Take Back Utah Land - Rally this weekend

Gorilla

Gorilla

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There is a rally for the good guys this weekend in down town Salt Lake City. They are protesting the federal government locking up lands in Utah. They are going to allow all kinds of ATVs and OHVs to ride down main street.

This is one event all that sportsmen and sportswomen need to get invovled with. If you can make it, please attend.

Here is a link to the web site for details.

http://www.takebackutah.org/
 
Given the results of numerous research projects on the negative impact motorized travel has on big game populations, particularly elk, I don't know how any serious hunter could support this organization or effort.

I have spent some time browsing the various motorized recreation groups websites here in Oregon, and cannot find a single instance where they are involved in any type of conservation or habitat improvement projects. Nor do those websites do much to promote ethical use, or a do-no-damage approach to public lands. I would guess the same would be true of these groups in Utah, although I have not looked at their websites. Hopefully I am wrong about that.

It is unfortunate that organizations such as the Cattlemen's Association and Farm Bureau have signed on to this. I know a number of Cattle Ranchers here in Oregon who are completely fed up with the antics of the ATV crowd, both on putlic land where thy hold grazing rights, and on their own property. I am amazed that SFW would be a part of that. They need to spend a little less time raising money, and a little more time getting current on what is happening across the west due to the expansion of motorized travel, and it's impact on the environment and big game populations and distribution.

Okay, I am done ranting, let me have it.

Scoutdog
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-06-09 AT 04:56AM (MST)[p]Scoutdog your and idiot, this rally is not just for OHV but what is happening is the government is trying to turn all public land into wilderness area, shut down roads and this will kick cattlemen off of public land. There will be no camping with trailers, this is a very serious issue, if people want to continue to use public property as it currently is then they need to join the rally. This is a big environmental push to get the public off of public ground.
 
scoutdog, I have to disagree with you about game populations and motorized vehicles. Motorized vehicles have been riding around on public lands for a hundred years and during that time animal populations have experienced many up hill as well as down hill trends. High fenced game farms use vehicles and the numbers are not hurt by vehicles. Ranchers have cattle on BLM land where vehicles are allowed and cattle populations have never been hurt by the amount of vehicles coming accross the land. Game populations are down hill because of mismanagment by the people we pay to keep them in good shape. If you make a law such as ATV's cannot drive off of designated roads then you have to enforce it with police enforcement. If you shut down the roads you still have to enforce that law also.
Also, the ATV clubs here in the Elko, Nevada area do road repair work on a volunteer basis without the help of the Forestry Department. They are also the biggest preachers about driving only on designated roads.
I am a backpack hunter and owne horses and I used to think that closing down the roads would be a good thing but now I feel like it is just another way for the Federal government to take something away from us. They are taking away ammo and guns, tax you to death in every direction imaginable, taking away private bussiness, forcing the wolf on us and probably the grizzly one day, and now they want to take public roads. I say to you Utah people, DON'T GIVE THE GOVERNMENT AN INCH!!!!!! Get out and fight to keep what is yours. In the long run I feel that the roads are gonna be closed no matter what we do but don't go down without a fight. fatrooster.
 
I agree with scoutdog, no informed big game trophy hunter should be supporting an effort like this. The proliferation of motorized vehicle access due to the recent explosion of ATV popularity has had a tremendously negative impact on the age class of male deer and elk across western public lands. This is undeniable.

-RPinenut
 
Lockup and restrictive control of all federal lands by the BLM and those greenies who control them via lawsuits is in reality all about power and control by a few most of us would consider elitists. Their ideas do not consider the effective and proven multi-use management that has served generally very well through the years. ORV use is just one small aspect of the overall issue, but if given the agenda they want to ultimately see imposed on all federal lands, I can guarantee you that if allowed to have their way, you'll find yourself someday putting in for a draw to just go hiking out there. And whatever you do, don't take a leak while your there or its the slammer for you mi amigo. My two cents ... but then again, I've been on the receiving end of some of their idiocy and mismanagement in times past.
 
Who are the good guys? I know some "good guys" that will ride trails that are open yet blow right by a wallow you are sitting over and not think twice. They aren't breaking the law but they aren't courteous either. I am one that has feelings going both ways. I don't want to see the government get control over any more than they do right now but I for one, would vote for seasonal closures to roads and trails. I have never understood the whole closed to 4 wheeler, yet open to dirt bikes thing. So, you would really have to convince me who the good guys are first.


It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
Don't sit the wallow next to the trail if people bother you. Some dim whit bragged to me about placing logs in the trail with hopes of wrecking the dirt bikers cause they bother his tree stand sitting. I know you know the wallow too. It's up 5th. The trail is legal and open for bikes. If your hunt is messed up because of a legal road or trail...sorry but find a new place to sit. I would try to avoid messing you up...but if everybody else want togo for a ride, more power to them. My recreation is no more important than yours.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-06-09 AT 02:53PM (MST)[p]I 100% agree with you Sneek, your recreation is very much as important as mine. All I am saying is there are some that would be in favor of some seasonal closures. Me personall, I don't mind walking a mile into an area to hunt. I don't mind hunting with or around other hunters. It's as much their area as mine. I just don't want to be lumped with the tree huggers because I wouldn't mind seeing some trails closed completely to ALL motorized vehicles. I also agree that most people would be considerate if they knew other were hunting there. I know the trail and stand you are talking about but the one I am talking about is not up 5th. I don't hunt that one anymore for that reason alone. That's exactly why I would be in favor of seasonal closures. People think that because the bottom trails are open that all of the side trails are too. This stand is NOT on a standard trail but the Forest/BLM say they can't and won't enforce it because there is so much gray area up there. Seasonal closures would be good. Go ahead and use them up to Labor Day. After that, walk or ride a horse until hunting season is over with. Am I really being that unreasonable?

It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
I was one too many. I bought a two wheeler for those trails. I've yet to take mine on one. I would rather walk. But there are way more non hunters that would rather ride. Seasonal closures...I think you are asking a bit much. Once the season is over....it's New Years Eve!
 
Here's an idea; why can't the prison help be put to good use by using them for labor to work on the trails. Everybody says that a 4x4 post in the middle of the trail won't stop anyone. Get some workcrews up there to haul in logs, rock, whatever to keep the side trails closed. Here's the real problem... The guys that want to ride the trails will stay on the trails. The guys that want go bajaing will do it regardless of what anyone else wants. A big problem it that some peopl don't know where they can and can't ride. The young kid that hopes on dads honda just want to go for a zip in the hills. Next thing you know, he finds a trail that's not properly marked, heads down it, stops to take p break, then BAM! Some whack-jos tune him up. Bad deal.

Actually, we don't need to worry about, I'm sure Washington will reform this issue too.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-06-09 AT 03:29PM (MST)[p]Talk about SPIN!

Where did, all of a sudden, deer and elk quit breeding due to motorized vehicle usage? That statement is, quite posibly be the dumbest thing that has been posted on this site ever.

That is a stretch of the wildest immagination......and any hunter or outdoorsman who drinks THAT kool-aid can just stay away from me. How can you possibly fill out your own deer tag application?

That study probably came from the same group that found that condors drink antifreeze, boiled out of vehicles, on the dirt roads in the so.Ca mountains.

I don't own a quad or a dirtbike, but I do own 3 4x4's and when the Government tells me that the roads we have been using for a hundred years, are all of a sudden going back to "wilderness", it pisses me off. There's plenty of wilderness......leave it that way.

That's like Madonna, announcing that after tomorrow, she will be a Virgin again.

NOW I know why they have to put labels on hair dryers so people won't use them in the shower!
 
I will tell you this....

There are some ATV/Motorcycle clubs here in western Colorado that do a very fine job at maintaining both trails,trash,losers and wildlife.

I have been riding these trails for alot of years and can definately see a big difference.The Gov. wanted to close these trails a few years ago and make them roadless,but with the cooperation of these clubs,the BLM and National Forest everyone can still enjoy the landscape no matter what your activity as long as you follow the rules.

I do not belong to any of these groups but have seen the difference they make.

My .02 worth
 
SORRY----but I just can not patronize some.....let us say....yet another Self Serving GoofBall that Hides his/her Name on the Profile....and comes up with some worthless event to support.

Take plenty of bananna's Ape Boy..........

Robb
 
Oddly enough, I agree with everybody. We have enough wilderness, we shouldn't be closing more roads, excess "motor vehicle use" does negatively affect wildlife and hunting experience, and the federal government should stay out of our business.

Now what?

Grizzly
 
That pretty much nails it down for me except Grizz. I do think there is a difference between trails and roads though. I think we are all going to sacrifice a little here and there to maintain a happy medium. I for one hate to see the government get any more control over our resources but their knee jerk reaction is almost always related to a very small percentage of idiots that don't obey the laws and are not considerate of other peoples enjoyment of the outdoors.

It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
This event is not so much about atv use as it is about local, state control. Wether you agree with atvs, wilderness, or seasonal closures, those decisions should be made for Utah, by Utah. NOT THE OVERGOWN FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. That is what the rally is about. Local control.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-06-09 AT 07:01PM (MST)[p]Local control-wise use, its stupid to even answer this but the only reason you can enjoy much of your public land is because its federally owned, the states sell it off, let it be overrun by livestock, let it get dominated by special interests. In Wyoming where I live, you cannot legally camp overnight on state owned lands, In Nevada they sold the lands given to them by the federal government decades ago, thats why there are no state owned parcels in Nevada. No, I thank the almighty for my federally owned lands, and all the freedoms they provide me with. You lunatics can toot your horns all you want, some of us know better.
 
I have to agree with scoutdog on this one. Numerous studies show the increased OHV use in the west has had huge negative impacts on mule deer populations. I will try and dig up a few studies and post them for you to read.

I sat on the DWR committee on OHV use here in Utah, it is a FACT that unless OHV users start policing themselves they WILL lose access to a whole lot of public land. The Forest Service, BLM, and State agencies are getting immense pressure to ban OHV's altogether on public lands. Bad behavior by so-called sportsmen just adds fuel to the fire. I own/use OHV's, but I see tracks in areas OHV's have no business going nearly every time on the hills.

PRO
 
Well, looks like the pot is stirring, so I better back up my statements.
Research done throughout the west over the past several years is painting a clear picture of the negative impact excessive motorized travel can have on big game populations. This is not limited to ATV?s by the way. Here are the facts.

1. A controlled study done at Starkey Experimental Forest conclusively showed that elk will relocate when two motorized vehicles travel within 8/10th of a mile of their location within a 24 hour period. In many cases, that relocation will be to areas where they are not bothered, but also areas with less beneficial habitat.
2. A recently completed four year study done at Yellowstone concluded that direct predation by wolves on elk is NOT the most serious impact wolves are having on elk populations. Due to wolf activity, elk herds have permanently relocated to safer areas, which are far less nutritious. In late spring, cows are unable to build the reserves necessary to complete the birthing cycle, with many calves being aborted, reabsorbed, or born weak with low birth rates, which impacts their ability to survive in their first year. The authors state that this factor is the primary cause of cow/calf ratios being below 20/100 over the past several years, a far more serious long term problem for the future of these herds than the direct predation by wolves of elk on the same populations. The study was conducted over four years, on four different elk herds, and involved the collection and evaluation of 1200 separate samples taken to determine the reproductive health of cows in the population. As far as I know this is one of the largest sampling research projects ever undertaken; most involve less than 100 subjects.
3. The idea that road densities today are comparable to those 100 years ago is ludicrous. I have not spent a lot of time in Utah, so won't speculate there, but in Oregon, the road densities on public land at the end of World War 2 were less than 1 mile of road/5 miles of area. Today, those ratios in most of Oregon?s Federal land (excluding wilderness), exceed 3.0 miles of road/1 mile of area. With few exceptions, all of these roads are open year round, except for periods of snow, and the amount of use is rapidly increasing, particularly in late spring. The large increase in road building occurred primarily in the 70?s and 80?s, and coincides almost exactly with the 30 year decline in mule deer that continues in Oregon.
4. It is certainly true that there is an organized effort to increase the amount of wilderness in the West. I am not aware of ANY organized or unorganized effort by environmental groups to close roads on public land outside of wilderness areas. The truth is that the Forest Service in Oregon actually has management plans that require them to close Class 1 roads that are not maintained, but, due to lack of funds, none of them are ever closed. It is also true that Congress has mandated that all public lands develop a new travel management plan that will go from an ?open unless closed by rule ? model to a ?closed unless open by rule? model. I have been involved with the process for the Ochoco National Forest plan development, and under the most restrictive option, it would be difficult to get 2 miles from an open road, except in the Wilderness or designated roadless areas. In addition, there will be a substantial increase in areas open to ATV use, and trail systems will be developed for their use. One forest service employee admitted to me that this part of the plan will have a negative impact on deer and elk populations, but they will likely do it anyway, due to public pressure from the motorized access community, and the availability of funds through the Oregon Parks Dept

It is becoming increasingly clear that big game populations need to have access to prime habitat areas during key parts of the year without interference from outside sources, whether they be predators or humans. Most Big Game depts. have done a reasonable job of providing that protection on winter ranges. Unfortunately, it is apparent that the same level of protection needs to be extended to the late spring early summer period, and the tremendous increase in public use of these lands during that time makes it extremely difficult.

Scoutdog
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-07-09 AT 05:03AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Aug-07-09 AT 04:58?AM (MST)

BS, starky is about as big of joke as yellowstone. those elk sure are wild when in the park huh? its pretty tuff to close in to 50 yards on foot.

I could dig up pictures of a care taker feeding the elk at starky from his hand too.


if anything atv's may make hunters more successful, i'm not talking about size, but numbers. that is then a tag # issue. do you want everything wilderness? thats what the libs want, once they get that they will work on banning hunting, cuz what better place than all the new wilderness for re-inroduction of indangered species?

the LE units like the Henry's or any LE elk unit sure are hurting from moterized travel eh? the uinta's should be cranking out some monsters with your mentality.

this is not to say i am against closing roads, you could close 3/4 of them and i wouldnt care. but to wish for wilderness is foolish IMO.
 
http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/cms/hunt/MDI/newsletter_feb07.pdf

"As a mule deer hunter, why should this increasing trend in OHV use matter to you? Simply put, increased access to our wildlands influences the number of mule deer that we have and your opportunity to hunt them. That is because increased human activities influence how effectively mule deer can use available habitat; and thereby influences reproduction, fawn survival, buck vulnerability and ultimately deer numbers."

"Many species of wildlife, including mule deer, are displaced from habitats adjacent to roads and motorized trails. In highly motorized areas, the ability of mule deer to make efficient use of otherwise suitable habitat near motorized roads and trails is compromised. The degree of displacement varies by type of activity and level of use. Research at the Starkey Experimental Station in Oregon has shown that elk are affected by motorized vehicle use at a distance of ? mile. The effects on mule deer were not as pronounced but deer generally were displaced into habitats that may have been less suitable. Displacement from preferred habitats can affect diet and energy conservation and thus survival and reproduction."

I am at a lose as to how so-called sportsmen can complain about deer quantity/quality and not be willing to look at their own impact on them. Anyone who has been around long enough to remember when ATV trails were non-existent or few and far between, knows that many areas deer could retreat to during high use times are gone. I grew up on the Manti unit, there is nowhere for the deer to go to get away from hunters, as there are ATV trails on every ridge.

PRO
 
well said fatrooster...agree with you 100%....while we're sitting here bickering about ATV's and whether or not to support this cause, the carpet is being pulled out from underneath us and it starts with crap like this.

if sportsmen dont all shake hands, unite and become one we may not have anything left to fight over after the libs and dems get finished passing their new laws

they're not going for the whole pie at once they're going to take small pieces here and there until they have the whole thing

all you have to do is study Australia's history over the last 20 or so years and how they got their hunting rights and guns taken away and it'll scare the sh#$ outta you



obama-joker-poster-mod.jpg
 
I have to side with AWLB on this issue.
I hate the idea of giving the Gov. more power, that was not the intended purpose of the gov. But there are roads/ATV trails in the botom of most canyons, and on the tops of most ridges. If you see a great place you would like to hike into- why hike when you can drive? There are few places in Utah where one can get miles and miles away from roads.
There is not one person on this site that can argue that the hunting is usually better the farther one gets away from roads.
I would love to see seasonal road closures in certain areas.
Its the same old story that everyone on here has heard- but EVERY year we see people on ATVs where they are not supposed to be. The best is when you spend hours hoofing it into a no ATV spot, just to have wheelers already there. Or people camping down closed roads in the middle of your big bucks basin.

I like the idea of having signs saying you can ride there- if there are no sings, it means you can't ride there. The opposite of what they do now. No one could use the excuse -"What sign?" I also think it might help in the distruction of signs as well.
 
Awholelottabull- If you cant respond to whats being talked about, and comment on the post, maybe you should just keep it to yourself.
 
Piper - right up to the point you made this statement, "You lunatics can toot your horns all you want, some of us know better." I was actually agreeing with you. But, as usual, you open up your big fat keyboard and get in trouble again. I thought this was a pretty civilized conversation. Like I said, hike up that dress and get on outta here boy!


It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
The reality is that most of what has been said on this subject is true on both sides. The point is not that there aren't some issues with ATVs and hunting.
The sad reality is that we live in a political world and sometimes you have to find allies in areas which you aren't tickled about.
In World War II the U.S. allied with the Soviet Union to defeat Hitler. It wasn't because the U.S. loved Stallon or was unaware of the atrocities he was doing in his own country. It was because it was becoming extremely evident that Hitler would not be defeated without Soviet support.
The same is true with ATVs and hunters. There are issues, major ones for many. But we have bigger problems right now. We need to unite as outdoorsmen/women against the animal rights and extreme environmentalists whenever we can.
To do otherwise in my mind would be similar to allowing Hitler to take over the world because we were unhappy with Stallon.
If we as outdoorsmen/women don't put our differences aside on some things and unite against our common enemies, we will be sitting in front of our computers reminiscing about the good old days when we could actually do something besides admire our public grounds from a distance.
Were there consequences of allying with the Soviet Union? Yes. There was the Cold War and a split Germany. But if you honestly think we weren't better of than allowing Hitler to rule the world, I say your nuts.
Let's put our differences aside when we need to and focus on the real enemies. The day that ATV use is a hunters biggest enemy will be a happy day for me. At that point I would love to see a knock down drag out fight between hunters and ATV users. Until then, we are shooting ourselves in the foot. To say otherwise is extremely naive.
 
ATVs negatively impact wildlife. Period. You can argue that you do not care. You can argue other rights are at risk and that trumps the health of the head. Any herd that gets pushed into less suitable habitat and is stressed will have higher mortality rates and lower birth rates. ATVs and the associated noise push herds around.
 
so a the heard in say the flat tops wilderness is better off than the gunnison/ eagle/ white river heards?

the uinta wilderness better than the bookcliffs, cache?

the books roadless area out produces the roaded area?

the gila wilderness is better than the non gila wilderness?

the Bob marshall wilderness is better than the bitteroot valley?

the Ruby wilderness are better than shell creeks?

let me answer that

NO
NO
NO
NO
NO
number of liberal college students used in this study =0

number of granola crunching DOI employee's used in this study =0

tax payer money used in this study = 0

time invested = about 5 minuits.


come on here and spin it pro, go ahead and say it isnt any good because the habitat is different.

remember before you say that, its different in starky and yellowstone too.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-07-09 AT 08:49PM (MST)[p]HUNTERS AND FISHERMEN BETTER WAKE UP!!!

We need all the allies we can get. In CA they are getting ready to lose some of their most productive ocean fishing there is.

We may not be moto cross riders, mountain bikers, quad riders, boaters, jet skiers, hound hunters, trappers, gold miners or even fisherman, but,
WE SHARE THE SAME ENEMIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There is a very vocal, politically active, well funded group of people out there that do not want any of the above mentioned groups using public land.

They will take us out one at a time. They go after the least publicly acceptable activity like trapping or hunting bears with dogs and they go from there.
They will take the forests even from the mountain bikers when they are done. You can count on it.

Every one needs to pull their heads out and their noses out of the air and support those that share the forests, lakes and oceans with us.

All you guys with your BS reasoning and how you dont like this group using the woods or that group. You are the guys that are going to screw it up for the rest of us with your "well thought out arguments"

Wake the hell up and see the writing on the wall and support any group that uses the wilderness and extend a hand to them so that they will support you.

If you cant hold your nose to do it, dont poison the others that are willing to . Keep your stupid pie holes shut. You will be the ones that will lose what some of us live to do with you stupidity.

Sorry, but, I feel real strongly about this.
 
I do NOT advocate taking away access to public lands by any stretch of ones imagination. What I am saying is; it is inane to assert that OHV use has no impact on wildlife. OHV's have gained popularity big time in the last 10-15 years. That is okay, IF we conduct ourselves with some common sense and reason. I also see no reason why limiting where/when heavy OHV usage takes place on public land can't/shouldn't happen w/o the cries of the sky is falling and all our access in being taken away. I am 100% against increased wilderness area(s), but I am 100% for taking a look at where/how we can give critters places to escape constant human activity. That should be the wish of every sportsman who wants to protect and enjoy wildlife in wild places.

As I mentioned before, I sat on the OHV committee where we looked at ways to decrease OHV's abusing public lands. It is a very real threat that if we as sportsmen who enjoy OHV's don't get our shizzle together we WILL see OHV access taken away more and more. The US Forest Service, the BLM, and Utah State Lands are under intense pressure to completely ban OHV's from public land. If we don't stand together and rein in the morons abusing the lands we all will pay the price. You can be part of the solution or part of the problem, that is up to each of us to decide which we will be. Saying we should all stand together even we some are hurting us all makes little/no sense. Instead, call out those abusing the lands, and stand with those willing to be good stewards of the lands we all enjoy.

PRO
 
I've been a lurker for quite some time but after reading this thread I couldn't take it anymore, i needed to speak my piece.
1. I am as conservative a human bieng as one can be
2. I am an ATV ownere
3. I support some road closures
Reading through this thread I began to laugh as I envisioned the round table of tree huggers and Libs drawing up there master plan to screw us over..

one guy in birkenstocks looks over to another guy drinking chai tea and says "first we'll go after bear hunting with dogs, then we'll get trapping, then we'll turn backcountry hunters against atv'rs, before you know it, we'll own all there guns, land, houses, bathrooms, vehicles, and children. Then we'll teach there children about our tree hugging ways and our army will grow"

I know this is a little excessive but I swear i honestly believe this is what some of you think. I agree with those of you that said seasonal road closures are the way to go but I also understand the side of the ones that would not want any closures at all because it would affect their recreation. I believe everyone is entitled to their opinion and should defend it proudly, if you want to go to the rally, by all means saddle up and go, if you don't agree with it, don't, period.

Now for those of you that are convinced you are the most knowledgeable of the bunch because you can name off mountain ranges, or those of you that like to point the finger at management agencies while you continue to type from your couch as the volunteer projects go on all over the place, or those of you who are first to criticize yet offer no plausible solutions to any of the problems, please give it a rest.

Its lonely at the top.... just the way I like it.
 
Pro, I agree with most your posts.

That being said, dont lump the lawbreakers in with the overall group.

OHV groups will never advocate lawbreakers. We cant talk about a group referring to those that do not obey the laws.

It is like those groups or individuals in those groups referring to the poachers (which there are plenty) when they are talking about hunters.

We need to find a way to share the forests and recruit these other groups help to fight our common enemies.
 
Agreed, my point is some seem to suggest calling the abusers out is selling out the rest of the OHV users. I use OHV's, I am NOT anti OHV, but unless we get serious about policing ourselves there will be little to fight over since it will be all taken away.

I also find it strange that those who are convinced oil/gas sites hurt wildlife populations, yet are quick to dismiss the idea that increased OHV use hurts wildlife populations as well.

I would like to see OHV groups set up something like the poaching hotlines, an increase in fines to abuses, closure of many trails during certain times of the year where/when warranted, when an area has OHV usage restricted open up more areas like 5 mile pass for people to enjoy public land with less impact on wildlife.

PRO
 
Everyone please read post #32. Read it slowly and think hard about it. Let it sink in because its right on the money. It aint abot ATVs its about our(OUR)public lands. ITs so much bigger than any one group of users or the animals that inhabit the land.
 
I think were all on the same page actually.

I am just strongly against more wilderness, not because i am lazy, but because i think it will screw us in the future.
 
Just so I am perfectly clear here, I do not believe America needs another inch of dirt road access and would not favor a new off road area.

That being said, I do not believe America needs another square inch of wilderness either.
 
so many wild comments' there are going to be more dirt roads in the future, thats the way it is, the need for resources is one reason, there is going to be more wilderness, because there are many areas, where WSA.s hang in limbo, thats a decision for all Americans, which are the owners of public lands, to decide. I understand many of you believe in conspirasy theorys, most don't know what a WSA is. some think the good ol boys running local politics can manage the land just the way they want them to, and some cant even read maps. so I guess some of us should just be thankful that we once had people like Teddy Roosevelt, and more recently like Stewart Udall. because the dumbing down of America is quite an amazing thing.
 
"because the dumbing down of America is quite an amazing thing."

The 2008 election proved you are right.
 

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