ID_Elkmagnet
Active Member
- Messages
- 369
>Pay to play on less than
>%1 of the tags.
What % go to landowners?
Justin
>%1 of the tags.
What % go to landowners?
Justin
SFWs motives
- Thread starter Oneye
- Start date
Tristate
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,890
Smellybuck,
I have no issue with you wanting a different management goal for the state mule deer herd. I am not saying I want that, but if you wish they would manage it so that there are tons of doe and no buck lives past 30 months, OK. I am not arguing that.
I have no issue with you wanting a different management goal for the state mule deer herd. I am not saying I want that, but if you wish they would manage it so that there are tons of doe and no buck lives past 30 months, OK. I am not arguing that.
Tristate, there will always be bucks that make it through. See I used to be fooled by this old mentality that they were helping the deer herd by cutting tags, but its a trophy agenda that has gone to far. In the last decade Utah saw cuts from around 100,000 tags to 84,000 tags, and almost 99% of that is contributed to SFW's push. Now buck to doe ratios and deer numbers are up by about 50-60,000 and buck to doe ratos sit at 20+:100 on general units that we are managing for 15-17:100. But that still doesn't please SFW, this year despite good buck numbers and deer numbers they still are proposing another handful of units be pushed to 20-25 bucks per 100 does because the units are showing they can have that many bucks. It's ridiculous, in the beginning you can support them when buck:doe ratios are sitting at 10 or less per 100 does to help buck numbers, but now we are sitting at double that and they're still vouching for no increase in tags or less tags to even further boost numbers while giving no more opportunity. More opportunity should come with more bucks and better deer populations. One group should not be able to force their agenda down all our throats and keep opportunity at a minimum just so we can kill bigger bucks.
Here's my take, I like the opportunity to be out there and hunt with friends and family. I also enjoy trophy quality bucks and don't want to see none. I'm not okay with shooting a two point at this stage and quite honestly don't even care if I fill my tag if I don't see a buck I want. I'm not someone who is against trophy quality but I am someone against keeping public tags at bay when things are going good and more tags are warranted. I could have killed many bucks last year, and chose not to. I saw more bucks this winter than I've seen in a decade, tags should be going up this year, SFW should not be pushing to keep them the same or cut them and raise buck:doe objectives in order to do so. Like I said if someone wants to buy the tags at the expos or banquets, I really like to see it, but I don't like seeing a private party given all these tags and being aloud to keep proceeds off our public resources. You used to could buy a tag over the counter, now odds are headed to 3 years before being guaranteed a tag, thats not progress.
I am very upset on their stance on the land grab, it would be devastating to our landscape here in Utah as well as our wildlife, especially with what Utah put in their report for the future of the land. I'm not for the privatization and economic value of our wildlife. Anyone can shoot a big buck behind a no trespassing sign and for me there is no joy in that. You might as well raise a cow and shoot it in your field or ranch if you call that hunting.
Here's my take, I like the opportunity to be out there and hunt with friends and family. I also enjoy trophy quality bucks and don't want to see none. I'm not okay with shooting a two point at this stage and quite honestly don't even care if I fill my tag if I don't see a buck I want. I'm not someone who is against trophy quality but I am someone against keeping public tags at bay when things are going good and more tags are warranted. I could have killed many bucks last year, and chose not to. I saw more bucks this winter than I've seen in a decade, tags should be going up this year, SFW should not be pushing to keep them the same or cut them and raise buck:doe objectives in order to do so. Like I said if someone wants to buy the tags at the expos or banquets, I really like to see it, but I don't like seeing a private party given all these tags and being aloud to keep proceeds off our public resources. You used to could buy a tag over the counter, now odds are headed to 3 years before being guaranteed a tag, thats not progress.
I am very upset on their stance on the land grab, it would be devastating to our landscape here in Utah as well as our wildlife, especially with what Utah put in their report for the future of the land. I'm not for the privatization and economic value of our wildlife. Anyone can shoot a big buck behind a no trespassing sign and for me there is no joy in that. You might as well raise a cow and shoot it in your field or ranch if you call that hunting.
Tristate
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,890
I notice now you are talking about regulating "opportunity". This is a separate argument altogether and frankly somethingthat is also standing like a road block for good management.
Managing for opportunity has failed for the past 40 years and will fail even worse in the future. No state agency has been able to calculate failure amongst the most inventive species upon this planet. Therefore the harvest percentages always get higher year after year if all variables remain the same.
Opportunity is a failed practice. It is time the state looks at every single tag as a dead animal.
Managing for opportunity has failed for the past 40 years and will fail even worse in the future. No state agency has been able to calculate failure amongst the most inventive species upon this planet. Therefore the harvest percentages always get higher year after year if all variables remain the same.
Opportunity is a failed practice. It is time the state looks at every single tag as a dead animal.
ID_Elkmagnet
Active Member
- Messages
- 369
landowner tags end up in the hands of the wealthy most of the time
If you have more draw units that are controlled hunt Premium type units you end up with more land owner tags which equals more tag for people to buy in a pay to play scenario
sfw supporters are large landowners who profit off of these tags and people who can afford to pay big $ for these tags.
If you support SFW and you're not in one of these two groups you're merely a sheep
Justin
If you have more draw units that are controlled hunt Premium type units you end up with more land owner tags which equals more tag for people to buy in a pay to play scenario
sfw supporters are large landowners who profit off of these tags and people who can afford to pay big $ for these tags.
If you support SFW and you're not in one of these two groups you're merely a sheep
Justin
Tristate
Long Time Member
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ID_elk,
Is that a scientific study about who buys the tags. I know several people that bought cwmu tags last year and several were not wealthy.
Do you understand how supply and demand works? Do you understand that if more and more of the tags were sold on the open market then the price starts coming down?
What exactly do you consider "big $" for a tag?
Oneye,
I like your scientific idea that each year a few older bucks would survive. Back before the state of Texas actually started managing for a better age structure in the deer herd literally not one single buck deer was living past the age of 18 months in some counties. We would age deer brought into the meat lockers and literally not one single deer out of thousands would be older than 18 months. You can't grasp the concept of how lethal humans can become.
Is that a scientific study about who buys the tags. I know several people that bought cwmu tags last year and several were not wealthy.
Do you understand how supply and demand works? Do you understand that if more and more of the tags were sold on the open market then the price starts coming down?
What exactly do you consider "big $" for a tag?
Oneye,
I like your scientific idea that each year a few older bucks would survive. Back before the state of Texas actually started managing for a better age structure in the deer herd literally not one single buck deer was living past the age of 18 months in some counties. We would age deer brought into the meat lockers and literally not one single deer out of thousands would be older than 18 months. You can't grasp the concept of how lethal humans can become.
ID_Elkmagnet
Active Member
- Messages
- 369
It's common sense.
There will never enough premium tags to meet demand that's just asinine.
Of and if the price is enough to exclude the average casual hunter it's to high for me.
Justin
There will never enough premium tags to meet demand that's just asinine.
Of and if the price is enough to exclude the average casual hunter it's to high for me.
Justin
Tristate
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,890
id-elk,
There is absolutely nothing in your last post that makes sense.
The demand for premium tags is met now. It will be met next year if they slash them in half. You don't even understand what demand is. Are you calling "demand", everybody gets one for free??????
How much money does the average casual hunter make? What is the average income of a US citizen. Should they be considered when you talk about who can afford a deer tag.
Everybody on here considers themselves average. Are you really as average as you think?
There is absolutely nothing in your last post that makes sense.
The demand for premium tags is met now. It will be met next year if they slash them in half. You don't even understand what demand is. Are you calling "demand", everybody gets one for free??????
How much money does the average casual hunter make? What is the average income of a US citizen. Should they be considered when you talk about who can afford a deer tag.
Everybody on here considers themselves average. Are you really as average as you think?
ID_Elkmagnet
Active Member
- Messages
- 369
>id-elk,
>
>There is absolutely nothing in your
>last post that makes sense.
>
s
>The demand for premium tags is
>met now. It will
>be met next year if
>they slash them in half.
> You don't even understand
>what demand is. Are
>you calling "demand", everybody gets
>one for free?????
So everyone in Utah that wants and applies for a premium tag this year will receive one? That is supply meeting demand in the context that matters here.
>How much money does the average
>casual hunter make? What
>is the average income of
>a US citizen. Should
>they be considered when you
>talk about who can afford
>a deer tag.
>
>Everybody on here considers themselves average.
> Are you really as
>average as you think?
Oh I'm sure they do...
I don't think I'm average I can get my hands on $ tags and can afford one occasionally but that would be as good as supporting the pay to hunt greed. So I have never done it.
Seriously you are being childish in your arguments.
Justin
>
>There is absolutely nothing in your
>last post that makes sense.
>
s
>The demand for premium tags is
>met now. It will
>be met next year if
>they slash them in half.
> You don't even understand
>what demand is. Are
>you calling "demand", everybody gets
>one for free?????
So everyone in Utah that wants and applies for a premium tag this year will receive one? That is supply meeting demand in the context that matters here.
>How much money does the average
>casual hunter make? What
>is the average income of
>a US citizen. Should
>they be considered when you
>talk about who can afford
>a deer tag.
>
>Everybody on here considers themselves average.
> Are you really as
>average as you think?
Oh I'm sure they do...
I don't think I'm average I can get my hands on $ tags and can afford one occasionally but that would be as good as supporting the pay to hunt greed. So I have never done it.
Seriously you are being childish in your arguments.
Justin
ID_Elkmagnet
Active Member
- Messages
- 369
In a situation where the supplied(tags) cannot be increased no matter how high the cost is driven by the demanded(hunters) cost can increase at an exponential rate.This is why general supply and demand economics have no place in deciding how a public trust is divied out.
keep doing what you do tristate. You are. Helping people see the light
Justin
keep doing what you do tristate. You are. Helping people see the light
Justin
See Tristate you have no clue about Utah, IT IS NOT TEXAS. Let me give you some personal experience. I watch deer and elk year round. On a general unit with the lowesyd buck:doe ratio in the state for years,, I watched 10-12 bucks that would come back to their winter range every single year. There are sets off these deer to prove they lived to be 6,7,8 years old, so YES there will always be survivors. I am still watchingb a buck this year on that same unit that I have watched for 9 years and there are 9 sets off of him. That buck is at least 12 years old and lives on one of the most easily accessible and hardest tagged general units in the state, so don't try to misinform me that it's hard for a buck to live past 18 months.
What supply and demand topic are you talking about. This isn't complicated supply is the tags that are available and demand is the amount of people who want those tags. Supply isn't meeting demand, now you're really starting to look like a fool. It never will meet demand unless price is driven so high 95% of those applying can't afford the tag.
Tristate
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,890
I AM TALKING ABOUT THE AUCTION TAGS. That is where the rules of supply and demand actually work. On draw tags you can't apply the rules of supply and demand because the state is setting a price at a fabricated low price.
Like I said before YOU DON"T KNOW HOW SUPPLY AND DEMAND WORKS.
Like I said before YOU DON"T KNOW HOW SUPPLY AND DEMAND WORKS.
Muley_73
Very Active Member
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- 2,788
Oneeye,
I find it interesting that on the unit you talk about the majority of hunters in your area would like to see less pressure on that unit. They are honestly one of the most outspoken and active group in Utah regarding the management of that unit. Seems like the demand is not for more tags on this unit but for more deer and better quality???
I find it interesting that on the unit you talk about the majority of hunters in your area would like to see less pressure on that unit. They are honestly one of the most outspoken and active group in Utah regarding the management of that unit. Seems like the demand is not for more tags on this unit but for more deer and better quality???
wileywapati
Very Active Member
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- 1,808
It's kind of irrelevant, wether it's a bowhunter
Or rifle hunter that kills the last deer or elk at
This point.
Fact Peay said the NAMWC is socialist and needs
To be rethought.
Fact Peay did not defend Utah's fisherman and instead
Sided with HB 141 proponents.
Fact $FW Dixie signed on with developer Ken Ivory and
The American Lands Council to take over our public lands.
Fact $FW specifically Bair, Peay and Abbott ended AR-301.
Think this hunt may help with the point creep we see today?
Fact PETA the HSUS or any other animal rights group has not
Reduced Utah's hunters period. Anecdotal BS philosophy and
Support by $FW has taken thousands of hunters out of the field.
Keep arguing about if 20 or 25 bucks to 100 does provides enough targets
While these thrives steal your tags and over 30 million acres of our land.
Carry on.
"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
Or rifle hunter that kills the last deer or elk at
This point.
Fact Peay said the NAMWC is socialist and needs
To be rethought.
Fact Peay did not defend Utah's fisherman and instead
Sided with HB 141 proponents.
Fact $FW Dixie signed on with developer Ken Ivory and
The American Lands Council to take over our public lands.
Fact $FW specifically Bair, Peay and Abbott ended AR-301.
Think this hunt may help with the point creep we see today?
Fact PETA the HSUS or any other animal rights group has not
Reduced Utah's hunters period. Anecdotal BS philosophy and
Support by $FW has taken thousands of hunters out of the field.
Keep arguing about if 20 or 25 bucks to 100 does provides enough targets
While these thrives steal your tags and over 30 million acres of our land.
Carry on.
"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
Muley_73
Very Active Member
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wiley,
Come on man, I'm disappointed. You left of taking away statewide archery. Isn't that what really brought you screaming out of the shadows and has kept you up at night since?
AR301, I will agree on that. I would have liked to see it stay. I would like to see some archery only units for deer, I believe you are spot on that it would help relieve point creep. I am not a huge fan of the Stream Access shutdown. But you take the good with the bad and you fight with for the group that gives you the best chance of winning he war. Even if a few battles are lost.
Come on man, I'm disappointed. You left of taking away statewide archery. Isn't that what really brought you screaming out of the shadows and has kept you up at night since?
AR301, I will agree on that. I would have liked to see it stay. I would like to see some archery only units for deer, I believe you are spot on that it would help relieve point creep. I am not a huge fan of the Stream Access shutdown. But you take the good with the bad and you fight with for the group that gives you the best chance of winning he war. Even if a few battles are lost.
Hawkeye
Long Time Member
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- 3,012
Muley73 said: " I am not a huge fan of the Stream Access shutdown."
Come on Cody. I know that you and your boys love to fish. How do you justify SFW taking a "neutral position" on the stream access issue and then Don's comments about "greedy flyfishermen" in an effort to justify the legislation. SFW should have stood up for sportsmen on that issue but instead they were pandering to wealthy landowners.
I am willing to admit when SFW does something positive but you should be willing to call them out when they clearly take the wrong position on an issue. Especially an important issue like public stream access for sportsmen.
-Hawkeye-
Come on Cody. I know that you and your boys love to fish. How do you justify SFW taking a "neutral position" on the stream access issue and then Don's comments about "greedy flyfishermen" in an effort to justify the legislation. SFW should have stood up for sportsmen on that issue but instead they were pandering to wealthy landowners.
I am willing to admit when SFW does something positive but you should be willing to call them out when they clearly take the wrong position on an issue. Especially an important issue like public stream access for sportsmen.
-Hawkeye-
Muley_73
Very Active Member
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- 2,788
Hawkeye,
Was I not clear with my comment?? "I am NOT a huge fan of the Stream Access shutdown". It swayed my vote for governor the following year. I also had personal conversations about not supporting this before and after with Don himself. Did it go my way, Nope it didn't. But I don't know have many times I will have to say it. Overall they do more and are the best option and voice for the sportsmen. I just don't throw a public fit on the interweb and let my occasional disagreement on some issues control my drive for the big picture. Other obviously can not.
Was I not clear with my comment?? "I am NOT a huge fan of the Stream Access shutdown". It swayed my vote for governor the following year. I also had personal conversations about not supporting this before and after with Don himself. Did it go my way, Nope it didn't. But I don't know have many times I will have to say it. Overall they do more and are the best option and voice for the sportsmen. I just don't throw a public fit on the interweb and let my occasional disagreement on some issues control my drive for the big picture. Other obviously can not.
Hawkeye
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,012
For an avid fisherman to say that "I am not a huge fan of the stream access issue" is like saying that Benjamin Netanyahu is not a huge fan of Iran's nuclear program. It seems like you are soft peddling a bit. How about simply admitting that SFW picked the wrong side on that important issue to the detriment of the average sportsmen?
-Hawkeye-
-Hawkeye-
Muley_73
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,788
Hawkeye,
You are cracking me up. I said I disagreed with this. To the leadership and to anyone that ever asked me. I am sorry that it bothers you that I don't do so with an angry interweb rant, or editorial in the Salt Lake Tribune. I disagreed with it then and I disagree with it now. I still go fish with by boys and we have never skipped a beat over this. That's my point. We moved foward and stayed loyal because of the big picture. I don't expect you or your posse to understand that, you all have been caught up an any issue big or tiny from the time you started this fight. My understanding goes back 30 years and vision goes foward another 30. That simply is not the case with most of the posters on the site or others that oppose the SFW.
I can honestly make a list of improvements and good things the SFW has done. A list that even your biggest supporters (SFW Haters) would agree with. I can also make a list of things I have disagreed with or not supported that SFW has done or not done. You and your group well I can not make a list of either variety for you folks. You have brought nothing to table other than accusations, assumptions and whinning. I have no need for any of those things, they help me accomplish nothing in the big picture of the future of our hunting heritage and wildlife conservation. So I battle and make my stands.
You are cracking me up. I said I disagreed with this. To the leadership and to anyone that ever asked me. I am sorry that it bothers you that I don't do so with an angry interweb rant, or editorial in the Salt Lake Tribune. I disagreed with it then and I disagree with it now. I still go fish with by boys and we have never skipped a beat over this. That's my point. We moved foward and stayed loyal because of the big picture. I don't expect you or your posse to understand that, you all have been caught up an any issue big or tiny from the time you started this fight. My understanding goes back 30 years and vision goes foward another 30. That simply is not the case with most of the posters on the site or others that oppose the SFW.
I can honestly make a list of improvements and good things the SFW has done. A list that even your biggest supporters (SFW Haters) would agree with. I can also make a list of things I have disagreed with or not supported that SFW has done or not done. You and your group well I can not make a list of either variety for you folks. You have brought nothing to table other than accusations, assumptions and whinning. I have no need for any of those things, they help me accomplish nothing in the big picture of the future of our hunting heritage and wildlife conservation. So I battle and make my stands.
wileywapati
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,808
Thanks for reminding me.
Actually I came screaming out of the shadows about 1995
at an RMEF banquet when a group of guys huddled up and auctioned
a handful of tags.
Any one of the facts above should be a deal breaker, especially
with the lack of historical evidence to back up these changes.
I'm not talking about adding a few sheep or goats that nobody will
ever get the chance to hunt, Im talking about telling 10 to 20 thousand
hunters to stay home from the FAMILY deer woods. Im speaking about
taking money from Sportsmen and then firing them under the bus time after
damn time. AR-301 and Statewide are just a couple of examples along with
the lack of support for anglers.
$FW has proven over the past few years they care a little bit about planting a few pheasants and netting a few deer. Mostly they care about political cronyism
political backscratching and making $$$$$$$. They'll tell you the money is to
benefit us all and then support proposals that take tens of thousands of hunters
out of the field, or take millions of acres of public lands out of public hands.
Cody I can see dancing with who brung ya, but damn brother, eventually ya gotta realize your date to the dance is just another sleazy hooker looking to get paid.
What exactly is it going to take to open your eyes??
"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
Actually I came screaming out of the shadows about 1995
at an RMEF banquet when a group of guys huddled up and auctioned
a handful of tags.
Any one of the facts above should be a deal breaker, especially
with the lack of historical evidence to back up these changes.
I'm not talking about adding a few sheep or goats that nobody will
ever get the chance to hunt, Im talking about telling 10 to 20 thousand
hunters to stay home from the FAMILY deer woods. Im speaking about
taking money from Sportsmen and then firing them under the bus time after
damn time. AR-301 and Statewide are just a couple of examples along with
the lack of support for anglers.
$FW has proven over the past few years they care a little bit about planting a few pheasants and netting a few deer. Mostly they care about political cronyism
political backscratching and making $$$$$$$. They'll tell you the money is to
benefit us all and then support proposals that take tens of thousands of hunters
out of the field, or take millions of acres of public lands out of public hands.
Cody I can see dancing with who brung ya, but damn brother, eventually ya gotta realize your date to the dance is just another sleazy hooker looking to get paid.
What exactly is it going to take to open your eyes??
"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
wileywapati
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,808
I wonder if Basin Hookers are more result oriented than
Those in the People's Republic of Southern Utah??
BOBCAT??
"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
Those in the People's Republic of Southern Utah??
BOBCAT??
"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
Here tristate: http://utahwildlife.net/forum/12-big-game/114154-more-deer-tags-expected-released-2.html
Go over there, create a user account and argue with lonetree about your points. He is a big part of the site that I linked you to earlier. He will explain to you how absolutely stupid you are. He can put it in much deeper scientific terms than I can. I've researched what I can on the website I've found, but he has carried out his own research and has put more time into this than me. Read through a few of the posts on the thread I gave in the link above explaining how pesticide exposure to wildlife is the root cause of our declines. He also explains that we are seeing growing deer numbers partly because of weather and the affects of the economic downturn we had during the recession that slowed the use of herbicides because agencies couldn't afford the programs to use them. Right now we have seen population growth because of that and now that our economy has turned around we are using them more than ever and sitting on a ledge ready to go off. He will explain to you why a big crash is coming. He'll also explain how these things follow perfect patterns with herbicide use in all species and the malformations we see. Good luck, you can barley hold an argument here I can't imagine how dumb he'll make you look.
Go over there, create a user account and argue with lonetree about your points. He is a big part of the site that I linked you to earlier. He will explain to you how absolutely stupid you are. He can put it in much deeper scientific terms than I can. I've researched what I can on the website I've found, but he has carried out his own research and has put more time into this than me. Read through a few of the posts on the thread I gave in the link above explaining how pesticide exposure to wildlife is the root cause of our declines. He also explains that we are seeing growing deer numbers partly because of weather and the affects of the economic downturn we had during the recession that slowed the use of herbicides because agencies couldn't afford the programs to use them. Right now we have seen population growth because of that and now that our economy has turned around we are using them more than ever and sitting on a ledge ready to go off. He will explain to you why a big crash is coming. He'll also explain how these things follow perfect patterns with herbicide use in all species and the malformations we see. Good luck, you can barley hold an argument here I can't imagine how dumb he'll make you look.
elkfromabove
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,122
>Here tristate: http://utahwildlife.net/forum/12-big-game/114154-more-deer-tags-expected-released-2.html
>
>Go over there, create a user
>account and argue with lonetree
>about your points. He is
>a big part of the
>site that I linked you
>to earlier. He will explain
>to you how absolutely stupid
>you are. He can put
>it in much deeper scientific
>terms than I can. I've
>researched what I can on
>the website I've found, but
>he has carried out his
>own research and has put
>more time into this than
>me. Read through a few
>of the posts on the
>thread I gave in the
>link above explaining how pesticide
>exposure to wildlife is the
>root cause of our declines.
>He also explains that we
>are seeing growing deer numbers
>partly because of weather and
>the affects of the economic
>downturn we had during the
>recession that slowed the use
>of herbicides because agencies couldn't
>afford the programs to use
>them. Right now we have
>seen population growth because of
>that and now that our
>economy has turned around we
>are using them more than
>ever and sitting on a
>ledge ready to go off.
>He will explain to you
>why a big crash is
>coming. He'll also explain how
>these things follow perfect patterns
>with herbicide use in all
>species and the malformations we
>see. Good luck, you can
>barley hold an argument here
>I can't imagine how dumb
>he'll make you look.
Lonetree and Tristate into a "debate"? Now, wouldn't that be something to see! But I'm guessing it would never happen 'cause neither ego could allow it and neither could the rules of this forum. And there can't be more than one wildlife "expert" getting credit. Besides, Lonetree's solution is biological and Tristate's solution is economical.
>
>Go over there, create a user
>account and argue with lonetree
>about your points. He is
>a big part of the
>site that I linked you
>to earlier. He will explain
>to you how absolutely stupid
>you are. He can put
>it in much deeper scientific
>terms than I can. I've
>researched what I can on
>the website I've found, but
>he has carried out his
>own research and has put
>more time into this than
>me. Read through a few
>of the posts on the
>thread I gave in the
>link above explaining how pesticide
>exposure to wildlife is the
>root cause of our declines.
>He also explains that we
>are seeing growing deer numbers
>partly because of weather and
>the affects of the economic
>downturn we had during the
>recession that slowed the use
>of herbicides because agencies couldn't
>afford the programs to use
>them. Right now we have
>seen population growth because of
>that and now that our
>economy has turned around we
>are using them more than
>ever and sitting on a
>ledge ready to go off.
>He will explain to you
>why a big crash is
>coming. He'll also explain how
>these things follow perfect patterns
>with herbicide use in all
>species and the malformations we
>see. Good luck, you can
>barley hold an argument here
>I can't imagine how dumb
>he'll make you look.
Lonetree and Tristate into a "debate"? Now, wouldn't that be something to see! But I'm guessing it would never happen 'cause neither ego could allow it and neither could the rules of this forum. And there can't be more than one wildlife "expert" getting credit. Besides, Lonetree's solution is biological and Tristate's solution is economical.
Tristate
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,890
Oneye,
You are a brainwashed idiot hack. GMO's, and pesticides. WHat next? Solar flares are probably sterilizing the doe, right????? Let me guess if we give money to your cause, AND WE ALL STARVE TO DEATH, you get to manage deer the way YOU want.
Hey if its the pesticides killing off deer why do they do so good around farms but not so good in pristine wildernesses where there ain't PESTICIDES????
Tell you what slick, Give me exactly one pesticide that should be banned so you can manage wildlife the way you want.
You are a brainwashed idiot hack. GMO's, and pesticides. WHat next? Solar flares are probably sterilizing the doe, right????? Let me guess if we give money to your cause, AND WE ALL STARVE TO DEATH, you get to manage deer the way YOU want.
Hey if its the pesticides killing off deer why do they do so good around farms but not so good in pristine wildernesses where there ain't PESTICIDES????
Tell you what slick, Give me exactly one pesticide that should be banned so you can manage wildlife the way you want.
2lumpy
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,030
LAST EDITED ON Mar-21-15 AT 07:27PM (MST)[p]People have made up correlation's between natural geo-physical events and man made activities since the bring of human interaction. Some times the correlations are real, valuable information, that benefit humans. Such as, wasting your hands with hot water and soap helps prevent the spread of disease.
On the other hand sometimes people are motivated by fear or a desire to control others, they search for correlations that justify or support their ambitions. Such as, a thousand years ago the Central American Native priests/leaders knew (astrologically) the sun cycled north then south every 52 years, it moves south for 52 than moves back north for 52. (It's done this since the beginning of the earth I suppose.) The leaders told their citizens that the sun would keep moving south or north and be gone for ever if they didn't agree to sacrifice thousands of people to the Sun Gods. So, every 52 years the priest/leaders cut the hearts out of their best and most talented citizens, and low an behold, the sun started moving the other direction, just like they predicted. To a lesser degree, they did the same thing every spring and fall equinox.
Some of our neighbors are afraid the chemicals we use, for thousand of things, are harmful to humans and to animal populations. They are focused like a laser on the subject, out of genuine fear and anxiety or they are using our concerns like Rahn Emanuel, who says: ""You never let a serious crisis go to waste. And what I mean by that it's an opportunity to do things you think you could not do before."
So some are concerned over pesticides out of genuine fear and some are using pesticides to manipulate. Either way, it is very easy to find correlations to prove your point, be it the economy, moose dying, deer jaws growing deformed, two headed frogs, or what have you.
Just because they put a freeway through Sevier County in 1997, does not mean it is causing the Monarch Butterfly population to decline world wide, but they did put the freeway through and the Monarch population is decline, so there you go.
DC
On the other hand sometimes people are motivated by fear or a desire to control others, they search for correlations that justify or support their ambitions. Such as, a thousand years ago the Central American Native priests/leaders knew (astrologically) the sun cycled north then south every 52 years, it moves south for 52 than moves back north for 52. (It's done this since the beginning of the earth I suppose.) The leaders told their citizens that the sun would keep moving south or north and be gone for ever if they didn't agree to sacrifice thousands of people to the Sun Gods. So, every 52 years the priest/leaders cut the hearts out of their best and most talented citizens, and low an behold, the sun started moving the other direction, just like they predicted. To a lesser degree, they did the same thing every spring and fall equinox.
Some of our neighbors are afraid the chemicals we use, for thousand of things, are harmful to humans and to animal populations. They are focused like a laser on the subject, out of genuine fear and anxiety or they are using our concerns like Rahn Emanuel, who says: ""You never let a serious crisis go to waste. And what I mean by that it's an opportunity to do things you think you could not do before."
So some are concerned over pesticides out of genuine fear and some are using pesticides to manipulate. Either way, it is very easy to find correlations to prove your point, be it the economy, moose dying, deer jaws growing deformed, two headed frogs, or what have you.
Just because they put a freeway through Sevier County in 1997, does not mean it is causing the Monarch Butterfly population to decline world wide, but they did put the freeway through and the Monarch population is decline, so there you go.
DC
ridgetops
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,758
I don't see the comments of the
Southern Utah Dixie chapter of SFW as speaking for the org. as a whole but rather taking a stand against what has been happening with the BLM and ranchers down there in the last few years.
I may or may not agree with how that whole thing went down but good for them for standing up for their beliefs, even if there's no chance of the land take over ever happening.
Also, it seems like every time I look at a new map, there are new areas closed down as "wilderness study areas".
That is getting old.
I also see where the BLM and private land owners do land swaps all the time but most of the public doesn't even know it has been happening for years now.
There's always next year
Southern Utah Dixie chapter of SFW as speaking for the org. as a whole but rather taking a stand against what has been happening with the BLM and ranchers down there in the last few years.
I may or may not agree with how that whole thing went down but good for them for standing up for their beliefs, even if there's no chance of the land take over ever happening.
Also, it seems like every time I look at a new map, there are new areas closed down as "wilderness study areas".
That is getting old.
I also see where the BLM and private land owners do land swaps all the time but most of the public doesn't even know it has been happening for years now.
There's always next year
E
elkun
Guest
RE: SFWs motivesok
is wrong in going along with the state. but if you look and see what the state has done for sfw its plain to see the good old boy bullsizze you help me ill help you Sfw has done some great things.sadly those days have came and went!!
is wrong in going along with the state. but if you look and see what the state has done for sfw its plain to see the good old boy bullsizze you help me ill help you Sfw has done some great things.sadly those days have came and went!!
desertpointbrian
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,347
SFW is doing an outstanding job representing sportsman in the state of Utah. just look how good they did at the wildlife board meeting for us. the cattleman handed it to us and another elk heard bites the dust. they can speak all they want but the results are increased tags in areas that are now going to be thin for elk. kudos sfw my money well spent
oneye,
10 percent of the tags in a given unit can be auctioned for conservation permits. So the unit must have 10 tags for that particular hunt to auction 1. I don't believe to 200 permits for the big show is part of that number. There are some years where a biologist changes the number of tags for a given species or hunt after they have committed to sell a permit but I've never seen the 25-50% you quote. The same goes for out of state hunters. We here on the cache have not had a cache moose permit for sale for the last few years because the total number of permits available is less than 10.
I disagree with most of your thread. I believe SFW has done tons of good for the average hunter. There are people that can have great hunts. Look back 20 years ago. There are way more mtn goat, big horn sheep, and elk in our state now than there was then. With the ever increasing population in our state and the loss of critical winter range we need groups like SFW, Mule Deer foundation to help.
Deer are not easy to manage in Utah. The bottom line with deer is that we will never have good deer populations because the division uses a flawed formula to count deer. Until we have simple things put in place like mandatory reporting before purchasing a license we will never really know what shape the deer herd is in. We have tried to get mandatory reporting passed with the division but they have rejected it because of lame excuses and they wouldn't be able to fake the numbers so they can issue more permits that drives revenues.
My suggestion to you is to get involved with your local biologist and offer to help instead of rant about groups that really are doing a lot of good.
As for the Federal Lands Initiative the State should definitely have control. There is no bigger waster of resources than the federal government. We don't need them to manage lands in our state. I feel much more comfortable with our leaders here in Utah than I do for the Obama Administration. Where do you think your voice can be heard louder here in Utah or in Washington?
10 percent of the tags in a given unit can be auctioned for conservation permits. So the unit must have 10 tags for that particular hunt to auction 1. I don't believe to 200 permits for the big show is part of that number. There are some years where a biologist changes the number of tags for a given species or hunt after they have committed to sell a permit but I've never seen the 25-50% you quote. The same goes for out of state hunters. We here on the cache have not had a cache moose permit for sale for the last few years because the total number of permits available is less than 10.
I disagree with most of your thread. I believe SFW has done tons of good for the average hunter. There are people that can have great hunts. Look back 20 years ago. There are way more mtn goat, big horn sheep, and elk in our state now than there was then. With the ever increasing population in our state and the loss of critical winter range we need groups like SFW, Mule Deer foundation to help.
Deer are not easy to manage in Utah. The bottom line with deer is that we will never have good deer populations because the division uses a flawed formula to count deer. Until we have simple things put in place like mandatory reporting before purchasing a license we will never really know what shape the deer herd is in. We have tried to get mandatory reporting passed with the division but they have rejected it because of lame excuses and they wouldn't be able to fake the numbers so they can issue more permits that drives revenues.
My suggestion to you is to get involved with your local biologist and offer to help instead of rant about groups that really are doing a lot of good.
As for the Federal Lands Initiative the State should definitely have control. There is no bigger waster of resources than the federal government. We don't need them to manage lands in our state. I feel much more comfortable with our leaders here in Utah than I do for the Obama Administration. Where do you think your voice can be heard louder here in Utah or in Washington?
