Sportsmen for the WY Range

Packout

Very Active Member
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I received a mailer from a group called "Sportsmen for the Wyoming Range". Their goal is to preserve the Area from the Snake River to Kemmerer, Afton to Big Piney. They want to stop all new drilling and curb the exisiting drilling on public lands. I was just wondering if anyone has any first-hand experience with this group. I feel it is a worthy cause and is backed by many conservation groups. I would like any feedback from those who are closer to the group.

Also, why is SFW-WY not a sponsor of this group? I know SFW in Utah is Politically Driven, so why not support this cause?

Here is the web site. www.wyomingrangesportsmen.org
 
I got the same thing in the mail, I didn't know if it was legit or not. I hope they don't join up with SFW from what I've heard about our local chapter it's nothing but a fund raiser for a privileged few. I have heard good things about the one in Utah however and I am not trying to paint the organization as a whole as bad.
 
Reads very interesting and seems to have many groups involved from MDF to Trout Unlimited...

I'll fill out the post card and send it in.

Robb
 
They had a big article in last weeks Pinedale Roundup about them. I guess a retired Game Warden and Mike Eastman are the Ring Leaders. This group along with others did get 8 parcels of BLM land removed from Feb drilling leases which amounted to over 6,00 acres.AND THATS A GOOD THING!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-05-07 AT 07:44AM (MST)[p]I already sent a minmal contribution, but wanted to get some more facts before getting more involved. I really like how they have defined thier goal of keeping developement to a minimum.

(No SFW bashing, just wondering why they are not sponsors.)
 
After bashing SFW I went to the Sportsmen for the wyoming range website, I listened to eastmans video and read some of the articles, I think I join these guys and not worry about SFW.
 
I got the same mail. Seems like the letter was narrow in its intent. I was hoping they would want to address other issues like game seasons, roads, timber management, etc. Looks like the sole purpose is stopping the mineral exploration, and i do agree with that. I'd join if they were taking a wider look at the impacts on wildlife.

Just my 2 cents worth.
 
For anyone that hunts this part of Wyoming it would be a good group to get involved in and support. This mineral exploration has the ability to really negatively impact what could be one of the greatest deer herds in the west.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-05-07 AT 09:52AM (MST)[p]Go ahead - STOP all natural gas developement and oil development in the United States. PERIOD


Then try to heat your homes. Drive to your hunting spot. Hell just try and make a living doing what ever you do now.


Get a clue people. Without any new development of those resources. The US economy will be like a 3rd world country and all the luxuries that you enjoy now will be a thing in the past.

Most of you think - I want to protect my fav hunting place from getting drilled up. However you fail to reconize the importance of it. You also think that it completly drives out the wildlife out of the area and the whole area is destroyed.

This is a quick reaction that is far from being correct.

I live in the San Juan Basin and it is amazing to see that when you go out and see the wildlife in the area. Guess where they are feeding. Most of you would say far from any oilfield activity. Wrong you are. They are feeding on the side of locations - along recent pipeline right-of-ways. They are watering in ponds that were installed and paid for by the production companies. Even right along side of compressors that are running.

And by the way - guess where the best mule deer hunting in the state of NM is. Well I be darn it is in the San Juan Basin. We also have had a fairly good population increase of Elk in the basin. Guess where in 2004 the #6 pope and young typical and until this year #1 in the state bull killed? Well you would be correct if you said it. The San Juan Basin.


Poaching is down. Deer and Elk numbers are on the rise.

How could that possibly be??

Give you a hint. #1 the enviromental fanatics has stopped logging, clear cutting, cleaning out old growth vegetation and such that was so rampent back in the 30's, 40's, 50's. And not to mention stopping every fire that is humanly possible. How is it that - Old growth can get replaced as it did before we basically stopped nature from doing its deed.

Well the only way that happens now is from development.


I get so pissed when hunters jump on this bandwagon without really thinking about it from all different aspects of the impact of there actions.

Yet some of us goes out and lives in areas that are critical winter areas. Which in my eyes have a far more devesating effect on the wildlife population that any current type of oil & gas programs.

Before you jump on that bandwagon and send money to these groups examine the situation carefully and think about what it really means.
 
Excellent post 30inchbuck! You've hit all the nails on their heads. We don't need to join the "Enviro-wackos" on this one as you mentioned the real threats are the greedy deveolpers buying up large chunks of land and then subdividing them so that the "Enviros" can "live with nature"!

Only thing I would add to your post would be to mention all the good paying jobs being created through exploration and development.

"We're Mother Nature's bodyguards. And yes, we're heavily armed." What a riduculous statement in that link. It that a threat or what?

I would be the first one to join the anti exploration band wagon if our leaders and the enviros would see it fit to build more nuke plants to get us off that insane oil dependency.

Thanks to the "greenies" the libraries in Oregon will be closed because the "timber" money has run out. And this is in an area where there is an over abundance of mature trees that all logging is being blocked.

I will e-mail Senator Craig Thomas to voice my support for continued exploration.
I've vented enough!
Herb
 
I work for a production company. I take care of the SCADA, measurement and radios.
 
Herb D and 30 Incher:

As someone who comes from a logging family, I can related to some of your frustrations. Yet as a hunter, I think your view may be somewhat jaded, as was mine when it came to a lot of the logging issues of the 1990's.

The problem with large scale logging on the National Forests had little to do with the amount of trees and sustainable harvest. For years, small loggers could make a decent living, provide other jobs for mill workers, truck drivers, small retailers, etc. It worked quite well for a long-time.

Most of the small loggers were concerned about the affects of logging, did all they could to minimize its impacts on watersheds, wildlife etc. All the small loggers I know, are/were hunters, so they were connected to the land.

Over time, as the forest service became more influenced by large corporate interests who were depending upon large volume, low cost stumpage on the national forests, the quality (from a wildlife standpoint) of the logging decreased. More and more loggers became dependent upon the policies and contracts with the large corporate timber companies that bought up the small mills, giving the small local loggers very few options.

After a while, the small loggers and associated businesses were at the mercy of the large corporations who owned the mills. Those large corporations had one level of accountability. That was profits to be paid as dividends to shareholders. This is completely logical in a capitalist system and I have no problems with it at all.

As the drive for profits grew, the demands for lowered standards in logging practices increased. I could take to you to many logging sites on national forest from twenty years ago, and they still look like a nuclear detonation site. I can take you to private lands who hired the same logging companies, and they look great, even though logged only five years ago.

My point is this. It wasn't the enviro's that shut down the subsidized corporate logging practices on the national forests, and the terrible wildlife impacts that came with it. It was the manner by which the large timber companies used the public lands for a short-term (15 year) profit spike, that made them easy targets for people to attack logging/loggers.

If they had treated the public lands with the same care and nuture required when they logged private lands, or their own lands, it would have been a lot harder for the opponents to shut down as much logging as they did. If you doubt me, go look at a timber sale on private land versus public land. You will see why logging practices used by these companies on public land came under such scrutiny.

The real pawns in this scheme were the small loggers, mill workers, truckers, and other small businesses, who for many years before the large corporate timber corporations, had found a sustainable model for utilizing this renewable resource. My brother is the only remaining logger out of seven uncles/brothers/cousins in our family. None of the small logging spin-off businesses in my home town exist today.

I bring this up to the discussion of energy exploration, as I see so many parallels. Public forest stumpage was/is much lower than private stumpage. Public royalty payments, impact fees, bonding and reclamation requirements in the energy business are much lower than those paid/required when drilling on private lands. Energy companies are pressuring land management agencies for lower standards, the same as the logging companies did.

After the wells are dry or prices receed to lower levels, who is going to care about the citizens of Pinedale, Daniels, Rangely, etc., and the culture, wildlife and way of life these residents had enjoyed before the big boom? Probably not the huge oil companies now making the big profits from this.

Again, don't get me wrong. I am all in favor of capitalism, but such a political/economic system provides an arena where the profiteers will presssure agencies to make policies that increase profits, while citizens will sooner or later take a stand to protect the other public land attributes they cherish, such as wildlife.

Can exploration be done in a way that is more friendly to wildlife? Sure can, but again, that will get in the way of profits, so it is unlikely they will do so without pressure from outside sources, such as this group and others.

The pressure from those outside sources is not and attempt to stop developement, but to merely make it more accountable to the other public land attributes it will impact. Does this cost money, and make it less profitable? Sure does, but that is cheaper than stirring up such a hornet's nest that the public shuts down the exploration on public lands, the way they shut down logging on public lands.

Watching this happen, I have little, actually no sympathy for the large companies and their shareholders. I do worry about the small businesses and citizens who will be holding the bag when the boom plays out.

The two of you may count me as a radical, but I have already sent my money to this group, hoping pressure from reasonable folks like hunters will allow for developement to continue, but do so in a manner that the deer and antelope herds will survive and thrive, not just merely scrape through.

Sorry to be so long, but hard to tell such a story in a sentence or two.

Happy Hunting!

"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"
 
As is usually the case, there is a happy medium if all parties would be reasonable. I've seen wildlife benefit greatly from mineral, gas/oil, and timber development. As stated above I've also seen some areas where whole mountains were basically raped.
 
Big Fin,
Thanks for your detailed response. Apparently you have a lot of experience concerning logging issues - probably more than do I.

No, I don't think my view is jaded at all. It merely reflects what I have observed for the last 40 or so years living part time in the middle of a northern California National Forest.

I've seen the clear-cuts of the late fifties and the sixties as I used to hunt them then. What a boon they were for our local deer. We had large herds everywhere. Not so anymore. And yes, I'm also aware of our mountain lion problem. But these clear-cuts don't look like nuclear detonation sites any longer. Reforestation took care of that so well that for the unitiated they are barely noticeable if at all.

You speak of public vs. private land logging. Just last year, 2 miles from my house, a private land owner clear-cut a very steep hillside adjacent to a creek that supplies water to our town. So I'm not at all convinced that private land logging is that much better. But, again, I'm speaking from limited experience.

What I have seen, however, is the anti?s wanting to absolutely shut down any type of activities in the forest, logging, mining, etc. For them there is not middle ground. I have never heard anyone declare that they were OK with logging, mining, or other types of exploration as long as it was done responsibly. And that is where my present position is. I'm for extraction of oil, gas, lumber etc. as long as it is done responsibly. For that to happen government needs to do its job.

In my area it is the enviro?s shutting down practically every timber sale after years long court battles. Many of them live in large wood frame homes but cry and moan and sue as soon as a timber sale is announced. The same probably goes for the people against geo-exploration. I don't see them riding their bicycles exclusively.

I agree that the real pawns were the small loggers and small mill owners. And regarding standards and royalty payments etc. perhaps we need to pressure government to keep those acceptably high without shutting the business at hand totally down.

As for the residents of Pinedale and towns like it, I have heard few if any complaints when I spent time there. In fact the quite opposite was true. Of course, I didn't get a chance to speak to any of the west coast transplants there and that is where the local complaints may be coming from. You can tell where they live. It's in the prime elk, deer, and antelope corridor north and south of Pinedale - against the mountain range.

Lastly you say pressure is not to stop development etc. If I read, one of the above links correctly there was a mention of closing off substantial areas to exploration, not mitigating operations? effects but a complete shutdown.

If the animal populations were impacted at all during ongoing activities, it would be strictly a temporary thing, at worst. And should I have to forgo hunting there that is a price I'm willing to pay to heat my house and feed my diesel.

I'll stop my rambling now. I know that arguing over environmental issues is like arguing religion: One can't win.
 
Some very influential and respected groups are pushing this effort. I have the envelope on my table and need to get some money sent in. Given the Wyoming SFW didn't have their names on it makes it a worthwhile endeavor. Having worked in the oilfield for a number of years, I constantly heard the same blather that we need to drill and use our own oil. I always used to ask, why do we have to siphon every drop out of the ground now. Why not leave some for our grandchildren. My other argument was, why not use everyone elses oil first and then when the rest of the world is high and dry, we still have reserves to tap. Most folks in the patch are too short sighted to figure that out...
 
I didn't realize this organization had anything to do with New Mexico or California?

I better re-read the info.....

I thought it was all about Wyoming...?

Robb
 
i am just passing along the information I have about the San Juan Basin and warning about the intent of the enviros to shut down any thing that involves capitalism.

I just think it is a grave mistake as a hunting community to stop this. We could use the money we send to these orginizations in a much better way. Habitat Improvement and fighting the antis.

I am also trying to get across to you guys that in the San Juan Basin we have over 15,000 wells currently with another 10,000 planned for the next 10 years. Major activity is taking place and has taken place over the last 10 years. Yet the quality and quantity of wildlife in the area as I have seen is on the increase.

If oil & gas exploration and production was so detrimental to the wildlife population with all the activity we have here the way the the enviros try and convince people is that there would be no wildlife left in area with this activity.

The companies involved in the basin is not the small operations either. BP, Conoco-Phillips, Devon are the major players here.

The production out of the Pinedale region will be Coal Bed Methane Gas. Not oil. There is no current way of importing Natural Gas. They are building ships and special harbours in the US right now but they are many years away before they can import Natural Gas from overseas.

As far as the devolpment of the land - yes there will be new roads, yes there will be activity in the area. Will the towns grow yes, will the economy of those towns grow yes. How much will actually effect the wildlife in the area. Very little and after a few years the habitat will actually improve.

Thats is all I am saying - Why am I saying this. #1 I see what it has done in my area. #2 I am a conservative republican that uses common sense on politacal issues. #3 being in the mainly natural gas area I can see the steady decline in current production rates vs the steady increase in demand, which tells me we need to develop more production while searching and developing alternative energy sources. #4 I know that real scientific facts are not being used to inform the public about this. It is more of a feel good and scare tactic. Like the global warming non-sense.


All I say is open your eyes and use some commen sense to stuff like this. Keep on shuting down every captilistic venture in the US and we will soon be a Socilist country. Which is ultimately what the libs wants.

We all know what a socilist US would be like - no guns - no hunting - no reason to work - no reason to live.
 
Herb D and 30 incher:

I doubt that we are too far off in the politcal spectrum, and would probably have a great time on a hunting trip.

Like both of you, I am a conservative person. I hate government interference or subsidy. Let the markets take its course.

From that, I see low public land royalties and allowing energy companies to ignore wildlife impacts as a huge form of subsidy. It keeps prices lower (supposedly), demand artifilicaly higher, and further complicates the long-term solution to the problem.

If public lands had the same rules as private lands, had a more reasonable royalty payment requirement, and required that all attributes be considered, the profitability of public land energy development would reflect these true costs, not the subusidy that occurs when most of these operating costs are overlooked and absorbed by the taxpayer, you and me.

I hate this subsidy. The savings are not passed to the consumer, but merely distributed as dividends to shareholders, of which I am one, but me being a shareholder does not make it correct. The process is so far from a free market, that I cannot believe it exists in a society that considers itself capitalist and free-enterprise.

I think I may take my shareholder dividends (after-tax) and make that my contribtion to groups who will try to improve the emphasis on wildlife when energy policy is made.

I think the energy industry has little to fear from environmentalists. Yes they are a distraction, but a minority.

The energy industry should fear when conservative people start taking positions against the activities of the industry. This is a much bigger deal than the folks who get paid to chain themselves to backhoes, etc.

Am I willing to pay higher energy prices? Yes. I am a supporter of free markets and no government subsidy, so I had better be prepared to pay more if the government ever gets its act together and protects/values our public resources the same as adjacent private landowners do.

Do I like higher prices? No, but artificially low prices via subsidies increase demand, making the problem worse.

I wish I could share your optimistic view of energy development being so beneficial to wildlife. I hunt SW WY every chance I get, and I do see impacts. Maybe I am just looking for the impacts, but when biologists and studies tell me of shrinking deer and antelope herds during time frames that coincide with the start of the exploration boom, when similar nearby habitats without exploration impacts have had increases in populations, I have a tendency to believe what the biologists are stating.

I hope you get the tags you want and find the animals you are looking for.

Happy Hunting!

"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"
 
30 inch,

just some FYI ,
the company I work for unloaded 3 ships of Natural gas this year. It's done in the Gulf of Mexico, off the Louisiana coast. It can be done but there is also a high price to pay, money and enviroment issues. I guess time will tell if it becomes common practice.

Kevin
 
The gas is coming out of the gulf - which is ours. It is not being brought in from overseas yet - they are working towards it but not there yet.
 
SFW Wyoming worked to get a $50 Million trust fund started, and to get some matching money from oil and gas to restore alot of the drought striken and damaged deer winter range restored - just like 250,000 acres completed in the last two years in Utah.

The Utah DWR presented a proposal to the Wyoming Game and Fish and Wyoming Commission on how to get this work done.

It is SFW Wyoming's decision which group or coalition to join.

To Stop oil and gas, versus mitigate impacts is very hipocritical. When we all turn of the lights, cars and computers, then we can stop energy exploration.

The best deer winter range north of Vernal utah is on the ACTIVE strip mine, where they have lots of equipment working every day, and 300 elk and 500 deer comingle on custom engineered winter range as the equipment chugs away. The worst winter range is the wilderness study areas, completely dominated by Pinion juniper in climax vegitative state.

At the request of SFW Wyoming, i did talk with BLM Director Kathleen Clark about getting the "utah restoration efforts" going in Western Wyoming, and i believe there is $15 million in Bush's just released budget to do work in Wyoming, Colorado, Utah, Nevada.

So packout, SFW has been invovled for two years in getting mitigation acres and funding going in Western Wyoming. Personally, i hope my 12 year old son bags a buck and antelope in that country, just like i did as a youngster. To say no oil and gas A, will NOT happen, and has stated B, is very hipocritical. Mitigate, not stop is the best overall solution. It is without question, a big issue, and it requires a BIG check book to solve the issues.

don Peay
 
Don, I didn't ask a question to get a bunch of political propaganda and spin. I simply asked why SFW WY is not part of this Coalition to slow the extensive energy developement in the region. Your answer clearly states that SFW does not feel the need to slow the energy developement in this area.

Also, where do you guys get the AntiLogging spin? I havn't seen one word against logging from this group.

Thanks for the input.
 
Don, did the group state anywhere that they wanted to stop all development? Any thoughts on how you want to mitigate 10-20 acre spacing on the most unique winter range in the lower-48?
 
Did any of you not read my recent posts about Mr. Peay. Well,
If you didn't, let me spell it out again: DK PEAY IS A MODERN
DAY GENIUS!

I think this "other" organization is a bunch of hypocrites. When
I heard that it was "founded" by Mike Eastman I really had to laugh.

I wonder how much oil money has funded his childeren's, or grand childrens educations??? Why do you think Wyoming is one of the leaders in public education funding? Well, If you don't, let me SPELL IT OUT!!! OIL MONEY.

In the good ol USA their is a term known as compromise. Liberals
and PETA don't believe in this.

So when Eastman heads out to one of his favorite "Private Ranch Leases" I hope he rides a horse and carries a torch to find his way.

Anyway, gotta run. I need to turn up my furnace and go read to my kittens (with the wonderful light I have at night)!!!

The only bobcat who spells hYpocritical with a "Y"!!!!!!!!!
 
I personally believe that if we had more conservation/enviromentalist vision with in our so called Wildlife org.'s instead of wanna be politicians--big money rules-- all grass roots (cheap$) efforts fail--party line till death--

We could save alot of country for the future generations and still have some modern and much needed exploration/production.

I think there are 13 wildlife conservation groups involved in this effort...membership from both mainstream political parties and from many different backgrounds and income brackets.

Robb
 
Packout,

when facing complex issues, simple minds or simple questions don't yield results.

what i provided was some complex answers to a complex issue, and just answering your simple question would not have fully explained SFW's involvment in this complex issue.
 
"simple minds or simple questions don't yield results ..... your simple question....".

So am I simple minded because I asked a simple question? I don't need someone insinuating that I am simple minded for asking a "Straight Forward" question. I just wondered why SFW does not join in the fight against extreme, additional developement.

I doubt SFTWR really thinks they can get ALL leases and drilling stopped, but through their efforts a compromise might protect addtional acres which would have been developed. I am just researching the group and found SFW's absence interesting. Your responses are even more interesting.
 
I have to agree with packout on this one, if you read the WGF website there is a letter somewhere talking about the oil filed development, they agree it is not going away, so we need to make the most of what we have. In my opinion we need to preserve or re-engineer some or all of the winter range, and we need to be RESPONSIBLE, that means no more shed hunters tearing up roads when they know going down the road is going to leave ruts that our grandchildren will see, we need to take steps to be better stewards of our environment. But what do I know i'm just a backwards wyoming redneck.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-07-07 AT 06:46PM (MST)[p]First of all, you shouldn't be beating on Don Peay about WY SFW. Trout Unlimited has talked with myself and a couple of Board Members. They have also formally presented their concept to WY SFW's Board of Directors. Because they (TU)chose to draw a hard line on leases and took a no lease position, our group chose not to participate. WY SFW took the position that we need to slow down the lease process and access whether or not the accumulative impacts of winter drilling, transitional drilling, and summer drilling are being adequayely addressed, measured and assessed.

One of the founding concepts of WY SFW is that of multiple use. Those which have signed on to this project are sending the message that this use is unacceptable. This has the potential to lead to a defacto wilderness designation which Wyoming's citizens already said they did not want.

Oil & gas leases are already scrutinized and regulations are in place to monitor and address their impacts. Furthermore, processes are already in place to determine where and when leasing is allowed. WY SFW is concerned about the rapid development and potential impacts that may occur; however, there are also benefits which come from these actions. Most of the Wyoming Range is in a climax stage. Oil and gas developments can improve the range conditions by releasing or improving avaialable forage thus benefitting wildlife species that need disturbances in order to set back plant succession.

I find it interesting that people have singled out (WY) SFW for not signing on to this yet no one has mentioned the absence of the RMEF or other groups?

Bob Wharff
Executive Director
Wyoming SFW
aka:SMOKESTICK
 
Smoke, I am not bashing SFW at all.

I just sick of hearing "...not a problem, we will just mitigate to protect wildlife". Can you, or anyone, tell me what mitigation is working to protect wildlife on the PAPA. Too many times it is piece-meal with analysis done on well by well drilling. Not much looking at cumulative impacts.

Do I have the answers, no. I do believe there is a problem with the way things are going now and if you look at what is proposed, energy development in the area is just going to be more agressive in the near future.

This is the first I have heard about using gas development to improve wildlife habitat. Could you tell me more about it.

/quote/Oil and gas developments can improve the range conditions by releasing or improving avaialable forage thus benefitting wildlife species that need disturbances in order to set back plant succession./end quote/

I don't want to see SFW and pimping tags in MT, but this is not this issue on this topic (at least for me).
 
>I wonder how much oil money
>has funded his childeren's, or
>grand childrens educations??? Why do
>you think Wyoming is one
>of the leaders in public
>education funding? Well, If
>you don't, let me SPELL
>IT OUT!!! OIL MONEY.
>

So is DK supplying this info to you. Wyoming isn't one of the leaders in in public education spending. We have county's in this state that are struggling to get by. Litigation has gone to the WY Supreme Court over allocation of school funding. A couple of oil rich county's are falling azz backwards in money. Others are doing ok. Some like Niobrara are trying to figure out where their next buck is coming from. Until the Wyoming legislature approved significant pay raises for educators just a few years ago, they were among the lowest paid teachers in the country. Now they're about even keel.
-
On a side note, where's all the discussion about the riff raff the oil industry brings into this state. The G & F is pulling its hair out due to the increase in poaching and wildlife harassment occuring in area's with significant oil and gas exploration. Just what we need in a wildlife rich environment like the Wyoming Range.

The only Triple BB wondering if the SFW WY is now getting bigger payoffs from the oil and gas industry than it does from the WYGOA...
 
I've now officially heard it all...oil and gas development helps wildlife. Unbelievable.

Anyway, I'm also looking forward to hearing the explaination for that statement.

I think its also fair to note that under various Natural Resource Acts and policy, the public has the right to decide what is, and is not, acceptable on any given piece of FEDERAL land.

Various acts such as NEPA (National Environmental Policy Act), RPA (Resource Planning Act), FLPMA (Federal Land Policy and Management Act), NFMA (National Forest Management Act), etc. have been set up to help deal with these kinds of issues.

Under these various acts PUBLIC involvement is guaranteed by LAW. That means that if any group or any individual has an interest or "say" in how PUBLIC lands are managed...they are entitled to it. Also under these same acts there is a responsibility by the Agencies (FS & BLM) to manage in such a way as to give equal consideration, when making management decisions, to all uses of any given parcel of land...including WILDLIFE, Clean air, Clean water, renewable and non-renewable resources, etc. They also are required to manage in such a way as to not impair the productivity of the land.

In my opinion, I dont believe that the greatest good for the Wyoming Range is to put well pads on 10-20 acre spacing, punch roads all through it, and give ZERO regard to wildlife. As Miller has pointed out, this area is some of the best Winter Range in Wyoming.

I've grown weary of people thinking that the best use of the land is to drill it, mine it, or log it. In some cases it probably is. In this case its not. The publics wildlife are not being given equal consideration...and people like Mr. Peay are flat wrong about the best approach. Mitigation in this case is just not an acceptable alternative. The area is too sensitive and too important for there to be any reasonable mitigation.

Also, for individuals to rail against environmentalists is wrong. They are guaranteed under the above acts to have an opinion and excercise their rights under the law to address any concerns they have with current management practices in the Wyoming Range or any other piece of federal land in the United States. They also have the absolute right, and rightfully so, to file lawsuit when the various agencies do not adhere to various Natural Resource Policy that they are required to follow.

I wish the best for the Sportsman for the Wyoming Range. I think theres plenty of people that dont believe the best use for the Wyoming Range is 10-20 acre spacing of well pads and having roads all through it. Its more valuable to many for its aesthetic, historical, wilderness, and wildlife values...and I'm in that camp.
 
No dumb ass, DKPeay didn't give me this information. Why don't
you enlighten me with some more of your brilliant facts. It sure sounds like you have a great educational background.

You act like Wyoming's oil field industry is corrupting your state; well let me tell you something: it is the BACKBONE of
your state (next to ranching).

I can't wait to see your data where it shows that Wyoming is "in
the middle of eduction spending"

Did your buddy Mike Eastman supply you with those facts???

The only bobcat about to get a post nuked!!!!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-08-07 AT 12:45PM (MST)[p]>No dumb ass, DKPeay didn't give
>me this information. Why don't
>
>you enlighten me with some more
>of your brilliant facts.

I already did dickhead! Agriculture only contributes around 5% to this states economy. Which is a far cry from second place. The minerals industry is just over 50%. Work on your own education dumbass...
 
mtmiller,

I like how you start out with the comment that you are not bashing SFW at all then you end with your comments by stating that you don't want to see SFW and pimping tags in MT. Some how I fail to see how those comments even apply to this debate.

WY SFW is concerned about the rate of oil & gas developments throughout the state; however, as I stated earlier, taking a position of no leases is single in purpose. SFW would prefer to work with industry to ensure that our concerns are addressed rather then take the position that leasing is always bad. You questioned how it can be benefitical for wildlife. As I stated earlier, most of this area is at climax or in a low productive state. Some of that is attributable to extend drought but some of it is due to lack of disturbance. Too much disturbance and/or disturbances in the wrong areas can be negative; however, in many instances productive rates can be increase substantially. Others have attested to this in prior posts. I have been involved with oil & gas projects where productions rates increased by 200%-800%. It is not all bad.

Some have mentioned the negative impacts when industry runs unchecked. I can also tell you that it is well documented that "protecting" areas can also be harmful. Several studies have been done which demonstrate the need for plant communities to have disturbances in order to thrive. Sometimes our best intentions often lead to rather different outcomes.

I have spoken with Tom Reid (TU) and he knows we share several of the same concerns. I believe he also understands why SFW has chosen to not sign on with this movement.
 
The very little amount of "good" roads and oil development POTENTIALLY could do are far exceeded by the damage they will do via noxious weeds, accessibility, increased deer vulnerability, etc. etc. etc.

As far as plant succession...roads and oil and gas development are not an accepted way of creating earlier stages of plant succession.

I'd guess that 5 gallons of drip torch fuel properly applied would be a more efficient, effective, and way more acceptable way of creating earlier plant succession.

I really had a good laugh at SFW's expense on this thread.

I'd like to see the look on the face of any Natural Resource Manager as a representative of SFW is telling them how good roads are for plant succession and wildlife...

Truly unbelievable...and the exact reason why hunters should really consider if they want to support a group that makes such outlandish claims.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-10-07 AT 10:31AM (MST)[p]You can read anything you want into what I said but I believe anyone that has read what I wrote can see that I never stated that roads created the increased forage.

Most of these companies will reseed areas impacted. Devon Industries is a well respected Wyoming based company. They have a vested interest in maintaining Wyoming's heritage of hunting and fishing as many of their employees hunt and fish here too.

Fire is one tool that can be used but fire alone can not always affect a desired change. If the seed sources are absent (which they usually are when a site has hit climax) then burning alone will not restore plant communities. Sometimes it requires that WE activiely reintroduce desired plants into the community.

Don't support SFW, it is better off without people that insinuate and promagate facts which are unfounded.

BW
 
BuzzH has this one nailed.

MORE ROADS ARE TROUBLE. You will never undo the damage further drilling will cause. Future generations of hunters will wonder what we were thinking when we developed every last inch of our wild lands. I feel bad for them.
 
Smokestick,

You really over-state the obvious.

Of course fire is only ONE tool in list of management practices that can set plant succession back. Properly applied grazing, chaining, logging, etc. can all be beneficial.

The constant that never changes is that roads never equal better or improved habitat. Almost all forms of management practices I've mentioned above can be performed without the building of roads.

I never insuated anything, calling it like I see it.

In true SFW know-it-all fashion your agenda and how you choose to spin oil and gas development impacts is the only way anyone should address their concerns.

Thankfully, there are other people and other groups like Sportsmen for the WY Range that dont buy into SFW's propaganda.

You can sure dish out the criticism of another groups agenda...but squawk like a mashed cat when someone questions some of your claims on how great oil and gas development is for wildlife.

I think most people with more than a couple firing brain cells can see what kind of an impact a well pad every 10-20 acres along with the associated road system has on deer, elk, antelope, sage grouse, etc. The impact is not a positive for wildlife...and thats a fact.
 
buzz man,

no body wants roads and oil and gas - but the reality is, unitl the world shifts energy policy - like building more nuclear plants which the waco enviros and media shut down over some histeria, and all of us going back to horse and buggy and candles, there will be - must be oil and gas development.

Here are some cold hard facts - where developement of hydrocarbons has improved wildlife habitat:

1. The HUGE Strip mines in Hinton Alberta (some biologists said bighorn sheep can't survive unless they live in wilderness, officially designated by congress i might add) have done such a great job restoring sheep winter range after strip mining that the bighorn herds are thriving, almost triple the number of sheep than prior to the mines. Several places in Canada have proven mines and sheep go together when you mitigate. The big 190 inch rams causually walked past the HUGE trucks hauling coal on their way to the bait, ended up in horse trailers and now they are running around Utah. I personally witnessed 700 rocky mountian sheep enjoying life in places biologists said, "they couldn't live"

2. The best deer winter range in my back yard is where they brought the Kern River Pipeline through. IN the process, they tour up the old cheat grass and decadent weeds on federal lands, and planted bitter brush, sage brush, wild hay and other forbes the deer and grouse love to eat. And of course, the deer spend most of the time up there, but then they come down at night and somehow find their way around the 1/3 acres house "well pads, paved roads" in our neighborhood, eat the shrubs, dodge the dogs and cars. i can't imagine a deer not being able to survive around 20 acres spaced well pads, hell the live in our 1/3 acre lot neighborhoods.

3. As mentioned before, go out and look at the soda ash plant norht of vernal Utah as 500 deer and 300 elk (also herd some biologist say these two can't live together) feed on lush forage created after strip mining. As D9 cats are sounding thier back up sounds, deer and elk don't even raise their heads. go off the mine, and their is no forage under neath the wonderful wilderness study area mono-culture Pinion juniper stands.

driving through oil fields, the deer and elk sit on the drill pads that have been reclaimed, the best food source.

So lets set some facts straight. It is not pleasing to the human eye for those who like wilderness - yours truly included - to see lots of drill pads and roads. But until we change energy consumption, through proper mitigation, wildlife forage can be improved. i have just cited 4 examples where the "environmental theory" is proven wrong. A lot of the worst wildlife habitat in the west is in wilderness areas, or wilderness study areas that are now infested wtih cheat grass, monocultures of PJ and other plant species that need treatment, but it can't be done because they are "wilderness"
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-11-07 AT 08:58AM (MST)[p]Here's some more food for thought. The Agiricultural Research Center I work on is performinng some trials on different oil seeds such as Canola and sunflower pretty buzz word stuff that may have some use in the future. Because of that I have been doing a bunch of reading. The estimates vary according to the source but a range of new energy consumpiton worldwide would be an increase in the next 25 years of somewhere between 35% and 70%. Given that it is pretty clear we have to look at all sources of energy in order to maintain our lifestyle. (China is going to have a huge impact on world energy markets as they are just starting to explode in growth and energy consumption). If we think all of our energy is going to come from opening up more drilling than we are going to fall short. I believe we have to open up more drilling for our (American) short term needs. But it is going to be a literal drop in the bucket. Our future energy must come from a variety of sources, gas is just one of them. It will have to be some combination of gas, coal, Nuclear (yeah I'm a big advocate of designing and building modern nuclear power plants), wind, and Biofuels. Hopefully there wil be some breakthrough energy in the future too. I hope our country can get behind the idea of national sutainability, maybe on a scale like putting a man on the moon once was. I also don't believe that opening everything up to drilling is the solution either.

Edit: I forgot to add my energy conservation platform. We must become much more efficient in how we use our collective energy sources. Vehicles have to get better fuel mileage, New Home design that use geo exchange systems, passive, and active solar etc. End Edit

We have to drill some of it but we should protect most of it and not give the energy companies a carte blanche ticket to do whatever they want. Without a total National energy plan we are lost.

beanman
 
beanman,

you make some great points to a complicated issue, nuclear, breakthrough in bio fuels, etc.

One other factoid.

Perhaps the deer herd that has show the greatest recovery in total increase in deer population in the last 7 or so years in the Entire western United States is the Book Cliffs herd in Eastern Utah. some of the major changes in the Book Cliffs, large fires, a ton of coyote and cougar control work, less cattle grazing, major oil and gas development, and increasing elk and bison herds.

So, to my original post, SFW looks way beyond simple questoins and simple pat answers. The answers to each challange vary, and must be looked at on a case by case basis, and each variable may have a different impact in a different location.

The question needs to be asked of the BLM and Wyoming Game and Fish, why have they not started an aggressive habitat restoration program on a million acres of winter range in the Big Piney, Cokeville, areas ? they have been given the play book with plays that are known to work?


Someone needs to get it done. Aggressive, large scale habitat restoration efforts are more important than "stopping" oil and gas development, along with killing wolves and lots and lots of coyotes.

Don
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-11-07 AT 12:37PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-11-07 AT 12:33?PM (MST)

dkpeay man,

Its easy to site a couple examples of where wildlife and any type of development can co-exist.

The shooting range I used to use in Missoula Montana would have to be shut down from time to time while bighorn sheep grazed in front of the target butts. I still wouldnt qualify that shooting range as a very aesthetically pleasing environment for people and/or the bighorn sheep to enjoy. I dont think I'll be proposing to the MTFWP that they put rifle ranges in all the sheep habitat in Montana.

Same thing here in Wyoming, I've had to wait several times while antelope fed by the shooting range.

I do agree that the solutions to many problems are complex, but typically the more roads, the more access, etc. in any environment you have, the more complex the problems become...and the more expensive the "mitigation" or "fix".

One point you bring up that I totally disagree with is the issue of Wilderness.

Wildlife thrives in most of the wilderness areas in the West, and serious hunters everywhere know it (in particular hunters looking for trophy animals...and more importantly a quality experience). In most wilderness areas natural processes do...and will...accomplish some of the things mentioned by yourself and smokestick that you claim they dont.

I travel extensively in MT, WY, AZ, NV, ID and UT for work and spend in excess of 200 days per year in the field as a Forester. I've worked in the Natural Resource field for 22 years. I've been involved with a few of these issues enough to make qualified statements.

You claim that wilderness study areas and wilderness areas are monocultures...that may be true in some small areas but as a rule not true. In particular on a landscape size scale taking into consideration all wildlife and associated habitats. Wilderness areas are dynamic...constantly changing. Does the change happen fast? In some cases yes (let-it-burn policy in wilderness areas ie: Scapegoat/Bob Marshall Wilderness), in other cases no. Some like drought which is drastically changing habitat and plant succession in large parts of UT and AZ happen much slower. Same with Mountain Beetle outbreaks in many areas of MT, WY, and CO...big-time changes.

Besides that, there is a growing number of hunters who want a wilderness type hunting experience.

I dont want to kill/hunt a 190 sheep in Alberta while coal trucks rumble past. Nor do I care to shoot one at the foot of a rifle range. I also dont want to take a mule deer or antelope sitting on a well pad listening to a compression motor.

I've been down the "compromising" road with the same outcome...I compromise MY public wildlife and MY public lands while the various industries compromise nothing. They take their profits...most the time OUT OF STATE...and in many cases (in particular with mining/oil and gas) OUT OF THE COUNTRY.

What am I and the rest of the U.S. Citizens left with? Roads everywhere, oil and gas pads, multi-million dollar Super fund sites, etc.

Count me out on "compromising" away places like the Rocky Mountain Front in Montana or the Wyoming Range in Wyoming.
 
Guys I really don't think we have anything to worry about. Granted there may be some exploration for oil and gas in the greys river country, but there just isn't any gas or oil there. There were several exploritory wells drilled up Greys River in the 1970's the ones that come to mind are up Murphy Creek, Deadman Creek and Blindbull Creek. Also extensive sisemic studies have been done in the area and have turned up nothing. So I think the only evidence of oil and gas exploration will be a few dry hole markers. The only reason that the oil companies have purchased these leases is to add to their net value to make them more appealing to investors.
 
DK
I know the Bookcliff is doing fine right now, But it was shutdown for what 5 years, You shut down any area in utah for 5 year and it will look good.
 
Plus the Book Cliffs in Utah do not have even close to the type of cold and snow depths that this Wy. range area does..... Alberta has nothing to do with this area of Wyoming..??

This-thread- is starting to take a if SFW wants it and get all the credit vs someone else ( 13 other wildlife/fish groups)doing something for wildlife and habitat is terrible...

Are we not suppose to be 'working together' for wildlife and habitat?

Robb
 

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