnership Committee to do field work and there are many ways to fund that effort if more money is needed there."

Good idea sage...We need to do something to keep us from tearing ourselves apart while the anti's continue to gain more ground. It's an inch at a time but an inch eventually grows into a mile. The more I think about what you said, the more sence it makes..














Gun control is a good aim and a steady rest
 
these are all great talking points. after reading everyone's great suggestions, i find this the most compelling argument for raising funds in a way that the gov. doesn't get the revunue:


"I'm always skeptical about giving the government more money because of it's inherent Inefficiency and lack of transparency but, if the alternative is auctioning off the public wildlife, it may be the lesser of two evils. Just food for thought."


i agree with the first part. i disagree at this point with the second part of this statement. i think gov. is the evil when it comes to combating issues that the gov. has created: ie. wolf reintroductions, wild burro acts, minnow recovery efforts, banning trapping, etc.


auctioning/raffling "public" wildlife" has been the most viable way i have seen to raise $ in the amounts of 1-3 million a year that can be directly used by the private sector to improve the outlook for future hunters. it is a massive and somewhat risky investment. the stock market (not the dow jones) might crash and the investment could be for naught, or the market could take off and the payoff great. for this reason i think there needs to be more discussion as to the specifics of how the revenue will be spent, budgeted, and what the expected payoff will be if sportsmen make the initial investment. i like the idea of money available to ANY ORG that can come up with a "plan" as to what they would do with it. i think it would be interesting to establish a fund based off tag sales that goes like this for example:

1. x amount of tags will be sold
2. out of the revenue generated from these tags sold, the AZGFD will be paid 10% to cover the cost of wildlife and the rest of the 90% will be spent by the ORG with the best "plan."

this would be complex. however, it would create a competitive environment for the different orgs to "get it done." it would cause ORG's to think outside of the box as to how they approached wildlife conservation. is it money better spent doing just habitat improvements, is it better to pay lobbyists to fight bigger issues, are the lobbyists effective at "winning" or lobbying for sportsmen, is a funded predator control program worth it, should ORG's pay a bounty on mountain lions and or coyotes, etc. lot's to think about. i am not sold that there is a better more guaranteed way to annually raise 1-3 million dollars.
 
Off topic a little but I would like to point something out guys.

See what happens when civility is injected into a debate?

It allows you to take a more thoughtful approach and really come up with creative ideas.

Did anyone notice that as soon as it got civil, certain people abandoned the discussion?

BTK, you make some great points. I'm finding myself understanding the other side of the coin more every day.

I do not however think the dept is evil. I think funds going back into the HPC is the only way I would sign on to a tag grab. I would rather see the HPC expanded to include political issues rather than see a private entity have control of the funds.

The perfect scenerio in my mind would be to see sportsmen step up and finance the fight but I'm not completely convinced that will happen. I feel like a lone voice in the wilderness trying to get sportsmen to step up to the plate. Apathy again!

Donnie


"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
Non-Resis have been supporting the cause in Az forever with high price tags,license cost,ect. Why not raise the resident cost of hunting as well.PAY TO PLAY, imagine if all the resident bull elk tags were 500.00$. Take care of your own house first... just a thought. BH1
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-30-12 AT 11:47AM (MST)[p]
AZWALKER stated: "Did anyone notice that as soon as it got civil, certain people abandoned the discussion?"


*** Just got back from three days mentoring kids on their turkey hunts with our NWTF Chapter over in Battle Creek, so maybe some "certain people" have been doing some constructive stuff with their valuable time! I would hope and wish that all discussions of substance could stay as civil as it looks like this one has turned in the last couple days! I'm still completely against auctioning tags, but BTK has now brought up some good ideas as to how money could be used or allocated that I could probably go for, just not how it's obtained or who it might go to. In my mind, just by raising the resident tag fees a decent amount with that percentage of money going to what we are talking about would get the job done without auctioning tags to the highest bidder. I could also probably go with the $5 raffle tickets that everyone should be able to afford if you allowed everyone to buy them by mail or online. It could be done by the Dept. or possibly an organization that got no money back and was just doing it to help wildlife and not their own cause. Carry on gentlemen!!!
 
I don't think the HPC can be used for lobbying and legislative projects. I know the Commission and the Department cannot lobby and certainly can't support sympathetic legislators. That's where a separate organization comes into play and funding should come from traditional fund raising sources such as membership dues, banquets, raffles, project specific donations, etc (just not auction tags). Since the HPC is chaired by a member of the Commission, that may preclude it from lobbying activities.
 
Lmao, again TOP, wasn't talking about you. I was on a waterhole project myself.

Sage, I didn't figure HPC would or could do any of that. The Sportsmens Contituents group would fall under the same catagory then as well because that is led by a commissioner.

Yep, good ol non-apathetic participation from sportsmen themselves is what will fix this, we'll see. Wish in one hand and you know what in the other.

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
Raising resident fees is not the solution, I think it would actually hurt things. This year i had to pay for three family members to put in for elk hunting and it took every last penny I had to due it. Hunting is suppose to be a family thing but if they keep raising the cost for residents of a state to hunt I will no longer be able to pass on the hunting tradition to my kids so another generation of hunters will be lost for ever. We need to keep prizes down. After all I know my family and many other families around us that volunteer our time to help clean up both private and public lands so that we can continue to have places to hunt without having to pay landowner fees or buy tags from Guides in order to hunt. The day landowner tags or tag grabs are given in Arizona I know my family will no longer be able to afford to hunt and we will loose more kids to video games.
 
AZWALKER---Sorry about that! I guess I'm getting a little paranoid when I'm getting clobbered by someone and then read something like you posted when I'm out doing something I really believe in like helping kids get started down the right path. Something similar happened a couple other times when I didn't get back on a thread within just a few hours and was called out for it.
 
good questions about the "public wildlife" quotations.

i put them there b/c some people feel wildlife belongs to them and some don't. IMO, the wildlife is part of a public/private pact. how the percentages play out is tricky. at what point do you say large land owners with vast amounts of land, ie. ted turner, own the wildlife? if an animal is born, lives, and dies on a piece of private property is it the public's? these are topics i am not willing to debate right now. for me, i will need some time to answer this question. i don't want to mislead anyone as to how i feel. there are to many variables that make up the equation.

how do you feel?
 
TOP, I have alot of respect for you man. You won't see any public attacks from me.

BTK, tough subject and that discussion could go on for a lifetime. Legally, the wildlife in Arizona belongs to the people of the state of Arizona. I believe that became federal law with the Reid bill.

I think wildlife belonging to anyone but everyone gets into the "kings deer" line of thinking. Like I said, it can be argued to death but it matters not. If you are a Texas landowner and you purchase whitetail deer and put them on your property fine. Nowhere in Arizona does that instance occur except maybe bird farms. I hope it stays that way.


"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
Thanks man, as that means a lot to me! As far as the question that BTK has now presented, I think you will find that game animals are considered public property everywhere in our country, unless they are under a high fence where they cannot move off that private property. However, if a private property owner under a low fence where animals can move freely will not allow access onto the property they might as well be considered his or "the King's deer"! The one problem I have with that is when farmers/ranchers start getting money for crop damage, etc., and will not allow controlled culling on their property to alleviate a bad situation. IMHO, if that is the case, they should only be able to kill animals during the regular season with legal tags and should bite the bullet themselves for not allowing the excess animals to be controlled by legal means. I just read a newspiece where some rancher took it into his own hands and shot five big bull elk recently on his place because of alleged crop damage. Then it is claimed he called the authorities and told them to go in on foot and haul them away without gutting them on his property. IMHO he should have the book tossed at him for such an egregious waste of wildlife when people could have been allowed to legally control a bad situation that it appears he may have. It sounds like he just took the law into his own hands and is going to get away with it!
 
Exactly!! What would have happened had 5 of his prized bulls come on your property tearing up your garden and you shot them. They'd throw the flippin book at you!

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
Wildlife is public property, just like air. We all have an undivided equal interest. Restrictions on the movement of wildlife do not change the ownership.

Don't rush to judgement on the landowner that killed the elk. If its the same situation I read about, there is another side to this story.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-01-12 AT 06:26PM (MST)[p]sagebrush---Most all states that I'm aware of consider the animals that are in high fenced places that retrict their movement to be owned by the property owner. Some allow them to do whatever they want with those animals, while others require that the same game laws and seasons be obeyed within the confines of the property.
In the situation with the guy killing those 5 bull elk, I read that he supposedly has had no help from the game department in alleviating a crop damage problem. However, it would seem that he should have gone to court or something to try and force something to be done. Maybe he did and had decided the killing of the animals was a last resort. If killing five big bulls, rather than some cows, doesn't get the message across and start the ball rolling, then the G&F should get out of Dodge! I know if it was my place I still could not go to the extent he did in killing those magnificent animals and then just leaving them there in the field with stipulations to the G&F that I read about.
 
Most everybody here has some very good points (TOPGUN NOT INCLUDED) AZWALKER I'm impressed with the things you say.
 
Ah, another smartazz with 2 posts and a disabled profile, LOL! Looks like you lovers are coming out of the closet, but not really, as you don't even have the nads to post your names! Oh, by the way, what position do you hold with the organization? Maybe a top secretary to DP, Chapter Topgain, or something along those lines?
 
hey toppers, just because you put a name and location up on your profile doesn't mean squat. your main man zimmer can confirm who he is, what he does for a living, and what his background is. if you google his name, you'll find there are a few different ken zimney's out there. which one is he. i hope he's not the public servant getting paid by tax dollars at the police acadamy. Shane Rhoton, Dentist, Alaska. Good luck. You start calling people out, well tell your boys to face up.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-05-12 AT 10:42AM (MST)[p]"Most everybody here has some very good points (TOPGUN NOT INCLUDED) AZWALKER I'm impressed with the things you say."

Oh god just what we need another disabled profile SFWer. Although I am glad they had the forsight to classify me with those having some very good points. Thank you.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
>hey toppers, just because you
>put a name and location
>up on your profile doesn't
>mean squat. your main
>man zimmer can confirm who
>he is, what he does
>for a living, and what
>his background is. if you
>google his name, you'll find
>there are a few different
>ken zimney's out there.
>which one is he.
>i hope he's not the
>public servant getting paid by
>tax dollars at the police
>acadamy. Shane Rhoton, Dentist, Alaska.
> Good luck. You
>start calling people out, well
>tell your boys to face
>up.

Shane, Quit telling everyone about my job. If you continue to do so, I'm going to send my latest graduate to silence you. You are breaching all our national security. This is a very serious matter.
6020gungirl7.jpg


***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
LAST EDITED ON May-05-12 AT 06:31PM (MST)[p]I have a dry sense of humor and enjoy entertainment, but I can assure you I am not joking when I say I cannot divulge details of my employment, and I have no choice in that matter. So please quit asking. You are wasting your time, and I have had my real name on my MM profile since day one, like 1999 or something. So it's not like I am hiding my employment for some personal reason. Deal with it, or I'll have to send officer Wang Chung after you. She's bad enough as it is, but last I heard has an abscessed molar, and is in one nasty mood!

I'll not comment on the link you posted, but I do think it's really creepy anyone would search people's names online. Maybe that is why you don't post your's? You think everyone else is as creepy as you are and would be doing personal searches.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
like i said before, it's a simple question. are you the ken zimney in the link or not? simple, YES or NO. come on zimmer, you can kill a four bearded turkey but can't answer a yes or no question?

you make character assassinations about mm.com members for not putting their name up on their profile, but can't answer simple questions about yourself. must be smoke and mirrors for you. your real name, lol, means nothing. there are several ken zimney's out there. just like shane rhoton's. which one am i? the dentist in alaska. google it. if your job is so important and secretive that you can't divulge what you do, i would hope that you would have half the brain to figure out that just putting a name behind a profile doesn't mean squat. shane rhoton.
 
I asked my boss and he said I could only answer your turkey related questions. So fire away but don't ask what property I shot the tom.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
Hey numbnuts! If you're really a Dentist in the Army, WHO do you think is paying your way, LOL? What a loser!!!
 
This has gotten past the point of stupid. You guys are better thab this. You all sound like a bunch of 14 old girls. I know you are but what am I? Why would you lower yourselves to this level? You're embarrasing yourselves.

Donnie

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
just got out of doing my time in the army numbnuts. you aren't paying my way now. forget it. i never posted on the www. during work hours on the public's dollar. it was not allowed. what do you have to say about that toppers?
 
azwalker,

i agree with you, except, in order to reason with toppers and zimmers you have to bring yourself down to their level. everyone else on this thread is levelheaded and i will be with them.

however, one point of importance. for all those that are seriously looking into this HB and taking in all the information to make informed decisions about wildlife out west. i am not saying to be for or against it. i am talking about all the well thought out solutions to the threats sportsmen in the west are and will face. ken zimney has gone about this attacking ideas, people, characters, etc. he does so by discrediting each individual that says something contrary to his way of thinking. he makes claims like they are involved with outfitters benefiting from the "tag grab", they are paid employees of SFW, they are the rich and benefit from the tag grab, on and on and on. IMO it is pertinent information to look at not only the comments, but the individual behind those comments so one can more appropriately asses the entire picture. well zim has caused that several people put real names to their user name, but more importantly, employment background, personal background, and other pertinent information. Mr. zimney is unwilling to "come out of the closet" like others have so his true motives are unknown. what is most repulsive about him is that he is, from the "google" research that i can do on him based off his name and state, based out of illinois and slandering peoples names and characters while at work on the publics dollar. that there is repulsive and waste, fraud, and abuse of gov. money. all he needs to do is answer one question that he is unwilling to answer at this time to discredit that statement.

ken zimney, is this you? YES or NO

http://www.pti.uiuc.edu/staff/ken_zimny.html
 
BTK, it is easy for some to sit and make judgements on the internet as to who people are and their motivations. I do not agree nor have I ever agreed with HB2072. But, there is a huge gap in the funding needed to fight antis and the funding currently available. Something needs to be done. If sportsmen as whole don't want to step up and fund the fight, someone will. There are enough people out there with enough money to fight the antis and if we don't step up, they will. We might have to just accept what they do. In a perfect world, we woould have enough funding to fight all the battles we're faced with but we simply don't. That's reality. So until sportsmen step up, they will get what they get and throw fits when its too late.

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
LAST EDITED ON May-06-12 AT 08:24PM (MST)[p]Azwalker, It has little to do with battling antis, and a lot to do with outfitter entitlements and personal profit.

Let me ask you a question. Who specifically would benefit from more money being spent on "fighting antis"?

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
top,

i am no longer in the army, got out 6 months ago. i did not talk like this about anybody while getting paid by the tax payers dollars. i did not talk like this about anyone but you and zimmers until you made several personal attacks on me and my brother. i did not and will not talk like this about anyone else on these public chat forums. you two individuals started out as two year olds and have remained dragging people down to your levels with your irrational statements and radical beliefs towards western wildlife management.

ken zimney is all smoke and mirrors. why can't he give us a little background about himself like many others have so their is some weight behind his radical belief? simple question he needs to answer, ken is this you? yes or no

http://www.pti.uiuc.edu/staff/ken_zimny.html
 
LAST EDITED ON May-07-12 AT 08:12AM (MST)[p]Zim,

I am not going to make assumtions and hypothetical statements about HB2072 or its backers. I have not spoken with any of the writers of that bill or those backing that bill. Fact is, nobody knows what would have truly happened with the money generated by those tags, its dead and a guess at this point. My problem with that bill was that private entities would have total control of the funding with little oversight. Have you spoken to Alan Hamberlin? Have you spoken to Suzanne Gilstrap? Have you spoken to any of the big names who pushed this bill? I doubt it very highly. So how can you assume to know their intentions?

The problem is that people make big assumtions about other peoples intentions. Then it turns into a big movement with guys like yourself beating a war drum and everyone firing up and ranting to each other about all kinds of nonsense. The truth lies somewhere down in the middle of this dogpile but unfortunately its so smashed and convoluted, theres no point in even speaking about it now. People have made their judgments, its done. Do you want to know the truth or do you want some drama to deliver you from off season boredom?

I myself was nearly enveloped by all the hoopla. Fortunately I was able to speak to a few leaders in the conservation circles that shed some light on things for me. I've heard both sides and I was able to form my opinion based on fact and truth as I saw it.

To answer your question, there were alot of people that would have benefitted from that bill. You cannot claim for a bill to have big economic impact and not have people benefit from it, this is a capitolistic society, someone will always find a way to benefit. Alan Hamberlin can buy any auction tag and/or any hunt he wants at any time, I do not believe he was doing this to get more tags for himself. Everyone talks about the 350 tags set aside in that bill but everyone fails to mention that very few were auction tags, the vast majority were raffle tags. I do not have an issue with auction tags. If sportsmen don't want to step up as a whole and fund the fight against the antis, fine.... auction some tags off.

If that bill had been handled differently and the right PR work had been done, it could have/would have had alot more support. That is a fact. Something still needs to be done to either raise the funds or get sportsmen to step the heck up. I was on a quiet crusade to get more sportsmen fired up and use the fire from the HB to do it but just as some told me, everyone went back to sleep. Sportsmen as a whole seem to care only about their next tag. The vast majority of sportsmen are consumers, not conservationists. We will lose our legacy if somethings isn't done.



"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
Let me add this:

Everyone (including me BTW) has issue with SFW but they pushed for and got a $50.00 bounty on coyotes in Utah. That flies directly in the face of the anti's and is literally a fight against them. Predators are one of our biggest issue in AZ and the one problem facing our deer herds we can actually do something about. If SFW came in and fought for the same deal down here, I would absolutely back them on it. Do I agree with everything SFW does and has done... nope! Not by a long shot. But there are some good things happening and being done as a direct result of their activity in Utah. In a perfect world, I would like to see all the existing orgs in Arizona unite and start doing big things here. We don't need to have an SFW/AZSFW to do it. We just need to unite and get more sportsmen involved. The key though is the sportsmen and I don't see them getting involved any time soon.

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
>zim,
>
>kind of like your job.
>has little to do with
>actually working and more to
>do with sapping the tax
>payers of their hard earned
>money so you can sit
>on the internet slandering peoples
>names while getting paid by
>their money.

btk, You have absolutely no clue where I work. NONE whatsoever. You are outright guessing. You are embarassing yourself with outright lies. You should be ashamed of your childish behavior and family's association with personal profit from tag grab privitization of a public resource from Joe Hunter.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
Azwalker,

OK, lets try this again. I asked a one sentence question in the hopes of getting one direct answer. Instead I got 5 paragraphs. I am asking for a short list, with people's names, special interest groups, etc. Any groups at all. Just be specific............Who specifically would benefit from more money being spent on "fighting antis"?


With regards to your 5 paragraphs unrelated to my question:

You yourself mention "nobody knows
>what would have truly happened
>with the money generated by
>those tags" and "My problem with that bill
>was that private entities would
>have total control of the
>funding with little oversight."

ABSOLUTELY! I have nebver met these clowns Hamberlin & Gilstrap but I absolutely don't need to! Because anyone who would pull the kind of unprecedented "emergency" measure with no accountability of public funds completely destroys their own credibility. They deserve absolutely no respect. None. Done deal.

> So how can you assume to
>know their intentions?

I don't care what the intentions are of people that would do what they attempted to do. They need to be disposed of.


>The problem is that people make
>big assumtions about other peoples
>intentions.

SFW has a 15 year track record. We all know their "intentions"! WTF!?????


>The truth lies somewhere down
>in the middle of this
>dogpile.

I totally disagree. There is no "compromising" when it comes to the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation.

>Fortunately I
>was able to speak to
>a few leaders in the
>conservation circles that shed some
>light on things for me.

Why can't these "leaders in the conservation circles" come out in public and explain the secret "light" you were granted? We are all out here waiting and wanting to hear these secrets. To date, we have heard none. If all the money needs to go to lobbying, then say it. If it needs to go to "consultant fees" say it. Whatever. Just something. This veil of secrecy leads to rightful mistrust, and always will. Transparency is common in all public expenditures.




To answer your question, there were
>alot of people that would
>have benefitted from that bill.
>You cannot claim for a
>bill to have big economic
>impact and not have people
>benefit from it, this is
>a capitolistic society, someone will
>always find a way to
>benefit. Alan Hamberlin can buy
>any auction tag and/or any
>hunt he wants at any
>time, I do not believe
>he was doing this to
>get more tags for himself.
>Everyone talks about the 350
>tags set aside in that
>bill but everyone fails to
>mention that very few were
>auction tags, the vast majority
>were raffle tags. I do
>not have an issue with
>auction tags. If sportsmen don't
>want to step up as
>a whole and fund the
>fight against the antis, fine....
>auction some tags off.
>
>If that bill had been handled
>differently and the right PR
>work had been done, it
>could have/would have had alot
>more support. That is a
>fact. Something still needs to
>be done to either raise
>the funds or get sportsmen
>to step the heck up.
>I was on a quiet
>crusade to get more sportsmen
>fired up and use the
>fire from the HB to
>do it but just as
>some told me, everyone went
>back to sleep. Sportsmen as
>a whole seem to care
>only about their next tag.
>The vast majority of sportsmen
>are consumers, not conservationists. We
>will lose our legacy if
>somethings isn't done.


Looking for a short direct answer. A list.

Thanks.



***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
"OK, lets try this again. I asked a one sentence question in the hopes of getting one direct answer. Instead I got 5 paragraphs. I am asking for a short list, with people's names, special interest groups, etc. Any groups at all. Just be specific............Who specifically would benefit from more money being spent on "fighting antis"?"

Why do you want a list from me? I have no idea who would benefit in your hypothetical world. I can, like you, make all the assumtion I want but it doesn't make it true. The FACT is that HB2072 is dead. I don't know specifically what happens in Utah nor do I really care.

"ABSOLUTELY! I have nebver met these clowns Hamberlin & Gilstrap but I absolutely don't need to! Because anyone who would pull the kind of unprecedented "emergency" measure with no accountability of public funds completely destroys their own credibility. They deserve absolutely no respect. None. Done deal."

This is the exact reason you will amount to nothing more than a guy from back east ranting on a website. Statements like that get NOTHING done and accomplish nothing. Broad sweeping statements make for good arugment fodder on MM but do nothing to further true conservation efforts. If you knew half of what you thought you did about Hamberlin or Gilstrap, you might be dangerous. Try this old, long forgotten method of reason... try and find the good in people and what they do, it makes the mistakes they make more tolerable. Alan Hamberlin has done more for Arizona wildlife than you could ever dream of doing and only because he has bought auction tags. Hundreds of thousands of dollars for deer tags! He could have spent $9,000.00 and got as good a deer in Mexico. Sorry, that wasn't all about him.

"Why can't these "leaders in the conservation circles" come out in public and explain the secret "light" you were granted? We are all out here waiting and wanting to hear these secrets. To date, we have heard none. If all the money needs to go to lobbying, then say it. If it needs to go to "consultant fees" say it. Whatever. Just something. This veil of secrecy leads to rightful mistrust, and always will. Transparency is common in all public expenditures."

Why in Gods name would any self respecting org leader come here and explain himself to the likes of you. So he can be bashed? So he can be called names? Oh yes, your prior statements exude diplomacy! You have proven that you have no intention of being reasonable, you want a fight. You are happy to sit and call names instead of looking at things from a diplomatic point of veiw. If I led an org, I wouldn't spend 2 seconds engaging in an argument with you... NEVER!

"Transparency is common in all public expenditures."

Are you claiming this as a hope or fact? If you think that is fact you are truly misled.

I'm not goiing to sit here and argue with you Zim. I'm not going to get caught up in the same trap others have. You want to start with the name calling, take the fight somewhere else. If you want a healthy debate, I might be interested. But if you continue to call names, even if its other people, I'm out. I have no time for the childish banter.


"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
Terry,

I try and step back and take a deep breath before I post anything. My other rule is to not saying thing I wouldn't say to somebodys face. I wouldn't be affraid to repeat anything I've said in person.

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
LAST EDITED ON May-07-12 AT 07:08PM (MST)[p]This one is the best.

"Looking for a short direct answer. A list"

So you are telling me how I need to answer your question? Isn't that special. I wish I could get everyone in my life to answer me the way I want to be answered. That would be awesome!

Not sure what you are used to Zim but I answer questions the way I want to. I have gathered that those that have not found it within themselves to move on in a positive way, really just want something to get all emotional about. As emotion enters, logic exits.

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
zimmers,

you should be embarrassed for not being able to answer questions that my 1.5 yr. old routinely answers, yes or no? playing the front that your job is so secretive and important and that your safety and security are at risk by disclosing such information is a joke and pathetic to say the least. anyone who buys that is inept. people that hold those very few jobs don't sit around on the www. chat forums bitching and moaning like a drunken fool. but then again, you never know. you like to put pictures up of little asian women dressed in provocative outfits, if that's not weird...

simple yes or no will work. are you the same ken zimney who appears at this link in the profile?

http://www.pti.uiuc.edu/staff/ken_zimny.html
 
LAST EDITED ON May-08-12 AT 00:35AM (MST)[p]Donnie,

You didn't answer any of my questions. None. You simply danced around like Don Peay does at a sportsmen's roundtable. The questions were very simple and clear. You make them complicated, and reply to all of them with questions! Exactly like Don Peay. Then you personally insult me for where I live? Really? Have I personally insulted you? Have I called you a name? All you did was make excuses and claim I am not worthy of hearing the answers. What up?

If nothing else, it would be very enlightening for all of us to hear the secret reasons the "leaders in the conservation circles" gave you for their tag grab strategy. You claim we don't know the whole picture because we didn't speak with the powers that be. And your answer is that I am not worthy of hearing the answer? Really?

"Why in Gods name would any self respecting org leader come here and explain himself to the likes of you?"

Well one pretty good reason would be so people like me don't contact local television stations like KTVK and arrange interviews with their bill sponsors (Jim Weiers), make them look like fools, and run their lobbyists out of the AZ statehouse the next day with her tail between her legs. Go ahead and insult me. I can most definitely make a difference regardless of where I reside. I don't want to have to bring these issues to the media. Perhaps if I were enlightened to the secret reason you were granted by the important players, I would understand. I want a reason to support the tag grab. Then I wouldn't have to take the time to call media. I consider myself a sportsman and want to do the right thing. I think that is an extremely good reason for a "self respecting org leader" to explain himself and the secret positives of the tag grab model that apparently only you are worthy of them explaining to.

The only definite answer I did pick up from your all your replies was that you believe lack of transparency of public funds is acceptable. It didn't answer any question I posed, but at least you admitted your personal stance. I'll give you credit for that.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
LAST EDITED ON May-08-12 AT 00:40AM (MST)[p]btk, You have absolutely no clue where I work. NONE whatsoever. You are outright guessing. You are embarassing yourself with outright lies. You should be ashamed of your childish behavior and family's association with personal profit from tag grab privitization of a public resource from Joe Hunter.

For you to claim I work for the government is complete conjecture. If it is so, please prove it. Like I proved who you are, hiding behind that fake profile.

Since you are so sure that is me on the link you posted, why don't you pick up the phone and call him or his supervisor to complain? Instead of complaining here?

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
Zim, you asked me one question and I gave you my answer. You want answer to a hypothetical question about something that didn't happen that may or may not happen in future. Ok Yoda, here's your answer, I have no list for you of those who may have or may not have benefited from a bill that didn't pass but if it had and the intentions of those that wrote the bill had been honorable and it truly was about fighting anti's you want me to list those that would benefit from that bill... Blah blah blah. I have no idea and I'm more than willing to admit that.

Don't get your undies in a wad because I made one little comment about you being from back east. I promise you'll live. But since its been mentioned... How much do you know about the history of some of the orgs in Arizona? There's a rich history and some of the very names bashed in threads like this were at the forefront of many great organizations.

I will shed some light on things for you, hopefully you can keep up.

Here's the deal. The same people have been fighting for everyone else for a very long time. Sportsmen in Arizona, as a whole, are apathetic. Because the majority don't let their voices be heard, those that do decide to step up and speak usually get what they want. Now, the things they want usually line up with what the majority would probably want so nobody ever says much. But now because of the economy a funding gap has come up. Money is required to fight the antis, that is a fact. Now, some people got together and wrote a bad bill and went about getting it passed in an ill advised back handed way. Sportsmen got wind of it and some people threw a fit. But... More importantly and the number one reason the bill didn't pass was the fact that two very important groups with a ton of clout were against it, The Cattlemans association and the NRA. They were the real force behind that bill not passing, not 500 emails and no not your claim to fame and the one thing you love to brag up... A news segment. Although, it was good to see sportsmen step up and I congratulate the sportsmen of Arizona for stopping a horrible bill. And of course you Zim for setting up Alans interview. As a matter of fact, why don't you call channel 3 and tell them I made fun of you for being from back east, I'm sure I'll have s media trucks outside my door tomorrow!

You say "we" like you have 100 guys standing behind you Ken but the truth is most everyone has moved on. They got bored with the fight or have decided to do something fruitful.

Just so its clear, I did not support HB2072. Your almost artistic in your attempt to make me look bad by compairing me to Don Peay. Just because I can debate circles around you doesn't make me evil Ken.

You are evidently a passionate guy, go do something worth while and that actually matters. This is stupid retoric. This seems to be beyond you. Go take some kids turkey hunting, go fishing join a nitting circle for all I care. Better yet, donate 200k to our HPC fund and we'll give you a deer tag, you'd be a better man than me. I wouldn't pay 200k for a flippin deer tag even if I did have it, I don't love conserving mule deer enough to do that.

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
Here is the bottom line.

HB2072 happened because sportsmen are apathetic. If we were stepping up and doing what needs to be done financially, there would be no excuse or reason for a tab grab.

Zim, we can go round and round buddy and I'm not interested in that.

Heres an honest answer to your question and this the best I can do:

If there was a bill written that took tags and accounted for every dime generated by those tags and was gauranteed to go directly to funding conservation projects and funding the fight for sportsmens rights then every person in the state of Arizona would benefit from it. But we're back to the hypothetical Ken. There was no such bill. HB2072 gave money to a private entity and would be used for expos. Taking a renewable public rescource and selling it off for private gain simply isnt right. The people that wrote and backed that bill made a mistake, plain and simple. But... if you knew more than what you read on chat forums you might understand that those same people have done more than most for wildlife in AZ. We do need a source of funding to fight the anti's and as of yet, sportsmen have NOT stepped up. Until they do, bills like this will come up now and then, thats a fact.

I really do appriciate your efforts Ken. That interview sealed the deal. But don't be so quick to demonize otherwise good people. We are just people Ken, trying to do whats right for the wildlife we love.



"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
Azwalker,

I agree a lot of sportsmen are apathetic, although I am not one of them.

>HB2072 happened because sportsmen are apathetic.
>If we were stepping up
>and doing what needs to
>be done financially, there would
>be no excuse or reason
>for a tab grab.

There are MANY ways to raise funds if they are so desparately needed. There is absolutely no question this new world tag grab philosophy is one ugly way to raise funds, even if ALL the money was used to benefit wildlife. SFW, who mastered the model, developed it to appeal to the power of the outfitter lobby. There is no denying that either. Their steering from auction to raffle is also a ploy to appeal to those who are not wealthy. Whatever it takes to get the tags away from those who have invested for 20 years.

If the guiding light of these tag grabs is to fight anti's, that would in fact benefit ALL sportsmen. Thus, ALL sportsmen should contribute equally, rather than the very small group that has invested to be in the top draw pools for these premium tags. The model bends these people over the barrel far more than any others. That is besides the fact auctions are in fact the worse violation of the NAMWC.

I would very much like to stop contacting legislators and calling news media. It is in SFW's interest to have a liason explain to me directly all the details of why I should support these tag grabs. Anyone is free to PM me if the secrets are so confidential. I am not stupid. I understand politics. It's just in 15 years nobody from SFW has made any attempt to contact me. Until they do, I am going to follow my common sense and continue to do whatever I can to stop them taking over game boards, buying legislators, and avoiding media.


>If there was a bill written
>that took tags and accounted
>for every dime generated by
>those tags and was gauranteed
>to go directly to funding
>conservation projects and funding the
>fight for sportsmens rights then
>every person in the state
>of Arizona would benefit from
>it.

I disagree per my argument above. Any such bill would crucify those that have invested and supported AZG&F the longest.


.
>But... if you knew more
>than what you read on
>chat forums you might understand
>that those same people have
>done more than most for
>wildlife in AZ.

As I stated above, I welcome anyone to PM me if there is anything I don't know. And I know the positive track record of all these people, including Jim Weiers.

>We do
>need a source of funding
>to fight the anti's and
>as of yet, sportsmen have
>NOT stepped up. Until they
>do, bills like this will
>come up now and then,
>thats a fact.

Perhaps the Sportsmen's Constituent Group will form a plan. Because if they don't, AZSFW will surely be back in the next legislative session.


***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
LAST EDITED ON May-08-12 AT 07:45AM (MST)[p]AZWALKER---Good post Sir! I think we are all in this with the same goal in sight. It's just that to get to that goal some want to go up the middle, some want to go around the end, and then several decided to go under the table and not involve the masses at all, which resulted in this big fiasco in fighting that Bill. It's amazing that all I have basicallly said time after time is that the SFW group has done a lot of good for wildlife from what I'm reading and hearing here and on several other websites and I just want transparency and a level playing field for all. It's too bad I get caught up in stuff and can't just stay calm like you, Hawkeye, Randy, and others. I'll guarantee you this and that's that it won't happen again. It's really a shame when certain people have to resort to what several of these first time posters have done with their unsernames to make fun of a person who has truly been involved with the outdoors for 6 decades trying to make things better and have that kind of senseless assault. If a person can't even put their name on a profile and has to hide behind a keyboard as Popgun and Topgain, it's pretty sad and they haven't made one positive comment on this thread. I hope if they post any more it's with some positive ideas instead of the initial garbage they typed. PS: I'm outa here for 7-8 days to head north to the cabin and help more people learn the fun of turkey hunting. Have a good day!
 
LAST EDITED ON May-08-12 AT 09:01AM (MST)[p]Zim, there aren't as many ways as you think to raise the kind of money that auction tags bring. As a matter of fact, except for sportsmen stepping up on a massive, unprecidented scale, I don't think theres any other way to raise those kind of funds. The current auction and raffle tags we have in Arizona are vital to conservation here. I'm not sure why you think that auction and raffle tags only take away from top bonus point holders, they take away from everyone that applies for tags, if you see it that way.

I have a little different theory on the whole game. If the sportsmen don't fight with their wallets, then they don't have a whole lot to complain about when things like auction tags come up. Its like the Coconino road closures I'm sure you guys read about here. Nobody gave a rats a$$ 3 years ago when this topic was being raised by a few of the org guys. It got a little attention but evidently not enough to stop the road closures.

Now... OH GOD.... the sky is falling because guys can't drive out into the forest to get their elk. Well!!!!! You big dummies, the AES has been talking and fighting it for 3 freakin years or more and nobody gave a rip then!

Thats my issue Ken and... sportsmen are now recieving the wages of apathy.

Guys like you aren't enough. I can tell by speaking to you Ken that you aren't an apathetic guy. I'm sure you put your money where your mouth is but do you realize how rare guys like you and TOP are? Especially in relation to the number of sportsmen out there. Somewhere along the line sportsmen were sold on a lie. Someone told them that hunting equals conservation. That is simply not the truth. Hunting is consumtion. I can promise you there aren't enough animals in Arizona to require us to hunt in order to control the populations except for maybe 1 or 2 species in certain areas.

Heres my challenge to you Ken. By all means, fight for what you belive in. BUT!!!!! Try a different approach. Put your energy into getting more sportsmen involved. If you truly want to counteract what these tag grabs are doing we need sportsmen to step the "f" up. We NEED to eliminate the excuse that money is needed to fight the anti's. If we don't want auction tags, we need to step up in a big way to generate the money those tags do. Now, keep up your fight against SFW if thats how you feel you're being effective. I personally don't think thats the best approach. I think a positive approach with getting the masses involved is the best way to fight the tag grab.

I can promise you, at some point, someone will approach AZGFD with a plan for more auction tags that would give the dept just enough money for them to sign on to it and... they will cave. And... we will have a bunch more auction tags. Unless, sportsmen remove the excuse and fund the fight themselves.

Oh and honestly, I'm going out on a limb by saying this and I might get bashed... but... the sportsmens constituent group will end up being a meeting place for all the same people that are leading the orgs now. They may pull a few new guys in like me but not on the scale they are hoping for. Sportsmen are just apathetic, plain and simple. Unless someone can rise up and pull them together, that fact will not change.

Donnie


"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
LAST EDITED ON May-08-12 AT 09:14AM (MST)[p]Good luck TOP. Thanks for the kind words.

Oh and you will notice that the Popgun and Topgain posts got nuked. Funny.

Donnie

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
"I can promise you, at some point, someone will approach AZGFD with a plan for more auction tags that would give the dept just enough money for them to sign on to it and... they will cave. And... we will have a bunch more auction tags. Unless, sportsmen remove the excuse and fund the fight themselves."

I have no doubt that is innevitable too. That is also why the "SFW model" includes weaseling in toadies onto the game commissions. To expedite the matter. The premium tags are valuable and are a sitting duck target in every state, by not only SFW, but MDF and the individual states themselves. That kind of money will attract shady politics and usually abuse of funds.

No doubt a bill will resurface with lowered sights, just to get any foot int he door. Once that happens, AZSFW will be back every year wanting more and more. Same as the Utah model.

With regards to approach, I'd like to see these tag grab groups specify where exactly these funds are needed to fight antis, instead of taking money from a public resource with no transparency as part of their agenda. I'll just never buy that without explanation.


***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
Well Zim, it seems you have found the best way for you to be effective. That's great and I wish you the best of luck.

If what you are saying is true about SFW and tag grabbers, I wouldn't expect a whole lot of answers to your questions. If they have a hidden agenda, they won't want to be found out.

I will toss this at you and take it for what its worth. Not everyone that agrees with auction tags is evil man. Some honestly see the benefit. This isn't religion or politics... This is conservation. There are good people who like auction tags and especially ones like Arizonas that go into an HPC. I know you hate SFW and I understand why but the fact remains that they probably aren't going anywhere anytime soon. You can stay the course and fight everything they do tooth and nail but you need to ask yourself what you are truly accomplishing. Is it about hunters or wildlife? Wildlife needs three things... Food cover and water. Is your battle against the SFW and tag grabbers doing anything to benefit wildlife? That's why we're all here right? This isn't all about who has the tags and the money is it?

Donnie

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
Greatest line of all time in this whole SFW/AZSFW bull$hit......

"Along the way, someone told them hunting = conservation".

Maybe we all ought to try to reverse that statement

How about "conservation = hunting"?

Instead of fighting, why don't all of us PRINT some new ways to try to raise the cash in this forum?? Where are the freaking ideas, boys??

Ideas?? Think outside the box!!

Here is something for you all to digest. Ducks Unlimited is not selling any tags at auction.......but they have seemed to triple the ducks & geese the last 20 years.

Maybe we should all listen to their approach. You never hear those guys arguing??

I truely hope we all want the same goal....if there are agendas somewhere, we are then just urinating in the wind.

Bounce some ideas out there......what is there to lose??
 

Member Gallery Photos and Videos!

40.jpg
IMG_0427.JPG
5A6DA7EB-9B3C-456E-8F3E-F462C91B34F8.jpeg
VideoCapture_20211114-072838.jpg
Sqiggely Book Cliffs Buck.jpg
8 bachelors.jpg
98760681-F676-412B-B45A-9F6AB7C86B94.png
image3.JPG
9B7A7990-7B64-4A39-BE8D-111AC8639E4D.jpeg
college 165 copy.jpg
2022 Deer 3.png
84C9BCDA-FEC5-4C53-B2CE-90C39F01814B.jpeg

Arizona Hunting Guides & Outfitters

SilverGrand Outfitters

Offering mule deer, elk, antelope, bighorn sheep, javelina, and turkey hunts in Nevada and Arizona.

Arizona Elk Outfitters

Offering the serious hunter a chance to hunt trophy animals in the great Southwest.

A3 Trophy Hunts

An Arizona Outfitter specializing in the harvest of World Class big game of all species.

Arizona Strip Guides

Highly experienced and highly dedicated team of hardworking professional Arizona Strip mule deer guides.

Urge 2 Hunt

THE premier hunts in Arizona for trophy elk, mule deer, couse deer and javelina.

Shadow Valley Outfitters

AZ Strip and Kaibab mule deer, big bulls during the rut, spot-n-stalk pronghorn and coues deer hunts.

Back
Top Bottom