Spider Bull generates concern

some of you guys get it, but alot of you don't, for those that don't go re read message#85 over again, it has nothing to do with inches or idols, these events have a lot to do with the future of big game hunting, as citizens we are in the minority and I think we would do well to remember that
 
Back to the November, Hunting Illustrated article:

1) there are 794,602 elk hunters in the U.S (60,000 of whom are female);
2) they spend more than $954 million each year; and
3) the RMEF has improved 5.2 million acres of elk/wildlife habitat (alot with the help of millions of $ raised by selling governor's tags over the last 10 years from Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Montana, Arizona, California, New Mexico, Colorado, Kentucky, and Wyoming...sorry, Utah, you don't make the RMEF list).

I've attended every RMEF annual convention auction for the last 10 years and when a Governor's tag is sold for tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars, the crowds of elk hunters/guides/outfitters/vendors/enthusiasts, etc. in attendance do nothing but cheer, chant, clap and otherwise go absolutely ballistic. Sorry guys, but I've never see anyone yet at a RMEF convention auction upset and walking around wringing their hands because somebody other than them could afford to buy a governor's tag with special dates.

There are about 100 posts to this thread...I wonder how the other 794,592 elk hunters in the U.S. who have yet to weigh in feel about this subject. Are they the silent majority who say let it be and congrats to anyone (including one of the 20 or so Gov. tag hunters each year) who is financially able and gets lucky enough to kill a record elk? Maybe they've figured out like I have that buying a Gov. tag in the western U.S. does not guarantee success in getting a world record or top 10 or 20 bull. Other than this year in Utah, I don't know of any other Gov. tag hunter in the last 10 years who has come close to a world record elk.
 
There are about 400 non elk hunters for every elk hunter in the U.S according to that stat. the issue is a bull with a name and many photos of him alive and what the hundreds of million of non elk hunters think about how he was killed, Im glad all those people can buy the governer tags and all that,but do you understand the concerns of some people about how this kind of hunting is portrayed to the public?
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-12-08 AT 11:44PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Nov-12-08 AT 11:40?PM (MST)

krp, man I couldn't agree more. Very well said and put together.
 
So the saga continues....
It would be nice if a unbiased group could get to the bottom
of the "Spidey Bull"

Jeff
 
>So the saga continues....
>It would be nice if a
>unbiased group could get to
>the bottom
>of the "Spidey Bull"
>
>Jeff


And they will.
 
SouthSlope,

Listen to yourself dude! You've probably heard the saying "Where there's smoke there's probably fire" right? Well, I've heard of a number of outfitters (one on more than a single occasion) blocking roads, etc. so only their client would have access to a given area where a nice animal was located. That's BS! Am I being negative because I'm jealous? Hell no! I'd just as soon stay the hell away from an outfit that believes in that type of ethics! It doesn't take a trophy set of antlers for me to enjoy any hunting excursion I go on. But I do believe in equal opportunity for everyone that may have a tag for that area (as far as having access to anywhere in the unit).

So rethink what you're saying. Trust me, it's got nothing to do with jealousy! People are just getting sick of certain guiding operations acting like they own the mountaiin... and they're not being quiet about it anymore!

Another thing...
you wrote "but do you expect anything less for a bull that gross scores over 500 inches a world record , especially when the governors tag holder wants this bull." The score isn't the issue either. Replace your statement with "but do you expect anything less for a guy who paid $170K for the governor's tag, and really wants this bull." You can justify it by the bull's quality, etc. all you like. We both know it comes down to $$$$$!!!!!


KRP,

Amen to what you said! I agree whole heartedly!

EG

campfire2.gif
"A man can be hard to find in the mountains, but you're welcome at my fire anytime."
 
krp,

Your read was interesting. It is fun reading the two sides of this story. The guide supporters versus the non supporter. Seems we are at odds. Either the truth gets ugly or the rumors are painting a dillusional picture of trophy hunting elk in Utah?

If I had a Sportsman Tag in 08, Spidey would have been the last bull I would have hunted? I hate crowds and publicity. I also would not want to be any part of such a public outrage over one famous bull. I am glad the bull is dead and those with thicker skin than me can take the abuse that comes with it. Of couse, had a average guy killed him and not Austed, that guy would have been a hero to most.

In a previous thread people wondered what happened to Spidey. I predicted his days were numbered. How could anyone think otherwise? He was going to be found come hell or high water. He was and was quickly put to sleep.
 
That pic in that link is NOT the spider bull, it is the bull called "chicken foot" that was killed a few years back
 
I think as a group we are in trouble. I was at the vets office the other day having a mule checked out. While I was waiting I listened with interest as a lady arranged a surgical procedure for her cat. Cost three thousand dollars, she did not bat an eye. I asked him about his practice, he has been sewing up hounds and fixing mules for me for over twenty five years. He stated 80% of his buisness comes from peoples pets. They spend big money on them. He said that the rancher and farmer was no longer the main concern for him, the money is in the pets and the people that consider them family.

People buy health insurance for their pets now. Their is more outcry over animal abuse than child abuse.

They are the ones watching this controversy. I am uncomfortable with the whole issue, it bothers me. You can bet they are paying attention.

It is all about score. It is about killing not hunting. Everyone from rich to poor wants that high scoring trophy.
Spent the deer hunt this year hunting marginal deer habitat on the back of a mule. Had a good friend with along with me. Mom and Dad made it out a few days, they are both in their 70's and still enjoy the deer hunt. I had an outstanding time. Thats what it's about for me.

It is different for everyone. If the trophy hunt is for you go for it. If it is the trip go for it. Divided we fall. They are watching, they pay attention. When you whack animals that have names, there are people that believe they have rights.

Does not matter what side you are on we are going to lose if we don't change the game.
Mulehound.
 
Eyeguard
I myself have not heard of any other outfitter doing these type of sickening things. If there is one or more whatever if it is going on it is dead wrong and should be stopped cause your right there is nothing there about ethics but all i am saying is I hear lots and lots of rumors and complaints about these things happening but not a picture one or anything like that to prove it I say that they are innocent til proven guilty! Nothing but personal stories.
This whole subject would not have generated as much heat as it has if it were something different. Okay for example I know that the governors tag holder is not going to shoot a rag horn but say he was in pursuit of it and supposively everything that people are saying is happening is going on if he ended up bagging the raghorn people would not care as much as if something like this happened. But with something like the spider bull hitting the ground I beleive definetley gets more people fired up.
Last but not least I agree with all you guys that think that the road blocks and stuff like that are wrong I agree 100% -if it is happening- Personally anyone who blocked a road interuppting what I was doing especially something as incredible as hunting would have a fight on their hands!! But if it can be proven I will admit and stand corrected and apologize for the comments made in sticking up for these guys!!
I know this has gotten off the original post a ways cause really the topic is the concern that the public has with the almighty dollar and hunting togather with what people are going to start thinking or even acting in the direction of hunting and if there should be exceptions to the animals taken in the manner the spider bull was for the record books, And the whole commercializing hunting cause of the high bid auctions followed by the high paid outfitter to take a record book animal and if there should be an exception to the acheivement of it versus DIY hunts
 
i can see 1972 and a few others just waltzin down the yellow brick road!

We're off to prove conspiracy, in every thing we see! we're off we're off we're off we're off!
littlebeaver.jpg


Wildlife population control specialist
 
I understand both sides of the issue, The actions I wrote about I have witnessed first hand and there are many variables involved. I'm hoping in a general way we can have a dialoge about these concerns, maybe right here, right now we can start fixing this. Will take level heads and cooperative dialoge from both sides, it's worth a try.

I doubt I'll get any responce, this is my first attemt here but I've tried before elsewhere and I've only gotten silence from the hunting industry side. Heck, call me names, a liar, anything, at least we might get a discussion going. Nothing can be said that will insult me, I've been married for 28 years, I've heard it all.

My opinion on the outfitters side. This situation didn't happen overnight, it evolved. Started with having unpaid family and friends coming and particapating. The extra eyes didn't hurt either. What's not to like about spending a great time with those closest to you and doing something you love. For some this is still exactly what it is. Others have taken this, and built a successful business blueprint, and yet at the core I imagine it's still about doing what you love with family and friends. I know this has just crept up on them to the point we're at now. Most guides/outfitters I know are great guys, they just can't see outside the box they built around themselves.

The two biggest issues we need to look at that is a public relations problem.

We need to get the number of people without a tag or tag holder out of the field when there is a general hunt going on. Take 12 guys with the hunter if you want just don't have them out roaming around messing up the game or other hunters. If you have a gov tag that allows you to hunt out of general seasons, during that time, fine do what you want. Just don't publisize that kind of circus to the public, maybe your clients and friends think it's cool, that's about it. And please don't shoot animals in a subdivision where granny is watching you out the window eating breakfast, I don't care how big it is.

Finders fees is the uncontrolable wildcard. Treasure hunting will bring out the bad in some people. It's unknown how many are out there and what's going on in their minds if they even think they have a chance of cashing in.

We can discuss this in a general way without pointing fingers. Probably just hear crickets chirping, at least i'm trying.

Kent
 
NeverStopHuntin,

Come on man, obviously you haven't a clue who you're talking too. "know nothing about shed hunting" ha ha

listen jack, if this is a wild bull he isn't just 4 or 5 years old. so where the heck was he the last few years that he had to be 400 ish. No one, not a soul knew about him or has video. he must have been so old that he just got dumb and turned up huh! Hmmmm....did they turn in his jaw to be aged? where is the cape? does it have a hole in the ear?

I'm not saying he couldn't be wild. just a little fishy is all.

GO ahead and bash me!! you guys are so smart.
 
The change many of us think needs to happen is going to have to happen from within the hunting community, if the majority of hunters look unfavorably upon certain practices, then those things won't happen as often, in rock climbing if climbers go in with a hammer drill and bolt a route, the climbers these days are looked down upon by their peers, so thats why it rarely happens anymore, if climbers climb that route cleanly they are admired, I hate to say it but rock climbers have evolved with their sport far more than hunters have, wild country is shrinking and technology is improving to the place where we as hunters need to evolve and improve in other aspects of the hunt beyond just the kill
 
What I would like to know is, Who was the moron that released
that "wild" farm feed, inbreed, so called elk into the wild days before the guy shot it? Why were there not any pics of the elk in years past, or any other mention of this elk.
 
It's all about the money. Bulls are planted on the Deseret also for big money hunts! They just don't make it so freaking obvious!
 
I received this email from Don Peay, figured it applies exactly why I feel the way I do:
"There was a fairly negative article on the Outdoor Life website about the largest bull taken in the history of North America ? this past fall, on public land, in Utah. The Spider Bull.



Here was my response, and I included a photo of the 2005 state record elk taken by Lloyd Jacobsen ? a retired school teacher, and Darrell Sneddeger ? a small business owner in rural Utah ? who had the all time rifle Utah bull taken in 2007.



The class war far mentality in America and in hunting is getting old. By all sportsmen coming together, we can all win. Class war far will lead to the destruction of America, and it will also lead to the destruction of what SFW has worked to build. And, I would also like to add that Doyle and Caryn Moss have done a lot to help SFW, and they have done a lot to help Utah conservation.



My response to outdoor life:







Andrew McKean could not have been more wrong in his editorial blasting Utah?s elk management program of being egalitarian and violating the North American Wildlife model, where the public gets the benefit of wildlife versus the European model, where the land owner and the wealthy has it all. The following is a more factual account of what it has taken to produce such a tremendous animal ? and thousands of tremendous elk year in and year out for the American sportsmen on Utah?s great public lands.



At age 5, I went on my first Utah deer hunt with my family in 1965. Utah had tremendous mule deer herds back then. But to see a moose, bighorn sheep, Bison, mountain goat, elk, or wild turkey, we had to leave the state and go to Yellowstone Park, or some other place. Utah simply had none, or very, very few of these other species.



During the 1970s and 1980s, the Environmental extremists shut down active federal land management activities, activities that promoted good deer habitat, and the ban or curtailment of predator management were the main reasons Utah?s once famous deer herds began a precipitous decline dropping from once 600,000 animals to less than 200,000 in 1993. Other factors of a growing Human population with increased highway traffic, more houses on winter ranges, etc, contributed, but some wilderness areas such as the Henry Mountains saw dramatic declines in deer herds due to changing habitat and increasing predators. It was during this period of time that a handful of extremely dedicated Utah Division of Wildlife Resource employees and sportsmen began the HUGE political fight with the Utah ranching community who were completely opposed to the restoration efforts for elk, bighorn sheep, moose and other species. There were actually fist fights at the public meetings where elk transplants were proposed, and two Utah division of wildlife resource directors were fired for their pro-elk stands.



Utah?s elk herds grew from less than 5,000 animals in the 1960?s to nearly 60,000 by the early 1990s. I distinctly remember seeing my first Utah elk in 1974. For Utah elk hunters, if we wanted to hunt elk, we had to go to Idaho, Colorado, or Wyoming.



During the growth period of Utah?s elk herds, the hunting or management strategy was controlled by the cattleman, and their approach was unlimited male permits. After the opening morning, there was less than 3 or 4 bulls per 100 cows, and this resulted in terrible elk ecology and biology as the young males did not break up the herds into smaller herds the way natural elk herds do for short and synchronized breeding seasons.



Utah?s current Director, Jim Karpowitz, as a young biologists proposed ?spike only? hunting as a way to get more mature bulls into the herds, which would create a more natural elk rutting season, and more mature bulls for hunters to harvest in the late 1980s. The public meetings were heated, and sportsmen often said, ?hey, I just don't want to shoot a spike, if I see a big bull I want to shoot him.? The response was, when was the last time ever you saw a 2 or 3 or 4 year old bull ? The answer, well, I guess I really haven't.



So, Karpowitz with the support of some future looking sportsmen groups began to impose some self regulations on permit numbers and harvest. The facts were, in the early 1990s, the only chance a Utah elk hunter had to take a mature bull elk was to leave the state and hunt elsewhere, or go to a private ranch, where limited hunting produced some large bull elk, and those elk were of course, very expensive hunts.



Director Karpowitz also sounded the alarm about the dramatic decline of Utah?s public land range conditions in the late 1980s, over 60% of Utah is federal or state lands. Two major problems ? one the federal land agencies were stopped by Environmental extremists to do active management, and there was NO money in state wildlife budgets to do habitat work, to start new herds ? anti wildlife legislators cut state budgets to stop all transplant efforts, etc. In fact, one such legislator told me, ?don, if you want to hunt in the future, go buy a ranch, the only good hunting in the future will be on private ranches.?



In 1993, Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife (SFW) was started to try and restore habitats and have a management system where hunters could have a hunt on public lands better than those found on private ranches. In the late 1990s, a forest ranger named Kreig Rasmussen shared our passion for healthy habitats, and through private donations, and limited federal funds, he started some small ? 500 to 1,000 acre ? public land restoration projects. Not coincidentally, the first projects completed by Mr. Rasmussen were completed on the ?Monroe elk unit?, the land that produced the Spider Bull.



SFW by and large started and pushed for the Conservation Permit program, which Auctions 5% of all the public land unit permits, with all of these funds going into land restoration, and transplanting new herds of wildlife. The auction program ? much maligned by Mr. McKean ? has produced over $17 Million in badly needed on the ground funds. Through SFW efforts, that $17 Million was used to get over $100 Million in matching state and federal funds, and the state of Utah leads the nation in active federal land restoration, treating nearly 200,000 acres of land a year, in a wonderful Private sportsmen group, state wildlife agency, state legislature, and federal land agency program - $13 million a year going on the ground to produce better food for elk and mule deer, and other species.



So over the last 15 years, the results of dramatic habitat improvement, and hunting strategies to produce quality hunts on public lands has resulted in astonishing results for elk hunters in Utah ? residents, non residents, and a few 5% auction tag buyers.



IN 1990, there were less than 300 ?trophy? elk permits in Utah. And, it was very rare, if ever that a hunter had a chance to take a 320 Boone and Crocket animal ? the book entry level is 375.



In Utah today, there are 30,000 total general and spike only elk permits ? about the same number of general elk season permits. However, there are NOW 2,500 trophy elk permits, and each year, 2,500 hunters can go out on the public lands and have a chance to take a truly dream hunt, on public lands, for less than $350. Since 2000, Utah has produced more record book elk than almost all the other western states combined. IN 2005, a retired school teacher, Lloyd Jacobsen, took the all time state record elk scoring 408 net typical inches. That record was broken by three different elk hunters in 2006, and in 2007, Darrell Snedegger, a local rural small businessman took the new all time state record rifle elk, scoring 427 inches, and the new all time record archery bull was taken by a guided ?money hunter? with a bull over 443 inches.



So, compared to 1993, there is dramatically increased opportunity 2,500 tags versus 300 tags for hunters each year to go out and take a TREMENDOUS bull elk on public lands. Back then, the average income hunter had NO chance of taking a record book elk, today because of a management system, 30,000 hunters get a recreational hunt, and 2,500 elk hunts get the chance of a lifetime. It is a function of management programs ? a program that produces elk herds with mature bulls - like nature intended ? running the herds, and great habitat to produce good calf survival and large male horns.



The challenge is now every hunter wants a Utah elk tag. The total number of special tag requests in Utah has gone from 20,000 in 1998 to 140,000 in 2008. If everyone who wants a permit gets one, Utah?s deer and elk herds would be shot out in a year.



Utah?s once famous deer herds have also responded to habitat improvement and predator control. And those terrible ?rich guys? have provided funding to dramatically increase herds of moose (4,500), bighorn sheep (2,000), desert bighorn sheep (3,000), bison (650), mountain goats (2,500), antelope (12,000), and wild turkeys (40,000). None of these species were found on Utah?s landscape when I started hunting in 1965. And, we are working hard to increase elk herds to over 80,000 animals as the increased amount of food grown on our public lands can support it.



The greatest threat to the western states elk hunting and big game herds is unmanaged wolf, bear, cougar and coyote populations. Go talk to elk hunters around Yellowstone park where tens of thousands of elk, and big bulls used to be hunted each year.



And, finally, to the Spider Bull, this animal is a direct result of management strategy and great habitat. The habitat restoration efforts got its start from the ?rich? trophy hunters, and the serious hunters Andrew McKean maligned in his article. And, over 100 public hunters had a chance to hunt the spider bull in 2007, and in fact 30 public archery hunters hunted that bull in 2008, 60 public rifle hunters hunted the Spider bull in 2008, and 20 muzzleloader hunters hunted the bull before he was taken by Mr. Austed, Congratulations to him, his guides and thanks for the $150,000 donation to grow more elk food in the future. If every hunter who wanted a tag got one, the spider bull would have been dead as a spike bull. Utah has been there and done that, and we don't ever want to go back to a war zone, then fighting 10 other hunters over who shot the elk first.



As state and federal budgets for wildlife are facing the Axe, and many of our public lands are over hunted, over-crowded, and only produce yearling animals, if you look at the 400% increase in hunting opportunities in Utah for trophy elk, deer, moose, bighorn sheep, mountain goats, bison, wild turkey etc for the public land hunters, with everyone who gets a tag, having a chance to take a record book animal ? not all work hard enough, or are lucky enough to get one ? other states might want to look at Utah?s futuristic management system. By sportsmen from all economic backgrounds pull together, we can all have better hunting, McKean?s class warfare article completely missed the mark, and perhaps America could learn our lesson here as well, we can all work together and win, or be divided and all loose.







Don Peay

Founder, Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife"

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
What has that long story about wildliife managment got to do with hunting ethics? there are lots of wildlife managment success storys in North America,at one time there were only 35 thousand pronghorn in the entire world, when you take pictures of a live animal, advertize him on your brochure, name him and then spend whatever it takes to kill him and you wonder why some people question the ethics involved? I don't care if every hunter acts as one we are still far far outnumbered so we should probably try to look on ourselves and imagine how others look at us.
 
What i would like to know is who was the elk rancher that released the so called "wild", farm fed, inbred, elk?
Why were there no pics of this "elk" in the years past, or any sheds from it? There are a lot of missing info, and no one wants to man up and say that they released the elk. I would not want to kill a bull elk that has been farm raised, or the son of an inbred one either.
The gov. tag, and auction tags, and cmwa tags may create some money to help with wildlife, but when they spend thousands of dollars on a S##t load of guides to go out for weeks on end, it the words "fair chase" Absolutly no meaning what so ever.
The wealthy, should have the same chance as the poor, in having the chance of drawing any sort of tag as the next guy.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-14-08 AT 11:53AM (MST)[p]bukhunter,

Thank you for sharing my same thoughts and concerns. I feel the same as you. Look at apollosmiths late season hunt forum as well as Hazmats posts. This is my neck of the woods and this is how hunting is supposed to be done. This way of hunting needs to be preserved. The way the guided hunters are hunting; it is as if they are farm hunting, weather the animal is a farm bull or not. My hunch is that he was bought and planted.
 
Pro, What does that story have to do with any of this? I know a lot of guides and most are great people. Book clients then go hunting and well doing this try and get the biggest animal they can. But when it comes to this type of guiding it is not fair chase! Please show what mossback has done for the wildlife. Spending money on gear is nothing different than any other hunter. Has he donated money to the department? If so how much? I have not had a run in with Doyle but I have ran into outfits like his, blocking roads and extra. Any one that does this needs a good a** kicking. I to believe we need to be together or we will fall. Time to stop this type of hunting.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-14-08 AT 12:10PM (MST)[p]One more thing why is it that it is the same rich guys getting the big elk with mossback. Reason, they pay more than your strait guide fee. They pay for scouting for many people and finders fee and the list goes on. This is the problem it is not fair chase!
 
spikehunter,

I dont know where your neck of the woods is, but if it is the same there as it is in my neck, southern utaHA HA, It has come down to me noteven trying to get a tag here.
I have a better chance in my home town then anywhere else, the people that I see here doing some of the most illegal things that you can think of. Opening day of deer archery, I saw a fourwheeler driving 15ft off to the side of a graded dirt road, it is no wonder, the activists are doing what they do, It makes it harder for the newbys to even get a chance at a buck.
With all the guides riding all over the place when people are hunting, makes it the much more worse.
The forest service and fish & game need to get together and come up with a more extencive plan to keep things like this from happening.
Dont get me wrong, I love the outdoors, hunting, fourwheeling, and just driving up the mountians, but if it came down to them shuting things down for awhile, I think that people will realize that they need to do more to help, and not more to hurt.
 
bukhunter

"The wealthy, should have the same chance as the poor, in having the chance of drawing any sort of tag as the next guy".

They do have the same chance; they can put in for the general or NR draw. I think you may have meant to say the poor should have the same chance as the wealthy. My comment to that is that most of the wealthy earned that. We all dish on the wealthy; for the most part those individuals worked da&* hard for their money. Get educated, change jobs, find a way to become wealthy and tell me if your lifestyle changes. Would you hunt with the same old bushnell optics or would you upgrade? It always seems to be the persons wealth that you all point the issues at.
 
>bukhunter
>
>"The wealthy, should have the same
>chance as the poor, in
>having the chance of drawing
>any sort of tag as
>the next guy".
>
>They do have the same chance;
>they can put in for
>the general or NR draw.
> I think you may
>have meant to say the
>poor should have the same
>chance as the wealthy.
>My comment to that is
>that most of the wealthy
>earned that. We all
>dish on the wealthy; for
>the most part those individuals
>worked da&* hard for their
>money. Get educated, change
>jobs, find a way to
>become wealthy and tell me
>if your lifestyle changes.
>Would you hunt with the
>same old bushnell optics or
>would you upgrade? It
>always seems to be the
>persons wealth that you all
>point the issues at.


This way you can hire a small army of around 30 guides to track and watch the planted elk, keep others off of him and call the gun man in when its time..... Right?
 
Sure, someone turned an elk loose on public land that was worth untold 10's of thousands of dollars.

And I have a oceanfront property to sell you in Utah too.

And without an army of guys looking for him, he probably would have made it through this season. Doesn't sound too tame to me.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
tworay,
You are right, that is what I ment to say, thank you for the correction.
what I was trying to say, is that look at the amount of money the wealthy put into the economy compared to the "not so rich", I read somewhere in this forum, that the gov. tag, the auctioned tags, only bring in somewhere around 3-4 million, all the other tags bring in nearly 900 mill. i dont know if that is true or not, maybe somebody knows the real amount. But, I would like to get a better education, change jobs, get more money, that would be nice, but my Beliefs in the way hunting should be would not change. I have been hunting this way all my life, ever since my dad let me go with him, he has taught me it is not if you have lots of money, its the time you spend with Family, Friends, and just the time outdoors.
the wealthy make it unfair, by spending thousands of dollars hiring somebody to do the looking for them, Thats not Fair chase, thats shooting Fish in a barrel, when did fair chase come down to that.
 
txhunter,
I'm not saying that somebody did that, I'm saying that it looks like a farm fed elk. They may heve bought it, released it, and watched it to say that is on public land just to get it in B&C. It just seems odd.
Now about that ocean front property in Utah?
 
My thoughts are not against the wealthy for having money. Great for them. But having that money should not give you more opportunity at public wildlife! And the second part is those who abuse the fact that they have money to kill an animal that is not fair chase. Fact is these are our animals not to be given away to the highest bidder.
 
bearman,
my thoughts to a T. Is it so wrong to ask that we all be treated like equals, wether we have money or not?
 
I have honestly never seen more narrow minded people on here in my life. I have 3 different friends in utah who weren't able to apply for elk last year because they got caught at the wrong time of the month and didn't have the money to spare. Sure they could have spared the 5 bucks but what would they do if they drew. They had to sit out the hunt. All you whining little narrow minded monkeys on here should be takin out and given a dose of reality. You may be complaing about the gov tag guy having tons of dough but poor mr Bench in Prove has had it with you guys. He thinks an elk tag going for more than $20 bucks is a conspiracy and that the general elk hunt caters to the rich, and he's right. I said it before and I'll say it again. Everything free is the only fair way, but then you wouldn't have habitat and then you wouldn't have trophy animals to complain about. Now, lets hear everyone say "Whats this got to do with this thread"; if this thought crosses your mind please turn in your hunting license for life and go vote for Obama because you have no brain function what so ever.
 
seems like I caught somebody at the wrong time of the month. Now i dont know if you are talking about me or people in general, but $20 bucks for a tag is not a conspiracy, its the guys that have more money then they know what to do with. I cant afford to go out every weekend and scout, or take a month off from work to have somebody to look for elk or deer or what ever animal you may want, It makes me sick to get up in the morning and go to work and here about how somebodys boss, can just take off and shot something that someone else has found for them, its not right.
If you dont like my narrow minded, monkey attidude then you can just stuff it with a tampoon.
 
Now that is some funny sh**. Stinky, I know how you got that name its all the sh** in your head. The only narrow minded people are the few like you. We are the back bone of America. It is people like your self that won this election. Your thinking is typical of city people that know nothing about the out doors.
 
Now that is funny Bearman, his thinking sounds of a city slicker, and not a real outdoorsman.
 
I shoot coyotes in my backyard, and only have to travel 10 minutes to be in the total wilderness. Sorry for the barking but I was just talkin to my friend who lives in provo, didn't know he couldn't afford to apply and then I hear people talkin bout money wars and all that and don't know their not the worst off. I will agree with you on the fact of boss's going huntin whenever. I've been there. Yeah it does suck! I have one of my boss's went to africa for 2 months this year. When he got back he went on an expensive elk hunt. Then he went to work for 3 weeks then back to vacation because the strain was more than he could bear. Just ignore me for the time being.

4918bc530d0e7097.jpg
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-14-08 AT 03:30PM (MST)[p]It sickens me to see what is happening with hunting in Utah. You can say all you want, but these things are not nearly as common in other states. Wyoming for example, would not put up with this sort of thing for a minute, nor would Idaho. Where has Utah gone so wrong?

I think Utah's whole basic system is off track. There is circle of people from the Division, thru the board of big game on down through the RAC?s and to those guiding and videoing, that is threatening Utah?s hunting heritage. Our critters have become a means to huge amounts of money, both for the state and for those in the circle.

Utah produces great bulls, via very limited hunting and then offers many conservation and bid permits. These big bulls command big dollars, which are split by the state, conservation organizations, guides etc. In the wildlife gold rush, it seems we have lost our way and many just don't understand the damage being done. Each group in the circle depends upon the other in which to collect its nuggets. The state depends of the bid and conservation tags to raise funds, as do the conservation organizations. The outfitters depend upon these types of tags so they can make their money, so they promote their business by using any number of methods, some of which are ugly and unscrupulous. They promote the end result (a bigger bull than has previously been taken) That in turn makes the conservation and bid tags more valuable, bringing in more money to the state, to the conservation organizations, and to the outfitters. It's a scenario that has grown in scope annually and is becoming uglier every year. It has reached a crisis now in which many are standing up and finally saying enough is enough.

Hunting and the very animals these activities were meant to better are now the victims of this greedy ring that views animals for the dollars they render, rather than for the subsistence for which they once were valued.
I understand that Utah?s wildlife needs large sums of money to survive and flourish, but it can not be done in the manner the Division has chosen to pursue without doing irrevocable damage to hunting and the resource itself.

Posse hunting must be eliminated immediately. New and strict laws need to be put in place and every person who receives one cent of compensation for spotting any critter and divulging it to any outfitter or guide, needs to be licensed. There needs to be a law that forbids any compensation to any individual for any finder?s fee for Utah?s wildlife unless they are licensed and insured.
We need to get out of the business of selling our wildlife to the highest bidder. Although the states coffers and certain individuals will do well in the process, in the end we will all be losers.

I would like to see a maximum of two guides per any one hunter. Let's get back to hunting the critter, no matter who you are, or how much money you are willing to pay. If hunting is to survive, we must become hunters and not executioners. Sadly, under the present ways in Utah, that is far too common with those that hold the high price bid and governor?s tags.

I am not against such tags in a fair number, but until they clean up their act and add to hunting?s heritage, I oppose them.

And shame on those who have allowed this to happen. I hope the state will stand up and take the responsibility; they should have taken years ago, before this got so out of hand.

Have a good one, BB
 
stinkystomper (168 posts)
Sep-25-08, 07:19 AM (MST)
"what was utah like in 2004 for elk"
I've got a weird question for you guys. In 2004 I was hunting in the gila and had the best muzzleloader hunt ever. The bow hunt as far as I remember was slow and hot and the muzzleloader hunt was awesome. I located a giant bull 2 days before the hunt and knew he was big. Opening morning had me 60 yards from him. I watched him at 60 yards in the middle of a pile of cows for 10 minutes. Once he cleared I pulled the triger on my TC omega only to have the hammer catch on my glove. I scored this bull for 10 minutes in a 9x scope and couldn't come up with less than 430. I was on that bull the entire hunt and the rut was awesome. I am curious if this year is similar to 2004. Hopefully it is and I will have an awesome muzzleloader hunt. What do you guys remember about the hunt/rut in 2004?

Stinky, I am not sure about the rut in o4 but in 08 wwe have 500 4/8 bulls. You just need to pay around $250,000 and you can have one too. Next year we should have on show up in mid Sep that will score over 600. Come on down......
 
buglinbilly,

Thanks, you have said it perfect. I hope good will come from all of this.
 
stinkystomper,
I'm glad to see that you are an avid outdoorsman as I. I was barley able to buy an over the counter tag for archery.
 
To Everybody,

this is the first time that i have realy spoken out about things like this. If I have pissed anybody off, GOOD, to all those who are like me, It is nice to hear that I have somebody to talk to, and vent about what pisses me off. I need to get more involved, but right at this moment it is not really possible. I have a new son to think about, and when he gets to the age to hunt teach him the things that my dad taught me.
Respect the land and animals, and they will be here for years to come.
 
Really, a 600" bull for only $250,000! WOW! where do I sign up! Will they carry me around in one of those silk enclosed boxes like they did for Cleopatra back in egypt? ROFL

4918bc530d0e7097.jpg
 
I read all these posts some are dumber than Whale-$hit.
people talking about find a shed from the bull will prove it was a wild bull, Has any-one stopped and thought if this is a RANCH Raised BULL you don't think some would seen him in the pen or maybe feed him in the pen or shown off to friends with a"look how big of bull I raised" had a dozen pictures of him behind the fence maybe even doing some breeding. I guess he was raised in a cave the last several years and only seen the light of day this hunting season. And still DIY hunters had a chance at him before the G-Hunter did, so who bought this bull and turned him loose, The outfitter,The hunter, or just a really nice guy turned a 40 grand bull loose. To every-one who is jumping on the last band wagon in town have a nice ride. LOL
 
I think you register with Moss Back. He seems to outdo himself every year. Don't quote me on the price; it may go up by next year due to the price increase of enhanced foods.

As far as getting to the elk, farm raised move a bit slower and I think they take you most the way in a truck.
 
Pro, That article is ok for what it says, some small inaccuracies but nothing to worry about. It doesn't answer any of the concerns in the original article about whats going on in the hunting industry. Az and Utah have a lot of the same history, it was the hard work of our fathers and grandfathers coming together that made these changes. It had nothing to do with the hunting industry, especially somebody in the industry today, they're just reaping the benefits like anybody else. If they happen to belong to an organization, doesn't put them above anyone else that belongs. Doesn't preclude them from having their actions scrutinized.

The Corporate hunting blueprint evolved especially for the gov tags. It's not how much is spent on the tag at the auction we care about, that's not our business and the more the better. It's what type of hunting is being bought with added money, and the negative perception this is generating to the public. Corporate hunting and gov tags are linked like siamese twins, and people's opinion of one will be the same for the other. I remember when we used to congratulate the tag holder for buying the tag, hiring a top guide and killing a great animal, not anymore, not like this.

One more time, will any outfitter or guide here have a dialoge about the issues the hunting community and general public have with corporate hunting.

Publisizing video portfollios, and naming public animals in a manner that seems as if you are offering them for sale. This was kind of catchy at first but is getting old fast.

Having a posse spreadout in an area without tags or clients during a hunt. The copycat boom with this is staggering.

Offering finders fees, only the really big money hunters or those in the hunting industry can afford this. Some big name hunters that make their living with shows and magazine articles, promoting products, have to produce every year and offer finders fees also. This is the shady underbelly of the hunting industry, notice I didn't just say outfitting industry, That really needs to change.

Crickets are still chirping.

Kent
 
Gator.......+10000000000



That is the VERY FIRST post on this whole thread that even makes sense!!!

I have been VERY hesitant to even post this because I did not want to get involved....But OH WELL....here it goes....

I spent time looking at this bull during the summer! I saw him during the Rifle hunt. My uncle had a muzzy tag and we hunted this bull HARD for 4 days before Denny shot him. We were VERY VERY close to getting this bull as DIY!! If we would of had the Rifle tag, we could have shot him, our hunt just had not started yet.

When I found this bull, he was with 15 cows. He was screaming and chasing his cows back into the trees. There was NOTHING that indicated that this was any kind of ranch raised elk.

Saying that ONLY Mossback was able to kill him. NOT TRUE. We had a VERY good chance to kill him, and we were not able to close the deal!!! I guess we were just not good enough, but we were VERY VERY close! To see that bull in the wild chasing cows was a LOT of fun and something I will never forget!

I just have one question.....If we HAD killed the elk..would there be this much HATE going on, or would it all of a sudden be ok, because we only drew the tag. I think there are those that would HATE NO MATTER WHAT!!!!

I wish WE would have killed that bull...but I say congrats to Denny...he was the one that got it done.

All you haters need to find something else to put your energy into!!!
 
"Pick your trophy elk from the specials listed on our website or you can choose any management bull ranging from 275 to 450 plus. All bulls are green scored to SCI requirements in August. In your presence your trophy bull will be scored again to verify scores.


You can live the dream or you can just dream. Choose your Special Bull and send in your 50% deposit. We will ship him to the hunt site for your trophy elk hunt of a lifetime. There are many hunt preserves, but few are operated and guided by professional hunters. For your experience and a huge trophy of a lifetime, make XXX XXXXXXX Game Farm your next hunting experience. We do our best and truly care about your concerns."


This pick is 2005 and scores 441 at the time. Look familiar?

2005 score 441
Projected score 2006: (450 to 510)

http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/User_files/491e12862e242af6

look familiar? It is possible!
 
My question to you Fishlake. You did not take spider, ok.... Lets se pics of the bull you did take!
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-14-08 AT 05:26PM (MST)[p]BB, 1972, bukhunter, stinky, gator, Fish. all good posts and points.

Fish, I want to congratulate you for hunting hard with your Uncle and almost making history, I really wish you had done it but what a great story none the less. You diffinately would have been congratulated for killing that bull the way you hunted, even if you were the one that bought the gov tag. If you had bought the tag and hunted exactly like Denny, The only difference would be the name Fish on the client line.

Kent
 
Just trying to stay neutral here but........If the spider bull was a farm bull wouldn't they have raised him from birth? Wouldn't this deal have been planned a year or two in advance?
Of course it would. Doyle is no fool, he would have covered every detail.
If I were the one doing the planning I would have also planned on scattering some of the sheds around monroe that I picked up off the farm at least a year before.

Worst case.....Doyle could at least say he picked up the sheds over the last several years and that he's been watching the bull the whole time?

I've had a lot of doubts about this bull as well since it was spotted, but the more I think about the shed issue the more I think it has nothing to do with moss. It may still be a farm bull, but one may never know.

4918bc530d0e7097.jpg
 
Do you know the price last years set of sheds would fetch for this bull. Don't you think you would have seen them in the shed section on MM?? They would have made headlines on somones site!
 
Congrats Fishlake on bringing some reality back to the hunt for this bull. It seems like the facts about what really happened on Monroe Mountain and who had chances to hunt and shoot this bull in the days prior to Mr. Austad's success have been lost in the story-telling and hand wringing by those who simply can't stand the fact that somebody other than them or a DIYer (and God forbid, a Governors's tag hunter) killed this bull.

Sorry, but if Don Peay's post is correct and 30 public archers, 60 rifle guys and 20 muzzy shooters had a chance to find and shoot the Spider on Monroe Mountain before Mr. Austad did, then what is everybody so upset about? Add a few family members and friends along with these folks and suddenly its pretty simple math to figure out that there may have been as many as 250 people hunting and looking for this bull before the evil posse hunting, finder's fee and profit driven outfitter and his client got lucky.
 
Man, this topic has killed my sense of humor...

So, Spidey is farm raised? As was previously mentioned, where's the beef? I.e., where is the proof? All I know is that he managed to avoid a gaggle of trail cameras, guides, spotting scopes, and a SH load of hunters including arguably the best monster bull crews that there are for quite some time this season alone. As for the video of him in velvet with a camper in the background? So what, if I had a buck for every big bull or buck I've seen acting stupid in velvet in general units during the summer months I'd have a nice chunck of change in my pocket. Would a farm bull be able to survive that kind of onslaught for so long? I think not.

So why hasn't anyone found any sheds or seen this bull before? All I know is that if I found sheds or saw a bull like this I sure wouldn't tell a soul what I knew. Especially if I was most likely the next guide in line to guide a top dollar paying guv tag hunter. You'd be an idiot to publicly let the cat out of the bag if you were an outfitter. I don't think anyone who put forth video of the bull this summer was an idiot though as it seems that the "secret" about this bull finally hit the streets/internet. If I needed to book a few more trips for the season I'd sure as hell let people know I knew where this bull was if the good old cat was already out of the proverbial bag. If the whole situation seems nonsensical to you take a step back and look at the entire picture - epecially if you were in certain people's shoes or if this were taking place in your "home" unit.

Now, am I happy with entire situation? No way. I would never enlist an army of guides/spotters to get any animal for me, no matter how huge it was. That is NOT a fair hunt in my book and this is the only aspect of this hunt that troubles me. That's my opinion and I don't expect everyone to agree with it and that's fine by me. Do I respect the guys who put in the blood, sweat, time, and money needed to bring the Spider bull down. Hell Yes. They worked hard on a job until the job was done and done well. These guys should NOT be chastised for doing what they were paid to do. But, I think that the IDEA of an animal that can be singled out and essentially bought by quite literally the highest bidder is troubling. It's one thing to hire a guide or outfitter to help out on getting the job done but it's quite another to invest a huge chunk of money into killing a specific "trophy" animal. That being said, I'm no hypocrite. If I had the means I would buy the best governor tags possible for the sole purpose of being able to chase big bulls in the best hunting spots for months on end. Seriously, who wouldn't?

I pray for the sake of hunting for us all that there is nothing "farmy" about this bull. The anti-hunting attention that this could be bring upon us all would be horrific. God knows it's been bad enough amongst ourselves.

I guess I really hope that this truly was the biggest baddest wild bull out there.

-Cody
 
And who are the haters? It would seem to me that is the people that think the manner of guiding is ok. And get mad when people don't like this. Fact is this has little to do with the elk and all to do with the manner of hunting! Wake up and read the writing.
 
Didn't Don Peays article say 100 people had a chance to get this bull in 2007? what about 2006? whats going on here, not that it matters that much but someone is full of it
 
piper,
your right. Where are the pics from 2006-2007? And to Fishlakeelkhunter, if you say that you hunted this bull. do you have any pics to try to change my mind about this whole thing or are you just bsing?
 
>piper,
> your right.
>Where are the pics from
>2006-2007? And to Fishlakeelkhunter, if
>you say that you hunted
>this bull. do you have
>any pics to try to
>change my mind about this
>whole thing or are you
>just bsing?

We were a little busy trying to put a stalk on this bull to take any pictures...There were only TWO of us one with a gun, one with a call...WE didnt have 15 guys to video as we were trying to get it done. So NO I do not have any pictures of the bull hard horned. I do have some of him from the summer that everyone has seen. So if me not having pictures makes you think I am BSing then I guess that is all I can do. There are many guys on this site that know me and know that I would not say these things just because!

This is why I have hesitated to even post of my experience with this bull....because no matter what you say there is always those that will call you LIAR!

Do I know for a fact that this bull is a TRUE wild bull.....I can not confirm that...But I can not confirm that is is not either...And no one can.

I do know that we hunted hard for this bull and had LOTS of chances as good as anyone to kill him and everything I saw and the way he acted and the places that he hid...showed me that he was as wild as any other bull on that Mountain.

For those that said he was tame because he walked by a trailer in the summer in full Velvet.....I ask if ANY of you have ever spent time on the Monroe in the Summer??????? You can drive right up to herds of 10 to 30 bulls standing in a meadow and they just look up from eating to see what you are and go back to eating. You can drive a Pickup to within 50 yards most days. There are lots of elk and lots of People up there all Summer....it is GREAT fun. But come the hunt...there is LOTS of places to hide on that Mountain. If you have never been up there but keep spouting off, then come on down...I will be MORE than happy to take you for a little ride and show you what it is all about!!!!!!!

Crap...this is why I never should have posted my experience....It just gets me going more and more!!
 
fishlakeelkhunter,
I can understand where you come from on the having only 2 people to hunt with, I myself go out alone,armed with only my weapon and my trusty side gun for protection. But to me that the only pics are that of him are only days before and no other pics have surfaced since then. it just makes me wonder.
And I have been to monroe before, I do know that there are lots of hiding places. I guess that I am kind of a skeptic when I see a big bull like that and not one mention until it is killed, and all the rumors about how it was hunted. I would love to go back up there sometime, but work and money are just a little hiccup in my life right now.
 
well all the guys who think this a penned raised bull Please tell WHO turned it loose where all those DIY hunters had a chance to kill it before the G-hunter had a chance, Now if it was me I would wait until those season was DONE so NO_ONE could kill my bull that I had brought to turn loose to Hunt,Wait,Wait,Wait that kind of sounds silly how in the sam hell can you think some-one would spend that kind of money and NOT make it a sure thing. There are Aliens in New Mexico too just not the ones you think.
 
The thing that is really troubling about Spidey isn't the fact that he was killed. All you can say is congrats to the hunter. Who cares what it cost? What is really bothersome is the commercialism from start to finish. It appears that Mossback & ##### and a whole bunch of other people found this bull and could see dollar signs. The whole thing turned into some kind of Reality Show for profit. Ted Riggs is rolling over in his grave. Shame on all of you that can only see dollar signs in a set of antlers. I ain?t buying the movie or the magazine. So there Hmmmmp!

RUS
 
IS SOMEBODY GROWING NEXT YEARS 600" TRANSPLANT BULL YET???

ANYBODY GOT PICS OF HIM WHEN HE WAS JUST A 500" PISSCUTTER???

I CAN ONLY IMAGINE THE ODDS ON UTAH'S LE ELK HUNTS FROM HERE ON IN!!!

COME ON RUS!!!

YOU COULD BUY THE MOVIE & PAY THEM THE SAME WAY CUPSY PAID YOU!!!

DON'T BE SUCH A SORE SPORT!!!



THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!
47654abd5a8fd79a.jpg


469ff2b8110d7f4e.jpg


THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
Krp, buglinbilly, and mulehound, those are excellent posts and I think hit to the core as to what we are discussing. Is this class warfare? Sure, but I again can't help wonder why I now have to wait 5 years to reapply but denny can buy a tag next year? Is it because he is supper wealthy and I'm not(thats not class warfare is it?) As to Tworays post, yes we could do all that to get rich or we could sell meth, steal identities, steal cars, run hedge funds, etc. You missed the point, it isn't the money its the ethics involved. If you don't live in Utah, you don't understand how poorly the states DWR is run. I hunt geese, in utah their is a northern goose zone, Why? because the two high dollar clubs up north didn't want the two week split to hit during the fall before freeze up. The proposal was for it to hit during the rifle deer season feeling that most of your goose hunters would be deer hunting and they wouldn't miss out. I was at the RAC meeting, the only people that were opposed were the clubs and they showed up in mass and were loud in opposition. Presto... a zone just for them giving them the dates they want. We can spend days arguing CWMU's and why they get 60 days to hunt and I get 5-14, not class warfare I'm sure. How about our good friend(and professional guide) Rulon Jones, this guy takes a client out of boundary, after season(POACHING to most of us) and kills a moose. Last I checked he's still in buisness. Utah decides to limit deer hunter numbers to 90,000. The first year they don't sell out the tags, did they celebrate because their would be less pressure? No, they did re opened sells to hit the 90,000 mark.
THE POINT. The point is, don't get sidetracked with doyle or denny or the bull itself(I named my kids not an elk). Depending on new numbers, in the state of Utah, hunting/fishing is the 2nd or 3rd biggest industry. Why do we allow the state to be run like this. Skiing gets their own tourism board, do we? The state injects millions into their industry, why does the fish and game have to sell tags to get theirs? Did you ask your up for election state rep what he/she was going to do to fund wildlife so we don't have to sell our animals to the highest bidder?
Second, why shouldn't the guides that are on public land have to draw to see who gets the rights to a unit? Seems fair to me, it would lessen pressure on the Monroe, Pahvant, Henrys. It still allows for guide service. The state could charge $280 to draw and the guide could only apply for two areas. In the interest of fairness we could give them bonus points if they didn't draw. Oh ya and they could wait five years to reapply if successful per species. Anyone tell me why this isn't fair? The dennys of the world could still pay whatever to be guided, the state gets paid, and ONE GUIDE doesnt' OWN the mtn. Also, and this is most important, the guides and outfitters should be licensed with the DWR, not the state.
Finally, denny paid $170,000, others paid similar amnts. The Dwr should have to account, dollar for dollar where the money went, not just to an account, but dollar for dollar so that WE can see what you get for $170,000. I am REALLY glad that WE are having this discussion, IT IS OUR PASSION and WE can decide what happens, but WE have to wake up and think beyond "jealousy, hatred, classwarfare, scores, biggest balls, toughest, etc". GREAT THREAD!!!!
 
hussblur,
IT is unfair that we have to wait 5 years to reapply, and they get to "try" and get a tag the next year. they should be treated the same as everybody else. As far as knowing where the money should go, should be decided by the ones that put more money into it, than some high and mighty club.
I dont know how this Rulon Jones Guy is but why does the DWR and the state let him keep his business. It would be a good idea that guides like Hatch, and moss should have to apply for areas, and not be able to apply again for at least 3-5 years, or depending success, they should not be allowed in other areas while they have a guide tag there area. That seems fair that they have to abide by rules to.

bukhunter
 
The reason hunting and fishing will never get a tourism board is because it would be a percieved threat to livestock grazing and the good ol boys that run much of the state would never allow that, It has been said that Salt Lake and Utah countys are the scam artist capitals of the country and for good reason,any time people try to make a load of money off natural recources that belong to everyone someone or something is going to get hurt and things are going to get compromised
 
Rulon Jones is a former Denver Broncos Lineman, runs and owns an outfit in N. utah. It seems to me that if you want to cut a tree or x-mas tree you have to buy a permit and furthermore mines, gas/oil companies, timber companies, and even livestock owners all pay for public land usage, why don't doyle etc. The private ranch guys would obviously different. Interesting that Don Peay article talks about public hunting being equal to private. Notice that he doesn't talk across the board. The Manti elk unit has more tags given to swf, rmef, etc that probably any other. So swf thinks it is ok to sacrafice many units to create the Pahvant/monroe? I read CAELK's posts(excellent) and noticed that more than once he ran into Doyle and his guides. That was August, he didn't mention they had a hunter so were they there harrassing animals they weren't hunting? Also, if I leave my trailer on the mtn for the elk hunt I get a warning about not camping for more than 14 days, is Doyle immune? Their are plenty of units for the PUBLIC LAND guides to guide, let them draw units and species same as the rest of us. Same prices, same waiting periods, etc.. If they want to buy ranches, then thats different, but public lands are there for the publics enjoyment, not for commercial buisnesses for a handful. Lastly, outfitters/guides are licensed with the state same as a beautician, plumber, etc., this takes their control away from DWR.
 
I asked a question on who turned this bull loose and none of you guys have come up with a good answer,(I'm think there isn't a good answer because it wasn't turned losse by NO-ONE) Can anyone tell me who they think turned loose a 40 to 50 THOUSAND Dollar bull so he could be shot at by about 100 hunters.
Why didn't they just put a GPS locator on him and save themselves aton of money on all those guide fees, What was it like 38 days and a ton gas used, Maybe next year I can help those guys out and cheap up that hunt by several thousand dollars with just a touch of GPS usage.

It now has gotten down to how long a guy is camping on the mountain WTF,
Time to quit beating that horse he not getting back up.

Where next year are they going to turn the next 500" bull loose because I sure would like to put in for the draw in that unit.
Can you at least tell me that.
 
I think it will have to be the Monroe again, Pahvant is to rough he might get away, same with beaver. wasatch and manti are too big, I think the Monroe is perfect can deliver him up high, he would stay there, its great habitat, easy access, its isolated from the other areas, you have to admit its perfect, this is funny
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-16-08 AT 04:37PM (MST)[p]>I asked a question on who
>turned this bull loose and
>none of you guys have
>come up with a good
>answer,(I'm think there isn't a
>good answer because it wasn't
>turned losse by NO-ONE) Can
>anyone tell me who they
>think turned loose a 40
>to 50 THOUSAND Dollar bull
>so he could be shot
>at by about 100 hunters.
>
>Why didn't they just put a
>GPS locator on him and
>save themselves aton of money
>on all those guide fees,
>What was it like 38
>days and a ton gas
>used, Maybe next year I
>can help those guys out
>and cheap up that hunt
>by several thousand dollars with
>just a touch of GPS
>usage.
>
>It now has gotten down to
>how long a guy is
>camping on the mountain WTF,
>
>Time to quit beating that horse
>he not getting back up.
>
>
>Where next year are they going
>to turn the next 500"
>bull loose because I sure
>would like to put in
>for the draw in that
>unit.
>Can you at least tell me
>that.

And I asked the question of why this bull just popped up this year???? Were are some of the sheds found????? Were are some real pics of him 2007, 2006, 2005, 2004, 2003 or any bull who even looks close to him, and yet no proof.

As far as who would be stupid enough to turn a 50 thousand dollar bull loose and risk someone else getting him, well, I would say it is the stupid AXX'X that paid $170,000 for the tag, close to $150,000 for guide service, $20,000 to the person who found him again (right before he was shot no less)! That would be my guess. See, when this much money is involved people will do unimaginable things to get the WORLD RECORD bull. Yes, this sounds like a conspiracy and technically it is until I have proof, but you show me the proof otherwise. Like I said, along time ago in this post, give me proof and I will shut my pie hole.

Also, please keep in mind he was shot with a center fire rifle during the muzzy hunt. 100 People did not have a chance at him.

I posted an article from a place you can by bull elk (unmarked) of any class. The pic I posted with it was blocked. He sure looks familiar. He came out of Canada this year; they won't say were he went! Who is the private land owner of were the bull was crossing from? Could have he been placed there?

Matt

P.S. Nasty stupid child like e-mails asking me to stop posting will not make me stop. (E-mail Not from Gator)If Monster Muleys wants me off, he can delete my account! Freedom of speech!
 
Hoss, some great ideas there, would have to be refined a little but a good start to think about. Some good posts guys.

Gator, I believe the spider bull was wild, but I do understand why people are questioning this bull. We are tired of someone trying to pull the wool over our eyes when it comes to trophy animals.

Why would someone attempt to pawn a ranch bull off as a new world record by saying they killed it on the Selway? Fame? Money? It happened.

Why would someone be caught on the Utah/Az border with trophy heads with the wrong tags or no tags? I don't remember the details but I believe it was a well known hunter that made money at trophy hunting. Fame? Money? It happened.

I don't like to add to the theories out there but it isn't hard to see why it might happen.

I'm not talking about the spider bull here but just answering your question in general.

Spending $100,000 more on a bull is only an investment into what can be realised later by killing a world record bull. Just like fisherman understand how much can be made off a world record bass, we as hunters know what can be made off a WR bull.

Since someone already tried to just kill a ranch bull and claim it was killed elsewhere, that wasn't going to work. So you need a mystery bull, wouldn't be hard to arrange with a few years prep. You would need to release him early so he could be seen, maybe even promote him early to add credibility. I don't know how soon you would have to stop his hormone treatments so he would test clean, it wouldn't be hard to figure it out. The gamble would be in someone else killing him. He would be tame at first, you would have to train him to be wary of humans in those first few months and watch him close during hunting season. I guess you could take him back off the mountain right before the season and he would just seem to disappear, put him back after awhile so it looked like you hunted hard, and then kill him. Of course if you missed him on your first shot and he ran off, well that opens it up for everyone. This would have to be planned carefully and there is a risk that the bull will get away but the rewards would make history and a ton of money. Just answering those that think there would be no reason to do this.

This would work alot better in Az, our gov tags are open hunting the entire year. Wouldn't have to deal with other hunters in the field.

Again I don't think this happened in this case, but until there is full disclosuer by those involved the questions will continue. We are tired of all the lies in the past about trophy hunting. If you're not ashamed of anything you did, tell it all. Do you think we are going to spend money on videos, magazines, products, go out of our way to support companys that buy promotional rights to this bull. We've been fooled too many times for profit. I'm trying to help you here.

This isn't a dead horse, it's about to kick itself out of the barn.

Kent
 
Kent, you have a full understanding of my theory...

You can obviously type out better what I am trying to say.

Thanks,
Matt
 
Now that does make some sense, Money always talks but so do workers who would be working on those elk ranches in Canada so if this is what happen it will come out,I mean heck even neighbors can't keep things like this quiet.. I wonder how they got him across the border without paperwork, I do know a little about elk ranching and I can tell you the paper trail is a long and huge for all pen raised elk even in Canada, if this bull was brought up there some-one had to show him around to find a buyer IMO and there will be a paper trail a mile wide, so if that the case some-one will come forth and say yep he's a ranch bull here the pictures of him behind the fence.
But I really don't think that is going to happen if it does, I will be first to grab the rope to hang the SOBs that gave us hunters a black eye.
 
Gator, I agree with you that it most likely didn't happen in this case for alot of the same reasons you do. When it comes to the amount of money being made on trophy animals these days, I do have to think what the possibilities could be. I also understand why people are not quick to believe if there's alot of gaps in the story. We've been burned too many times lately. If we could get the entire story out and past us, then we could work on issues that affect us out in the field and public image. We need to take a hard look at some we admire in the hunting show industry, magazine article industry, as well as the outfitting industry.

Kent
 
You guys crack me up, Before long your going to beleive your own lies. This bull is assumed to be farm raised, assumed to come from a ranch in a particular coutry.Gets across the border with out any paper work -ya right-. And people are being paid to keep quiet about it. Assumed to be planted on a certain unit, a certain way, Assumed to be killed a certain time of the year hahahhahha The sad thing is the list of Assumes is still growing I think you kind of people have watched way to many James Bond movies and Have the "WHAT IF" mind set people need to just accept the fact that this bull is a DEAD WORLD RECORD that was killed by an outfitter that is good at what they do and have once again taken another record class bull in the great state of Utah. Congrats to the Mossback boys and Denny thats one heck of a bull.
 
ooh, the awesome DEAD WORLD RECORD, at least you are admitted that he was killed by an outfitter as opposed to being killed by a hunter, maybe you could be the first one to have sticker on your truck with the spider bull and Mossback together as one, wouldn't that be cool
 
Do you think that the Governors tag holder would have Done it by Himself?? Has a governors tag holder ever done just by himself? Are you saying that the Governors tag should be a DIY hunt? The Hunters on Monroe Didn't get it either I know that mossback wasn't the only bunch hunting for him. Or wait during his summer velvet pics September 30th He was captured by aliens and held captured on some planet. While in the meantime roids and antler stimulants were shoved down his throat pushing him to break the 500" mark so nobody else could have got him right?? WOW!!
 
Good gawd, some a you people need to get a life. Your Jealous rants and conspiracy theorys are nauseating. Is this website your only escape from a pathetic life? Does spreding lies and rumors about things and people you know nothing of give you reason to wake and face your day? Sad.

"Everybodys gotta have somebobdy to look down on, who they can feel better than at anytime they chose, someone doin something dirty decent folks can frown on, if you can't find nobody else well help yourself to me" - Kris Kristoferson








---------------------------------------
"I needed a cheesy signature saying like everyone else"
 
southslope82,

This Bull has Bull SHIZ written all over it. Just search the web and look thru some of the other forums across America. They are all saying farm raised bull, even a taxidermist in Monroe area. They are all calling BS. I think the real hunters are finally calling enough. Browse around some elk farm sites, look at the types of antlers they have. Look for and try to find a public non type bull that has been shot in the last 50 years that even comes close. My opinion, Mossback and guides in general have finally pushed it too far. Change is needed and it will happen.
 
> Good gawd, some a you
>people need to get a
>life. Your Jealous rants and
>conspiracy theorys are nauseating. Is
>this website your only escape
>from a pathetic life? Does
>spreding lies and rumors about
>things and people you know
>nothing of give you reason
>to wake and face your
>day? Sad.
>
> "Everybodys gotta have somebobdy to
>look down on, who they
>can feel better than at
>anytime they chose, someone doin
>something dirty decent folks can
>frown on, if you can't
>find nobody else well help
>yourself to me" - Kris
>Kristoferson
>
>Welcome to the club. Good to see you here also!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------------
> "I needed a cheesy signature
>saying like everyone else"
 
What lies are we suppose to believe, the ones from the hunting industry? We've had enough of those the last few years. Maybe it's about time we make up a few of our own, they're just as believable.

I would rather try and work on the negative public perception in our hunting community. It has been picked up by the local press lately and seems to be growing in the national press.

For those of you in the industry, if you're not ashamed of what you are doing then there should not be anything keeping you from joining in this conversation. Maybe we can come to an understanding. If your attitude is screw you peons, then we'll have to attemt hoss's approach of legislation. Limiting the number of guides in the field, outlawing finders fees, looking at telecomunications, ect. We could probably come to an understanding that works for everyone if we don't go that course. I am just trying to help you, even though you may think I'm a fool and don't know what I'm talking about. I represent the majority outside your box, open a window and look out.

I would like us to come to a gentleman's agreement, work back to friendly terms for all in the hunting community, and stop the bad PR. There's no bad PR about the average hunter, the hunting industry has had alot of problems though the last few years, with some big names at the top. It's starting to effect people's perception of me as a hunter. The, in the field problems are growing also.

Kent
 
southslope- I really doubt the planting theories, sometimes big animals just show up one year, it happens, I just don't think the killing of this bull makes a quality hunting tale, and I find your congadulations to these guys a little cheesy, it really wasn't that big of a feat
 
Piper I agree, sometimes big boy's do show up, but a 500 class bull comes outta no where? Come on.....
 
This is getting old I am tired of talking to you non beleivers its making my hair turn white, I am all for the bull is wild until it is proven farm raised! YOu know there sure are alot of them farm raised bulls that are pretty clean 6 points that look just like the ones that I have seen out in the wild. Most of the giant farm raised bulls are polished clean on the front tines from rubbing on the fence I just don't see fence polished points on the spider. Maybe there was a dental floss fence though!! IF the bull is proven farm raised I will gather all you non beleivers and take you to buy an apology ice cream cone and express my most sincere apology to you for my above posts. During the mean time I am just going to sit back and laugh. until I have some different dumb a$$ comment to reply to on this subject, The rate this is going at it probably will be in the next 10 minutes,
 
isayNUNYA, this website contains some of the people I'm trying to communicate with. What they have created has trickled down throughout the industry. What direction they go from here will also trickle down. I waste my time because hunting is an immportant part of who I am and I'm willing to fight for it's future.

Kent
 
spikehunter- I agree it is strange and showing up on the Monroe is even more so, It wouldn't really shock me if he was planted, but I think people are innocent until proven guilty, and that should probably apply in this case also
 
What makes me laugh is the few guides or supporters that get on here and call names and act like the two year old kids they are. I for one think he is probably wild but would like to see all the facts. It is far out there but could happen if some people with deep pockets wanted it to happen. Like all that are involved. Say he wasn't planted for any one hunter and was raised with out tattoo's and ear tags or any other form of identification. For the soul purpose of getting those genetics in that area. Think about the money to be made in guiding then. World class animals above any other. Who would benefit from this? I say many, many people. How hard would Utah look into this? And planted during the summer he would not have polished front tips like one had said he would have had. Once again I believe he is most likely wild. My problem is that type of hunting.
 
What are the concerns? That there are a few guys who are willing to hunt harder, get up earlier, stay out later, walk farther than 99% of the other hunters out there? They more often than not take the best animals on the units they hunt because they are hunting those units year after year, spend countless hours scouting and have the drive to hunt harder than most others out there? Their passion is hunting and they can keep their bills payed while doing it? Where is the shame?
Sorry but i doubt you have a clue what even happend when this bull was killed. Your passing judgments on people you have never met and know nothing about. Hell you dont even live in Ut.
Even if that bull was born behind a fence (which he was not) He is still an elk as wild as there ever was and dam hard to get killed.





---------------------------------------
"I needed a cheesy signature saying like everyone else"
 
Krp, man you type what my brain is thinking, perhaps we're seperated twins!! I agree my proposal would need tinkering but I am just tired of all of the commercial money being made on public land which affetcts the publics use of it. Doyle is not alone, but he wants to be the number one then his name is used as the example. Yes, I am complaining about camping time. Is it the Monroe or the Moss? The hunting "industry" is a joke. I watch the shows, how many start out with a critique of the dining or the accomidations? How many hunt in a "blind" over food plots. Feed custom foods? Bait? Now out west we are getting the finders fees and aerial spotting. Sorry guys but it is sad. I still say that if a poll was taken the "spider bull" living would have won. Jealous? No, I had 13 points, I was soon to draw the monroe or pahvant. I didn't, mainly because of the circus that surrounds these units. If I wanted to talk to doyle I'd go to Axtel, I don't need to draw one of these units. If you have a problem with any of this stuff you NEED to email your RAC, and then your legislative rep. Doyle and his ilk get what they want because they do. Doyle is good at what he does, no arguement, I do have a problem with what he does and how that affects the other people that didn't scratch a check, but waited year after year for the oppurtunity. While I am throwing out proposals, why isn't poaching a felony? The way I see it a bull elk in utah is now wirth $170,000, if you steal a lamborgini isn't that a felony? Poaching should be a felony, while your writing your reps, tell them this!
 
No, I don't live in Utah, but this same thing is happening in Az, maybe more. If you don't think the guides in Az, Utah, Nev aren't linked, you're not seeing the big pic.

The spider bull just threw a big spotlight on what has been evolving in our states. There has been some troubling stories hitting the local media the last few years but this is going national and lately they've involved the gov tags.

Again, the spider bull saga is precieved as negative to most of the hunting public and general public. It doesn't matter if that's fair or not, it just is.

Please explain how promoting a public animal and then killing him with a group of guides is positive to any outside the industry.

The negativity towards the hunting industry that is growing falls right into the lap of every hunter. We're going to pay the price also.

I guess most everyone outside is just naive, We should just shutup, and be prepared to be learned by our betters.

Kent
 
My congrats to mossback was a little cheesy I mean honestly this is only their 6th time that I know of breaking the state record for elk. Its just becoming the norm I should have expected it. I know that none of us have the kind of money that it would take to purchase the gov tag but anyone had just as much of an opprotunity to buy as the next one did I could buy it if I had the pockets just the same way Mr. Austad did. It doesn't bother me either and it shouldn't! He also has just as good a chance to draw a tag the same way I do, The bull taken wrong?? Picture this you out on a out of state hunt that you have scouted pretty hard for, with a group of your best pals and hunting partners all of you have tags and everyone kills but one guy, last day of the hunt rolls around and this buddy still has not tagged out so everyone goes to looking for a buck/bull whatever for him the last day to help him out is that wrong?? Its the same thing. Money Involved or not it hurts neither you or I. Infact it should help!! All of The Gov. tags Dollars Go to benefit wildlife wether it does or not I don't know but its suppose to. As for the record books I don't think that it should change either sounds to me that this animal was hunted harder for than alot of the other entries. -I know of some that were harvested off the side of the road and loaded whole- while others were back packed out of places. I did find a book I had it is by Roger Selner titled the "Greatest Elk" it has many state records non-typical and typical sheds you name it all wild elk however its not up to date still interesting though If you get a chance look at some of the non-typical records some pretty nasty looking elk in there some even nastier than the spider obviously not the size of the spider but there are some I'd definetley say are nastier looking. Besides the arguing going on here we are all people who eat, sleep, and breathe hunting, our Opinions might be different than others but in reality I bet we all share alot more in common than we think. If the worst of the worst comes I hope we can still stand togather and fight for what we love most,the outdoors.
 
RE: WHAT A FREAKIN JOKE!!!

This is such a joke. We live in AMERICA where people make a living off of public resources and anything else they can. Get over it. If this truly bothers you there are bigger fish to fry. How about school trust land and BLM land that gets sold to real estate developers and they turn and make millions? How about Antelope Point marina on Lake Powell or any other private marina? The list goes on and on. I don't think you realize that what you are saying is you want SOCIALIZED HUNTING. It's people like you guys that get laws passed and then look back and say what the hell was I thinking?
 
RE: WHAT A FREAKIN JOKE!!!

Everyone needs to read message 29 by peak freak on the outlaw finders fee post, its quite funny and it goes along with this one. if this is America why can't I graze my horses on public land for a 131 cents a month like other people, probably because its regulated, does that mean they have SOCIALIZED GRAZING,
 

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