Sheep numbers way down

[boatanchor]

In 2012 I drew a Rocky Mountain Bighorn Sheep tag in Utah's Rattlesnake Unit (since been re-named to book cliff south). It was the most fun hunt I have ever been on, I spent every weekend for six months scouting the area with my nephew and several friends.

In that time I was able to find at least 60 to 70 mature Rams, ewe's,lamb's and adolescent rams well past the hundred mark.

Last week I returned to the area to help a friend that had a Range Creek tag, for those not familiar. the Range Creek is basically the west side of the Green River corridor and the Rattlesnake (Book Cliff south)is the east side. I was shocked and saddened by what I saw. Numbers of sheep are way down on the Range Creek unit. hard to put a number on it but I would guess it to be less than half of what it was three years ago. The really sad thing is I never saw a living creature let alone a sheep on the east side of the Green River corridor, there may or may not still be some sheep further east in the unit but in the heart of the unit it is sheep genocide.

In my opinion the Utah DNR needs to shut down the unit entirely until the herd can be re-established and cut the number of tags in the Range Creek unit by 75% until the unit rebounds.

 

[Trammer]

I saw the same thing. To me it seems to be a lion crash on Range Creek. Lots of lion tracks, small groups of sheep where there used to be large groups of sheep. I have been told that the rattlesnake sheep came in contact with domestics so is suffering from disease. If true, rattlesnake and the reservation could be in big trouble for a long time.

Also, I would think that it cant be ruled out, that if disease has stricken rattlesnake it may have found its way across the green river as wild sheep are known to swim the river and or cross the frozen river in winter.

I know I am fearful and pessimistic about sheep numbers in many units including Zion. Zion is Lion crashing to be sure. Future surveys will confirm this.

None of this is very surprising to me with a DWR that chooses to study problems rather than react or respond to them, as well as a passive UFNAWS. I remember doing fencing projects 20 years ago in east rattlesnake to prevent wild sheep from coming in contact with domestics. So as domestics and wild sheep moved east in the Book Cliffs no new fencing was done. and I suspect that the interface with domestics that caused the crash was handled just like the one in the San Rafael. Not by swift action to kill the infected sheep before they contact other sheep.

Both disease events I suspect were dealt with by "lets study the problem and let nature run its coarse" Something is terribly wrong with an organization that quickly responds, with multiple armed officers (who are licensed to kill you) to calls of hunters with out their orange vests but fails to respond to calls of Lions eating wild sheep.

 

[bonepiler]

I am disappointed that I can never get back the two minutes I wasted reading this thread.

 

[BIGHORNtracks]

Hey Trammer, you know I always value your opinion.
So, I got a question for you.

Its a long the lines of this thread, sort of.

I saw that they are opening two new units in 2016.

Not really. They are reopening the pilot mountain sheep hunt. Not a new unit.
They just shut it down for a year.
I thought it was odd to shut it down for one year, then reopen it.

But whatever. They must have a reason.

Anyways, there is a new unit, the Avintaquin unit.
Way up high, east of strawberry res.

But in looking at the November 2014 helicopter survey, they only counted a herd of 51 sheep total.
Only 12 of which were rams. Obviously not all 12 are going to be mature rams.

So, with the potential for two or three mature rams, I would assume that they will only have one tag for the new unit.
Unless they have several transplanted rams that are about to die of old age.

With such a low population, and having them spread over at least 4 canyons during November, whats your opinion on the DWR opening this unit in 2016?

Should we be hunting the unit with so few sheep, or does total sheep give way to number of mature rams in the unit, regardless of the overall population?

As usual, I appreciate your thoughts, regardless of what that last guy is on about.

 

[treedagain]

Bighorn
the pilot herd is on a every other year deal with Nevada. this is our year for the 1 tag

From what I know about the new hunt (Avintaquin unit) is the oldest ram will be 6 1/2 so I echo your thoughts on why it will be open if that is true.

 

[Trammer]

I do think Avintaquin should be open. Any unit with 10 rams should have a permit and because the unit was started 4 or 5 years ago, presumably with 4 or 5 year old rams; there should be a couple of 8 or 9 year olds. I think units with fewer than 10 rams (like the North San Juan) should be combined with another unit like Lockhart or South San Juan until 10 rams exist.Similarly Wilson Mesa should have always been included in the South San Juan. After holding 10 rams it should become its own unit. For the most part I think all sheep should be in a hunting unit by including them in the total count of an adjacent unit and basing the tags issued on the greater total. What harm could result from South San Juan hunters being allowed to hunt the North San Juan?

 

[ramsniper]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-30-15 AT 11:53PM (MST)[p]I was in the Zion, the North San Rafael, Rattlesnake, and the Range Creek units this year. All four were disappointing compared to years past. Zion has a lion problem, an overhunting problem, and is still reeling from a perfect storm of hunters last year. The North San Raf is just plain discouraging....9 days of hard hunting/scouting and only two rams over 140". The Range Creek is half what it used to be, and the Rattlesnake (right next door to the Range Creek) is flat scary.

I expect the bidding on the auction tags for our premier units at the FNAWS banquet will be a bit down from normal this year....


On the positive side, the Lockhart, the Potash, and the South San Raf seem to be doing well. Saw good numbers in all of them this year.



Horns>antlers

 

[treedagain]

I was told by the biologist in price the oldest ram they put in was 1 1/2 so be would have been 2 1/2 the 1st breeding season for the unit. Thats what i was told..

 

[ColoradoOak]

http://www.ecprogress.com/index.php?tier=1&article_id=18235

 

[Trophy_Taker]

Ramsniper, will you explain what you are referring to regarding the Zion reeling from a perfect storm of hunters this last year?

It's concerning how little is done to curb lion problems when they are knowingly causing sheep populations to crash in Utah units.

 

[WhiskeyDog]

Just something to ponder: I see a lot of the sheep guys complaining of lions and that something needs to be done in the sheep units. Yet most of these same guys are bringing the problem on themselves.

Few years back there were a lot more draw units for lion and some of the few harvest objective units were those sheep units. Lions were actually hunted an killed in the sheep areas because that was the only option when a limited entry tag couldn't be drawn.
Then the war on lions statewide took off. Hunters called in, showed up at racs, rallied their sportsmans group and made the big push for most of the state to be changed to harvest objective on lions, with quotas being set so high as to rarely be filled. It sounds great to those that want lions everywhere gone, "we'll just wipe out the entire state and problem solved".
What that idea sounds like and what has happened aren't the same. With almost every mountain range in Utah opened up to an over the counter tag, there's no incentive for houndsmen to hunt the sheep units. They have the option to hunt areas often closer to home, with more access, easier hunting and overall better success. You guys know sheep country is tough country, that's one of the big deals about sheep hunting and being in "sheep shape". There's no sense in most houndsmen even considering hunting in a sheep unit with all the other options.
If you really want to see more pressure put on the lions that are in the sheep, take a step back and see what's really happening. We need to put more of the cougar units back on a draw system, lower the quotas to numbers where they are actually ever met to close a unit, and give hounds guys a reason to target cats in the harder to hunt sheep country. Otherwise you may as well sit back and watch more of the last few years take place.

 

[Trammer]

Master Buffoon Bill Bates must have wrote that "we suspect sheep are on the higher plateaus and just cant be seen" sounds exactly like what the jackwagon said at the onset of the North San Rafael crash; "we think the sheep are actually there but have been pushed into remote country where we cant find them by ATV use" how incompetent does a person have to be for Utah DWR to fire them?

 

[deerslayer88]

Trammer the problem lies within them meriting employees.

?If men were angels, no government would be
necessary.? John Adams

 

[boatanchor]

> The Range Creek is
>half what it used to
>be, and the Rattlesnake (right
>next door to the Range
>Creek) is flat scary.
>
>I expect the bidding on the
>auction tags for our premier
>units at the FNAWS banquet
>will be a bit down
>from normal this year....
>
Well that did not happen, apparently the bidders did not get the memo. The Range Creek tag went for $77,500 and the Rattlesnake tag was the highest paid auction item of the night at $80,000.

I am sure both hunters will get a Ram next year but I am also sure they will be disappointed in what they expected from the units.

The one thing that was guaranteed was that Adam Bronson (the UFNAWS president) was the first to both of them trying to be the guide on both hunts.....seems like an ungodly conflict of interest.

 

[Trammer]

I did notice last night that all 4 Sheep Tags were purchased by an outfitter with the hunter on the phone. At least one by Adam Bronson. I know of other people who boycotted the Banquet because of Adams conflict of interest. In truth it is more than a conflict of interest:
Adams conduct is illegal and is known as Private Inurement or Private benefit. Adam does a variety of things that function as barriers for his competitors and include things like refusing to run advertisements for his competitors in the UFNAWS newsletter as well as refusing to publish photos of successful hunts by his competitors. It is remarkable how Adam has been able to triple his Sheep Hunt numbers for Bronson Outfitting as well as farm up a year round salary for himself as UFNAWS President...Oh, if he can just get those kind of results for the Sheep...

 

[treedagain]

I was a little disturbed when at the 1st of the auction the auctioner said that once he said sold..the item was sold...he was very clear on that....but when the ZION tag was sold one of the guys on the phone taking bids left the room and LOST the bid. apparently he threw a fit and the tag was resold at the end of the auction for 5,000 more. I heard Adam with my own ears argue with the auctioner about re-selling it. sounded very self serving to me. I would be very upset I won the 1st bid. it will be interesting to see if Adam guides that hunter who won the 2nd bid. I know about 20 people who heard the argument.

 

[Trammer]

bottom line is that when the high bidder on that permit refused the tag thinking he had bought a Rocky not a Desert the 2nd bidder should have been offered the permit at the same amount (57,000) or even at his own last bid of 56,000 the bottom line I think, is that the same hunter ended up bidding 62,500 in the second go around. So he got ripped off either 6,500 or 5,500 depending on how you look at it. Either way the guy got the steal of the night because those tags have always gone for 80,000 Legally, I think he should only have to pay 56 or 57 for it. After all SOLD is SOLD according to John Bair but apparently not according to Adam Bronson.

 

[isayNUNYA]

Which outfitter/competitor was left out Brad (trammer)? I saw every sheep outfitter in Utah represented in both the news letter and the slide show at the banquet. Who was left out?

 

[Trammer]

Can you copy us on the newsletter. I did not see one.

 

[boatanchor]

The tragedy is that if Adam Bronson was doing his job as UFNAWS President the subject of the die-offs would have been a topic of great concern at the banquet, and MAX dollar auction tags should not have been offered.

Adam Bronson knows of the die offs in these units (I saw him there), but he chose to act if nothing was wrong and get uninformed hunters to pay $157,500 for the two tags....plus the first opportunity to be their guide !!!!

 

[ramsniper]

Boatanchor and trammer are exactly correct. I chose to boycott the banquet because of the way ufnaws has spiraled into a corrupt machine designed to benefit a few at the expense of many. There are dozens and dozens of examples and incidences I know of personally. Some are quite serious--even illegal. Suffice it to say, I am no longer a member of this corrupt organization, and I encourage anyone interested in seeking truth to examine this so-called "foundation" carefully and decide for yourself if it meets your personal ethical requirements.






Horns>antlers

 

[ramsniper]

>The tragedy is that if Adam
>Bronson was doing his job
>as UFNAWS President the subject
>of the die-offs would have
>been a topic of great
>concern at the banquet, and
>MAX dollar auction tags should
>not have been offered.
>
>Adam Bronson knows of the die
>offs in these units (I
>saw him there), but he
>chose to act if nothing
>was wrong and get uninformed
>hunters to pay $157,500 for
>the two tags....plus the first
>opportunity to be their guide
>!!!!

This is another perfect example of how ufnaws has changed its goals from doing what's best for the sheep, to doing what's best for itself! The original reason fnaws was created was to put sheep on the mountain, not to put money in someone's wallet.

Horns>antlers

 

[BIGHORNtracks]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-15-15 AT 05:29PM (MST)[p]Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the entire idea corrupt?

I understand that high dollar auction tags are the reason that sheep reintroductions have been so successful, but why should they be sold at private banquets?

Why are the expo tags only available to people who attend the expo?

These are publicly owned tags.
Why do we allow the DWR to auction ANY public tags at banquets?

The same auctions could be held, by the DWR, without any outside influence, and the DWR would receive the entire sum, without having to surrender 10% to the private groups?

All the serious people would attend the DWR auction. And the conservation groups could still hold their "dinner party" with members on their own.

Including the conservation groups in the auction process seems to be the tool that opens the door to the corruption.
The DWR is getting less money out of the deal.
What are they getting in return for allowing the private groups to auction our tags?
Less money? That doesn't make sense.

If the DWR wants to raffle off tags, do it through the DWR website, stop making folks from southern utah drive all the way to salt lake just to get in the draw.
Thats total B.S.
If the DWR wants to auction off hunting permits to raise money that will be used to improve sheep populations, fine.
But there seems to be no real reason to do it at the mule deer foundation dinner party.

The separation of church and state ought to apply to separation of public property for sale at private business.

I know that opinion will upset the fans of the elk foundation and such, but if the north american wild sheep foundation needs the tags, or the raffle items, or the dinner party to get support from their members, they need better members who care about the animals, not "what can I get for being a member?"

In the modern world, the DWR ought to be able to handle our tags without ANY outside influence.
They need to stop offering our tags to private groups to handle.

Problem solved.
Adam can have his group, and he can have his guide service, and the public owned tags are not creating a conflict.
One auction, one auctioneer, playing by the rules set forth by the DWR, at the DWR.

Seems easy enough to me.

Or am I missing something?

I sure would love to be given several public owned tags to auction off at my personal business event. Plus get 10% of the revenue generated.
Where do I sign up for that?

 

[Trammer]

Bighorntracks, I agree with you. In one fell swoop the grassroots organization of UFNAWS was ground up, thrown away and replaced with the current corrupt model. The swoop being the the Conservation permit program...as a business owner I used to get hustled every year for donations and every year I would donate a rifle and buy a corporate table at the banquet. I quit being hustled in about 2001. Now, rather than being grass roots and a true Conservation organization UFNAWS self funds. It simply doesnt need the charitable contributions of its members...people who draw salarys now buy the rifles for the banquets and the only draw left for the organization is selling the publics assets; the sheep tags. UFNAWS makes sure that the DWR Director and Wildlife Board members go on lots of free sheep hunts and those people keep the sheep tags coming.I for one would like to see Lee Howard reinstated as UFNAWS President and send Adam Bronsons Statist arse back to Blanding to get a real job.

 

[ramsniper]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-15 AT 02:16PM (MST)[p]Bighorntracks, you hit the nail on the head.


After my boycott, I was going to throw all my UFNAWS hats, shirts, sweaters, etc. into a pile and have a backyard bonfire. But now I think I will take them to Inkspot and have the following addition printed near the emblem:

"Creating corruption and conflict of interest since 2014"



Horns>antlers

 

[Trammer]

Correct me if I am wrong but one of the problems with UFNAWS is the powers that be Namely Don Peay and Adam Bronson require Judges to tell them right from wrong. Didnt Don pull the trigger on the National FNAWS VS Grand Slam Club lawsuit and Didnt Adam Bronson get sued by Garth Carter of Huntin Fool for breach of contract? I have been told that both Adam and Don lost in court. Both seem to find it hard to do what is moral and ethical.