Trying to learn about hunting with 13 YO son

[computerguy]

LAST EDITED ON Aug-12-16 AT 04:12AM (MST)[p]Jagerdad has graciously introduced me, and you folks have very warmly welcomed me. Thank you all.

I don't want to reveal too much personal information, but I have to let loose that we live in the SoCal area. I've been thinking for awhile that guided hunts are the way for us to get started--sort of paying a guide for the education I never got when I was a kid. Even though I was a midwest small town and country boy and I got my first gun when I was 12, my dad was not a hunter. I still got to grow up wondering country dirt roads, fields and creeks plinking with a BB gun.

In my military career I served with guys who were hunters that I could have learned from, but when I wasn't deployed, I was focused on cars and girls, and later on completing my formal education.

I have so many questions, but I'll limit myself to just a couple here:

1. How can I evaluate a particular hunting guide, and does anyone have any experience with or knowledge of the guy whose company is listed here on MM when I search for guides? (Western Wildlife Adventures, http://www.monstermuleys.com/guides/caguide.html)

2. If ten guys answer I suspect I'll get ten different answers to a question like this, so I think what I'm really looking for is food for thought. I am wondering what rifle would be appropriate for a 13 YO boy for hunting deer and possibly elk? He's no wimp after several years of different martial arts (kickboxing, Ju Jitsu, Karate, Kung Fu). But he is getting soft from too much time playing video games!

I wouldn't put a Mosin Nagant, Mauser or a 30-06 in his hands just yet. He can handle an AR very well, but that's too small for deer.

Along with this, is there anyone here who may have such a rifle for sale, or that you just realized you might want to sell?

To this I will add that I have been looking for an excuse to add a lever gun to my safe since I don't own any yet. I had a 30-30 in mind, but I have been torn over .357, 30-30 or .44 Mag. Jagerdad suggested a .44 Mag. Of course one LGS owner here says "Get all three!" I have quite an assortment of rifles and handguns and shotguns and more calibers than I can shake a stick at, but I don't have anything in any of those calibers.

Thank you

"Darth Vader was a sap"

 

[Tristate]

.243 is a fantastic all around caliber even for mule deer. Good luck.

 

[mntman]

for your kid with deer and elk in mind, I'd lean to a 270 or something around that, maybe 30-06 if he is a bigger kid. like you said you ask 10 guys, you will get 11 answers...

Problem with a .243 is they are questionable for elk. Yes they can kill them however, you will need to be perfect on every shot. I have a.243, it was my first rifle. Got it when I was 12 however I only hunted whitetails with it in MN.

Basically let your kid shoot the biggest round he can without flinching from the recoil.

With that in mine specific models of guns will kick harder than others with exact same round. No idea how it can happen but it does. I took home 5 different 300 win magnums one day when I was shopping for a used rifle. All without scopes, just to get a feel for how they fired. Some I only shot once due to the strong recoil, others I shot 10+ times with no issues. I obviously bought one of the guns with less recoil.


Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"

 

[BeanMan]

Lever gun? My Wife loves her Browning BLR in 243 (and has killed a few cow elk with it). Her Father has it's mate in 308.

 

[feddoc]

Don't negate the AR-15 platform for hunting deer.

You can get an upper in 6.8SPC or .300 blackout.


If you go with AN AR-10 variant, caliber choice includes .308, .243, .260 Rem, 7mm-08 Rem, .308 Win and .338 Federal.

 

[Jagerdad]

Tristate.... I will jump in and say, insofar as Computerguy & Professions; He is capable of many top end White Collar Positions. Neither he nor I can say everything.

If I did not believe the two of you would argue from sun-up to sun-set (Politics), I would say; Invite him to S/E Texas for a Father/Son Hunt. Another option is tell him of Private land Hunts in Western Texas.

He's a big boy and can pick States himself but I would pick New Mexico/Idaho as 1st then Utah/Wyoming/Colorado as 1st's also. I just wrap myself around a fence post with all of those States being a #1 pick.

A Major topic I can not speak on is "Modern Clothing's and Packs". Possibly someone here in Campfire can ramp up such a discussion on clothing, etc.. (Gear) that would help a Father understand such matters.

A Man like Computerguy who, simply via "my advice" & trust in MM'eys campfire folks has joined. I see no reason not to roll out the Red Carpet giving everything we, as a small family, may offer.

Jagerdad

 

[eelgrass]

Hunter safety course is the first place to start if you haven't already, as most if not all states require it before they will issue a hunting license. Some sporting good stores or your fish and wildlife office can tell you specific places and times hunter safety courses are available.

I can't offer any specific choices because I've never hunted there but Texas would be a good choice to get started if you're after big game (deer sized). No tag/license drawing issues, no special clothing needed because of the milder weather. Not physically demanding, usually.

If you or he decide you like it you can get more involved with the different States.

 

[computerguy]

Absolutely Hunter's Safety. I got mine in my home state in 1973, and my son and I both got new ones in CA last October.

Thank you!



"Darth Vader was a sap"

 

[Soj51hopeful]

Computerguy just book a pig hunt with those guides you mentioned and evaluate them yourself. Pig hunts are fun and year around. That would be a perfect jump off point. I won't get into rifles as all the above post advice would work well on hogs, I will also add a shotgun with buckshot if they run pigs with dogs. I don't know anything about western wildlife adventures but guided hog hunting is usually a very high success rate. Also Wild pig meat is great! Good luck, glad to see southern ca hunters.

 

[computerguy]

LAST EDITED ON Aug-12-16 AT 02:59PM (MST)[p]I can answer why one gun will kick harder than another. It's pure physics. The reason it kicks at all, but a bazooka does not, is Newton's Third Law: For every action, there is an equal and opposite REACTION. The bullet is driven in one direction down the barrel, and leaves the barrel with a given amount of energy. That energy can also be called momentum, which can be calculated as mass of the bullet X the velocity of the bullet. Because of the great speed, it is going to impact with the force of a sledgehammer.

That expanding had from the powder charge burning also exerts a force that pushes backward on the firearm. This is also called recoil. Every gun has a certain mass of its own. The definition of mass is resistance to acceleration. Recoil is technically acceleration in the direction of your shoulder. So in simpler terms, the heavier the gun, or the more mass it has, the less recoil you're going to feel.

A bazooka doesn't kick because the rocket round exhausts out the back. Otherwise it would likely throw the operator into the next county.

A gunner firing a mounted .50 cal machine gun doesn't feel the recoil, because the mount enlists the mass of whatever it's mounted to. Now upscale this to something like the A-10 "Warthog" and its 30 mm gatling cannon produces a recoil of 10,000 lbs force, which is greater than the output of its twin jet engines. But the gun fires for only short bursts, so the plane slows by only a few MPH.

Back to your .300 WinMag, the same amount of energy was transferred to the gun regardless which one. But it's you go back to the formula for momentum and correct for mass, you'll see that the gun with less mass will accelerate MORE toward your shoulder, and you will feel more recoil.


"Darth Vader was a sap"

 

[Tristate]

Jagerdad,

I think you have misunderstood my question. I asked his profession because there are certain areas of the country which are better to live in if you are in a certain field. My question was based on him getting red carpet treatment.

 

[computerguy]

Hmmm... I have a lower just taking space in the safe and I've been wanting to build a .300 Blackout due to its subsonic but hard hitting capability.

But I have a friend who's a former Marine who raves about his AR-10 in .308/7.62 NATO.

At the same time we have such draconian laws on the AR platform in this state, and Moonbeam just signed a new restriction intended to ban them completely...




"Darth Vader was a sap"

 

[Jagerdad]

Dear Tristate

I did not misread or not understand your question and also its foundation as to career centers based on a denoted Doctorate, PhD or common Career classification(s). With all my Respect towards You (Tristate), there are some positions, past or present wherein mentioning such on the Internet is not proper. In addition, Computerguy has knowledge's of States and Careers. Plus, he is not seeking such help.

Therefore, for me to be polite to both You & him, I just say such data is not Germain to learning to Hunt Big Game with a Young Son.

I'm getting off base slightly but Tristate, I believe you have very high levels of the topic to offer and, in your own manner, you seem to be a wonderful guy. But not all wonderful guy's will have personalities that blend afield. That's all I was saying.

If you are as I believe; A Model 70 aficionado then by all means, pray tell why (to Computerguy) and maybe mention Pre 64's

Soj51hopefull, You are spot-on ref a Pig Hunt. I have suggested such also. Yet the mentioned outfitter service sounded like a Booking Agent. I don't yet know but there are many Pig guides all through the State and I hope he gets connected with at least one.

The TYPE of Hunting I believe he & Son will find most rewarding is Mule Deer & Elk. All Fathers must acquire advice and then have time for such a trip. I feel the best first few trips would be with a Guide with Horses or with someone here in Campfire that coaches him from PM's then email/phone. That may happen in time.

If there is a Guide reading this, consider jumping in and posting the items you may offer.

Jagerdad

 

[computerguy]

One other data point is that a few years ago when there was no ammo to be had anywhere, the one caliber that I saw on the shelf everywhere I went, was 270. That told me I should probably get one, but so far I have not...

Just for illumination, I'm also working on clearing out my garage so that I can set up my reloading press and bullet casting pot. I'm also building a press to extrude lead wire.

So I will soon be casting and reloading my own. I have a 90+ YO next door neighbor who has many years of casting and reloading experience, and has already been intrigued by my first scrap melting session and is itching to mentor me getting started.

I know that will make Jagerdad tickled pink when I finally get my feet wet in reloading too!


"Darth Vader was a sap"

 

[SlinginLead]

Glad to see a fellow So Cal hunter....we are a dying breed in these parts! IMHO, a .270 or a 30.06. would be fine. I won a Winchester Pre-64 Classic with a Boss break system one year at a RMEF banquet. At the time, my son was 13 years old. He took 3 mule deer and one pig in the years shortly after. The calibers will also handle elk just fine.

 

[Jagerdad]

There Yah go Computerguy, ...maybe PM slinginglead to show you how to join the So Cal Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation (RMEF) group.

 

[theox]

Welcome!
270 is a great all around cartridge with fair recoil. 243 great for deer marginal at best for elk but little recoil.
Many calibers in between.

I don't know what you have but I would suggest dumping some cash into optics!
Good pair of binos is a must! Spend more than u can afford! (No Walmart specials!)
Like spend as much as you can! The more u pay the better they are generally
Swarovski zeiss and Leica are top notch
Vortex are good but Definently a step down but they have a wide variety and most vortex are good for avg hunter

As far as guides go. It's not a bad idea especially if ur hunting out of state etc.

Good luck!

Don't overlook an antelope hunt. They are a good hunt to get ur feet wet on.
Check out cwmu units in Utah to buy a tag.

Go with the 30-30 lever.